Episode 3: Revenge of the Gays, Are You One Too?

[Goliath]

As for what you said about you being right about certain things and certain things being undeniable...

It is nice, it is nice to believe it's not just opinion and you know the truth and what's right. And you can, we should believe that the good things are right. But someday some of the things you thought were right may be proven wrong. After all, you have not believed all the same exact things your whole life.

You're right with that last sentence. But there *is* a difference. I will always continue to challenge myself -and invite others to challenge me- on topics like politics, current events, interpreting history, art, literature, music, etc. None of the beliefs I currently held on those, and many other, subjects, are set in stone.

But I do drawn the line at some key things I listed above. That's because on all those issues, the jury is out on them. Just because a tiny minority still questions them, doesn't mean that 99% of professionals working in those areas (scientists, researchers, scholars etc.) aren't agreeing on them. Because they are. And you're completely right when you say: "that mght change someday". But we've had that discussion before, and that's just the way science works. We have now a 99% consensus by all the experts on those issues and until that changes, it stands. And I'll stand by it.

As for the last point about cultures: I'm not one to say our Western culture is perfect. Far from that; I think people on this board know about that. I'm not like some populist politicians you see in increasingly more Western countries who declare 'our culture' off-limits for criticism. But I dare anybody to debate me that democracy, equal rights for all people, and freedom of speech is *not* better than dictatorship, no human rights, and censorship (as imperfect as they are in our societies).

[Disney Duster]

Yes, quite right. Well said.

Oh, except for that you said even the majority can be wrong. And sometimes the minority is the only one right and has to prove what's right to the majority. So, that means the 99% thing doesn't mean all that.

[pap64]

I don't know if this has been posted, but this is a great story I know you guys will like.

During a gay pride parade, a Christian group decided to go watch it. But instead of insulting them, they decided to apologize on behalf of the community and spread their words of love and support towards the gay community:
http://www.timschraeder.com/2010/06/30/ ... gay-pride/

This is very uplifting to read. I have personally hated how the religious community have used the word of God and Jesus in order to hate not just the gay community but any minority and community that "defiles" the bible, so its fantastic to see a community that understands this and apologizes for all the bigotry and hatred all apparently under the word of God.

And they were gutsy, too, since there were other Christian communities there to bash the parade, so it could have gotten really messy.

[Margos]

That's excellent news, Pap! Oh, it's so wonderful to see that there are Christians who are truly able to love as Jesus loved, without interpreting the Bible stupidly.

[Khonnor]

Hmzz, okay...

So, I didn't read all of this thread, but...is this like a place where gay people come and talk about....gay stuff and such?

[Margos]

Hmzz, okay...

So, I didn't read all of this thread, but...is this like a place where gay people come and talk about....gay stuff and such?

Pretty much.

[Goliath]

Yes, quite right. Well said.

Oh, except for that you said even the majority can be wrong. And sometimes the minority is the only one right and has to prove what's right to the majority.

How is that wrong? I have provided examples of cases where a minority pushed through reforms which a large majority of the country didn't support, but we now all agree it was right to push them through. Issues like the right of women to vote; civil rights for African-Americans; an end to segregation. Had we always listened to the majority of the people, those issue wouldn't have been solved. Therefore I say that sometimes it's a good thing to ignore the wish of the majority.

So, I didn't read all of this thread, but...is this like a place where gay people come and talk about....gay stuff and such?

And people who aren't gay come here to express support and solidarity.

[ajmrowland]

^That still very much goes on today. and not just gay rights, either.

[Disney Duster]

No, Goliath I was saying then if that means the majority isn't always right, that means even when a minority makes the majority see "what is right", just because the majority now, today, thinks it's right it still doesn't mean it is because of what you said earlier, how the majority doesn't always know what's right even though the majority agrees.

[Goliath]

No, Goliath I was saying then if that means the majority isn't always right, that means even when a minority makes the majority see "what is right", just because the majority now, today, thinks it's right it still doesn't mean it is because of what you said earlier, how the majority doesn't always know what's right even though the majority agrees.

[Goliath]

From the BBC, including video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10630683

15 July 2010 Last updated at 08:40 GMT

Argentine Senate backs bill legalising gay marriage



Argentina has become the first country in Latin America to legalise gay marriage after the Senate voted in favour.

The country's Chamber of Deputies had already approved the legislation.

The vote in the Senate, which backed the bill by just six votes, came after 14 hours of at times heated debate.

The law, which also allows same-sex couples to adopt, had met with fierce opposition from the Catholic Church and other religious groups.

The legislation, backed by President Cristina Fernandez's centre-left government**, passed by 33 votes to 27 with three abstentions.

Outside Congress, as the debate continued into the early hours of Thursday, supporters and opponents of the bill held rival demonstrations.

"Nearly every political and social figure has spoken out in favour of marriage equality," said Maria Rachid, president of the Argentine Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transsexuals.

"And we hope that the Senate reflects this and that Argentina, from today forward, is a more just country for all families," she told the Associated Press.

Ines Frank, from a group called Argentine Families Argentina, said opposition was not discrimination "because the essence of a family is between two people of opposite sexes".

There have been several gay marriages recently in Argentina, some of which were annulled by the Supreme Court, creating a legal controversy.

Civil unions between people of the same sex are legal in Buenos Aires and in some other provinces but there was no law to regulate it on a country-wide level.

Argentina's capital is widely considered to be among the most gay-friendly cities in Latin America. It was the first Latin American city to legalise same-sex unions.

Same-sex civil unions are also legal in Uruguay and some states in Brazil and Mexico, while gay marriage is legal in Mexico City.

** President Christina Fernandez de Kirchner and her husband, former president Nestor Kirchner, have done so many great things for Argentina and its people. They saved the country after the 2001 economic breakdown, set in motion countless initiatives to help the poor, and now they've strongly backed the rights of homosexuals.

I'm a cynic when it comes to politics, but I love these people. To me, they're heroes.

[carolinakid]

Just wanted to let you know that my boyfriend and I will be attending the Epcot Food & Wine Festival on 10/16 which is the "unofficial" Gay Day at the Festival this year. We are spending the week at Universal Orlando and were planning to do a day at the F&W anyway, so when we found out the 16th was Gay Day, we had our date! It's the first time we've been at Disney for any Gay Day so we're really excited about it! Although we've never had any trouble meeting "family" whenever we've been to DL or WDW!

We're looking forward to the Belgium and Korea marketplaces which are new this year and eating and drinking (mostly the latter...love the Prosecco, Margaritas & Parisian Cosmo Slush) our way around World Showcase!

[pap64]

BUMP!

While this isn't Gay related, this DOES deal with the infamous Westboro Hate Group, which openly hate homosexuality (and anything that defiles religion).

The group went to Comic Con to protest...nerds and geeks of all people! It seems that they weren't happy with just tormenting gay people and their relatives during their darkest moments (protesting at a funeral...very classy guys -_-), and now are taking aim at comic book nerds and geeks for the sole fact that "they worship false idols" (which in itself opens a whole can of worms since religion is so ambiguous we may be worshipping the wrong Gods as well...but that's something different altogether).

Well, the nerds weren't going to take that lying down, so they did a counter protest as only they could do...

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/07/2 ... ist-church

Granted, there were some hate signs in there, but it was done in a very fun, humorous manner, along with some sincere efforts in showing that God is all about love, and that nerds love everybody.

The reason I am loving these stories (seriously, I was mad as all hell until I read this article and it made me very happy) is because it truly does show that love, laughter and happiness can defeat anger and hate if done right. Rather than have an angry group attack them, they did their own fun protest and in the end they were the winners (in my eyes at least). They handled it with a fun sense of humor all while realizing that God is all about love and compassion.

So this story combined with the Christian apology group I posted a few pages ago does give me hope that even if anger still has the upper hand in some cases there truly is a lot of love going around, and one day is may truly save the day.

*Extremely corny, I know, but hey, I am a sucker for sentimentality and idealism

[Goliath]

You know what it is? Those hateful people probably realize they're on the losing side of the argument. They know progress has been made and it's never going to go away. It will only progress even further, and they can't handle that thought.

Just look at gay marriage. First it was just that pot lovin', baby-killin', sex-crazed little Holland. Then the list started to grow and grow, and even deeply catholic countries like Spain and recently Argentina (thank you, Christina and Nestor Kirchner!) legalized same-sex marriages. Even some states within the US have acknowledged it, and president Obama is talking about repealing 'Don't ask, don't tell', so that homosexuals can serve openly in the army.

The haters know they can't turn this around and it makes them desperate.

[pap64]

You know what it is? Those hateful people probably realize they're on the losing side of the argument. They know progress has been made and it's never going to go away. It will only progress even further, and they can't handle that thought.

Just look at gay marriage. First it was just that pot lovin', baby-killin', sex-crazed little Holland. Then the list started to grow and grow, and even deeply catholic countries like Spain and recently Argentina (thank you, Christina and Nestor Kirchner!) legalized same-sex marriages. Even some states within the US have acknowledged it, and president Obama is talking about repealing 'Don't ask, don't tell', so that homosexuals can serve openly in the army.

The haters know they can't turn this around and it makes them desperate.

Actually, I read that these groups of people strive in getting the best lawyers in the event that they are attacked by the opposing side of the argument. I may be mistaken, but they can and WILL go to court over the smallest incident, so this form of counter protest is the best way to deal with them, since they too have the right to protest (as long as they do it without any serious confrontations, and it's likely the Church knows this as well).

[zackisthewalrus]

Prop 8 was just ruled unconstitutional!!

http://www.noh8campaign.com/article/prop8ruling

[Flanger-Hanger]

Prop 8 was just ruled unconstitutional!!

http://www.noh8campaign.com/article/prop8ruling

Excellent news indeed! Does this mean same-sex marriages are legal in California once again, or do we have to wait until after the case goes through the Supreme Court?

[Margos]

Prop 8 was just ruled unconstitutional!!

http://www.noh8campaign.com/article/prop8ruling

They actually did it!? OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG!!! It's like Brown v. Board of Education all over again! WE SHALL OVERCOME!!!

Although... if it wasn't the Supreme Court.... then that doesn't make marriage discrimination illegal yet? Well... still, it's a step in the right direction! I'm sure it'll happen someday!

[Goliath]

[...] so this form of counter protest is the best way to deal with them, since they too have the right to protest (as long as they do it without any serious confrontations, and it's likely the Church knows this as well).

I don't agree. I think they don't have the right (or *shouldn't* have the right) to protest at funerals or anywhere near a funeral. But then again, I'm used to laws which would have landed people like them in jail a long time ago. Because spreading hatred is not the same as freedom of speech.

[Disney Duster]

California is one of the places, if not the place where same-sex marriage should be legal! Of course, it should be legal everywhere but you know what I mean! YAY!!!

and now are taking aim at comic book nerds and geeks for the sole fact that "they worship false idols" (which in itself opens a whole can of worms since religion is so ambiguous we may be worshipping the wrong Gods as well...but that's something different altogether).

Well, you that who "false idols things" only comes from one religion and one "kind" of God, so, naturally the only way to follow it is worshiping that religion's version of God.