Beauty and the Beast Discussion

[JeanGreyForever]

There's a thread dedicated to appearances by Disney characters at the Academy Awards. In this post by Sotiris you can find a lot of these appearances. I had never seen some of them, like the first of Mickey and Donald or the one of the A Bug's Life characters, and I had forgotten about others.

Thanks for posting all those! I forgot about Edna Mode and didn't realize so many Pixar characters got Oscar representation.

[nomad2010]

I'm a graphic designer by profession. Posting this here because this issue doesn't effect just one release anymore. The restoration on this movie has bothered me since it's initial release. People can't seem to realize what the issues are, and I've always wanted to draw a little attention to it, so I've created a few comparisons from the current restoration and the IMAX trailer. Many love to criticize the VHS colors for possibly being faulty, but you can't argue with the digital IMAX trailer which has the exact same colors.

Most of my argument surrounds the whites in the scenes. If you notice, there is no pure white in any shot anymore. No animator, designer, etc. would ever eliminate the color white entirely from a shot. But as you can see, the restoration removes all white, adding a pink hue over everything. Interestingly enough, the blues in the stairway scene are untouched with the exception of Beast's coat. Almost as if they did two separate layers of alterations... one to the characters and one to the background. It's far more obvious the enchanted objects, though Belle's dress's highlights now being yellow are another perfect example. I understand the color scheme for this movie was very 90's. But altering it... taking away the brilliance and the contrast is a disgrace. I don't have a lot of faith in Disney to ever fix this, but the damage that has been done to the artists work is a disaster, and I feel terrible for anyone who poured their hearts and souls into this film for the alterations that have been made.

I hope this provides a little bit of clarification to those who have never understood just how much has changed and why it's important for it to be fixed.

[Farerb]

Disney does have a correct master but they never released it on home media, just in cinemas. I just hope the 4K will give us the proper representation of the film. Otherwise I'm sticking with the laserdisc forever.

[Disney Duster]

Ok, well if you're going to draw attention to the issue, I will draw attention to why it is like it is now. In an interview I should have bookmarked but didn't, sorry, the filmakers said the colors of the restoration that has been on all releases since the Platinum is how they intended the film to look. When they put the film out in its original theatrical run, the colors were darker because they didn't realize how the colors they made on the computers would end up looking on film. So for the future releases they tried to make the film look how they originally intended.

So why do they look darker at the Oscars and in the IMAX trailer? Well, I would say they may have simply not bothered to try to figure out how to get the colors how they intended for the Oscars, and they hadn't had the version with the colors how they intended ready for the IMAX trailer when they made that trailer.

Do I wish we got the original theatrical colors? Yes, I prefer them. But this is the way the film was meant to be seen. And by the way, the highlights on Belle's gown in the original colors, I would say they are very light yellow, not white.

[Farerb]

Ok, well if you're going to draw attention to the issue, I will draw attention to why it is like it is now. In an interview I should have bookmarked but didn't, sorry, the filmakers said the colors of the restoration that has been on all releases since the Platinum is how they intended the film to look. When they put the film out in its original theatrical run, the colors were darker because they didn't realize how the colors they made on the computers would end up looking on film. So for the future releases they tried to make the film look how they originally intended.

So why do they look darker at the Oscars and in the IMAX trailer? Well, I would say they may have simply not bothered to try to figure out how to get the colors how they intended for the Oscars, and they hadn't had the version with the colors how they intended ready for the IMAX trailer when they made that trailer.

Do I wish we got the original theatrical colors? Yes, I prefer them. But this is the way the film was meant to be seen. And by the way, the highlights on Belle's gown in the original colors, I would say they are very light yellow, not white.

Except Don Hahn said the correct colors are the 2D Blu-ray and Gary Trousdale said the 3D colors are the correct ones, and the 2D and 3D have different colors. I tend not to believe Hahn. Sorry. I saw the DCP, its colors are closer to the laserdisc, I pretty much believe that the DCP is sourced from unaltered CAPS files. I do think that the changes to the film were made when they prepared the IMAX edition, even back then, and this is the version we get because it's needed for the seamless branching.

[nomad2010]

Ok, well if you're going to draw attention to the issue, I will draw attention to why it is like it is now. In an interview I should have bookmarked but didn't, sorry, the filmakers said the colors of the restoration that has been on all releases since the Platinum is how they intended the film to look. When they put the film out in its original theatrical run, the colors were darker because they didn't realize how the colors they made on the computers would end up looking on film. So for the future releases they tried to make the film look how they originally intended.

So why do they look darker at the Oscars and in the IMAX trailer? Well, I would say they may have simply not bothered to try to figure out how to get the colors how they intended for the Oscars, and they hadn't had the version with the colors how they intended ready for the IMAX trailer when they made that trailer.

Do I wish we got the original theatrical colors? Yes, I prefer them. But this is the way the film was meant to be seen. And by the way, the highlights on Belle's gown in the original colors, I would say they are very light yellow, not white.

Except Don Hahn said the correct colors are the 2D Blu-ray and Gary Trousdale said the 3D colors are the correct ones, and the 2D and 3D have different colors. I tend not to believe Hahn. Sorry. I saw the DCP, its colors are closer to the laserdisc, I pretty much believe that the DCP is sourced from unaltered CAPS files. I do think that the changes to the film were made when they prepared the IMAX edition, even back then, and this is the version we get because it's needed for the seamless branching.

I’ve seen those before, but I truly think they are just spewing lies through their teeth. There is no way they would remove the whites like that. It’s a matter of white balance. Televisions these days are even calibrated to adjust to the whitest point on screen, but the issue is there is no white anymore. It’s as if an Instagram filter was placed over the entire film. Sure these alterations were made in order for the proper look of the imax release, but this is in no way the preserved look of the film. Those interviews had to be them saving face. Because no animator would ever intend for all white and most of the contrast in their film to disappear.

[Disney's Divinity]

The VHS / IMAX colors are just undeniably more beautiful to me, I can't help it. I especially love how much more shimmery Belle's dress used to be when the lines were white. And Beast's outfit stood out stark in comparison to the rest of the ballroom.

[JeanGreyForever]

Except Don Hahn said the correct colors are the 2D Blu-ray and Gary Trousdale said the 3D colors are the correct ones, and the 2D and 3D have different colors. I tend not to believe Hahn. Sorry. I saw the DCP, its colors are closer to the laserdisc, I pretty much believe that the DCP is sourced from unaltered CAPS files. I do think that the changes to the film were made when they prepared the IMAX edition, even back then, and this is the version we get because it's needed for the seamless branching.

I’ve seen those before, but I truly think they are just spewing lies through their teeth. There is no way they would remove the whites like that. It’s a matter of white balance. Televisions these days are even calibrated to adjust to the whitest point on screen, but the issue is there is no white anymore. It’s as if an Instagram filter was placed over the entire film. Sure these alterations were made in order for the proper look of the imax release, but this is in no way the preserved look of the film. Those interviews had to be them saving face. Because no animator would ever intend for all white and most of the contrast in their film to disappear.

Agreed. The whites have completely disappeared from the entire film. Just look at the opening scene when Belle is reading her book and the pages are light pink in the new restoration but a pristine white in the Laserdisc. The very fact that the makers of the film can't even agree on which restoration has the correct colors (the 2D Blu-Ray or the 3D Blu-Ray) is pretty telling. Honestly, even the 3D colors aren't very accurate but they're worlds apart from the 2D Blu-Ray.

It's a shame that the DCP has never been released especially since Disney still uses that to screen the movie in theaters. I would kill to see it on the big screen the way it was originally intended as well as on my TV screen. If they're really so picky with the colors (I honestly don't believe the nonsense about how the new colors were their original intention all along), then they should use the original colors for the theatrical version to make it actually accurate to the label of being "theatrical" while the new colors can be kept for the Special Edition since that was intended for the IMAX release. The WIP version should very clearly use the theatrical colors. I know I'll probably never watch the Special Edition again if that was the case which is fine by me.

[Disney Duster]

Hm, well I guess I'm going to be kept in perpetual confusion about which are the right colors since you guys make good points but I don't see why they would make lies about such a thing or why they would want the colors changed, unless it's because the original theatrical colors no longer please them, in which case both the original and new colors should be available to us.

[nomad2010]

Hm, well I guess I'm going to be kept in perpetual confusion about which are the right colors since you guys make good points but I don't see why they would make lies about such a thing or why they would want the colors changed, unless it's because the original theatrical colors no longer please them, in which case both the original and new colors should be available to us.

Well it’s just saving face. I wouldn’t even be surprised if they hadn’t seen the restoration. But even if they had, there’s no way they’d comment against it when they were doing publicity for the movie.

There’s just no way they can 1.) be happy with the lack of white 2.) would ever call that color palette intended. It’s just not good design. No person with any knowledge of color theory or any training would approve that. How and why it ever got released in this state is the most confusing thing to me. The ONLY thing I can think is that they were trying to make it look more modern and less classical, as the original palette is not only very 90’s, but it’s also what I would refer to as mature in its sensibilities. It’s not candy colored bright like this new restoration is. It’s subdued and rich. Classic. There’s a reason why Belle and Beast match the original colors on the Oscar broadcast. And also why Belle’s hair isn’t red on any promotion. Heck, even look at the original VHS art.

[Disney Duster]

Oh. Well, I still don't know. I mean, they could still have admitted that they changed the colors just because they changed their minds on how they wanted their film to look. That is allowed and doesn't go "against" the company.

[Mooky]

Wasn't it implied or outright said the reason colors were changed/looked off is because they needed them to match the newly produced "Human Again" sequence? Or am I imagining things?

[Farerb]

Wasn't it implied or outright said the reason colors were changed/looked off is because they needed them to match the newly produced "Human Again" sequence? Or am I imagining things?

I heard too but I never thought it made much sense. What could have happened is that they thought they could "improve" things since I believe the CAPS technology got better overtime.

[Sotiris]

There’s just no way they can 1) be happy with the lack of white 2) would ever call that color palette intended. It’s just not good design. No person with any knowledge of color theory or any training would approve that.

Exactly. There's no way the artists involved with making this movie intended for that effect. I find the mere suggestion of that preposterous. It's such a shame we won't be getting the original colors. They suit the film perfectly. They make it look elegant, classy and pristine whereas that horrible filter makes it look like a cheap Toon Boom production.

[Farerb]

There is still hope. We could still get a proper restoration when the 4K is released. They did have a proper release for the 3D (it has weird yellows and greens but I guess that's because of the 3D effect), and from what I learned (but not sure it's true) Disney did a new master for The Lion King and Aladdin for their 4K releases (that's why there is a "©2018" at the end credits of The Lion King). I wish Beauty and the Beast was the one released first instead of The Lion King since it is in a much more needed restoration.

[D82]

There is no way they would remove the whites like that. It’s a matter of white balance. Televisions these days are even calibrated to adjust to the whitest point on screen, but the issue is there is no white anymore. It’s as if an Instagram filter was placed over the entire film. Sure these alterations were made in order for the proper look of the imax release, but this is in no way the preserved look of the film. Those interviews had to be them saving face. Because no animator would ever intend for all white and most of the contrast in their film to disappear.

Thanks for the comparisons and explanations, nomad2010! I always thought the theatrical version's colors had to be the real ones (they're much more natural and look so much better), but I wasn't 100% sure. However, what you explained about the white balance is the definite proof that the colors of the current restoration are wrong. I really hope they'll give us the correct version someday.

[JeanGreyForever]

There is still hope. We could still get a proper restoration when the 4K is released. They did have a proper release for the 3D (it has weird yellows and greens but I guess that's because of the 3D effect), and from what I learned (but not sure it's true) Disney did a new master for The Lion King and Aladdin for their 4K releases (that's why there is a "©2018" at the end credits of The Lion King). I wish Beauty and the Beast was the one released first instead of The Lion King since it is in a much more needed restoration.

I wish I could be that optimistic but after the Signature Editions of BATB and Cinderella, I just can't see Disney bothering. However, the fact that they did make a new 4K release for The Lion King (has the same been confirmed for Aladdin?) could be a bit hopeful. Even then though, these new 4K masters were still based on the IMAX versions with all the new animation and stuff so I'd be more surprised if BATB didn't use the IMAX version. Only if that occurred would it be likely that we'd get the original CAPS files with the unedited colors.

[nomad2010]

There is still hope. We could still get a proper restoration when the 4K is released. They did have a proper release for the 3D (it has weird yellows and greens but I guess that's because of the 3D effect), and from what I learned (but not sure it's true) Disney did a new master for The Lion King and Aladdin for their 4K releases (that's why there is a "©2018" at the end credits of The Lion King). I wish Beauty and the Beast was the one released first instead of The Lion King since it is in a much more needed restoration.

I wish I could be that optimistic but after the Signature Editions of BATB and Cinderella, I just can't see Disney bothering. However, the fact that they did make a new 4K release for The Lion King (has the same been confirmed for Aladdin?) could be a bit hopeful. Even then though, these new 4K masters were still based on the IMAX versions with all the new animation and stuff so I'd be more surprised if BATB didn't use the IMAX version. Only if that occurred would it be likely that we'd get the original CAPS files with the unedited colors.

There could be a chance simply because 4K means remastering the color always. So I want to believe they’ll really make it right, but I feel like Disney has gotten so lazy with their releases. I wouldn’t be surprised though to see it looking correct on Disney+ eventually though.

[nomad2010]

I’ve never seen this before, and just happened on it tonight. Someone took what looks like an incredible amount of time to redo the colors for the ballroom scene. I won’t say it’s perfect. A tad bit too contrasts, and Belle’s dress doesn’t have its white highlights back. But it’s astonishingly close. Pay attention to the whites, especially the eyes, and the contrast once they get into the ballroom. Beast is back to having full dimensionality again. Belles hair correct. It really shows the true intent. And it changes the entire scene. What I’d give to have this back.


https://youtu.be/8lV341hOEN4

Also a comparison between the VHS, the restoration, and another persons recreation which really shows the differences.

https://youtu.be/kNUoQBbpyT4

[Farerb]

There is this comparison too:
https://youtu.be/Ke3AfbMWrKk