Pinocchio Discussion

[MagicMirror]

In my opinion, it's the best Disney film.

I think the best way to describe the colours is 'sumptuous'. The food on Gepetto's table really looks like you could reach in and take a bite, and that it is delicious (no small feat, as I am a notoriously fussy eater). There's such warmth in many of the scenes, and it's got such a beautiful palette.

Another reason it is so good is that it doesn't follow what many critics consider to be the 'Disney ideology'. For this reason, I always recommend it to anime fans who prattle on about Disney's family friendly, passive females and 'cutesy wutesy' films.

Being darker than probably all other Disney films, it is also the scariest. I've never seen anyone less than recoil at the donkey transformation sequence. Monstro is really scary and terrifying as well; they achieved such scale with that scene, and it's probably the most intense action sequence ever created by Disney.
It is in the minority in that none of the villains get their come-uppance on-screen, with the possible exception of Monstro, if we count him as a villain, who probably gets a nasty bump on his head (in the least!). We are taught that we can not always vanquish evil; it will always be there, and we must escape it and avoid it.

I wonder what will be on the new 2-Disc DVD? I'm really hoping that they put on a 'Walt's Story Meetings' feature as they did on Bambi; if not, I would settle for a commentary. I think that this DVD should be as comprehensive as the Snow White DVD was (though that's unlikely).

[Big Disney Fan]

Kinda off topic here, but I think in terms of releases, I think Little Mermaid is to Snow White as Beauty and the Beast is to Pinocchio.

[MagicMirror]

If you mean that, while one film signals the beginning of a great era, the other is the peak of that era, I certainly agree!

[Big Disney Fan]

If you mean that, while one film signals the beginning of a great era, the other is the peak of that era, I certainly agree!

Yep, that's EXACTLY what I meant!

[Escapay]

Kinda off topic here, but I think in terms of releases, I think Little Mermaid is to Snow White as Beauty and the Beast is to Pinocchio.

Two woefully overrated movies with princesses who sound better when they don't talk versus two wonderfully rich and animated movies where every frame captivates the audience and every character is just as engaging?



Escapay

[Big Disney Fan]

Kinda off topic here, but I think in terms of releases, I think Little Mermaid is to Snow White as Beauty and the Beast is to Pinocchio.

Two woefully overrated movies with princesses who sound better when they don't talk versus two wonderfully rich and animated movies where every frame captivates the audience and every character is just as engaging?



Escapay

Oh, I think Cinderella is more overrated than any others. In fact, I think it and Lilo and Stitch are two of the most overrated Disney movies of all time!

[Super Aurora]

Two woefully overrated movies with princesses who sound better when they don't talk versus two wonderfully rich and animated movies where every frame captivates the audience and every character is just as engaging?



Escapay

Oh, I think Cinderella is more overrated than any others. In fact, I think it and Lilo and Stitch are two of the most overrated Disney movies of all time!

More overrated than the Lion King????

[Disney's Divinity]

Probably a stupid question, but is there any confirmation anywhere by Disney or in various books about the movies (where people involved in the making of the movie were a source) that said if Monstro died at the end of Pinocchio? I guess I just always assumed he did, but I guess maybe he could survive hitting those rocks…maybe?

Honestly, the funniest thing on re-watch—besides the usual Figaro stuff (and I stand by my recent comment in the Moana thread that Figaro is one of the Disney’s cutest characters ever)—was after Geppetto washes ashore at the end, and next thing you know Cleo and Figaro wash up out of nowhere, too, Cleo never having escaped her bowl, the bowl never having sunk/broken to pieces, and without a bit of the water in her bowl having been lost even though the raft was blown to bits. I wonder if they meant you to laugh, because it felt wrong for me to be laughint right before the cut to dead Pinocchio.

Pinocchio’s world is very strange, actually, what with Honest John walking around with normal people, a place where people can be turned into donkeys in random areas somehow (based on their behavior), etc. The stupidest thing to me is that, right after Pinocchio is “born,” he has to go to school immediately. He acts like a 3-year-old at best and Geppetto is going to send him off to school without even walking him there—with a book, no less, like he could possibly read. I get why Duster always thought the Blue Fairy was a ***** upon re-watch, but she still doesn’t really bother me. Jiminy Cricket actually bothered me less this time around? I think it’s because I read so many of ProfessorRatigan’s comments about Jiminy Cricket that I didn’t remember him as fondly. He’s not one of my favorites, but he isn't irksome to me.

They really build up the Coachman and Paradise Island well, with Honest John being terrified after he just offered to kill someone without even flinching. And, wow, those two (Honest John & Gideon) are way more villainous than I remembered. I always thought they were somewhat comical villains, but apparently they would murder for money. Jeez. Even so, my favorite part of the film has always been the ending when Pinocchio goes into the ocean. Monstro is so primal. That’s why I said in the SW thread a week or so ago that I can see how the first five films distinctly stand apart from Walt’s other films just in the general vibe they had. There was always some, I don’t know what to call it, primordial feeling to these movies for me that’s really missing from the ‘50s-‘60s (and of course everything after). I’m thinking of the Queen calling to the Mirror at the beginning of SW (with the fire), Snow running through the woods, the Queen’s transformation; Monstro; some of the dinosaur scenes (particularly the ending when the earth is rent apart) and Chernabog; Ronno and the fire at the end of Bambi; the “Pink Elephants” scene, the opening with the tent being built, and Mrs. Jumbo coming unhinged in Dumbo. The closest thing that comes to mind in the later Walt films is Cruella’s car in Dalmatians and maybe the dress-tearing scene in Cinderella (as well as the carriage being chased by the palace guards). There are some moments from later movies that come somewhere close to the same spot, just not quite on the same level (like Aurora touching the spindle, Ursula taking Ariel’s voice, Penny trying to get the diamond in The Rescuers, etc.) I’m not saying the films are superior because of it, just that they definitely feel like their own thing separate from everything else Disney in that way.

Btw, Pinocchio is one of the few Disney kids that don't annoy me for whatever reason? I can't stand Mowgli, Hiro, Lilo, Penny, and Peter Pan, for example. He, Alice, Wendy in PP, and Jenny in O&C are the ones to come to mind that I like (this isn't talking about teen characters). Animal children characters were never as annoying as the human ones for some reason; the only one that makes me rage is Koda in Brother Bear.

[Semaj]

Probably a stupid question, but is there any confirmation anywhere by Disney or in various books about the movies (where people involved in the making of the movie were a source) that said if Monstro died at the end of Pinocchio? I guess I just always assumed he did, but I guess maybe he could survive hitting those rocks…maybe?

If he survived, that would've made Pinocchio's death even more ironic...

Honestly, the funniest thing on re-watch—besides the usual Figaro stuff (and I stand by my recent comment in the Moana thread that Figaro is one of the Disney’s cutest characters ever)—was after Geppetto washes ashore at the end, and next thing you know Cleo and Figaro wash up out of nowhere, too, Cleo never having escaped her bowl, the bowl never having sunk/broken to pieces, and without a bit of the water in her bowl having been lost even though the raft was blown to bits. I wonder if they meant you to laugh, because it felt wrong for me to be laughint right before the cut to dead Pinocchio.

...on top of all that.

That’s why I said in the SW thread a week or so ago that I can see how the first five films distinctly stand apart from Walt’s other films just in the general vibe they had. There was always some, I don’t know what to call it, primordial feeling to these movies for me that’s really missing from the ‘50s-‘60s (and of course everything after). I’m thinking of the Queen calling to the Mirror at the beginning of SW (with the fire), Snow running through the woods, the Queen’s transformation; Monstro; some of the dinosaur scenes (particularly the ending when the earth is rent apart) and Chernabog; Ronno and the fire at the end of Bambi; the “Pink Elephants” scene, the opening with the tent being built, and Mrs. Jumbo coming unhinged in Dumbo. The closest thing that comes to mind in the later Walt films is Cruella’s car in Dalmatians and maybe the dress-tearing scene in Cinderella (as well as the carriage being chased by the palace guards). There are some moments from later movies that come somewhere close to the same spot, just not quite on the same level (like Aurora touching the spindle, Ursula taking Ariel’s voice, Penny trying to get the diamond in The Rescuers, etc.) I’m not saying the films are superior because of it, just that they definitely feel like their own thing separate from everything else Disney in that way.

There definitely is a feeling of sophistication and boldness behind the First Five that was scarcely matched in the latter films. Sleeping Beauty seemed like a final attempt at capturing that level of complexity that was used for Snow White, except Walt was too distracted by other interests to make it work. They couldn't take as many risks with their characterizations as they did with Pinocchio or Bambi; whenever Walt and his animators approached the possiblity of killing off a character, they were talked out of it. And then the package features were primarily a string of ideas that were not realized as separate features. Make Mine Music and Melody Time were sort of aborted Fantasias.

The First Five was also what Don Bluth pushed for when he worked at Disney, as one of the few who called out their low-key filmmaking during the 70's. Whether he really achieved that with his own films is up for debate, yet it was during a critical time when Disney didn't seem to care about making great films.

[Disney Duster]

I was told by so many that Pinocchio was Walt Disney's best film, and when I finally watched the Platinum Edition, seeing the movie the first time as an adult, I...didn't get why it got such huge praise. I feel it is overrated. Should I be impressed and think it deserves it's high rating? Maybe. Is it just that I'm into princess films more? I doubt it because I love Bambi and recently liked The Fox and the Hound.

The art is fantastic. Figaro is cute as hell, like Divinity said. The Blue Fairy...well, I still feel like she's a bitch for making a new born kid who knows so little aspire to certain things to get his wish, and she won't help him the next time he might die like he almost did in Stromboli's coach, but hey, she's a fairy, maybe she knows he won't die in the future? Except of course when he proves himself brave and unselfish and can make him real? Hm that reminds me of the enchantress and the Beast's death in Beauty and the Beast. Anyway, I guess I had a problem with Pinocchio being duped twice by the same people and then finally doing what's right, but I don't see where he was truthful in the end to get his wish. I guess I find it episodic. I don't mind the weird animal logic or Pinocchio possibly dying logic, I just...I just didn't feel this was all that great. I don't like Jiminy Cricket. Kind of like the Blue Fairy I feel he's too mean to a poor little kid.

But I can see the art is good, all the characters bar their mistreatment of a kid are good, I have always liked Pinocchio a lot as a kid and still do, bar getting duped twice by the same people, and yea the animation and action sequences are perhaps Walt Disney's best, barring Sleeping Beauty's.

I like what Disney's Divinity and Semaj said. Walt's first five films have something the rest of the films don't have. I agree with a lot those two said. Except I doubt we are supposed to laugh right before seeing Pinocchio dead or seriously injured, I think Figaro and Cleo in that scene is a plot hole.

[blackcauldron85]

The stupidest thing to me is that, right after Pinocchio is “born,” he has to go to school immediately. He acts like a 3-year-old at best and Geppetto is going to send him off to school without even walking him there—with a book, no less, like he could possibly read.

I always thought that was one of the things, like you say, that they meant for you to laugh at. Gepetto means well- he wanted a child, and children go to school!

The "mistreatment of a kid"...I mean, Pinocchio is a moral tale, be honest, and kind (unlike the villains), and if you're not honest and kind, you'll turn into a donkey/get stuck in a birdcage and be threatened to be made into firewood/etc.

[jazzflower92]

One of the changes I am happy they made in the movie is making Pinocchio a likable character, because his book counterpart was such a total brat that it would be hard to feel any sympathy for him.

As people have said before, this movie is surprisingly dark and it really shows in many places, especially the Pleasure Island section. I mean the fact the Coachman is never defeated and the boys are never rescued from their fate is really something that rarely happens in this day and age. There is a clear theme that evil is sometimes not defeated, and that can still be out there lurking to find others who fall into it's trap.

[Disney Duster]

Wow. So you guys are ok with kids getting chopped into firewood or turned into donkeys for disobeying their parents or not going to school.

[jazzflower92]

Wow. So you guys are ok with kids getting chopped into firewood or turned into donkeys for disobeying their parents or not going to school.

For an early Disney movie, it actually feels like one of the older fairy tales in tone due to the fact that often times in a lot of older myths sometimes the villains are never punished and are more like obstacles to overcome.

[JeanGreyForever]

It's funny because I used to be more freaked out about Stromboli putting Pinocchio in a cage rather than the Pleasure Island scene. The scene that gets me the most now is when the donkey Alexander can still speak and starts crying out for his mother. I always wished he could have gotten out somehow, but they all end up in servitude forever. The book goes one further by revealing that Lampwick's character ends up dying from working so much as a donkey.

I think this movie is considered to be one of the best, not for the plot so much but for its characters, songs, and animation which most people find to be superior to everything else except maybe Sleeping Beauty.

[jazzflower92]

Has anyone ever read the original story of Pinocchio? I've only gotten onto wikipedia and Tv Tropes in order to learn about it's literary form. Another thing in the book is that Lampwick (Candlewick in the original) was Pinocchio's school friend, and not just someone he meets on his way to Pleasure Island.

[JeanGreyForever]

I read it a year ago and it is really episodic. The book was supposed to end when the characters of Honest John and Gideon kill Pinocchio, but it was so popular that readers didn't like this and wanted a continuation of the story. This is when the Blue Fairy character is introduced and ends up reviving him. Actually Pinocchio dies a lot in the book but the Blue Fairy always helps him out, unlike in the movie when she says she can only help him the one time. In the book, she basically plays this motherly/sisterly role to him and even helps raise him with Geppetto at the end.

All the characters have different names (like you pointed out with Lampwick) and he's not nearly as redeeming in the book as he is in the movie. Maybe that's why he dies in the book when Pinocchio visits him (on some other adventure I can't remember. He gets lost and trapped a lot).

I generally prefer movies closer to the books, but this is one case where I think Disney did a good job of cleaning up the story and giving it one coherent storyline as well as making the characters more memorable. The book is really good though if you don't mind main characters who are caustic to everyone around them and constantly make bad decisions over and over again.

[jazzflower92]

Yeah, apparently Lampwick's real name in the book is Romeo.

No wonder he prefers his nickname to his real name. It would be funny if they had a fanfiction where Lampwick from the movie had his real name revealed as Romeo.

And one thing I found interesting is that originally Pinocchio was going to turn into a real boy early, but Candlewick, Lampwick's name in the book, convinces him to come with him to the Land of Toys (Pleasure Island's name in the book).

[JeanGreyForever]

Funnily enough I was reading the TV tropes page for Pinocchio just yesterday so I saw the Romeo part too. I don't remember that probably because it is such a minor detail.

I can't remember exactly, but I think if Pinocchio had held on for another day (or maybe it was a week) he would have spent a whole year as a good and obedient child and become human. He ends up becoming the number one in his class which causes the other boys to become jealous of him. They convince him to skip school one day and he reluctantly goes, and ironically, he only goes because he hears that the whale who swallowed his father will be there. So his intentions were good, but this sets him off an another adventure and the Blue Fairy dies of grief from this (only to return at the end of course).

[jazzflower92]

Funnily enough I was reading the TV tropes page for Pinocchio just yesterday so I saw the Romeo part too. I don't remember that probably because it is such a minor detail.

I can't remember exactly, but I think if Pinocchio had held on for another day (or maybe it was a week) he would have spent a whole year as a good and obedient child and become human. He ends up becoming the number one in his class which causes the other boys to become jealous of him. They convince him to skip school one day and he reluctantly goes, and ironically, he only goes because he hears that the whale who swallowed his father will be there. So his intentions were good, but this sets him off an another adventure and the Blue Fairy dies of grief from this (only to return at the end of course).

Which again goes with the theme of choosing right choices, especially when it comes to finally reaching your goal and one little decision ruins it for you forever. With the fact he was top of his class in the books, it makes me wonder how movie Pinnochio would do in school.