Hand-Drawn Animation Dead at Disney

[Super Aurora]

If you like Japanese animation. I personally can't stand it!

How can you be so absolute? Anime is not one big homogeneous entity. It is very diverse both in visual style and in subject matter. There are anime that even resemble the Disney look.

Because he's xenophobic.

[TsWade2]

Can we all agreed that hand drawn is not dead? After all, hand drawn feature films is not in the works right now. It'll come back eventually.

[DisneyJedi]

Sad news: Disney has announced they no longer have plans to make any more hand drawn animated films. I adore hand drawn animation and how far Disney has pushed it over the years. Their art has been a large part of many childhoods, including my own, showing us how to convey great stories, great characters, and great art through animation. They have helped us grow, learn, and imagine beyond what we thought we could imagine. I connect these words to the end of any great artistic phenomenon, "I'll be back when you call me, no need to say good bye.

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[/quote]

Seriously, Doug? You too?

This is why people should read the whole article before assuming the worst.

[TsWade2]

I want to here what John Lasseter say about that. Maybe he'll clear things up.

[dollover]

How can you be so absolute? Anime is not one big homogeneous entity. It is very diverse both in visual style and in subject matter. There are anime that even resemble the Disney look.

Because he's xenophobic.

I don't like Japanese animation either, and I'm not xenophobic. I just have yet to see any Japanese animation that is anywhere near as fluid and graceful as Disney animation. Also most of their characters tend to have the same face with different hair; even male and female characters have the same face. Though I must admit Disney animation as of late hasn't been too much better about that with Ariel/Rapunzel/Anna. Even then I don't find Ariel and Rapunzel sooo similar- Rapunzel has a thinner face and her eyes are more almond shaped and her lips fuller. Only in the clip art does she have the big round eyes and thin lips of Ariel.

[milojthatch]

How can you be so absolute? Anime is not one big homogeneous entity. It is very diverse both in visual style and in subject matter. There are anime that even resemble the Disney look.

Because he's xenophobic.

Um...thanks? No seriously, I just love it when people give me a label, really makes my day. Golden rule buddy, golden rule!

I don't like anime because I don't. Yes, I'm sophisticated enough to know that there are different versions of it out there like there are different versions of American animation and no, it coming from Japan or not coming from the US has nothing to do with it. In fact I do have non-American animation that I really enjoy.

I'm just not a fan of what I've seen from Japan so far. And yes, I've been exposed to a lot of different anime in my life thus far. I realize it is popular with a lot of people in the US, including animators at Disney and Pixar. Despite that, I honestly have to say: I don't get it. Give me Mickey Mouse of Bugs Bunny any day of the week, that is more my cup of tea when it comes to animation.

I don't like Japanese animation either, and I'm not xenophobic. I just have yet to see any Japanese animation that is anywhere near as fluid and graceful as Disney animation. Also most of their characters tend to have the same face with different hair; even male and female characters have the same face.

You hit the nail on the head my friend! I just feel like once you'e seen one anime character, you've basically seen them all. I just feel like it's cheep. It also bugged me that the mouths never were in sync with the words coming out of said mouths. I used to think, "Well, it's probably just because it was made for Japanese and was translated to English." Then I saw some titles in Japanese and they still didn't match up with the words! And from what I've seen, it's all like that. I also don't much care for most of the color tones normally used in these films. It's just so drab! And I agree, the movements are just not that fluid.

I'm also not a fan of the stories told there. I remember watching "Spirited Away" and just feeling that it was so odd. And so much of it is just like that film. Anyway, I could go on and on, but the point being, I miss hand drawn and don't count the stuff coming out from Japan.

Well, if you don't care for anime, the European studios also do plenty of hand-drawn work. If you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend The Illusionist, which is an absolutely beautiful hand-drawn animated film from France. I also hear the upcoming "Ernest & Celestine" is great.

Thanks for the suggestion, I may have to try those. For me, Europe has been hit or miss. "The Secret of Kells" I thought was a bit odd, but I found I enjoyed "A Cat in Paris" more then I thought I would. So it's worth looking into, thanks!

[Neal]

Yes, all anime looks the same! I cannot stand it! The men look like women. The women like men. It is so cheap! Just look at how cheap and similar all these anime are:

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... It is too bad these all look identical. What is even worse is how they have no fluidity whatsoever. The mouths never sync up to the audio! All these plots were interchangeable. I seriously feel like I just watched the same trailer for the same film 10 times. Japan needs to stop with this mass-produced junk and start making art!

I need a tall cup of always original, always artistic Mickey Mouse to wash away the bitter taste of all this Japanese shit!

[dollover]

I should have been more specific. I meant the characters tend to look similar within the same movie; I know the character styles can range from movie to movie. However, I just watched every single one of those and they just prove my view that Japanese animation is not as fluid. Which one was supposed to show that it's just as smooth as Disney animation now? I was also only talking about hand drawn animation but if you wanted to make a point about Japanese CGI, you should have posted CGI cut scenes from Final Fantasy games or something because that last one Oblivian Island has vastly inferior CGI to Pixar and Disney. Story wise, I'll admit Japan can be more unique but that does not always mean better to me. And many of Pixar's stories are just as original.

[PatrickvD]

I should have been more specific. I meant the characters tend to look similar within the same movie;

But that's the style of character design. In a Disney film, all characters are designed similarly as well. They have to fit within one style. Who can honestly tell Ariel's sisters apart?

[qindarka]

But that's the style of character design. In a Disney film, all characters are designed similarly as well. They have to fit within one style. Who can honestly tell Ariel's sisters apart?

Speak for yourself. And you dare call yourself a Disney fan. I can recognize each of them instantly on sight.

[Super Aurora]

I don't like Japanese animation either, and I'm not xenophobic. I just have yet to see any Japanese animation that is anywhere near as fluid and graceful as Disney animation.

And do you know WHY Disney's animation is more fluid besides budget and time wise? Because Disney uses very simple lines and shapes to form the characters in order for them to be animated more fluidly. If you had some details put on them(mostly on clothes and hair lines), it will time more time and difficulty to animate the characters more easily. Look at ANY Disney character and you'll notice how practically all of them have very clean and smoothed lines and shapes. Aladdin is probably best example. Also most anime are tv series, so of course animation wise, the movement is much more choppy in it's movement. But they provide in many some wonder detail especially in background.

Also most of their characters tend to have the same face with different hair; even male and female characters have the same face.

In come cases you're right with that aspect, especially with the whole moe culture that goes on with like shows like K-On or Touhou etc. Even I aren't found of those either. Shoujo is another example you may find those. However, majority of times in certain anime series, one character look completely different from another.

Though I must admit Disney animation as of late hasn't been too much better about that with Ariel/Rapunzel/Anna. Even then I don't find Ariel and Rapunzel sooo similar- Rapunzel has a thinner face and her eyes are more almond shaped and her lips fuller. Only in the clip art does she have the big round eyes and thin lips of Ariel.

As of late? This "characters look the same" thing been even back in Walt's days. Katrina and Cindy? Flora and the maid in 101 dalmatian? Can't forget Baloo and Little John(well little John was after Walt but you get the point lol)!

All in all it's all retain in a person character design style in which why similarity between characters happen. The is only so many types of characters you can make within as style before one of them end up apparently looking like another.

I'm just not a fan of what I've seen from Japan so far. And yes, I've been exposed to a lot of different anime in my life thus far.

I find that hard to believe, coming from you.

I realize it is popular with a lot of people in the US, including animators at Disney and Pixar. Despite that, I honestly have to say: I don't get it.

What don't you get? If I have to guess, it probably mostly your ignorance on the culture as you're example on Spirited Away later on in your post gives.

I just feel like once you'e seen one anime character, you've basically seen them all. I just feel like it's cheep

And that's why said "I don't believe you" when you said:

And yes, I've been exposed to a lot of different anime in my life thus far.

It also bugged me that the mouths never were in sync with the words coming out of said mouths. I used to think, "Well, it's probably just because it was made for Japanese and was translated to English." Then I saw some titles in Japanese and they still didn't match up with the words! And from what I've seen, it's all like that.[/quote]

Actually it is the former. I know Japanese and how to speak in Japanese. The way their mouth move in relation to their speech pattern is completely different from English. That's why you may think "even in Japanese their mouth don't move correctly". You're thinking in terms how you'd say or pronounce the words from an English stand point. English uses emphasize enunciation. It most easily noticeable when you have English improperly pronounce some Japanese words correctly.

I also don't much care for most of the color tones normally used in these films. It's just so drab! And I agree, the movements are just not that fluid.

What you mean by color tones? As for movement, see my post to dollover.

I'm also not a fan of the stories told there. I remember watching "Spirited Away" and just feeling that it was so odd. And so much of it is just like that film.

The movie is based on Japanese culture and folklore, it's pretty obvious you wouldn't like it because you think it was "odd".

Anyway, I could go on and on, but the point being, I miss hand drawn and don't count the stuff coming out from Japan.

And this is why call bullshit out on you. It's one thing if anime not to your likening. It's completely another saying you "miss" hand drawn-animation and don't count stuff from Japan as it. Whether you care for it or not, it IS hand drawn or 2d style drawn animation. No and, if, or buts. So, when drama queens here get all bawww and butthurt because their "precious" hand-drawn Disney animation isn't coming anytime soon and say "I WANT 2D animation back!!:(" and that someone here present examples OF still existing hand drawn animation and that includes Japan's, don't come in acting like that don't count. It really shows you're ignorance on subject matter.

You can dislike something yet still acknowledge it's validity. I'm not big on stop-motion, but I still acknowledge and accept it's form and important in animation and that it is a form of animation. Same deal here.

I should have been more specific. I meant the characters tend to look similar within the same movie; I know the character styles can range from movie to movie. However, I just watched every single one of those and they just prove my view that Japanese animation is not as fluid. Which one was supposed to show that it's just as smooth as Disney animation now?

uhh who claim they were as smooth as Disney (except maybe Studio Ghlibi)? You're comparing apple and oranges here. Also a lot of people like anime for it's story content or symbolic themes they have in conveying the message of the movie or show. which leads me to your next point:

Story wise, I'll admit Japan can be more unique but that does not always mean better to me. And many of Pixar's stories are just as original.

That's one of stupidest thing I've heard. Pixar stories are no more original than a particular anime or even Disney, and vise versa. It's all about you create and present that story.

[Sotiris]

Yes, all anime looks the same! I cannot stand it! Just look at how cheap and similar all these anime are.

Thank you for expertly illustrating what I was trying to say.

Japanese animation is much more diverse in style, design, animation, and storytelling that some people assume. You just can't generalize and call ALL of anime cheap, same-looking, with bad animation. It's simply not true.

Story wise, I'll admit Japan can be more unique but that does not always mean better to me.

More unique? That's an understatement. You can find anime for every demographic, in almost every genre, theme, and subject matter. Hollywood animation is woefully restricted to family entertainment.

[Elladorine]

You can find anime for every demographic, in almost every genre, theme, and subject matter. Hollywood animation is woefully restricted to family entertainment.

That's what got me interested in anime in the first place. Animation can do anything yet in Hollywood it's considered a family "genre."

[SWillie!]

To be fair to those who are arguing that all anime looks the same (not agreeing here, just making a point), it is true that a lot of the more mainstream anime, that are more readily available in the US, do often have a very very similar style and tone. Pokemon, Naruto, Ghibli, Dragonball, Cowboy Bebop, etc... do have pretty similar styles. And if this mainstream selection is all that you've been exposed to, it's easy to see why one might make this generalization. Heck, even in the title of one of the videos Neal posted it says "Obscure Anime".

That said, I think it's worth your while go and search out those more obscure examples, because as has already been illustrated, you'll find that "anime" encompasses many more styles and stories than you would think based on what is most popular here in the states.

[Super Aurora]

To be fair to those who are arguing that all anime looks the same (not agreeing here, just making a point), it is true that a lot of the more mainstream anime, that are more readily available in the US, do often have a very very similar style and tone. Pokemon, Naruto, Ghibli, Dragonball, Cowboy Bebop, etc... do have pretty similar styles. And if this mainstream selection is all that you've been exposed to, it's easy to see why one might make this generalization. Heck, even in the title of one of the videos Neal posted it says "Obscure Anime".

That said, I think it's worth your while go and search out those more obscure examples, because as has already been illustrated, you'll find that "anime" encompasses many more styles and stories than you would think based on what is most popular here in the states.

whatever you're smoking i want some.









To add what Sotris and Neal said, There's an anime that's practically IS the standard American cartoon style. it's called Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt.

[DisneyEra]

Speaking of Japanese Anime, we'll see at this summer's Comic Con & D23 if WDAS shows anything for Big Hero 6. Didn't Rich Moore say this at last year's Comic Con:

It’s a really exciting time to be at the studio because there’re great projects coming down the line that are also really different. Chris Buck is up next [...] Then Don Hall who directed Winnie the Pooh has a great kind of anime, action-adventure comic book story that’s coming up.

[PatrickvD]

But that's the style of character design. In a Disney film, all characters are designed similarly as well. They have to fit within one style. Who can honestly tell Ariel's sisters apart?

Speak for yourself. And you dare call yourself a Disney fan. I can recognize each of them instantly on sight.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. In case you aren't, please get out of my aura. You could have constructed a simple 'I disagree' instead of resorting to questioning my Disney fandom.

Makes me long for some kind of dislike button.

[dollover]

I don't like Japanese animation either, and I'm not xenophobic. I just have yet to see any Japanese animation that is anywhere near as fluid and graceful as Disney animation.

And do you know WHY Disney's animation is more fluid besides budget and time wise? Because Disney uses very simple lines and shapes to form the characters in order for them to be animated more fluidly. If you had some details put on them(mostly on clothes and hair lines), it will time more time and difficulty to animate the characters more easily. Look at ANY Disney character and you'll notice how practically all of them have very clean and smoothed lines and shapes. Aladdin is probably best example. Also most anime are tv series, so of course animation wise, the movement is much more choppy in it's movement. But they provide in many some wonder detail especially in background.

So you admit Disney animation is more fluid. And not all Disney characters are simple with simple clothing. The Beast was all hair and characters like Hunchback and Cruella had complicated and angular features.

As of late? This "characters look the same" thing been even back in Walt's days. Katrina and Cindy? Flora and the maid in 101 dalmatian? Can't forget Baloo and Little John(well little John was after Walt but you get the point lol)![/b]

Ok, I will agree that some Disney characters look alike even back then but I notice it way more in Japanese animation, because characters tend to look alike in the same movie. If their hair and clothes are taken away, they would almost be indistinguishable from each other. Almost all the characters in Ranma have the same face. Ashitaka and San look very similar in the face. Other Miyazaki movies have characters that look extremely alike as well. I am not saying it happens with every Japanese animated film ever, because no, I have not seen all of them but the ones I've seen, the lookalike thing really stuck out to me.

Actually it is the former. I know Japanese and how to speak in Japanese. The way their mouth move in relation to their speech pattern is completely different from English. That's why you may think "even in Japanese their mouth don't move correctly". You're thinking in terms how you'd say or pronounce the words from an English stand point. English uses emphasize enunciation. It most easily noticeable when you have English improperly pronounce some Japanese words correctly. [/b]

Ok, I didn't even complain about this one but if what you said was true, then the mouths would also look unsynched in live action Japanese movies too. I do not find this to be the case.

uhh who claim they were as smooth as Disney (except maybe Studio Ghlibi)? You're comparing apple and oranges here. Also a lot of people like anime for it's story content or symbolic themes they have in conveying the message of the movie or show. which leads me to your next point:

You implied it with your sarcastic remarks in your post with all the links.
But if that was not what you meant, then I apologize. I really was more talking about the Japanese animation style because storywise, they can be very solid and I do enjoy some Japanese animation for their stories. However, my problems with the animation style just detracts from the overall experience. Maybe that's shallow, but that's just how I feel. Any still frame of a Japanese animation might be very beautiful but once it movies, that lesser fluidity just distracts me.

Story wise, I'll admit Japan can be more unique but that does not always mean better to me. And many of Pixar's stories are just as original.

That's one of stupidest thing I've heard. Pixar stories are no more original than a particular anime or even Disney, and vise versa. It's all about you create and present that story.

I never said Pixar was more original than anime or Disney. I said it was JUST AS ORIGINAL, which means at least equally and not necessarily more. I also don't think that just because Japanese animation covers all genres makes their stories more unique, it just means that the medium is being used in a more varied and encompassing way. The uniqueness comes from the story, not the medium. And I do wish that American animation was not relegated to just family fare and in that respect was more like Japanese animation.

[Super Aurora]

So you admit Disney animation is more fluid.

Admit what? I never denied this to begin with lol I've always known this. I was calling out on MilojThatch on his ignorance on anime. I labeled him a xenophobic to humor me, but in overall contexts his posts usually when concerning foreign animation products, Japan's especially, give quite an impression that he is one. Whether he really is one or not I can't say for sure. I do know that he is homophobic. That been pointed out numerous times in this forum by other members.

And not all Disney characters are simple with simple clothing. The Beast was all hair and characters like Hunchback and Cruella had complicated and angular features.

They're still simple structural lines and still apply to basic overall shapes. The "details" on the example characters you gave are still simplistic.

Let me show example. We're use Beast in this case:
Here's Disney Beast:


And here's Dark Beast from X-Men(for relative similarities sake):



Look are the super amount of attention and details to the definition of Dark Beast body, muscles, and hair, Trying to animate every single detail of that in Disney fluid level would take a very long time. Majority of anime are adaption of the manga which usually does have the details artwork, and this is why in anime they create of different means and ways of animating a character which would(depending on said character) have shit tons of details on them. Akira, Hellsing, and Ghost in a shell comes to mind as example.

A second reason is that since anime usually adapt a manga series, they also have to conform to the original style of said manga to keep the consistency.

And 3rd reason is that certain characters sometimes have action moves or special attacks that probably won't work very well in a fluid movement to begin with, and would have to a take a different approach to it anyway like the infamous DBZ super speed hand to hand combat.

Ok, I will agree that some Disney characters look alike even back then but I notice it way more in Japanese animation, because characters tend to look alike in the same movie. If their hair and clothes are taken away, they would almost be indistinguishable from each other.
Almost all the characters in Ranma have the same face. Ashitaka and San look very similar in the face. Other Miyazaki movies have characters that look extremely alike as well. I am not saying it happens with every Japanese animated film ever, because no, I have not seen all of them but the ones I've seen, the lookalike thing really stuck out to me.

You are right some do have same face syndrome, like pokemon. And usually this applies to more beautiful characters. I currently have this beef on Bleach cause Kubo use to actually draw distinguish faces even on young boys and females. Now they all have the round head round eyes with derp face. but there are series out there where each character is drastically different from one another or that their detail in their looks is well define. But again also have to take in account of the person's drawing style too and that drawing pretty characters(especially when comes to females) some professional artist still adapt the same face syndrome technique because it's faster and easier. Example, my favorite artist and biggest influence, J Scott Campbell, Draws pretty much majority of his girls very similar to one another. Yet despite that, His art is still fantastic and the female characters still come out well done.

Actually it is the former. I know Japanese and how to speak in Japanese. The way their mouth move in relation to their speech pattern is completely different from English. That's why you may think "even in Japanese their mouth don't move correctly". You're thinking in terms how you'd say or pronounce the words from an English stand point. English uses emphasize enunciation. It most easily noticeable when you have English improperly pronounce some Japanese words correctly. [/b]

Ok, I didn't even complain about this one but if what you said was true, then the mouths would also look unsynched in live action Japanese movies too. I do not find this to be the case.

No, it wouldn't. Again it also depend on the anime too. I think you're thinking in pokemon's case which yeah their mouth's is shitty to begin with but something like I dunno Berserk or Hokuto no Ken, The mouths move more like how Japanese speak. Like disney animation, they also have their Voice actors do speaking before the animation process and for same reason Disney does it.

You implied it with your sarcastic remarks in your post with all the links.

what links? I didn't provide any links nor did I make any sarcastic remark to you.

But if that was not what you meant, then I apologize.

I don't know what you were angry with me to begin with lol.

I really was more talking about the Japanese animation style because storywise, they can be very solid and I do enjoy some Japanese animation for their stories. However, my problems with the animation style just detracts from the overall experience. Maybe that's shallow, but that's just how I feel. Any still frame of a Japanese animation might be very beautiful but once it movies, that lesser fluidity just distracts me.

That's fair and legitimate reason, and i respect that.

[qindarka]

Speak for yourself. And you dare call yourself a Disney fan. I can recognize each of them instantly on sight.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. In case you aren't, please get out of my aura. You could have constructed a simple 'I disagree' instead of resorting to questioning my Disney fandom.

Makes me long for some kind of dislike button.

I'm sorry. Was joking but they do tend t get lost in translation over text.