Keep Lumpy In The New 2011 Winnie the Pooh Movie!

[Escapay]

Neal, don't leave. There are so many reasons a person can decide to leave UD, but believing that they're annoying others because they like to make lists and keep things organised definitely should not be one of them. After all, there are a wide variety of posters at UD ranging from all walks of life and intellect all over the world. Even if you feel your fish isn't as big as you're used to, it's something you'll have to learn to adapt to in both the virtual world and the real world.

Stick around, the forums always go through different phases and seasons and hopefully it'll just be a matter of time before it's in a place where you'll feel comfortable posting again.

albert

[Elladorine]

I'm a bit late coming in here, but I agree with Albert. I've spent a lot of time in communities such as these (I've actually been at this particular one since around 2003) so I've witnessed all sorts of changes a forum and its members go through over time.

Neal, just because you feel your opinions differ from others and that you like to make lists and such is no reason to believe you're annoying people, and certainly no reason to leave. I may not always comment, but I've found many of your threads and posts not only enjoyable, but helpful.

It's true that we won't always have the same roles wherever we go, that we won't always be the big fish in a little pond. I think it's something most of us go through at one point or another, but it's no reason to back out and give up on finding your place.

All you can ask of yourself is to relax, have some fun, and just be yourself. Besides, if everyone agreed with everyone else around here, we'd have absolutely nothing to discuss.

[pap64]

To contribute to what Escapay and Enigmawing have said when you join a fan forum like this one Neal consider the following:

- Watch what you say: I admit that I was a bit harsh to you earlier but I thought your comment about how the Disney were always art and didn't care about merchandise was pretty ignorant since history says otherwise. If you want to argue something that deals with history and fact its best to check what you say, otherwise people will tear you apart.

- Accept opposite opinions: In this thread it seems that it annoyed you that we had a different opinion regarding Lumpy. You have to realize that people WILL disagree with you on occasion. The only thing you have to watch out for is if people are insulting you and trolling the thread. Then you need to report on them because one thing is disagreeing with you, the other is insulting you.

- Accept people for who they are: Many of us have an unique intellect, sense of humor, charm and even way of posting. I've learned to accept people for who they are, even if I disagree with them.

I can't force you to stay. If you want to leave then fine. I don't worry about it since you never leave a site. It is a quick click away. If you want to take a break from it fine. The site will still be here.

[Disney's Divinity]

I don't really feel either way for Lumpy (mostly because I've yet to see Piglet's movie). But I'm not automatically think he's a bad character just because he wasn't a part of the original cast. If he adds something to the franchise that people like instead of being filler, I wouldn't mind him being included. This is why many of the background characters, like Gopher, Roo and Owl are seen off and on. Sometimes, they add to the story. Sometimes, they don't.

It's in the letter to Disney.

And this is a thread for Lumpy lovers. If you don't like him, don't sign the petition, but no need to tell me about it. I know there are those who don't like the character, but, there are those who do.

Frankly, none of this needed discussion. Either you sign, or don't.

I have to be honest, dude. This statement sounds as if you don't want to hear any comments that are opposite your own and don't want to back your own argument up and just want the opinions to "go away".

I disagree. To me, this topic seemed only to be about having people who like a certain character to know that there was something they could do to possibly save that character. An announcement, not really a, "Do you like Lumpy? You don't? Please explain," thread. There's already threads concerning the new Pooh film and all the other ones.

True, any topic on a discussion forum invites discussion, but different topics call for different types of discussion. It's sad because, from the first replies, this thread already had a very negative tone. Topics with bad tones don't invite discussion, but instead become bandwagons of criticism (and everyone who disagrees usually avoids the thread because it's not enjoyable to take on 5 or 7 people replying to you all at once). DTV, sequel, Miley Cyrus and HSM threads seem the most prone to devolve to that point. I think there's a way to have alternate opinions without being derogatory, antagonistic or sarcastic towards someone's thoughts.

[singerguy04]

I was going to say something as well, but for the most part Escapay, enigmawing, and pap64 said mostly what was on my mind.

Coming from someone who mostly lurks around and posts now and again, I understand where you're coming from. I actually joined the site my senior year in high school in '04, so basically the same time as you are now. The thing about UD is that a lot of people here are older and know much more than you on almost every subject. That's why a lot of them tend to jump down your throat whenever you post something that you kinda know something about but aren't a 100% sure. Some people on the thread do it to me still, but you just kinda have to let it go and realize that maybe you don't know everything on the subject. It's not anything to get upset about. In fact, it'll help you learn! That's another thing that you'll learn a lot about when you get to college. You don't learn as much in class as you do in failing, if that makes any sense.

All in all, being a lurker isn't so bad. Just never be afraid to post when you want. No one here faults you for posting your opinions or ideals, and if they do they are in the wrong and the rest of us will see that. I also would hate to see you leave to begin with. Many times I've found your posts to be very insightful and was honestly surprised to hear how young you were!

[pap64]

I have to be honest, dude. This statement sounds as if you don't want to hear any comments that are opposite your own and don't want to back your own argument up and just want the opinions to "go away".

I disagree. To me, this topic seemed only to be about having people who like a certain character to know that there was something they could do to possibly save that character. An announcement, not really a, "Do you like Lumpy? You don't? Please explain," thread. There's already threads concerning the new Pooh film and all the other ones.

True, any topic on a discussion forum invites discussion, but different topics call for different types of discussion. It's sad because, from the first replies, this thread already had a very negative tone. Topics with bad tones don't invite discussion, but instead become bandwagons of criticism (and everyone who disagrees usually avoids the thread because it's not enjoyable to take on 5 or 7 people replying to you all at once). DTV, sequel, Miley Cyrus and HSM threads seem the most prone to devolve to that point. I think there's a way to have alternate opinions without being derogatory, antagonistic or sarcastic towards someone's thoughts.

And I disagree. Just because you made a thread expecting to go one way it doesn't mean that people will follow it.

For example, I recently made a thread called "The King of the Hill Appreciation Thread". Note that in the title it says APPRECIATION, which means to speak warmly of something, being positive, happy and to show respect. Even though appreciation was in the title that didn't stop people from posting criticisms against the show. I disagreed with them and argued with them, but I didn't say "shut up this is supposed to be a good thread no negative thoughts!". I let it go on because for every good thing there is a bad one and vice versa.

The internet is one of the most opinionated places in the whole world. Whatever the subject if people have an opinion on it they will say it. That's the freedom the internet allows and sadly people's opinions aren't always pretty.

I've learned this the hard way. I've faced trollers, insults and arrogant attitudes. If you are experiencing too many negative thoughts you can do one of the following:
- Disagree with them and argue them with concrete facts. Picking your battles also helps.

- Ignore the comments and focus on the good things.

I understand that sometimes you get tired of the angst and just want to have a fun discussion, but the sad truth is that the internet doesn't allow it. You have to accept it. If you want to take a break from it fine but running away will not change people.

Neal, and everyone else, remember, if you love and cherish something and everyone else is crapping on it its best to ignore it and keep enjoying it. I love the Wii, but many people hate it because its apparently killing gaming. blackcauldron85 loves the current Disney Channel, Corbin Bleu and High School Musical and yet she doesn't stop enjoying it simply because many of us disagree with her.

Again, I apologize if I sounded condescending when debating about Disney and merchandising. But next time, if you are going to claim something Neal its best to do a little research because in the internet people WILL jump on your throat if you are wrong.

[Neal]

*whoosh*

*Out of the darkness and shadows I come...*

papa64 - I don't think - no, I know - there isn't a right or wrong in this situation. Have you ever or do you work for Walt Disney Animation Studios? Only then could either of us or anyone on this forum know whether or not the movies are made for commercial reasons more now than before.

Unless both of us or any of us have worked at Disney since 1937 would any of us be able to know that - having worked on all 48 canon films so far, and working on the upcoming 4, we would know the mindset behind each film and how it has changed over time, if at all.

Being as no one here and neither of us have, than, there is no right or wrong. It's a subjective opinion whether or not the films are being made to sell toys and product more now than ever before. Being as no one around these forums has worked on films since Walt's time and seen the progression of attitudes from the golden age to silver age, dark age to renaissance, second dark age until now - the so-called second renaissance - no one can claim with certainty whether or not the films were once made with higher regard to just making a movie rather than making a movie to sell merchandise.

So, no, I wasn't "wrong". People jumped down my throat because they didn't share my opinion, but no one has actually presented verifiable proof against me. Where's the documentary, biography, press release proving your claim that I'm wrong? Show it to me and than I'll shut up. Until that time, both of our opinions are subjective - making "right" and "wrong" moot.

*...back into the depths of darkness I go!*

[Elladorine]

Regardless of whatever the intentions may be of the execs that greenlight the animated films in questions and whether or not it's about selling merchandise is a moot point. It doesn't change the fact that the hundreds of people working on those films are doing so because they love film making and animation, and are most likely extremely passionate about how they contribute to them.

So maybe the execs and merchandising people are dreaming about how much money they're gonna make off the upcoming Tiana Barbie dolls & princess-related material, frog plushies, and the like, but do you really think the animators, script writers, story board artists, color key artists, voice actors, sound foley people, etc. put much consideration into that? Even if they're dictated by the execs to slant characters and situations in certain directions in order to make them more marketable, it's all about appeal, and putting together the best, most appealing film possible is all just part of the job.

So even though animation remains an art form, in the end it is still a business and is something that *has* to make money in order for the company to survive. It's the only way they can continue to make the animated classics that we as an audience have come to love.

[Neal]

Of course I understand that, and that's why I'm not against the direct-to-video films.

Sure, the overall purpose was to make money.

However, there were animators, storyboardeds, effects people, etc. who truly enjoyed what they were doing and wanted to do the best they could on the film despite their situation.

Yet, people bash direct-to-video films as if every person on staff was a slimy, money-grubbing jerk, not just the executives.

I'm not saying for a second that Andres Deja, Eric Goldberg, Don Hahn, or any of the animators or directors at Disney today care one stinch of an ounce less than those of bygone eras.

However, I am saying that executives got worse and care more about money today than the executives of the past - therefore, attempting to influence films more now than in the past.

[Elladorine]

Yet, people bash direct-to-video films as if every person on staff was a slimy, money-grubbing jerk, not just the executives.

Yet you appear to point out that you feel that Disney in general has reverted to being little more than a money-grubbing company which is reflected solely by merchandising, which is probably what got so many up in arms in this thread.

One of my friends used to be an animator for Disney. He worked on several DAC's since the mid-late 90's and also worked on The Tigger Movie. He said he thoroughly enjoyed his time at the studio and is not bitter about losing his job (he was one of those laid off when the traditional studio was closed down), but interestingly enough, still hasn't bothered to even watch The Tigger Movie. Although I'm sure he gave his all for it, he didn't have the same sense of pride working on it as he did on something like Lilo and Stitch, a favorite of his since it was such a unique and interesting story.

He's voiced the same attitude about the direct to video sequels that I do, that they seem cheap and were full of poor decisions, but in the end the artists that worked on them still gave their best shot. I've always carried the opinion that they should have been given the option to work on new, original material rather than sequels of pre-existing ideas, but I also understand why the execs went for them. And some of the sequels are obviously better than others, and I agree that they were getting much better over time. However, I'm not really sorry to see them go.

[Escapay]

Being as no one around these forums has worked on films since Walt's time and seen the progression of attitudes from the golden age to silver age, dark age to renaissance, second dark age until now - the so-called second renaissance - no one can claim with certainty whether or not the films were once made with higher regard to just making a movie rather than making a movie to sell merchandise.

Even so, comparing the marketing/merch schemes for Beauty and the Beast versus The Princess and the Frog, one can still formulate an opinion based on their experience, even if they weren't around to see the marketing/merch schemes for Pinocchio or The Jungle Book.

We obviously can't make opinions from the filmmakers' point of view, but we certainly can from the fans' and consumers', and even then, the opinion should only reflect our personal experience, not necessarily what we believe/perceive to have been what happened. And even then, to use a well-known-in-Doctor-Who-fandom phrase, "The memory cheats." We remember only what we want to remember, often giving it a rose-coloured glasses look back rather than what it really was.

People jumped down my throat because they didn't share my opinion, but no one has actually presented verifiable proof against me. Where's the documentary, biography, press release proving your claim that I'm wrong? Show it to me and than I'll shut up. Until that time, both of our opinions are subjective - making "right" and "wrong" moot.

Documentaries, biographies, even press releases all have a slanted opinion as well. There are two sides to every story, and there is no such thing as an objective biography, or even an objective documentary. They're made with purposes to inform/educate/entertain the viewer with a certain idea or theme, and sometimes they'll take into account and discuss the "other side" but for the most part, they want you to take their side. Look at Super Size Me versus the not-as-well-known-and-made-after-SSM Bowling for Morgan. Or to use a Disney reference, compare Dorse Lanpher's attitude in Dream On, Silly Dreamer versus his tamer self in The Little Mermaid: Platinum Edition. Watch the then-contemporary South of the Border with Disney and then read various Disney histories about the 1941 strike and how it affected Walt personally (which was one of the reasons he did the goodwill tour in the first place). Hell, even if you never saw it (and it's likely you didn't given Disney never gave it wide distribution), it's well known that The Sweatbox is blatantly honest about the troubling production of Kingdom of the Sun, something that is barely touched upon in the special features for The Emperor's New Groove (it only gets a selection of concept art and 20-second introduction).

Compare a Disney documentary on a contemporary film (like The Making of Atlantis) versus a Disney documentary on a classic film (like The Bare Necessities: The Making of The Jungle Book). The former (Atlantis) was made as the film was, so we've got a raw-but-organised look at how it was made. Then you've got the other (TJB), which amounts to nothing more than contemporary figures (and some of the actual filmmakers) pretty much praising the film and repeating back secondhand information, as most of them were not around for the actual production. If Disney were to make an Atlantis: The Lost Empire documentary 40 years from now, it would have a decidedly different tone than what we saw in the original documentary.

albert