Hand-Drawn Animation Dead at Disney

TsWade2 · Post by **TsWade2** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:58 pm

Here's my another reaction!

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SOqBBf0Eqj8" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Note: Go to 0:59.

jazzflower92 · Post by **jazzflower92** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:02 pm

I know Lassetor is not perfect but come on stop treating him like he is the AntiChrist.Heck,most fans don't know everything that goes back doors in productions.John Lassetor has to face other people when it comes to making movies as well.He has his flaws but don't make out to be some dark evil overlord.

qindarka · Post by **qindarka** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:13 pm

toonaspie wrote:
SWillie! wrote: I don't worship Lasseter, nor do I think he should be worshipped. But the facts are that he came in during an almost all-time low at Disney Animation both creatively and monetarily, with the goal of making WDAS relevant and profitable again. With the success of Tangled, it appears that is so. They have the most films in active development/production since over ten years ago, and they have had their most profitable film since over ten years ago. Their next release appears to be projected to reach audiences that Disney has never reached before, and they have a wildly acclaimed short film under their belt, that many have claimed to be a game changer in the industry.

If Lassester's goal was the make WDAS relevant and profitable again, he has succeeded. Based on these indisputable facts, he has succeeded.

If you don't like the decisions he's made getting there, that's fine- like I said, he need not be worshipped. But don't act as if he's about to "get the boot" any day now, because he still one of the most valuable assets the company has, regardless of your personal opinions. Anyone educated on the matter can see that. As I said above, can't we for once TRY to be objective about this? It makes for a much more interesting and worthwhile conversation.
I think that Lassetter has a rather narrow-set mind regarding Disney projects and is limiting creativity at Disney to a Pixar-ish style that has been part of his successful career. He's in his own comfortable bubble regarding what works and what doesn't work. He's not in Eiser territory yet but if he's not careful, especially regarding his Cars franchise, who knows...?

He gave TPatF a shot but I don't think it was because of it being 2D that it wasn't as successful as Tangled. Animation succeeds when you experiment and do brand new things with the medium. TPatF's ultimate weakness was that it brought back 2D with nothing new to offer as far as animation or storytelling. It was done in the style of a basic 2D film from the 90s. (In fact, they constantly advertise it as such.) You can't go backwards with Disney. The only thing you can do is do what is currently good or go forward. Had the film been made years earlier, I think it really would've gotten 2D back on track at Disney.

I actually thought that The Princess and the Frog was rather unique and not at all similar to 90s Disney. That doesn't mean it was a great movie, mind.

And it seems rather strange to assert that films' financial success is due to experimenting or trying new things. Sequels seem to be exceedingly profitable despite not being original. Take a look at the profitability of the Shrek and Ice Age franchises, or Toy Story 3 for that matter.

TsWade2 · Post by **TsWade2** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:14 pm

jazzflower92 wrote:I know Lassetor is not perfect but come on stop treating him like he is the AntiChrist.Heck,most fans don't know everything that goes back doors in productions.John Lassetor has to face other people when it comes to making movies as well.He has his flaws but don't make out to be some dark evil overlord.

I can't help it. DIsney is not the same anymore.

SWillie! · Post by **SWillie!** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:18 pm

toonaspie wrote:I think that Lassetter has a rather narrow-set mind regarding Disney projects and is limiting creativity at Disney to a Pixar-ish style that has been part of his successful career. He's in his own comfortable bubble regarding what works and what doesn't work. He's not in Eiser territory yet but if he's not careful, especially regarding his Cars franchise, who knows...?

He gave TPatF a shot but I don't think it was because of it being 2D that it wasn't as successful as Tangled. Animation succeeds when you experiment and do brand new things with the medium. TPatF's ultimate weakness was that it brought back 2D with nothing new to offer as far as animation or storytelling. It was done in the style of a basic 2D film from the 90s. (In fact, they constantly advertise it as such.) You can't go backwards with Disney. The only thing you can do is do what is currently good or go forward. Had the film been made years earlier, I think it really would've gotten 2D back on track at Disney.

I agree to an extent that he's maybe a little narrow minded. I think he's too focused on franchises (although I'm sure a lot of that is pressure from above him), and I feel he's much more willing to take a risk at Pixar than he is at Disney. That said, this is the same guy that greenlit Ralph... Which in my opinion is a fairly sizable risk, story wise.

And you're absolutely correct that you can't go backwards with Disney. After all, "keep moving forward." And I think at THIS moment, hand drawn just simply doesn't seem like something they can do very much "moving forward" with. Hybrid? Yes. But traditional? You have to look from all sides of the coin here, not just from a creative standpoint. What gets the artists excited? What hasn't been done before? I think that's what Lasseter is more concerned with at this point. There's a new generation of artists at Disney, with most of the "old guard" moving on recently. The last time this happened, they were excited to try things like Black Cauldron, that hadn't been done before. I think that transition period is still where they are right now (as much as people want to say that Tangled is the start of the new 'renaissance'). I think Lasseter has to encourage that sort of thing, and I think he's trying. We have to also keep in mid that he is NOT the all powerful decision making factor that Walt was. Some of these decisions, he may very well be wholly against. He has executives to answer to, too. I think he really means it when he says he loves the medium of traditional animation, an I think if the right project came along, he'd be behind it.

jazzflower92 · Post by **jazzflower92** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:20 pm

Maybe it just because I just see this as crying over spilled milk.But look at the bright side of things just maybe Disney CGI movies will as time goes on have more of the classic Disney heart that has been in the company for generations.

Remember at one time the 90's movies turned off many older generations of fans.But now we need to sit back and enjoy what will be coming our way in the future.Sometimes we need to see the good that is coming out of something which has caused dissapointment.

The one thing I am notcing about Disney CGI movies is that they are finding their true heart.And learning to be themselves and trying to walk in the of the ways of their 2D predecessors.You have to realize that Disney is getting into a new generation and now CGI is now going to branch in many directions.

What made Tangled great in my opinion is that it had the same tone as Aladdin.I felt the humour in the both movies were the same.I actually thought this was a true Disney movie.

When I see Wreck It Ralph I am seeing that they are slowly and actually focusing less on the humour and more on the emotional side as well.And deconstructing the role of playing the Bad Guy.

disneyboy20022 · Post by **disneyboy20022** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:51 pm

TsWade2 wrote:
disneyboy20022 wrote:
Uh, perhaps I'm taking a shot in the dark but, I think we might need Dr. Shelby to dial it down from a 20 to a 5.

That's not funny! Can't you see I'm upset about this right now?

Yes I can see you're very upset, I'm upset too regarding this news. However I don't think calling Disney Bambi Reindeer Games is going to help much. I'm very pissed, upset and disappointed about John Lasseter. They should use both traditional animation and CGI, not throw away the traditional altogether. Why Did Winnie the Pooh not do well? They put it against the final Harry Potter Movie.

PATF was limited release in New York, and a month later it went nationwide in December, they should have just released it around Thanksgiving nation wide, not a limited release.

You know, learning this news of John Lasseter, one has to wonder if they did release TPATF and Winnie the Pooh on purpose on dates that gave it a disadvantage. Conspiracy theories may begin now

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:56 pm

SWillie! wrote:I think if the right project came along, he'd be behind it.

I think that's a myth. Most stories can be told in either medium. Sometimes, the nature of the story favors one medium in particular. For example, Wreck-It Ralph wouldn't have made sense as a hand-drawn feature due to the concept and the nature of the universe it takes place in.

However, even if hand-drawn animation was more suitable for a project, it still wouldn't be chosen. Big Hero 6 as a comic book adaptation would have been perfect for 2D animation. It would have been a great project to explore a different style and look than the traditional Disney one and push the medium in a new direction that would capture the essence of sequential art and in particular that of the superhero comic book genre.

But what did they choose instead? CG. Doesn't that tell you anything?

TsWade2 · Post by **TsWade2** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:02 pm

Sotiris wrote:
SWillie! wrote:I think if the right project came along, he'd be behind it.
I think that's a myth. Most stories stories can be told in either medium. Sometimes, the nature of the story favors one medium in particular. For example, Wreck-It Ralph wouldn't have made sense as a hand-drawn feature due to the concept and the nature of the universe it takes place in.

However, even if hand-drawn animation was more suitable for a project, it still wouldn't be chosen. Big Hero 6 as a comic book adaptation would have been perfect for 2D animation. It would have been a great project to explore a different style and look than the traditional Disney one and push the medium in a new direction that would capture the essence of sequential art and in particular that of the superhero comic book genre.

But what did they choose instead? CG. Doesn't that tell you anything?

But, what about the hand drawn Mickey Mouse feature they promise, even though it's been shelved?

qindarka · Post by **qindarka** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:10 pm

disneyboy20022 wrote:
TsWade2 wrote:That's not funny! Can't you see I'm upset about this right now?
Yes I can see you're very upset, I'm upset too regarding this news. However I don't think calling Disney Bambi Reindeer Games is going to help much. I'm very pissed, upset and disappointed about John Lasseter. They should use both traditional animation and CGI, not throw away the traditional altogether. Why Did Winnie the Pooh not do well? They put it against the final Harry Potter Movie.

PATF was limited release in New York, and a month later it went nationwide in December, they should have just released it around Thanksgiving nation wide, not a limited release.

You know, learning this news of John Lasseter, one has to wonder if they did release TPATF and Winnie the Pooh on purpose on dates that gave it a disadvantage. Conspiracy theories may begin now

This is complete and utter bullshit. There is absolutely know way they would spend tens of millions of those films just to set them up to fail. They certainly don't hate hand-drawn animation, they just don't consider them to be profitable. And really, it's hard to argue with the numbers. Sure, the financial disappointments of TPATF and WTP may be due to marketing or quality of film of whatever but Disney are probably making an educated guess that hand-drawn films won't bring in as much cash, regardless of story or marketing. It's easy for us to say that they should make more hand-drawn animation when it's not our money on the line.

RyGuy · Post by **RyGuy** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:14 pm

Why didn't Winnie the Pooh do well?

Here are my "conspiracy" theories:

1. It's kind of boring. Even my kids (4.5 and 3.5) don't really like it. (They didn't really like it when they were 3.5 and 2.5 either).

2. It's too short; I didn't rush to see it a second time in the theater. I see almost every DAC and Pixar film multiple times at the theater - but not that one. It felt like I was pissing money away for just an hour or so of entertainment and again, I didn't find it all that entertaining anyway.

3. The name was stupid. I doubt the average movie goer realized it was a new movie. It was probably like, "Winnie the Pooh? Oh, I saw that when I was a kid. I'm sure it's on video." (Several months ago, I heard the woman sitting behind me tell her kid that Disney was "re-releasing" Frankenweenie as the stop-motion trailer was playing)

I think Winnie the Pooh would have benefited from at least one more segment and a name that made it clearer that it was not a re-release.

As for Tangled, I was not a big fan of the Rapunzel story or anything to begin with, but I was disappointed when they decided to make it CGI and I am STILL struggling to get over the title (it is so STOOOPID). But that film "felt" more like a Disney movie than anything I've seen in years. It was definitely a game changer for me.

I'd still love to see a 2D feature, but I can live with CGI from here on out so long as they produce films that make me laugh, sing, cry, cheer, dream, hope, escape, wish, etc. - i.e., everything a Disney movie should be.

SWillie! · Post by **SWillie!** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:51 pm

For the love of god, can we stop bringing up conspiracy theories. That's seriously the stupidest $#!? I've ever heard. (RyGuy, this isn't in response to you - your "conspiracy theories" are spot on.)

Sotiris wrote:
SWillie! wrote:I think if the right project came along, he'd be behind it.
I think that's a myth.

Notice I didn't say "Disney" would be behind it. I said Lasseter would be behind it. I think Lasseter is an even bigger fan of all kinds of animation than any of us here, and he would love nothing more than to be able to create films using both mediums. But again, he's still just a cog in the wheel. A giant cog, no doubt... but still a cog. I get the feeling some people here think JL gets some sort of sick pleasure in the demise of traditional animation. I really don't think that's true.

However to an extent I think you're right. For the company as a whole, at the moment, I think a hand drawn project would be a very tough sell, regardless of whether the story was a "better fit". But I really do think that, on the contrary to Disney's stance around 2005/2006, they are not "axing" traditional animation. No one, even Steve Hulett who started all this, is saying that this is "the end" of traditional animation at Disney. For the foreseeable future, sure - they very well may not have anything in current development. But I'm sure that at some point a project will come along that everyone can get on board with doing as a traditional film. Be that in two years, or five years, ten years... I'm sure it'll happen.

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:07 am

TsWade2 wrote:They can't give up hand drawn and new movie for Mickey Mouse. They just can't I tell you! Who gives a damn if PATF and Winnie the Pooh isn't box office hit. Because people are f***ing idiots! And now, Disney is being a chickenshit! I hate to say this, but John Lasseter, I HOPE YOU DIE IN HELL!

Haven't you been waned about your temper in the past? Your getting into death threat territory here and its embarrassing to every level headed user here. Knock it off. Get some fresh air, and some perspective.

TsWade2 · Post by **TsWade2** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:17 am

Kyle wrote:
TsWade2 wrote:They can't give up hand drawn and new movie for Mickey Mouse. They just can't I tell you! Who gives a damn if PATF and Winnie the Pooh isn't box office hit. Because people are f***ing idiots! And now, Disney is being a chickenshit! I hate to say this, but John Lasseter, I HOPE YOU DIE IN HELL!
Haven't you been waned about your temper in the past? Your getting into death threat territory here and its embarrassing to every level headed user here. Knock it off. Get some fresh air, and some perspective.

Sorry.

Brina78 · Post by **Brina78** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:34 am

Honestly, between TPATF and Tangled, I loved TPATF way more. Not because it was 2D animation, I just loved the writing, the characters, the music, and the songs. Tangled was just okay to me, I loved the lantern scene, but that was about it. I'm not a huge fan of princess movies to begin with, so it really did not grab me.

As for hand-drawn animation dying, I can see it happening in this day and age. My dad almost got hired at Disney because of his brilliant artistic skills, but he didn't want to make the move to Burbank. This was back in early 1990 just after The Little Mermaid wrapped and they were working on The Rescuers Down Under. When he heard they let go a lot of the employees in the traditional art department, he knew he was going to be one of them since that's the area he's the most skilled in.

It's very sad news since many of us grew up on the 2D classics, some of which were fortunate to see in the theater as a re-release or for the first time.

TsWade2 · Post by **TsWade2** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:40 am

Everyday is bad news for Disney, thanks to that crappy negative animation blog. Now I'm starting to have trust issues with John Lasseter. Why can't he just give hand drawn another chance? I just don't think he's fair on this. Or maybe this is a lie. Maybe that jerk from the blog just made it up to makes us go bonkers. Why can't we do something about it? I want to Disney back to normal. Why can't they listen to us Disney fans and obey our command? I don't understand.

qindarka · Post by **qindarka** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:45 am

TsWade2 wrote:Everyday is bad news for Disney, thanks to that crappy negative animation blog. Now I'm starting to have trust issues with John Lasseter. Why can't he just give hand drawn a chance? I just don't think he's fair on this. Or maybe this is a lie. Maybe jerk just made it up to makes us go bonkers. Why can't we do something about it? I want to Disney back to normal. Why can't they listen to us Disney fans and obey our command? I don't understand.

Animated films cost a lot. Giving hand-drawn a chance and having it take a place of a CG animated movie, which is more likely to be profitable, could potentially cost them hundreds of millions. And there really aren't that many fans who are clamoring for hand-drawn films, just fanatics like us.

TsWade2 · Post by **TsWade2** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:51 am

qindarka wrote:
TsWade2 wrote:Everyday is bad news for Disney, thanks to that crappy negative animation blog. Now I'm starting to have trust issues with John Lasseter. Why can't he just give hand drawn a chance? I just don't think he's fair on this. Or maybe this is a lie. Maybe jerk just made it up to makes us go bonkers. Why can't we do something about it? I want to Disney back to normal. Why can't they listen to us Disney fans and obey our command? I don't understand.
Animated films cost a lot. Giving hand-drawn a chance and having it take a place of a CG animated movie, which is more likely to be profitable, could potentially cost them hundreds of millions. And there really aren't that many fans who are clamoring for hand-drawn films, just fanatics like us.

But that can't be true. People are idiots!

qindarka · Post by **qindarka** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:56 am

TsWade2 wrote:
qindarka wrote: Animated films cost a lot. Giving hand-drawn a chance and having it take a place of a CG animated movie, which is more likely to be profitable, could potentially cost them hundreds of millions. And there really aren't that many fans who are clamoring for hand-drawn films, just fanatics like us.
But that can't true. People are idiots!

They are not idiots. This issue isn't really all that important, most people, rightly, don't take this one hundredth as seriously as we do.

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:56 am

While I understand that a hand-drawn feature is deemed too financially risky to be pursued, I don't get why they have stopped producing hand-drawn shorts. It would have given traditional animators work to do and it would function as a forum where the medium could be explored and advanced. It would have kept 2D alive at Disney without having to worry about box office numbers.

Out of the 7 shorts (excluding the Prep & Landing ones) produced under the Lasseter administration, only 2 of them were hand-drawn. And it looks like there aren't any more in development. There's really no excuse for that.

Speaking of Prep & Landing, that was a project that could have easily been produced in 2D. It was a low-risk project that had a small budget. In fact, 2D would have been ideal to create the nostalgic, intimate feeling and atmosphere that Christmas specials have.

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