What's your religion?

[disneyboy20022]

Oh, and by the way, people, *this* 'joke'...
... was made up by me and not Lazario. Credits were credits are due, right?
Now you're calling my jokes 'silly' too?!

To be fair, he and Disneyboy saying I said that was probably their way of trying to criticise me and not you.

That wasn't to critisize anyone really....it was more I always wanted post that here but never had the chance or the right timing....oppurtunity knocks and all...

Also...this whole thread has been confusing...who said what to whom....this is worse trying figure out who said what in this thread more than keeping track of who betrayed who In pirates 3: At worlds end

[Super Aurora]

Even if the person just making a silly joke?

Now you're calling my jokes 'silly' too?!

[Black pearl]

To Lazario.

That's fishy. To say the least!

Now your statement is more structured, it is clear what you are saying. The answer is, that is exactly why we have missionaries. Fishers of men, not fishy. Mark ch1v17 “come, follow me,” Jesus said, “& 1 will make you fishers of men.”
Mark ch 16v15 He told us to go into all the world & spread the good word to all men.

Not really. You said you are a sinner, and if you didn't want to tell us what you're a sinner for - you should not have mentioned it.

Because I am not to proud to admit I am a sinner (pride is a sin) how does that give you the right to anything personal between me & God? It is easy to sin, for instance pride, a white lie etc, so we are all sinners. Romans 3v23. For all have sinned & come short of the glory of God.

you think you're qualified to judge

I am not judging, that is judging me stating that. I was making an observation. Unlike when you freely keep calling me things like hypocrite.

yours is getting irritating.

If it is irritating, I have repeatedly said before, you are welcome to not read it. No one makes you come into a thread about religion, of which you neither follow or understand or want to, you don’t come here to contribute or debate but attack mock disrespect ridicule & argue. But answering questions like yours gives me the opportunity to put my points & beliefs over to those that do want to hear.

And I don't appreciate the snide response referencing Pinocchio. You, again, are the one who brought it up.

Having tried to insult me in your posts so much, I am amazed that you were offended by my nosey JOKE. It was not intended to be snide, but stating you were being nosey, & this being a Disney forum, I tied in Pinocchio as a joke, because of the size of his nose, & you being nosey.
I sincerely apologise for any offence this caused you, this was not my intention.

If you allow your eyes & ears to be opened, you will see what I am really saying, instead of what you see & hear about my beliefs too. If you had taken more than the maximum 31 mins to take in my last post AND type yours, you could digest more accurately what I really mean, instead of giving yourself an ulcer.

There is nothing in this post that is meant to cause offence either, although truth often does offend.

Finally, God loves you as much as me or anyone else, too.

The posts have got so confusing, about who said what, you can not be serious about that tiny issue.

I have now said all I have to say to you & anyone else who wants an argument rather than a discussion. Goodbye.

[Lazario]

The answer is, that is exactly why we have missionaries. Fishers of men, not fishy. Mark ch1v17 “come, follow me,” Jesus said, “& 1 will make you fishers of men.”
Mark ch 16v15 He told us to go into all the world & spread the good word to all men.

So you're admitting that you believe people will go to hell for what is not their fault. Children born into families practicing religions other than Christianity, worshipping "false Gods." They're just honoring what their fathers and mothers were teaching them. If someone tells them they are evil and what they believe is evil, yet their father and mother always treated them with love and respect when they earned it... why should a young person practicing another faith believe what you're saying?

You said you are a sinner, and if you didn't want to tell us what you're a sinner for - you should not have mentioned it.

Because I am not to proud to admit I am a sinner (pride is a sin) how does that give you the right to anything personal between me & God?

Again, for the 3rd time, I repeat: Black pearl wrote: "It bothers me that Jesus needed to die for my sake because I am a sinner"
You brought it up. You've already admitted you're a sinner. NOW you choose to be silent about it? That's what makes you a hypocrite. * So exactly what's the difference between telling us you've sinned and someone else knowing what your sin is? You obviously wanted someone to ask. When you say something like that on a board like this and take a holier-than-thou position, nothing is off limits. I'm afraid you should have outlined the rules before you entered this discussion.

Black pearl wrote: "It is easy to sin"
I think you mean: it's easy to be seen as a sinner, in someone else's eyes. By someone else's standards.

Black pearl wrote: "For all have sinned & come short of the glory of God."
I think you're already Priding it up enough for a couple hundred people. Ever stop to think that this overhaul routine of yours - apparently trying to make up for thinking either the country or quieter religious people lack the urge to preach your religion and values in a self-righteous and disrespectful way - and this desire to appoint yourself the board's official religious spokesperson is a way of making yourself stick out to God? If a simple lie is a sin, this preaching of yours is so Pride, it's absurd. And you are sinning it up big time.

Welcome to the Club. But you'd better start praying harder, if you intend to remain the one lecturing us.

* That and this:

Why does everybody keep wanting to shoot the messenger?

I thought you understood - and we were the ones who did not. Ask God to explain this one.

yours is getting irritating.

If it is irritating, I have repeatedly said before, you are welcome to not read it. No one makes you come into a thread about religion

That's funny. Though you know I have several beefs with Christianity, I wouldn't even blame the religion for what you're doing. Saying things like you have no control over what you're doing (Black pearl wrote: "I am doing as I am told and would not want to stuff it down peoples throats if I could")- an outright lie. But it's also why I have to tell you what you're doing is b.s. It's you who's the problem. You who has to walk around this board with religious avatar and religious signature, trying to attract this attention. And in defense of your religion, what do you do? You say you are qualified to tell "everyone" they are wrong (until they are like you). And now... that they have a choice to not read your posts telling them they're going to hell. Almost no one on this board has that kind of audacity. We don't understand? I think we understand beautifully. What a religion is and how a person uses it are two different things. You're using it to be a nuissance. You don't try to help people. You tell them that they can help themselves by being what you preach. By being you. While you tell us we're going to hell.

Black pearl wrote: "you don’t come here to contribute or debate but attack mock disrespect ridicule & argue."
Well, since you make yourself a walking Book, you should take no offense to it.

And I don't appreciate the snide response referencing Pinocchio. You, again, are the one who brought it up.

Having tried to insult me in your posts so much, I am amazed that you were offended by my nosey JOKE.

I didn't say I was offended. But I'm just a person. You're the mouthpiece of God (apparently) and you are not free from having the poor taste to make jokes when you're also telling us we're sinning. Serious business usually... right?

Black pearl wrote: "If you allow your eyes & ears to be opened"
B.P., I think you're asking me to open more than my eyes and ears. Because you can't face the fact that everyone here have been listening. What you really want is for us to forget all we've learned about manipulation.

And after all these years of talking about religion, people quoting the Bible... no one has answered my #1 question: how do we know what's written in the book really happened? How can we trust the word of these alleged witnesses? Where's The Bible... on The Bible??

People just take the book and say, it's nice. It wants to help you. That means: believe it. So what? What does that prove?

Black pearl wrote: "truth often does offend."
Stupidity does as well.

[Goliath]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

- Mahatma Gandhi (who was a Hindu, so he must be in hell)

[Disney Duster]

After working and attending the music festival, here I go to play catchup...

To everyone, but also to the specific names:

Goliath, I already explained before why God would not obliterate the devil. It is because the Devil tempts us and tests us and we must choose between him or God. Besides, God never obliterates anything. Everything's spirit lives on, in either Heaven or Hell.

By the way, it's not supposed to be that wars and natural things are caused by the Devil. God set things up a certain way, and then let them run their course. We can't do just anything, like we can't sprout wings and fly naturally, but he allows a lot of things, all certain things he decided to let happen, and yes, that includes some things that make us extremely sad and hurt. But it doesn't matter if we get extremely sad or hurt, it's about the extreme happiness that will come in the end.

And we do need to believe in God. If God came down and said “I’m God” and demonstrated his power, you would instantly do anything he wanted out of fear, not honestly wanting to believe and love.

At least you finally admitted you’re a cynic. But you do not have to believe all that, that people are inherently bad. Especially when, as we are first born, we are good. If you debate with me on that, I will not accept that, I will never view children as bad, so debating that with me will be futile.

Super Aurora, it is also my belief to say not "I think God exists" but to simply say that he does. To proclaim it. When you truly believe something, you believe it is true. And I still only leave it at that, I don't push anything.

However, I think I have caught you in something. You say I should not do that. You think that is wrong. That is what you believe. You believe that to do that is the right way. The good way. I told you you couldn't help but feel there is a way things should be, a good over a bad. And God would have his ideas of what's good, too, ideas that are true, and we believe they've been written in a book, which may have been changed by men and we have to figure out what his word is, which is why we have our hearts to do that with, to feel what is good, that God knows is good.

You may try to convince me not to do that, but then couldn't I say you're using propaganda? But I wouldn't, because I told you, it's not.

As for being hard to explain things, yes, explaining the soul which can't really be explained is hard to explain, ha.

I do not know if your story of how the Devil came to be is correct. I would have to talk to preists and research, and there's probably different versions of it different people believe, or maybe it's all in the Bible, but I'd have to read through that thing.

I'm pretty sure angels did have free will, otherwise Lucifer would not have been able to rebel against God, so, another reason I don't think that story's the right one.

But, if that version of the story was true, I can understand how the creatures God did give free will would be seen above beings that don't. That would mean that humans actually were above angels in a way, choosing to be with God out of love, being more like God in having the very ability to choose. It's not a son vs. a cat at all. And even after all that, if there were still some problems you had, the Bible only recorded some things from divine inspiration, if we don't understand it all, that's okay, I just trust it's something I can't understand. It's believing, once again.

I was not saying all crimes are evil, FYI. Especially when crimes under laws men made up is different from laws of God or what you personally believe is good.

I may need to add about Abraham: God asking him to kill his son would indeed have let Abraham make his choice to be more faithful to God, since it was the thing that led to his choice to be so faithful. He learned more about God and he learned more about himself, he went through the experience which changed him and got to take it in and learn from it, and by that extent, God needs to let us all have our experiences, even though he knows they will happen, we don't.

And we are supposed to have things in us, or perhaps just our bodies, that respond to bad things and tempting things, otherwise...we wouldn't be tempted.

So are you saying if a bear smells human food and is tempt to go eat it, it's a bad thing even though bears don't have the idea of good or evil?

No. I was talking about humans which have the understanding of good and evil and willfull, choosing souls to choose not to let their bodily instincts let them do evil.

In response to something else, I believe God is good, meaning I feel it is true, and I believe in the book which also says God is good, as I also believe in good in the world. Though how the world is does not completely effect my beliefs, I do not depend on the world for that. I depend mostly on my self, my mind, my heart, my soul, my faith. And I know you don't think that's the best, or it's "more right", but if the world and all people in it told you there was no point in living, you would have to go against that and believe that life is worth living, yourself. My beliefs do not depend on the world.

And c'mon, when I said if God made us we are probably like God in some way, we are still the highest known beings on Earth, the ones who are even aware of the universe including its black holes. Also, I believe I was made in God's image, but it still makes sense. I could understand animals, which are like us, and us being like God, would mean God is like animals, but only through that association, and we would still be the ones more like God.

And no matter how many times you say we're different from animals because of a higher functioning brain I still know there's more to it than that and will believe so, especially including the human soul, which can't be described.

I was saying humans are the center of the universe in more of a metaphoric, non-literal way. Yea, we don't know what else is out there, but until I see it, I'll still stand on what I said. Actually God is the center of the universe but that's not literal either...I don't think...

Believing in God and believing in aliens is different, especially when you would see an alien but God is not physical so you probably wouldn't literally see God, but maybe we would in a sense we can't understand. You see they are different, but if you wanted to debate with me that they are not that different, I would not listen, I will always know and believe they are different.

And you know what I mean when I say heart, not in the physical or literal sense.

When you listen to your heart on what you follow, when you follow your understanding of it, which things you think are right, if you think you should believe it, and if what you are doing, when you follow it, it makes you and others' lives better, if it helps you and others.

But non-religious people do that too.

I meant when you listen to your heart on what to follow concerning religion and beliefs and faith and spirituality.

It reminds me of my friend trying to escape her horrid family, saying we aren't considered human by the law until we're 18.

Wait WAT?
Is this person confuse with the word “human” with the word “adult”?

They did not mean it literally. It was an exaggeration to make a point and be humorous simultaneously.

By the way you made me even more interested in what you futuristic comic will be like because of this debate and your views. However, your posting with Jesus on the cross and what it said, all making fun of him as he's in pain, hurt me, and you're my friend...

Laz, believing in people to do what is right does have to do with God. Of course, that's yet another of my beliefs. But everything that's truly right has to do with God, especially when everything in existence has to do with God, for obvious reasons. What we believe in has bearings on our life here but most especially with our life after.

Also, there is what the world, or parents, or others teach us, and then there is our will, our mind, our soul which has it's own thoughts and decisions and those are what we use to truly choose to believe what we believe and be who we are. If you really just go with the flow and follow everything you ever hear or are ever taught ever, that too, would still be your choice.

When I say heart I often am trying to describe an indescribeable part of the non-physical soul, perhaps for emotion or strength of will, it's hard to describe, so I use heart. And I will never believe reality is so basic. Especially when believing is part of reality, it really happens...

Faith does have to do with what you do. You sometimes, most often do what you do based on your beliefs. And yes, your beliefs partly depend on what you experience, but your soul, your will, still thinks about those experiences and makes decisions based on them, and should also try to think on what is right no matter what people do or not. For instance, just because a lot of people have done bad things, doesn’t mean you should change your beliefs on what is the right thing for people to do.

No, I was saying that maybe there are some men who want to control women but that really doesn’t make any sense if men can just leave women and their kids. Women having babies either doesn’t effect men at all or it effects them badly by having to pay child support, thus men being against abortion would actually not serve men in any good way at all. Thus, they are not trying to control women, it’s about what they believe in and care about and feel is right.

When you have an abortion, you are not killing something that "might become human", it is human. It has human genes. It will not only not become anything other than a human, it is going to become a specific human, a specific person, though what really makes a person is their soul and will which thinks and chooses inside of their genes, and the belief is that that happens as soon as they are “made”, conceived, the genetic code is in place, deciding how their body will be.

A child does not have rights over the mother’s rights either. That a person has a right to kill a living human being, fetus or not, is being debated, I see it plainly as not right, but it’s still being debated, it is no fact it is a right. It does not go over all her rights, she does not have to keep it. If it’s her life vs. the baby's, then I am completely okay with abortion, and I might even be okay with other abortions and the right to choose, but for now I’m responding to what you were talking about.

I would have to research much more before I form a good opinion on whether I think the laws treat children not like people, and if those laws are okay or not.

You can’t decide if a pregnancy is good. It just is, though others can see it as bad. Deciding whether to abort is different from deciding if something is good or not, especially when pregnancies make people feel emotions, which are things you can’t decide.

As for saying the belief that there is a soul in the very beginning of a human’s life, at conception, is only a belief, well, so is that people are important, and that we shouldn’t kill them, also a belief.

That murder is bad is even decided for us. Sometimes beliefs in good things, like that unborn babies are people that shouldn’t be killed, must overcome things like “Well, I could give the baby up, but, nah, I’d rather kill it. I mean, if I look at it superficially, it’s just cells, even though that would mean I used to be just cells. Hm, when did I begin…? When did my soul come in? At the start of my existence, the existence of my cells, didn’t my soul exist, since that’s me? Or did God put it in when I had a brain? Didn’t my parents feel I was special when I was announced on the way? You know what I’m just gonna not think about that and just kill it.”

Rather, the truth is- people like me have considered something you haven't. Because I have no power to answer to by not believing, I can look around and see religion and the things that inspire it objectively.

No, I’ve done that too. And from that I still decided to believe. I still wanted to, and it still made sense. At least believing in certain things, the biggest things.

But seriously, I believe the opposite: people are bad, but can do good things. When I look at what's happening in the world, and I take a good look at history, I simply cannot believe man is basically good. I can't. And I'm not a misanthrope. I'm merely a cynic.

This one's important, Duster. Goliath's right.

In fact, without criticism of the roots of organized religion and how it's been used to create and govern civilization - people like you wouldn't be arguing that God's message is love and peace, not hate, war, and the things that lead us to both.

No, once again, this view is a belief. Even the kinds of movies you and Goliath like show what kind of ways you are. If you want to wallow in thinking life is dark and bad and perhaps even Godless, alright, it is your choice to wallow, but still a choice, a belief, not what is right or true. Because you can’t figure out what it right or the truth for sure. You just have to believe in it. And you just don’t want to believe in the good, in forever love or God because it’s hard. Like the thread Goliath recently started, you both give up.

George Carlin, well first of all I didn’t realize how evil he seemed until that first video. No matter your views, you can see he spits out negative, derogatory, and hateful speech. Even against women, when said he’s not against them. But he talks about them negatively and says they should wash out the stains in his underwear. He said people against abortion hate women, but I’d say he’s for abortion because he’s banged a lot of women, not because he’s attractive or has a good personality, but because he’s famous and makes a lot of money off of speech that makes people clap and shout and jeer, and he doesn’t want to have to pay child support for the countless kids he could have fathered, and he doesn’t want to take care of another human being, especially an "insignificant" little baby. His humor is black and empty like his inside probably is from not believing. He doesn’t think life is sacred, but he chooses to live anyway.

Also, I think he’s wrong on eggs that are fertilized getting flushed out. Once it’s fertilized, it’s supposed to go become a zygote, not get flushed out. People get pregnant extremely more often than not, because of this. I’m pretty sure he’s wrong on fertilized eggs getting flushed.

But even if he wasn’t, his logic sucks, though you usually have to dumb down and simplify things for humor. He says that because these fertilized eggs are flushed away naturally, that would make women murderers, but they’re not, so it’s okay to abort. With that logic, I can say people die naturally, so then it’s okay to murder people. It is only the fertilized egg that is going to become a person, or is already a zygote, that we don’t want to abort. Just eggs and sperm are not what we consider people getting murdered especially when, well, you can’t abort those things.

As for his Ten Commandments speech, once again he is misogynistic towards women, and he says certain things are all the same. It’s very easy to simplify things. Using his own logic, he could make one commandment: “Don’t do bad things”. That is pretty much what the laws are trying to conbey, though, don’t do things you feel are bad. But you may not feel they are bad, until you learn they are bad later, especially by learning that other people get hurt by things you didn't think would hurt them, so we have to be told. The Ten Commandments has to be more clear, and specify. George Carlin’s main problem in these is he is not thinking. The Bible couldn’t have said “Honor your mother and father only if they do things you know for absolutely sure are okay”. You would naturally think “of course if my parents are bad, I don’t have to obey them.” In fact, it just says to honor them, you don’t have to do everything they say but you can still honor them for birthing and raising you. That’s just one example, apply it to the other things he said.

I also have realized that usually you make humor, specifically stand-up, and addictively watch humor, specifically stand-up, when you are depressed, and also especially when atheist. Most stand-up is black and negative, trying to get a laugh out of the empty hole you feel the world is from not believing in better things, good things, God.

Bill Maher, yet another one who, because it’s comedy, has to dumb down and simplify things to make it funny. God is not physical. Of course you can’t figure out how he works and everything. He is doing what Goliath is doing which is…

Goliath AGAIN…you are a hypocrite. You say that a supreme being like God would be impossible to understand, but then you think your ideas with your limited human intelligence (despite as smart as you are) should be applied to him and the ideas of the Bible. The Bible simply tells us more things about God, and we are not supposed to fully understand them, especially since they are supposed to be miraculous, impossible things only God can do. We cannot understand impossible, miraculous things. That’s part of why it’s amazing like the fact anything exists. Your supposed to believe it, not understand it. And yes, we realize that means we could get duped or whatever, but it’s taking a chance, just like you have to do with loving people. And anyway, some of us still use both our brains and our faith together, so we believe some things and not others, like don't believe anything that makes us miserable and we just can’t live by it.

You may also just be interpreting everything wrong. Think about it enough and it may finally make sense to you. Like how being forbidden to lie with men like women could actually have been because of making men feel bad by emasculating them or raping them or treating them like women or doing them when they aren’t gay, and not any of it is about actual gay people and love. That’s just one possible example.

Specifically about free will Goliath, God created, miraculously, beings that have their own free will and, in a way, are like God, because of this amazing ability, this spirit. God simply knows what we will choose, but we still chose it for him to know it. If you do not understand it, well, as smart as you are, you should be able to figure out that we make choices, and God simply knows what they will be, but he decided to make us and our free wills and let us choose anyway, and who knows why, but I’m certainly glad to be alive and make my own choices that God has just foreseen I will do. It’s a great thing God has done.

By the way if you want to talk about anything negating free will, science would probably do that. Science, which only examines what it can see, and especially if it thinks everything came randomly from an explosion and evolution without any spirituality of a soul, probably wouldn't believe in something as miraculous as a free will, that we can choose or that we have a will. I do not know, I'm saying probably. Scientists would have to believe in spirituality and wills along with what they can see and examine.

And yes, God did sacrifice himself as Jesus. God decided to become like us for 30 years. Some people say it was to see what it was like to be human. He could have just made himself know already, but by actually becoming human we saw it too and understood it better, and then of course he died for our sins this way. Sounds pretty cool to me.

Scarred4life, God allowed sin to happen. God allowed the Devil to have the will to rebel against him, God allowed people to have free will to choose to do bad. Yes, everything in the world God made exist, so he let sin exist, but he didn’t make us choose it, he created our free wills, which, of their own accord, chose sin.

Black Pearl, you are interpreting the Bible for everyone. All we have to do is read the Bible and figure it out for ourselves, and perhaps choose the right church for us that agrees with our interpretations. One example is here:

You shall have no other God but me: That means he is your only God & 1st love. If you idolise, worship or adore something more than him, you are putting something before him.

What the, that commandment does not specifically say that. You are saying that, you are interpreting God’s word for us and that is not what we have to believe, we just have to look at God’s word and what it says to us.

Super Aurora, Christianity is not hypocritical. It preaches goodness and kindness. If you do something that is not good or kind, you get what you gave, the opposite of good and kind. If you don’t want to be good and kind, you go to a place that is not good or kind to you. The idea is, if you are not good and kind, you will experience pain that you made yourself. Being not good and kind will make you feel pain. The idea of fire may be more metaphorical than you think. Maybe we’ll keep getting chances to get out of Hell. That’s something I believe, but you also have to think about, if we do things without consequences, what will that do? Hell is simply a certain consequence for certain actions. As for not believing in the right religion, that’s only if you feel which religion is right, and yet you still choose not to believe in it.

When you ask forgiveness, you only get forgiveness if you really mean it, if you are really, truly sorry for your sins. That is where you Super Aurora and Goliath are missing it, that you have to be truly sorry for your sins and you plan on not sinning anymore. It is only cynics who don’t really believe or are not really sorry that think they can just “say” they are sorry and get away with it.

One big main point you are missing is that it probably goes that if you feel it is wrong, and yet you do it anyway, that is why you are punished. If you steal, to feed your family, you simply ask for forgiveness for the act of stealing, not the act of feeding your family, or you decide that you did not sin, because you needed the food more than the others. It also comes down to, do you feel you did wrong because God didn’t want you to do it, and he knows it’s wrong even though you don’t think so. It’s about what you personally feel is wrong or right, and if you do wrong while you still felt/knew it was wrong, then you get punished, then you get sent to a place for people who do bad, who shouldn’t be with those who do right.

As for Christians murdering, there is murder that you do for yourself that God doesn’t approve of, and then there is killing in war (which is debated as murder, especially since it is not against the law according to every country in the world which have all participated in wars) which God did approve of. Once again, it’s about if you feel it’s wrong or not, even if you feel it’s wrong because God says so and you know he knows more than you and you don’t understand everything.

Goliath, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong on God controlling anyone’s will, ever. I don’t ever remember anyone in my strict Catholic faith telling me God controlled the Pharaoh’s or anyone’s will.

Lazario, what you said about children and dying before you confess was really thinking, and it was what I was lately thinking about, too. I think children may be more likely to go to purgatory in more cases, but what it comes down to is if the children choose not to love God and choose to be bad, then they would go to the place without God, or love, a place that is bad. I do not know if children fully understand enough to do this, though, in which case they would probably go to purgatory as I said. I’m not judging any children, I’m leaving that up to God. But personally I would never believe children would do that, I don’t think I’ve met any children that did the intentional evil I was speaking of (even those who bullied me, I forgive them), and so I think it would just be purgatory, and then they may get the choice to be good there, and then they could go to Heaven.

Super Aurora, if you made everyone, and people were worshiping you in a way that you knew you weren't, you may get mad and jealous, too. I am only saying think about it, not that that's definately it.

Goliath, Black Pearl is not just spewing quotes, she is also telling how they apply to what you are talking about.

Lazario, well, the things in the Bible do correlate with history as well, and you know, we can't even prove history happened, either. We have evidence and writings on history, that's it. We have evidence of floods and evidence of Jesus but it was written long, long ago when we didn't have photos or anything. But yes, you still have to believe it. Because you want to, and think it is right. You can say "whatever" to life and believing in anything and then be "whatever" yourself, or you can believe.

After all that we have been discussing, I thought a long time over everything. A few nights ago I felt sick from festival food, and whenever I feel sick, I can't overthink things. So I depended on how I immediately felt, and what I immediately thought myself.

And it was, that there was God, that he loved me, and that he wanted me to be happy here on Earth, the ways that make me happy, including, I think, being gay.

I also love Jesus, and I like having the Bible. I know it evidentially may have had things in it changed by men, but I believe God and Jesus' word is in there some where. You all like things but don't always like every single thing in those things, so I can to. In fact, you all like things that sometimes seem the opposite of other things you like, like contradictions, but amazingly you still like all those things.

But Jesus said all rules come from the one: Do unto others as you would have them to do you. Which, for me would include loving a man as I would want him to love me. Maybe that isn't what he meant, but that says it to me.

I don't know about Hell. My priest said it's where God isn't, and because you are without God, it is painful. You are sent there because you don't love and don't want to be with God. When I felt without God, it was painful, and when I believed again I was better, but it was when I believed in the God I felt was right, the loving, very kind one you all think he would be, who would want me to be happy on Earth. One who forgives us. Maybe more forgiving than some things the Bible says leads us to think, maybe we have to be really evil and really want Hell to actually go there.

[disneyboy20022]

Disney Duster - I have a question....what about movies that have some dark elements that people say is the work of the Devil. surely me going to see Pirates of the Carribbean, Clash of the Titans, Percy Jackson, Star Wars and even Princess and the Frog or Sleeping Beauty arn't against God's laws as long as I don't act on the evil character like I don't go try to do voo doo after seeing Facilier's main song...I always thought that as long as you don't act on the movies or worship them? What's your opinion on that as a fellow Christian. And I mainly watch movies where almost 98% of the time there's a happy ending for the good guys and evil or dark is defeated such as Facilier gets defeated for trusting dark forces or defeating the Dark Side of the Force?

Also with all due respect I would just like to hear Disney Duster's Opinion on this before someone else comes up and says something...I already know that Black Pearl that you have said these things are evil and in we shouldn't watch them....but I always have felt that as long as you don't go practicing the dark stuff that's in the movies and I as I stated watch only 98% of the movies where the good guys prevail...

[Super Aurora]

Super Aurora, it is also my belief to say not "I think God exists" but to simply say that he does. To proclaim it. When you truly believe, something, you believe it is true. And I still only leave it at that, I don't push anything.

Ok sure but don’t expect yourself not to get in debates on that cause, that’s a pretty declarative proclaim you’re making.

However, I think I have caught you in something. You[/u say I should not do that. You think that is wrong. That is what you believe. You believe that to do that is the right way. The good way. I told you you couldn't help but feel there is a way things should be, a good over a bad. And God would have his ideas of what's good, too, ideas on good that are true, and we believe they've been written in a book, which may have been changed by men and we have to figure out what his word is, which is why we have our hearts to do that with, to feel what is good that God knows is good.

Can you word this better as I’m confuse what you are trying to say or point out here.

u may try to convince me not to do that, but then couldn't I say you're using propaganda? But I wouldn't, because I told you, it's not.

I not convincing you anything. I’m pointing it out by context.

I do not know if your story of how the Devil came to be is correct. I would have to talk to preists and research, and there's probably different versions of it different people believe, or maybe it's all in the Bible, but I'd have to read through that thing.

I'm pretty sure angels did have free will, otherwise Lucifer would not have been able to rebel against God, so, another reason I don't think that story's the right one.

But, if that version of the story was true, I can understand how the creatures God did give free will would be seen above beings that don't. That would mean that humans actually were above angels in a way, choosing to be God out of love, being more like God in having the very ability to choose. It's not a son vs. a cat at all. And even after all that, if there were still some problems you had, the Bible only recorded some things from divine inspiration, if we don't get it all, that's okay, I just trust in it's something I can't understand. It's believing, once again.

I forgot if it was free will or soul. It’s one of them. But the story isn’t JUST in bible. It’s also in many other Jewish scriptures. It talks a lot about hierarchy of angels, the names of vast amount angels and archangels, the 7 layers of heaven, and other stuff of Judea-christian mythology. It’s pretty fucking interesting. I could look up the stuff for you.

Actually God is the center of the universe but that's not literal either...I don't think...

Most likely he would be outside of it or something. Considering that the universe is constantly expanding at lightspeed even now.

Believing in God and believing in aliens is different, especially when you would see an alien but God is not physical so you probably wouldn't literally see God, but maybe we would in a sense we can't understand. And you see they are different, but if you wanted to debate with me that they are not that different, I would not listen, I will always know and believe they are different.

Of course in such they are different as an alien is another intelligent organism sentient life form like us in distant part of universe(aka mortal) where as a God or GOD is a supernatural and ambiguously abstract and hard-to-conceptualize being beyond mere mortal comprehension. It’s much harder to prove God exist or does not exist but aliens are much easier to prove it does exist.

God set things up a certain way, and then let them run their course.

Deist believe that btw. Only difference is that God is neither good nor evil, and doesn’t meddle into humans’ affair akin to the stories written in the bible.

By the way you made me even more interested in what you futuristic comic will be like because of this debate and your views.

I was hoping you would catch on that, and yes many of what I talk about does in some way would be addressed in the series. Now since you had the time to make this huge ass post, why don’t you get back on our PM? LOL

However, your posting with Jesus on the cross and what it said, all making fun of him as he's in pain, hurt me, and you're my friend...

I only posted that up as a joke. By no mean i was intending to be mean. I have even laugh at nasty jokes about deaf and hearing impaired, which I’m one too. I tend to take a “sit back, relax, and enjoy yourself.” motto.

I apologize if you really didn’t like that.

Super Aurora, Christianity is not hypocritical. It preaches goodness and kindness. If you do something that is not good or kind, you get what you gave, the opposite. If you don’t want to be good and kind, you go to a place that is not good or kind to you. The idea is, if you are not good and kind, you will experience pain that you made yourself. Being not good and kind will make you feel pain.

You’re missing the point what we were saying by hypocritical. What you’re saying isn’t hypocritical concept. but the other factors that:
1.)God is all loving and good, yet is jealous one and could send you to hell.

2.)God is testing your faith and belief in him yet already design everything in concept and our lives before time started.

3.) not to mention that science has debunk some of the bible. but again bible CAN be reinterpreted metaphorically, but still...

The idea of fire may be more metaphorical than you think. Maybe we’ll keep getting chances to get out of Hell. That’s something I believe, but you also have to think about, if we do things without consequences, what will that do? Hell is simply a certain consequence for certain actions. As for not believing in the right religion, that’s only if you feel which religion is right, and yet you still choose not to believe in it.

Most likely Hell is very metaphorical. I ask my mother, who is catholic, about her view about it, and she said that hell is possible to be very abstract concept of .....emptiness or something along that. It was pretty interesting thing think about though.

Super Aurora, if you made everyone and people were worshiping you in a way that you knew you weren't, you may get made and jealous, too. I am only saying think about it, not that that's definitely it.

True by human concept we would. But this is GOD, an almighty, powerful being and is omnibenovolence- by christian concept. The jealously seems out of characters given the establish description of God by Judea-Christians.

This is also why I’m a deist as I stand by a more naturalistic and more relativity perception how God, one above all being, would be.


I will say though that Duster is much better and mature at debating and defending his statement than Black Pearl does. Which is why I enjoy debating with him.

Also duster, Carlin is dead. And he only make a comedic joke behind the stuff he says. But even when you broke down that stuff he said in your post, he does bring up valid points, although abit black and dark humor. This is what Goliath was pointing out.

[Disney's Divinity]

(to Super Aurora)
If you debate with me on that, I will not accept that, I will never view children as bad, so debating that with me will be futile.

This isn’t really concerned with the debate exactly, just something kind of random I was thinking about as I was reading. I remember when I was taking a Sociology class a little while ago, it mentioned something about how the perception of children changed with Industrialization. I can’t recall all the details (I wasn’t particularly excited to be in that class), but it mostly said that before the Industrial Revolution, children were considered innately bad and had to be “honed” to be good. (The change to a belief that they’re innately good seem to be tied to the fact that children were more of a luxury/expense, than a requirement to survive anymore).

Anyway, that wouldn’t change your belief that they’re innately good, of course, but I thought it was interesting that that idea has been tied to societal changes over time. And I kind of agree with you, in that I think children are largely innocent until they become self-aware. Children of course do bad things, but I don’t think they’re as accountable until that point that they become self-aware (which, for most people anyway, seems to come around puberty). I think children are more intensely a product of their environment, moreso than adults (adults are also affected by their environment as children, but self-realization allows them to recognize the flaws that may come with that).

That may just be partly based on my experience though. I remember a period in middle school that felt like a transformation, once you recognize who you are, what you do, etc..

As for whether man is basically good/bad, it almost seems like a "Is the glass half full or half empty?" type of question. I personally think every person is an infusion of bad/good, not basically one or the other. People are generally self-centered, and it's impossible for anyone to escape that (because it's hard to ever see completely beyond yourself). But I think people (most people) try to do good, but it's often too easy to be/do/allow bad. I guess it's tied to the idea of trust. I trust that people will mostly do the right thing, but there has to be precautions for the worst.

I hope that wasn't unintelligible.

The idea of fire may be more metaphorical than you think. .... I don't know about Hell. My priest said it's where God isn't, and because you are without God, it is painful.

Have you ever read a book called The Power of Myth? I remember it had an interesting idea (or maybe it was a story that wasn't included in the Bible that it was talking about, I need to go re-read) about the Devil. It was saying that as an angel, he became the opposer of God after God created humans. God asked him to bow to his children (humans), but the Devil would not (he would only bow to God; I'm guessing because humans are imperfect, whereas God is not). That was when God banished him, because he would not bow to God's children.

The way they describe is really quite sad (and almost like a lover, in a way): the Devil's pain comes from being forever banished by the God he still loves, but can never be with again. And, of course, Hell is the absence of God. The story makes that the reason he hates people and also the God who he cannot be with. It was bizarre, but it had interesting concepts. It makes you feel sympathy for the Devil, someone who can never be saved (in the way that you would feel sympathy for anyone who's turned to evil when they could've been good).

[Disney Duster]

Disneyboy, that's a really good question and something I have and I've known some others on here to think about before. Seeing movies where evil happens is fine, seeing movies where evil (what the Bible says is evil) is treated as right and good would be bad.

In fact, sometimes I have even worried that my interest in fairy tales, where sometimes magic is treated as good, may be wrong. I have decided that that kind of magic is not really the magic the Bible speaks of, it is not the kind of magic you get from worshipping other gods that the Bible forbids, so I think it's like a fake magic that is only in movies and stories, it doesn't worship or come from other gods, so it's okay (fairies don't exist in real life, for instance).

But I do not know. But go with what you feel is right. Think about God how you think he is. Believe in what the Bible says that you think is right. I don't know...but I'm pretty sure even the Catholic church doesn't think you have to follow everything the Bible says, so you can decide what you want, you can decide what church to follow, even start your own church. Well, I think. I have to read the whole Bible...or do I? Heh. Just believe what you think is right, Disneyboy. I think you are right about the movie thing.

Super, cause I like calling you that, I was saying that you really do believe certain things are right and good. And God would, too. I can understand God knowing what's right, and forgiving everyone on Earth if they can't figure it out/do wrong when they are not entirely sure if it's right or wrong. That's about as not giving a damn as I think God would be. In fact, God giving a damn to what he creates will just always make sense to me, I'm surprised it doesn't to you.

Wow, there's supposedly seven levels of Heaven? I thought Dante's inferno talked about seven layers of Hell...

As for God being in or out of the universe, well, I would think he would be everywhere all the time, but by center, again I meant metaphorically. Albert Einstein believed in different plains, and one being a spiritual plain or something, Tim actually told me about that.

I completely agree on the alien thing, of course it would be easier to prove something physical exists.

I will get back to your PM when I can, which should be soon. Working, the music festival, and this thread has been taking up my time. I mean I just got back to this thread in how many days...

I tried to remove myself and laugh at that Unmotivational Poster Jesus joke and saw how it was kinda funny, but it still hurt and, I don't know, I thought you could have picked a less hurtful one, maybe a less making-fun-of-Jesus-while-he's-in-pain image. But no hard feelings, you didn't mean to hurt me. Thanks for saying sorry, too.

I am not entirely sure if a God wouldn't get angry or jealous. I just don't know. I think he would, but probably still be more loving and forgiving than the Bible indicates. It's hard for me to go on much more without going into some long-ass thing about what I personally believe, which, if I had to sum it up, I guess would be that I do what I truly feel and believe is right and I try as hard as I can to love God and he would be very...understanding. I don't know. Personally I don't think I do believe that anyone will really end up in Hell unless they are really, truly evil and want to be there, like they would really hurt God and the people in Heaven.

Ad for designing everything before time started...I think you missed or didn't get when I said I think giving us souls and free will was like making us like God, so our wills really are this amazing thing that can choose, God just knows about it, he doesn't make us choose, he just knows we will. But our wills also know good from bad (eventually, or whatever that is, whatever good or bad means to us), and if we choose bad believing that it's bad but do it anyway, well, why would he accept that?

I like what your mom said, and it sounds like it could be very close to right especially from my own experiences.

I looked up the word relativity you said you used to think about God and it said "dependence of a mental state or process upon the nature of the human mind." Well, our human mind wouldn't be able to figure everything about God, either, so thinking he would be a certain way... As I said, and you agreed, it takes the mind and faith. It's hard for me to explain why I don't think I'm just depending on my mind to think what I think about God, maybe I mean I don't only use logic, or maybe I mean since you can choose to use your brain or not, your soul is doing it and there's more to it than your mind, or maybe I mean I feel it. don't just think it. I don't know, I'm not making any conclusions, just expressing myself now.

Thanks for what you said about me being a debate partner! Yay!

I thought George was dead. I wonder if he did believe anything, though, because he was in Dogma.

Divinity, interesting stuff. And very intelligible, : ) I can't believe they viewed children like that. I'm guessing because of that a childhood was less happy back in those says, and that's really sad.

I hate the phrase product of your environment. People's souls find what they like and pick out what they like in their environment, the environment does not make them.

I never read that book. That was a very interesting theory on the Devil. I wonder if because those were God's children, not bowing to them was like not bowing to God, maybe they were more like God than the angels. If the Devil disobeys God, it's still not trusting God's knowledge, and not doing what would make him happy, and can be seen as not loving him. But I have wondered since I was younger about the Devil ever being reconciled with God.

I would think that's exactly what God wants in the end, for everyone to be with and love him. If it's our choice to not, then I understand, but...I won't get into another long post on what is good and what is bad and what is loving God. I'll just leave it at that God probably wants everyone to be with him and happy in the end, I think even the Bible says that.

[Goliath]

Goliath, I already explained before why God would not obliterate the devil. It is because the Devil tempts us and tests us and we must choose between him or God. Besides, God never obliterates anything. Everything's spirit lives on, in either Heaven or Hell.

Yeah, I know you already 'explained' it, but funny thing: I don't just accept a random guy on an internet forum as the definite source of knowledge when it comes to religion. I'm funny that way.

Your explanation doesn't make any sense. If the devil tempts us to do wrong, that's *exactly* a good reason for God to obliterate him. But you're contradicting both yourself and Black pearl. Because you say the devil tempts us to sin, but if God created everything, he also created sin. Black pearl already admitted to this, and Exodus contains a telling story in which God controls the thoughts and actions of Egypt's pharao, thereby negating 'free will'.

Would God not obliterate anything? Then what did he do according to the Old Testament, when he drowned everybody except for Noah and his sons (you know, in the Gilgamesj/Deucalion plagarised story).

I repeat myself: the whole 'devil'-theory was invented by the church when people started to ask difficult questions about the suffering they had to endure. Then the church would be able to say: it's not God's fault, it's the devil, and this way they kept people believing in God and in line. Karl Marx said it best when he said that religion is opium for the masses.

And we do need to believe in God. If God came down and said “I’m God” and demonstrated his power, you would instantly do anything he wanted out of fear, not honestly wanting to believe and love.

And why do you think people believe in God? It's *always* out of fear: fear that they're going to burn in hell if they don't. There's nothing noble or loving about that.

If you debate with me on that, I will not accept that, I will never view children as bad, so debating that with me will be futile.

Doesn't that go for all topics?

[Super Aurora]

Most of stuff there’s not much to argue back on so I can leave it at that. But there’s a few things I just want to point out on for you.

Seeing movies where evil happens is fine, seeing movies where evil (what the Bible says is evil) is treated as right and good would be bad.

Then you might not like my sci-fi series then.....

As for God being in or out of the universe, well, I would think he would be everywhere all the time, but by center, again I meant metaphorically. Albert Einstein believed in different plains, and one being a spiritual plain or something, Tim actually told me about that.

There is multiple planes of existence is what theory is. If believing God reside in heaven, Heaven most likely be in a totally separate plane of existence/dimension.

I will get back to your PM when I can, which should be soon.

I hope so.

Wow, there's supposedly seven levels of Heaven? I thought Dante's inferno talked about seven layers of Hell...

yeah. Angelology is pretty interesting even if I’m not christian.
here’s the names:

The First Heaven:Shamayim or Shamain
The 1st heaven, Shamayim borders the Earth and is ruled by Archangel Gabriel.
This is the lowest of the heavens. It borders our world and is thought to be the dwelling place of Adam and Eve. This heaven being the first and closest to Earth acts as a shading agent for the Earth.
This heaven has clouds, wind and upper waters. It is the home to two hundred astronomer angels who keep watch over the stars. To complete the visual picture of this heaven one would see legions of guardian angels of snow, ice and dew living in this vicinity. In the Apocalypse of St. Paul this region is called the "promised land." It is described as , "Now every tree bore twelve harvests each year, and they had various and diverse fruits, and I saw the fashion of that place and all the work of God, and I saw there palm-trees of twenty cubits and others of ten cubits, and the land was seven times brighter than silver".

The Second Heaven
Raquia or Raqia
The 2nd heaven Raquia is ruled by the Archangels Raphael and Zachariel, and, according to Enoch, it is within this heaven that the fallen angels are imprisoned waiting final judgment in complete darkness. This was at one time suppose to be the dwelling place of John the Baptist.

The Third Heaven
Sagun or Shehaquim
The 3rd heaven is unique for many reasons. According to Enoch, hell lies within the northern boundaries of the third heaven. Sagun (or Shehaqim) is ruled over by Archangel Anahel and three subordinate saraim: Jagniel, Rabacyel, and Dalquiel, and is the residence for Archangel Azrael, the Islamic Angel of death.
The northern region of this heaven has a river of flame that flows through the land of cold and ice, here the wicked are punished by the angels.
The southern lands are a bountiful paradise, thought to be the Garden of Eden, where the souls of the righteous will come after death. Two rivers, the river of milk and honey and the river of wine and oil flow here. This heaven if where the "Tree of Life can be found. The beautiful celestial garden is where all perfect souls go after death and is guarded by 300 angels of light. It was also recorded that the entrance to this heaven is a gate of gold.

The Fourth Heaven
Machanon or Machen
The 4th heaven Machanon it is ruled by Archangel Michael, "Is the site of the heavenly Jerusalem, the holy Temple and its Altar" (Godwin, p. 122). It is here that, according to Enoch, that the Garden of Eden is actually housed, not in the third heaven.

It is said to house the city of Christ and is the native seat of the angels.

St. Paul's Apocalypse describes it as " It was all gold, and 12 walls encircled I and there were 12 walls inside. There were 12 gates of great beauty in the circuit of the city and 4 rivers encircled it. There was a river of honey and a river of milk and a river of wine and a river of oil. "

The Fifth Heaven
Mathey or Machon
The 5th heaven Mathey is the seat/home of God, Aaron, and the Avenging Angels. The beautiful southern region is where God can be found while the northern boundaries are said to be ruled by Metatron's twin brother Archangel Sandalphon or Samael (Camael, Chamuel). This region was like a great void of fire and smoke, which had no firm ground above or below.
A terrible desolate place where it is said the fallen Grigori (watchers) angels who sinned and cohabited with woman were imprisoned; hmm !!!
"Well personally I find this to be very unlikely so, as we, mankind, have been blessed with His greatest gift - Free Will - I would have expected at least the Angels to have been blessed with the same gift also. I believe that if an angel chooses to "fall" down to mankind to experience life and follow the paths of re-incarnation there is nothing wrong in that, let's not forget that we are angels too which have forgotten how to fly."
In the southern regions, on the other hand, reside the ministering angels who endlessly change the praises of the Lord.

The Sixth Heaven
Zebul
The 6th heaven Zebul is ruled by Archangel Zachiel (Sachiel) and his subordinate princes Zebul (during the day) and Sabath (during the night)
This stormy, snow ridden dwelling is home to the seven phoenixes and the seven Cherubim who sing the praises of God. A multitude of other angelic beings also reside here.
It is like the angels University of knowledge who study an array of subjects including astronomy, ecology, the seasons, and mankind.


The Seventh Heaven
Araboth
The 7th heaven is the holiest of the holy heavens. Araboth is ruled by Archangel Cassiel and is home to God and his Divine Throne it is also the abode of human souls waiting to be born.
It is also home to the highest orders of angels - the Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones.
It is in the 7th Heaven that Isaiah has a glimpse of God and the Christ and "hears the Most high dictating the program on his (Christs) earthly manifestation and return."

Here are list of known Angels from various scriptures:
Michael
Gabriel
Raphael
Uriel
Chamuel
Jophiel
Zadkhiel
Anael
Anafiel
Ariel
Asariel
Azrael
Bodiel
Barakiel
Cassiel
Celestiel
Chayyiel
Galgaliel
Israfel
Jehoel
Jehudiel
Mael
Metatron
Nathanael
Ophaniel
Phanuel
Raziel
Rikbiel
Sandalphon
Sopheriel
Suriel
Zachariel
Zagzagel
Melchizedek
Azbuga
The Irins
Mihr
The Quaddisim
Ramaela
Shushienae
Soqed Hozi
Vretil
Yefefiah


If want more info, here’s a nice site: http://www.steliart.com/angelology.html

Thanks for what you said about me being a debate partner! Yay!

Yeah you are able debate in manner that you’re truly debating and defending your belief through what you believe. Black Pearl is giving us the notion just mindlessly quoting stuff from bible as a justify mean for her arguments. it’s like she can’t even debate.

I hate the phrase product of your environment. People's souls find what they like and pick out what they like in their environment, the environment does not make them.

I’m going to have disagree with you on this. I’ll explain it later as i’m tired atm.

[Goliath]

Even the kinds of movies you and Goliath like show what kind of ways you are.

Really? Here are some movies I like.

The 39 steps (1935)
Casablanca (1942)
12 angry men (1957)
The magnificent seven (1960)
Once upon a time in the West (1969)
Back to the Future (1985)
The Little Mermaid (1989)
The usual suspects (1995)
The last king of Scotland (2006)

Now you tell me ‘the kind of way’ I am…

George Carlin, well first of all I didn’t realize how evil he seemed until that first video. No matter your views, you can see he spits out negative, derogatory, and hateful speech. […]

George Carlin is ‘evil’?

I’ve always thought I shouldn’t take your posts too seriously, but now you made it much more easy for me.

Just because you don’t agree with him, doesn’t make him evil or hateful, let alone ‘empty inside’, which is again one of your trademark nonsense claims that you can’t back up. But I guess if you ‘feel’ it to be that way, it means it must be true, right? After all, you’re so all-knowing that you know how a comedian would ‘feel’ inside, right? If the arrogance you display here wasn’t so laughable, I would pity you for your delusions of grandeur. If only you would have done more than just make a preposterous, completely thought-up personal attack on the man, I could counter it. But one can’t counter nonsense… I mean, George Carlin being misogynistic? Off all people…?!

Goliath AGAIN…you are a hypocrite. You say that a supreme being like God would be impossible to understand, but then you think your ideas with your limited human intelligence (despite as smart as you are) should be applied to him and the ideas of the Bible.

Oh no, no, no, no, Disney Duster! That one won’t fly! I’m the one who says that I don’t know. I don’t know whether or not there’s a god. That’s all I ever said. What I’m questioning, is organized religion, Christianity in particular. I’m not the one who’s saying he’s got all the answers; you are! You and Black pearl keep quoting from an old book, pretending to know for a fact that what’s in there is the truth. And you both get testy when asked about the numerous inconsistencies and contradictions in it, which don’t make any sense.

What I’m saying is that you’ve put your faith in a book that’s written by human beings, by very many different people over a very long period of time, many ages ago, that gives an entirely *human* view of what a supreme being like God would be like. That’s what Bill Maher was criticizing as well: the humanization of God: God as a single father, God as a jealous and insecure being. That’s not a God who created us in his image; that’s us creating him in our image. And again, to avoid misunderstanding: I’m only talking about the God from the Bible here.

The Bible simply tells us more things about God, and we are not supposed to fully understand them, especially since they are supposed to be miraculous, impossible things only God can do. We cannot understand impossible, miraculous things.

No, that’s simply your way of reasoning away all the glaring impossibilities, inconsistencies and contradictions within the book. Either that or it’s just a bunch of hocus pocus and you admit you believe in something which you don’t understand. Which would explain a lot.

You may also just be interpreting everything wrong. Think about it enough and it may finally make sense to you. Like how being forbidden to lie with men like women could actually have been because of making men feel bad by emasculating them or raping them or treating them like women or doing them when they aren’t gay, and not any of it is about actual gay people and love. That’s just one possible example.

No, that’s you being a hypocrite. You believe in the Bible and that it’s God’s word –until you find a part that doesn’t fit your own desires. Then, suddenly, it’s all about your own interpretation. “Everything in the Bible is true, but not this one thing that would affect me.” You’re creating your own God, which is perfectly fine, but don’t be a hypocrite and lecture us about the Bible, when you’re going to ignore some things because of who you are.

By the way if you want to talk about anything negating free will, science would probably do that. Science, which only examines what it can see, and especially if it thinks everything came randomly from an explosion and evolution without any spirituality of a soul, probably wouldn't believe in something as miraculous as a free will, that we can choose or that we have a will. I do not know, I'm saying probably. Scientists would have to believe in spirituality and wills along with what they can see and examine.

No offense, but that’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever said. Why wouldn’t scientists believe in a free will? Didn’t they choose to go into science? So doesn’t that mean there’s free will? Jesus, the things you say…. !

[Super Aurora]

i'm surprise I miss some of these quotes. Leave to Goliath or Lazario to cover up stuff that went over my head or something I miss out on. LOL.

[Goliath]

i'm surprise I miss some of these quotes. Leave to Goliath or Lazario to cover up stuff that went over my head or something I miss out on. LOL.

I know it's hard to counter *all* of Disney Duster's nonsense. Let me lend a helping hand...

I remember when I was taking a Sociology class a little while ago, it mentioned something about how the perception of children changed with Industrialization. I can’t recall all the details [...] but it mostly said that before the Industrial Revolution, children were considered innately bad and had to be “honed” to be good. (The change to a belief that they’re innately good seem to be tied to the fact that children were more of a luxury/expense, than a requirement to survive anymore).

I don't know about that, but what I do know, is that, for most of history, children have been seen as 'mini-adults', in that they had no time to play and be a child. They had to work and make an income for the family from a very early age. This goes beyond Industrialization, all the way into the 20th century. Anyway, the idea that children aren't 'full-grown' and therefore can't make the same rational decisions that adults can (because their minds aren't fully developed yet), is a relatively recent concept. This relates to what you said, in that children used to be treated as adults, and their mistakes were seen as 'adult' mistakes, which may explain why they were seen as "innately bad".

It was bizarre, but it had interesting concepts. It makes you feel sympathy for the Devil, someone who can never be saved (in the way that you would feel sympathy for anyone who's turned to evil when they could've been good).

That's not an original idea. They must've plagarized that from Mick Jagger.

Seeing movies where evil happens is fine, seeing movies where evil (what the Bible says is evil) is treated as right and good would be bad.

Then I'm in a lot of trouble, considering I'm a big fan of Tarantino's Pulp Fiction, where all the main characters are gangsters and are being portrayed as ultra-cool.

But let's remember that one time, really not too long ago, religious leaders warned their flock that movies (in general) were a thing of the devil, and going to see them was bad for you. Later, they would say the same about television. There are still christians who don't own a tv because they consider it to be evil...

I thought George was dead. I wonder if he did believe anything, though, because he was in Dogma.

When I look at everything he has said and done, I think he believed in solidarity, empathy, helping those who are off worse than yourself. I'd say he was a humanist with socialist ideals. I think it's wrong to say that people who don't believe in a god automatically don't believe in anything. (A lot of religious people make that kind of statements.) I was very shocked when I learned he passed away. The world got a little bleaker that day.

I hate the phrase product of your environment. People's souls find what they like and pick out what they like in their environment, the environment does not make them.

On the contrary, the enivornment *does* form a person. A person is always a products of its time and its environment. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but if you were born in Pakistan, you would not believe in God and Jesus now. You would believe in Allah and Mohammed and read in the holy Qu'ran.

Still, every post you make about God reads either like a fairy tale or a comic book description.

[waltmad]

Doesn't that bother anybody? The idea that God is f***ing with our heads,

@ Black pearl: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought this was going to be an intelligent discussion between two adults, on a serious topic.

Yeah, sooooo mature. Yet you just quoted rules to some one else about excessive Quoting. This does not contravene any rules though does it? Or contradict or make you a hypocrite about breaking rules. (Fond sayings I keep hearing in this thread.) Reminds me of the verse, “don’t worry about taking the splinter out of your brothers eye, when you have a plank in yours”. Could you all stop the swearing now? We all know how big it makes you to come into a religious thread, (on a site with youngsters, ladies & for that matter, gentlemen,) actually take the time to think of what you want to type, then take the time to do so. It is not like it even slipped out. Oh how original these arguments are (not), that I keep hearing against, in this thread on religion.

You might as well record it and play it again, and again, and again

Like your arguments?
If someone has a belief in football where else is he going to go to get information about the rules in football from, a cricket rulebook? Of course not. So to get information from elsewhere would be wrong for that believer in that subject. So where does a believer in Christ go to get the answers if not the bible. Of course, you get the same answers from other (true) Christians, they have the same instructor. Hebrews ch13v8 says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today & forever. If he is no different EVER, to change anything (including the 10 commandments,) could not be of him. So a different answer as opposed to getting the same answer over & over, would be wrong/bad. When asked your name all your life, why don’t you give a different answer? Because it is the correct answer, it does not change with age. So why do you expect answers other than the ones you hate. This only makes sense, when you read the previously covered verse by Black pearl, about false teachers tickling or itching ears & telling them what they want to hear. (These preachers are on the way to hell too.) Or should we say there are no rules we can do what we like. What would happen in football in this case? Pleeeaaase don’t answer, i've heard those kinds of answers over & over & over for years. If you seriously are searching, stop kicking & fighting on the way, at someone who has cared enough to spend probably several hours finding the right answers for you, only to use foul language etc at them, then you act put out because you bit the hand that was feeding you. Would you put up with this behaviour, you will have to if you join us.

Anybody having this fight going on inside, & wondering what is going on. It is a battle, you are being fought for. Jesus is knocking, “will you let me in,” while the one who has whispered in your ear, probably all of your life telling you, you are a failure, you are worthless, useless or one of his other lies, is fighting to hang on to you & drag you down with him. The bible says Mathew ch 6v24 “No one can serve two masters: either he will hate the one & love the other; or he will be devoted to the one, & despise the other” We serve one or the other, the choice is ours. The change is so easy to make. But the enemy will tell you anything to stop you. He is the father of all lies. He has many names, you will know him as the devil. Just ask for help, & you will get it. Jesus came for the broken, weak, & sinner. He did not come for the proud. Tell him you need him.

@ Disney boy. I have to thank you for your facebook joke. I honestly had tears in my eyes with laughter. I know God found that funny too. (He does have a sense of humour). Well worth saving for that rainy day. Perhaps that was what he gave it to you for.
By the way, if it is not putting you under pressure, what did your pastor say about voo doo?


The three musketeers in this thread go prowling from thread to thread, enjoying themselves at the expense of the majority, whatever the topic.
There is a name for people like that, they call it cyber bullies, then they try to hide it in the guise of discussing. Anyone can see whatever the subject, it is attack. I had a class full of people like this in my school days, I stood up to them all. Shortly after, one was shot dead by the police, others became drug addicts, and most of the rest ended up inside prison doing time. So nothing became of their lives. So if any one needs to listen & study discuss & question (not argue) with black pearl, I would say it is people that fit this description.
If you don’t like it, I could call you a whaaaaambulance. This sort of comment is much milder than those that freely get thrown about but befits the behaviour, the way others are talked to by you people. & While we’re at it, if you say something & your own words are used back to you, how does that make it all right for you to say them, but your own words back to you, “is anal”? Try using words everyone knows the meaning of too. Correct name-calling is so much more sweet & respectful. Religious nut would be quite accurate, after all, we are nutty about Jesus. Or fanatic could be appropriate like a football ‘fanatic,’ we are fanatic about the one we have a personal relationship with. We don’t mind the ‘I don’t know what it is, I will poke it with a stick’ attitude.

The phrase religion to me means a man made thing. As super aurora said they cause wars, etc. However we do not have religion, we have God. That is a big difference. The world has ‘religions’. We have a father that loves his children & treats us accordingly. That includes rebuking us too.

@ Other Christians including the 100% who did not answer Black pearl when he/she asked the 62% that say they are Christian, where do you get your beliefs from.

Remember if you truly follow Christ, John ch 15v19 If you were of the world, the world would love his own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Verse 16…. and ordained you, that you should go forth and bring forth fruit….. This means although you are in the world you are not of it, you are of him. Therefore don’t be tempted with what the world has to offer you, he has so much more for you, if you only remember it should not be how much of the world can I get away with, as opposed to how much of the world can I get away from. The world’s rewards are so short. God’s are for eternity. So those that are following Christ, listen, it is time to speak up, we are in the final days, it is time to bring in the harvest. who have you told the good news to today. & Remember Mathew ch 10v33 But whoever denies me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in Heaven. Don’t just speak up, start shouting from the roof tops the good news.


@Black pearl.

I would like to thank you for a 1st class job in representing what the bible actually says. So many times people have not listened to your answers, or purposely ignored them. For instance you said how “if you seek with all your heart you will find him“ etc & he would reveal himself & so on. The only replies you got were as always, negative as expected. Instead of having the guts to seek him. Perhaps their problem is, that they are scared they might find him, making them wrong and then having to do something about it. In doing so they would in turn be persecuted, they know they would not be strong enough to take it. BUT none of us are. He says John ch 15v5 “without me you can do nothing”. “But with him all things are possible.”
I just wanted to thank & encourage you. There is a teaching on the Jewish feasts by Mark Biltz that shows how the 2nd coming is in 2015 (of course the rapture before) & how even the scripture “ no man knoweth the day or hour” proves the day it will be. It is fascinating. It is about £17 in UK with post. Here is the link. http://elshaddaiministries.us/storefront/dvd.html Also, people keep insisting on proof, yet shrug it off when they get it. Well this link http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahsark.htm
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/DVD-RGT.htm takes you to a DVD you can buy, with film of the archaeological discoveries of Noah’s ark, pharaohs chariot wheel in the red sea with tons of other artefacts, that show where they drowned in the parting of the red sea, where the alter still stands today in the wilderness that they spent 40 years in, & the rock that Moses struck, that poured out millions of gallons of water. Yes I said the discovery of Noah’s ark. Authenticated by the Turkish government. Also the holes where the 3 crosses were placed, & directly below this, the Ark of the Covenant. Of course the non believer will explain all this away, because that is his intention, not to believe. So whatever proof is offered, the choice is theirs.

Not to mention, people want to run before they can walk. If they don’t get the basics, why do they want the heavy stuff, of course it is going to do their heads in. Matthew ch 19v14 Jesus said, “let the little children come to me, & do not hinder them, for the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these” He said you must come as a child. Anyway, you must come by faith the good book says, and then you are shown his magnificence. Romans ch 10 v 17 “Consequently, faith cometh by hearing the message, & the message is heard through the word of Christ.” That is why you are being a “ missionary” So people can hear, AND THEN they cannot have the excuse that they were never told. Their blood is no longer on your hands, as you are told in the bible. You have been obedient. You will hear “well done, good & faithful servant.

Lazario raised the fair question of people not hearing in non Christian backgrounds & super aurora said we don’t need you to be a missionary. How then do those that have not heard, decide for them selvelves. Seems your damned if you do & damned if you don’t, between them. This is one of many examples of whatever you say, you in their eyes are contradictory or a hypocrite. Easy to throw names around inaccurately, but how long would they last if the shoe were on the other foot, constantly accused without even taking in what you say.
Also super Aurora said a deist believes a god creates everything but then that’s it. So we have a loving heavenly father who would be jealous of us wanting other gods, (like a fiancée’ having another boy/girlfriend as well as you) but a deist god abandons us. Seems our dad is bigger than his dad. Yet another place where your words were twisted.

Perhaps briefly, you would like to explain for the benefit of those that don’t know but would like too, what the rapture & 2nd coming are, as explained by the bible?
Again thanks for your contribution, if it bothers others, I don’t know why they come in this thread other than to fight & nit pick, & I am not talking about those with a difference of opinion. We welcome people asking genuine questions don’t we, how else will they decide for or against, if they are to make up their own minds without knowing what we believe? That means they are searching, & as you said, if they do it with all their heart, God says they will find him.

Discussion, whether of a different opinion or faith etc, is what a forum is for. Not you speak forum. (For them) E.g. “nobody’s soul needs saving here”.

Do keep it up, God bless. See you in the kingdom.

Your bro in Christ, Walt mad. (Alias)
5 4 3 2 1
LET THE ATTACKS COMMENCE.

[Super Aurora]

The three musketeers in this thread go prowling from thread to thread, enjoying themselves at the expense of the majority, whatever the topic.
There is a name for people like that, they call it cyber bullies, then they try to hide it in the guise of discussing.

That's a very very false assumption you're making there. I can't speak for Lazario or Goliath. But for myself, if you too time to read through, you'll see that I enjoy debating and had good time debating with Duster. Duster and I may have way opposite ends of opinions but we're still friends and enjoy the conversation we are having. So don't make ridiculous assumptions like that. It's going make you look like a fool.

As for some of the jokes I've made, I always make jokes. If you don't know me, then you shouldn't talk. I make jokes on anything to lighten things up. It's part of who I am. Many of the people who know me know that and usually know I don't intend to harm anyone in particular.

Judging from what I'm reading from your post(and I could be wrong), it seems that you don't like the way we argue or debate back to Black Pearl or Duster, or how we take the approach for it.

Also super Aurora said a deist believes a god creates everything but then that’s it. So we have a loving heavenly father who would be jealous of us wanting other gods, (like a fiancée’ having another boy/girlfriend as well as you) but a deist god abandons us. Seems our dad is bigger than his dad. Yet another place where your words were twisted.

A Deist believe in a Supreme God in a more realistic and more logical approach than an emotional and fantastical concept.


Thing is, Deist don't go around praying, worshiping and relying on God.
They just acknowledge and accept a supreme god is there, and go about from there. We don't need to rely on a book, an organize religion and it's rules, etc. We rely on our own selves, and we make our own judgments and choices through life experiences and education.

[Lazario]

LET THE ATTACKS COMMENCE.

I think I'll let the brilliant Heathers answer this one;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjQUHjmcWJ8#t=4m43s

George Carlin, well first of all I didn’t realize how evil he seemed until that first video. No matter your views, you can see he spits out negative, derogatory, and hateful speech. Even against women, when said he’s not against them. But he talks about them negatively and says they should wash out the stains in his underwear. He said people against abortion hate women, but I’d say he’s for abortion because he’s banged a lot of women, not because he’s attractive or has a good personality, but because he’s famous and makes a lot of money off of speech that makes people clap and shout and jeer, and he doesn’t want to have to pay child support for the countless kids he could have fathered, and he doesn’t want to take care of another human being, especially an "insignificant" little baby. His humor is black and empty like his inside probably is from not believing. He doesn’t think life is sacred, but he chooses to live anyway.

Also, I think he’s wrong on eggs that are fertilized getting flushed out. Once it’s fertilized, it’s supposed to go become a zygote, not get flushed out. People get pregnant extremely more often than not, because of this. I’m pretty sure he’s wrong on fertilized eggs getting flushed.

But even if he wasn’t, his logic sucks, though you usually have to dumb down and simplify things for humor. He says that because these fertilized eggs are flushed away naturally, that would make women murderers, but they’re not, so it’s okay to abort. With that logic, I can say people die naturally, so then it’s okay to murder people. It is only the fertilized egg that is going to become a person, or is already a zygote, that we don’t want to abort. Just eggs and sperm are not what we consider people getting murdered especially when, well, you can’t abort those things.

As for his Ten Commandments speech, once again he is misogynistic towards women, and he says certain things are all the same. It’s very easy to simplify things. Using his own logic, he could make one commandment: “Don’t do bad things”. That is pretty much what the laws are trying to conbey, though, don’t do things you feel are bad. But you may not feel they are bad, until you learn they are bad later, especially by learning that other people get hurt by things you didn't think would hurt them, so we have to be told. The Ten Commandments has to be more clear, and specify. George Carlin’s main problem in these is he is not thinking. The Bible couldn’t have said “Honor your mother and father only if they do things you know for absolutely sure are okay”. You would naturally think “of course if my parents are bad, I don’t have to obey them.” In fact, it just says to honor them, you don’t have to do everything they say but you can still honor them for birthing and raising you. That’s just one example, apply it to the other things he said.

I also have realized that usually you make humor, specifically stand-up, and addictively watch humor, specifically stand-up, when you are depressed, and also especially when atheist. Most stand-up is black and negative, trying to get a laugh out of the empty hole you feel the world is from not believing in better things, good things, God.

Bill Maher, yet another one who, because it’s comedy, has to dumb down and simplify things to make it funny. God is not physical. Of course you can’t figure out how he works and everything. He is doing what Goliath is doing which is...

Duster, consider me officially part of the "We Need a UD Ignore Button" club. Even though Goliath first brought it up months ago in reference to me and probably has changed his mind about me since, I wash my hands of you completely. And this ^ is the reason why. You think Goliath is dumb for believing Carlin and Maher have put a lot of intelligence in their humor and humor in their highly intelligent observations. Otherwise, the "dumbed down" humor your referring to would not appeal to people like Goliath. And I for one agree that they were both very smart and wise in their observations - which you are telling us are evil.

And that's the last thing I have to say to you. Ever. How can you argue with the Titanic? And by that I mean, a ship that's going down. You'll notice I didn't even get involved in the Disney Essence disaster. But I will confirm for you that when Escapay has to be brought to such a level of shock where he tries desperately to find some shred of rationality in an argument with you- you're a lost cause. Well, I'm getting off this boat. Have fun crashing.

[waltmad]

Black pearl wrote:
You shall have no other God but me: That means he is your only God & 1st love. If you idolise, worship or adore something more than him, you are putting something before him.

What the, that commandment does not specifically say that. You are saying that, you are interpreting God’s word for us and that is not what we have to believe, we just have to look at God’s word and what it says to us.

And where did you get that from. Obviously you have not read black pearls previous posts, I suggest you do. It says exactly that. Commandment number 1 Exodus ch 20 v 3 “You shall have no other God before me.”
Read bp’s posts, Jesus and God are one, read bp’s post about Jesus saying if you love your father, mother, son or daughter more than him, you are not worthy of him. So you can’t even love direct family more than him, never mind a, false god. (Him being the only one, which even that, most religions agree.) What does it say to you then? Now read the bible, tell bp or me it does not say that, and why don’t we have to believe, that what it actually says it actually means. How many interpretations are we allowed? Your answers are often “I don’t know.” If you don’t know, where would you like us to go for the answers?
We choose the bible, which again if you read bp’s posts about itching ears, I’m afraid you will find despite being accurate with some answers, this is what the bible considers you to be. You are free to carry on this way of course, but where did you get this belief that bp is not quoting but “interpreting the bible for every one”. If it were what it says to me, different to what it says to you, how can different interpretations all be right, and if so wouldn’t that include bp’s? Of course being halfway there, why not come over the other half, and also study the bible and be hated like us too, just as the bible says, see bp’s posts.
Being hated is proof that we are on the right tracks. Read b.p’s posts.
I am not going to repeatedly advise people to read bp’s posts, but if you want answers, there are plenty in there. And if it is not, she has I believe, offered to answer sincere searching questions. (Not personal downright nosey ones that will only try to be used for a premeditated trap, I am afraid, Laz.) Hope you come aboard, then the Holy Spirit will teach and guide you as he does all God’s children that want to follow him and his word. `

[Lazario]

You are very full of yourself, for a guy who only shows up to talk trash when a religious discussion is going on.

More like- you want to make yourself look like some kind of hero-martyr, so you turn this into "everyone hates us so that makes us God Warriors." Get over yourself already! And your b.s., pathetic quest to get this drama started where the whole board is under siege by an evil threat. First me. Now, everyone you find here who questions religion. Cyber bullies? Oh- really? Forget that this starts when people like B.P. force their religious view down other people's throats. Or when you magically show up to defend them, seeming ignoring that part when you say things like:

Being hated is proof that we are on the right tracks.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you won't trick anyone here with that kind of garbage. You get what you ask for. If you start making outrageous claims, people are going to question them. If you counter their questions with a condescending, and literally holier-than-thou, attitude- people are going to roll their eyes and tell you off. If you only make posts just to stir something up, people will know. And not only that, you then try to reverse blame.

If you're only a fan of Disney because you think it's some kind of pro-Christian entertainment establishment or to UD because you think it's a service for protecting religious views, you're only setting yourself up for painful isolation. I think someone needs to show you the door. Lovely parting gifts on the way out.



If you really believed in what you're saying, and not just doing this for the fight- you would be taking a much more humble attitude. Instead, you're going on the offensive and also building up this crazy new shield. Playing into this reputation where you're so put-upon. If nothing I've said to you before was serious- this is.