Episode 3: Revenge of the Gays, Are You One Too?

[Disney Duster]

Oh, I forgot to say, I think I said I was bisexual for like a year before I dated my first guy and came to the conclusion I was gay. So...there that is.

Goliath, first, so did that guy turn out to be gay or straight?

Next, you completely missed how his movie collection was just topping off all the other things that pointed to him being gay, mainly that I thought he was from the moment I saw him. Gaydar. Gay guys tend to, well, tell most of the time.

And architecture is a very manly thing. I can see how gays could like it, as even I do, but it's always been a rather manly profession like carpentry. This girl didn't know what she was talking about, I think. Also, the things you listed were quite different from the things I listed. There are things you just do not seem to be getting about this, Goliath, which is really fine since you say you are not gay.

The point is...this guy, how is he going to be really happy with a girl? You have to read the whole thing and put the pieces together. It's about it seeming he's hiding that he is gay, possibly using bisexuality to not be gay. It's about someone who is giving signals, telling you something, and we shouldn't ignore those. He shouldn't ignore those. I want him to be happy.

Margos, I felt very different all through my life, and when I came out, I thought what was different about me was my being gay, and I thought the gay community would be where I found a place and was very happy. And of course it does makes me happy, but I still feel very different from most gay guys I meet. In fact, on this forum I thought I might find people like me and feel a part, and while I do feel part of the family we have here, as you should, too, I also feel very different. I may just need to find common ground with people and perhaps try more to see how people are like me...but I don't know about that either as I have tried.

I figure I'm just a pretty different guy. Even weird.

But I would think there would be a bisexual sub-community or support group or something. I would think bisexuals would start saying they need to band or at least stick together, so...maybe that's out there?

And we still want you to be part of us and be happy, you know. That goes for everyone in this thread, too, everybody!

[Lazario]

Now I wish I had never brought this up. I wanted to go on thinking UD was one big supporting community, and I've always seen gay men as my bretheren. I'm a bisexual woman and I'm proud of that, and always felt a part of the whole LGBT family. But now I see that some of the people, even here on UD, that I thought were a real part of my "community" are just as ignorant as a lot of the straight people in my life. If I can't turn to the gay community, who the hell can I turn to? I'm not straight, but now I feel like I can't fit in anywhere, if I can't even fit in among those who should be supportive...

What's your idea of supportive?

Because... this is it. This is all you get in life. Real life is only like it is on weepy reality-TV shows (where they fade-up the inspirational song and sparkle dust with accompanying gentle cymbal sound effect) for stupid people who have no grasp over the idea that all life has an unhappy ending. That's why life is so damn hard and why it usually sucks. I don't come to threads like this expecting someone to hold my hand, give me inspiration and hope to go on living. What is this, a Lifetime movie-of-the-week?

I don't mean to be rude. But I learned quickly when I was younger that you're really on your own when it comes to your emotional well-being, sanity and delusions of hope. You have to take care of yourself. If you find another person who can make you feel better about your problems and agree with you blindly- hey, that's nice. But you can't count on it. I'm not saying you can't break down every now and then. But the way you talk now, it's like you want us to think you're fragile. And need our help or you can't cope.

Even if what you came here for was a reminder that people who aren't bisexual can understand it... like all things in life, you don't need anyone else for that. What in fact, do you want now that you don't have? Because if you're looking for people to just nod their head and give you the same blah-blah-blah message of positivity you can find anywhere in print, only with the assurance that it's coming from someone live instead of programmed... I think you'll find out later that it's the same either way.

The Key of Awesome strikes again! :

This one nearly freaking KILLED ME!!! I haven't laughed this hard in something like 5 years... :

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT WAS FREAKING AMAZING! I too nearly died laughing at the Lady Gaga parody!

THEY CHANGED THE AUDIO!!! This new audio mix is terrible! They added friggin' western horse shoe clicks and a bunch of bad aural effects. What the hell?!?!?! It better have been because of copyright reasons, like they came too close to sounding like the original Lady Gaga song so Interscope threatened to sue or something.

Okay, just checked... HERE's the original (thank God for those scummy people who steal original videos through KeepVid and post them as their own ) :

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PsR90msi5fM&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PsR90msi5fM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

And yes, it is hilarious.

[Margos]

Now I wish I had never brought this up. I wanted to go on thinking UD was one big supporting community, and I've always seen gay men as my bretheren. I'm a bisexual woman and I'm proud of that, and always felt a part of the whole LGBT family. But now I see that some of the people, even here on UD, that I thought were a real part of my "community" are just as ignorant as a lot of the straight people in my life. If I can't turn to the gay community, who the hell can I turn to? I'm not straight, but now I feel like I can't fit in anywhere, if I can't even fit in among those who should be supportive...

What's your idea of supportive?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe people NOT saying that "Oh, you're different from us, and SO not good for the community's image, since you're technically only half a valid member of us and must be pretty indecisive."

We do NOT make the community look bad. What makes US (as a whole community, not just bisexuals) look bad is when we cannot come together as a whole, because you seem to think we're just "gay-lite." That's just hurtful.

[Lazario]

What's your idea of supportive?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe people NOT saying that "Oh, you're different from us, and SO not good for the community's image, since you're technically only half a valid member of us and must be pretty indecisive."

We do NOT make the community look bad. What makes US (as a whole community, not just bisexuals) look bad is when we cannot come together as a whole, because you seem to think we're just "gay-lite." That's just hurtful.

Don't put words into my mouth, Margos. I never said I believe everything the people you've come into contact say to you. I'm just saying, there may be something to the fact that they say it. Behind the words, I think it's important to consider all perspectives. This is a complex issue and you're treating it like any time anyone says anything even slightly negative about it, that they are evil and not supportive. Grow up! Like I said, this is the way the world is. People are critical of almost everything. Just because I'm gay doesn't mean I let everything people say get to me. Nor am I foolish enough to think being gay gives me power over anyone else. I also already said I can accept bisexuality. I was sharing a simple series of observations. When it comes down to it, I don't freaking care about who you're attracted and/or why. Let alone enough to try to push you down for some kind of cheap thrill. Hell, I can't even give you a positive message without you taking it the wrong way. You still expect other people to pump up your self-esteem for you?!

I had a feeling about you when we were discussing criticism of Lady Gaga... how one-sided the issue was for you, but I let it slide then.

[Margos]

Is it really a two-sided issue? Are gay rights a two-sided issue? Tell you what, if you can tell me right now the viewpoints of hardened homophobes as to why YOU are an abomination, then I can accept your whole "so-open-minded-and-holier-than-thou" attitude about this kind of thing.

Look, that's what I have a problem with. When people call stuff like the inclusion of bisexuals in the gay pride movement "a two-sided issue." No, it really isn't. Saying that is like saying, "Well, I guess I'm OK with it, but I can totally see why people wouldn't be." And that's just not right when you're talking about a human being.

[Lazario]

I am trying to be realistic. And I'm trying to put you on my same level. Holier-than-thou people want others to be under them. I don't want people to be under or above me. I want us to be on the same level for as long as we're talking, as much as can be leveled in spite of differening personalities. So, if I'm wrong, I want to be above- where they are. That's the way I always talk to people. But if they say something I think is incredibly wrong, I'm going to tell them so. And you went after me, where I was trying to be as anti-personal as I could when I wasn't talking directly to you.

Now... All I can say to help you is that yeah, a lot of gay people have a feeling of superiority against people in their community for various reasons. Not just against bisexuals but against interracial couples- for lots of reasons. Hell, anyone they don't like the looks of. I'm aware of this and you're right if you're saying how dare they react to my bisexuality like it holds them back. Your sexuality is no one else's, it's yours. I started going down that road and it was foolish. I admit that.

But you see being gay and being bisexual as the same thing. I don't think it is. That's where we're butting heads.

[Margos]

But you see being gay and being bisexual as the same thing. I don't think it is.

How so? I mean, yeah, obviously they are different things. But... what do you mean "the same thing?" Equally valid?

[Lazario]

But you see being gay and being bisexual as the same thing. I don't think it is.

How so? I mean, yeah, obviously they are different things. But... what do you mean "the same thing?" Equally valid?

Well, I'm not bisexual- so I could never say I know the answer to that is yes or no.

Part of being gay to me means being sure of exactly what you want as an ideal (or else- why do we want marriage rights? Not just so we can get married and hang loose, saying, I might stay faithful or I might stray?). Other than knowing what single gender we're attracted to, we want the option to have all the rights straight people have.

Bisexual people might end up with someone of their opposite gender. If they do, they don't need the same rights as gay people do unless they're planning on splitting up later. There is an If quality to the marriage rights bisexuals need. An "it might come up later" or "in the event of." Depending on what gender they decide to be with after they find their ideal person (assuming as I hope we all do, that being bisexual is about more than just freedom to not be judged for having sex with or being physically attracted to both genders). That's not the same as being gay, only bisexuals who find someone of their own gender and decide that that is the person they want to spend the rest of their lives with need the same marriage rights and protections.

Speaking for myself, that's a terrible thing- preparing for a break-up. Which is the only case in which I see bisexual people who get in a serious relationship with someone of their opposite gender being the same as gay people. To me, it falls in the same category as people who can't commit to a relationship once they've decided to make it. If it fails, that's one thing. I mentioned the pressure the LGBT community gets before and this is no doubt going to ruin lives for decades to come. Not to mention, heat these issues and cause us to argue with each other. Just remember, I'm trying to be honest and helpful. As much as I can be.

[Goliath]

Goliath, first, so did that guy turn out to be gay or straight?

You mean the guy she thought was gay (liked art and architecture) or the guy she ended up with? They were both straight.

As for the 'Gaydar': no, obviously I don't have it.

I'm always the last person to find out that someone is gay (either someone I know or some celebrity). People are always surprised I didn't know: "how could you not know? You can *totally* tell he/she's gay!" Well, I can't, I don't see it. Most of the time. Sometimes it's really obvious, but most of the time I don't notice it. One of the students I knew turned out to be gay. I was 'supposed' to know, I was told, because he hung around with only girls all the time and he collected all the albums of the Sugababes. But I don't stereotype and categorize people that way, so I really didn't know.

About this guy you keep talking about: it seems to me you *want* him to be 'just' gay (instead of bisexual), because you are attracted to him. That's why you're telling yourself that all the 'signs' point to him being gay. Could I be right?

People can think you're homosexual because of the weirdest of reasons. In high school, we had to watch a ballet, and any guy who dared to admit he liked it, was immediately thought of being gay.

@ Margos: Not to argue, but: are you sure there is something like a gay 'community'? Is there a 'straight community'? All straight people are sure as hell not treating each other as equals, so why should gay people be any different? I think that's part of what Lazario is trying to say. Just because two people are both gay doesn't mean they think the same about everything, or act the same, or judge people the same way. I think Lazario is also saying you shouldn't let your self-confidence depend on what other people (straight or gay) think about you.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure Lazario will correct me immediately.

[Margos]

OK, I get more of what you're saying now. And it's almost sad to hear that you think that self-interest is the only reason bi people are fighting for gay rights. I don't just mean legal rights, the right to marry, etc. That's not exactly what we're fighting for, at least, I don't think so. Just as every other civil rights movement that came before us, we're fighting against a point of view. And bisexuals are disliked and misunderstood just as much... scratch that... more than gay people are. This is why I am a part of the community. If I marry a man, I will still be bisexual, it won't make me "magically straight" to be in a permanent straight relationship. And I will still want to be seen as and treated as a human being.

If you thought that this was just about legal rights, I think you are sadly mistaken.

[ajmrowland]

Is it really a two-sided issue? Are gay rights a two-sided issue?.

Sadly, yes. Because everyone is different, no two people have the same pov on everything, so even if one person's wrong and the other's right, there's always more than one side. It's a fact of life.

[Goliath]

@ ajmrowland:

I disagree. When it comes to gay rights, it's fairly simple: those who are in favor of it are right. Those who are against it are wrong. Now, why can I be so sure of this? The Constitution. It says all people should be treated equally and all people should have the same rights. So if gay people çan't get married (for example) and straight people can, that's an inequality. If all people should have the same rights, this applies to gay people as well. So in this case, there's an easy right-and-wrong.

At the other hand, the US Constitution doesn't mean much anymore, anyway, at this point, as it's trampled on a daily basis by the Obama-administration, so who knows... maybe I'm only right *in theory*?

[Margos]

Goliath, you took the words right out of my mouth. Technically, yes, everything is a two-sided issue. There are people who think that murder is a good idea, or that Hitler was awesome, or whatever. They have those thoughts. But that doesn't make them correct. Just because something has two sides doesn't make it a two-sided issue. Because in some cases, it's Thing 1 v. Thing 2. In this case, it's Right v. Wrong. It's like someone having the viewpoint that the sky is pink, so now the color of the sky is a two-sided issue. No, sorry, that's not how it works.

[ajmrowland]

@ ajmrowland:

I disagree. When it comes to gay rights, it's fairly simple: those who are in favor of it are right. Those who are against it are wrong. Now, why can I be so sure of this? The Constitution. It says all people should be treated equally and all people should have the same rights. So if gay people çan't get married (for example) and straight people can, that's an inequality. If all people should have the same rights, this applies to gay people as well. So in this case, there's an easy right-and-wrong.

At the other hand, the US Constitution doesn't mean much anymore, anyway, at this point, as it's trampled on a daily basis by the Obama-administration, so who knows... maybe I'm only right *in theory*?

Yes, i know that, but despite that, those who wrong still picked a side on the issue. They just picked the side that was wrong. That's the point I was trying to make.

[Disney Duster]

Goliath, I think you may be confirming that people don't read all I say or get all I say. I said I don't think I could end up in love with this guy. I think he's more interested in me than I am in him, but maybe not. If anything, we would probably just fool around and not get into a relationship. What I am talking about is who he will end up with in a long-term relationship that will make him happiest. I think that's a guy. I think guys will give him what he needs.

I thought he was gay when I saw him. Then he was with a girl and I thought, "Maybe those people are right. Maybe you can't tell when someone is gay from things like I detected." Then I see him at a gay club, he tells me he's bisexual and he's mostly screwed around with guys.

That tells me I was right.

Those other people that thought someone was gay for some rather weird reasons, yea, they were not good at this.

[Goliath]

Goliath, you took the words right out of my mouth. Technically, yes, everything is a two-sided issue. There are people who think that murder is a good idea, or that Hitler was awesome, or whatever. They have those thoughts. But that doesn't make them correct. Just because something has two sides doesn't make it a two-sided issue. Because in some cases, it's Thing 1 v. Thing 2. In this case, it's Right v. Wrong. It's like someone having the viewpoint that the sky is pink, so now the color of the sky is a two-sided issue. No, sorry, that's not how it works.

The problem is that this fundamentally false 'everything has two sides' idea is polluting the (American) media as well. For every reasonable person on tv, there's a crackpot to "balance it out". So every gay rights activist on tv ends up arguing with a bigot, just for the sake of 'balance'. This is also why you get to see so many climate change-deniers on tv, despite that 99% of the academic world agrees that it's real: it's one clear and definite example that the wrong idea that "every issue has two sides" is polluting the national dialogue.

Of course I'm not advocating that all the media only treat *one* side od every issue... I mean, *one* Fox News is enough... But just adding another 'side' to a discussion just for the sake of having another side... Not a smart idea.

Back to gay rights: I often have the feeling people are arguing about it the wrong way, often also in the media. You will have somebody who is opposed to gay rights, based on his religion; and you will have a gay rights activist. The latter will spend the entire debate trying to convince the former that his interpretation of his Holy Book is wrong, and that God surely must love everybody, 'even' gay people and that He must want everybody to be happy, including gays... etc. etc.

But the framing is wrong. The media, and therefore the gay rights activists, always let the religious fundies frame the discussion. That's why a discussion always has a religious frame; and you're not going to convince some fundie (and therefore the audience watching) that his interpretation of his faith is wrong. Much more likely, you will only come off as arrogant and the fundie will gain sympathy. What you have to do, is change the frame. The frame should be about Constitutional rights (whatever they still mean nowadays, anyway, but okay...). Don't argue gay rights based on religion; argue it based on the seperation between church and state: the church can be against gay rights all they want, but the state shouldn't kowtow to them.

Goliath, I think you may be confirming that people don't read all I say or get all I say.

Well, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but: you *are* hard to 'get'. Often, I don't even know what you're trying to say with your posts. Maybe if you could be more to the point every now and then, that would help?

I said I don't think I could end up in love with this guy. I think he's more interested in me than I am in him, but maybe not. If anything, we would probably just fool around and not get into a relationship.

And is that a bad thing?

Coming back to the discussion about bisexuality: read today in the paper about what I said earlier, when I identified a possible reason why gay people could be hostile toward bisexuals: the "popular"-factor. I believe it was yesterday that Vanessa Carlton (the one day fly who scored a hit with 'Thousand miles') came out and told the media she was bisexual. The tenure of the article was: "Yawn! Just another celebritywho wants to make headlines". It referenced the hausse of female celbrities 'coming out' as bisexuals, like (supposedly) Katy Perry, Fergie and a lot of other 'stars' I never heard of. And didn't Madonna pretend to bed girls in the 1980's already, just to shock the audience and sell more records?

*I'm* not saying bisexuality isn't real, but these people, I think, give bisexuals a bad name because of their media stunts. It has become some sort of 'hype', and I can understand why some gay people aren't happy with it.

[ajmrowland]

^we're only human, so we cant all think like you, Goliath.

a big "Duh" on your view of an issue having 2 sides. yes, there's always the crapckpot's view, sometimes the masses. But that's the whole point of the "every issue has two sides" way of thinking. It's called being openminded, something which your posting history sadly does not have enough of. It's not an "I'm right/you're wrong" You're very right, but............gotta think of the right way to word this..................

[Disney Duster]

Oh, don't worry Goliath. I don't know how to tell people exactly what I mean, it may just be I have ideas that most people wouldn't think of. I just might be too different.

What you said about seperation of church and state is quite right. However, it comes down to, if religious people are voting against gay rights, and the votes count...we may have to talk, calmly, to religious people and try to see if we can change their views. We may not have to rely on that, but...

[Goliath]

^we're only human, so we cant all think like you, Goliath.

a big "Duh" on your view of an issue having 2 sides. yes, there's always the crapckpot's view, sometimes the masses. But that's the whole point of the "every issue has two sides" way of thinking. It's called being openminded, something which your posting history sadly does not have enough of. It's not an "I'm right/you're wrong" You're very right, but............gotta think of the right way to word this..................

Now now, no need to get personal now, ajmrowland. And there's no need to mischaracterize what I said. I would never ask anybody to think just like me. There's just some things I don't negotiate about. A *lot* of things are up to debate, to me at least. But not everything. Because not everything has 'two sides', and that's because I don't count the crackpot-side, which you do count. That has nothing to do with being open-minded, but everything with being realistic. By the way, the way I've been posting in these threads, you can hardly say I'm not open-minded. If you're honest, you'll have to agree about that.

Things not up to debate to me:

- You're not "raised" or "taught" to be gay, nor do you "choose" to be gay. You are gay because of birth.
- Evolution. The earth being billions of years old. Dinosaurs. Humans developed from earlier creatures; not magically created by one higher being.
- Climate change. Extent and causes can be discussed. Denying I won't accept.
- Not all cultures are equally good. Some ways of life are better than others. Democracy is better than dictatorship. Equal rights is better than discrimination. Free press is better than censorship.

If you don't stand for things, then why bother having principles at all?

What you said about seperation of church and state is quite right. However, it comes down to, if religious people are voting against gay rights, and the votes count...we may have to talk, calmly, to religious people and try to see if we can change their views. We may not have to rely on that, but...

Even then, we shouldn't accept it. Just because a majority of people hold an opinion, doesn't mean it's a right and just opinion and we should always do as they say. Most people were against equal rights for black people, or against racial integration (e.g. accepting black students into formerly all-white schools), or against voting rights for women etc. And yet, lawmakers have derided the majority of the people because they understood that principles were more important than the wrong-headed ideas of the majority. And eventually most people came to accept those principles as a natural state of being.

[Disney Duster]

ajmrowland, I just gotta say, you are probably right. There's actually probably many multiple sides to every issue. However, there is (or we would like to/should believe) only one side is right.

Yes Goliath, sometimes the majority if very wrong and someone needs to mae a chnage happen with the little support they have.

As for what you said about you being right about certain things and certain things being undeniable...

It is nice, it is nice to believe it's not just opinion and you know the truth and what's right. And you can, we should believe that the good things are right. But someday some of the things you thought were right may be proven wrong. After all, you have not believed all the same exact things your whole life.

For now, I will agree, most of the things you said are right, and good, and true. But you never know. And maybe those things don't make everyone happy, in which case they aren't right for everyone.

And the last thing I will say is I hope you know lots of people believe in evolution but that it was guided by God, or whatever made, well, everythng exist...and that that one is always possible in your list of things that are undebatable.