Wall-E - Pixar's next film (after Ratatouille)

[TM2-Megatron]

Woah I came in way late.We and our experiences and thinking proves God exists because without God we couldn't exist.

There's a fatal flaw to that logic; it requires proof that we can't exist without a God before our mere existence could be considered proof of God. Or you just need to be arguing with somebody that accepts that idea as indisputable fact; and I don't. There are many theories on how organic molecules first arose on Earth; and they don't require celestial jumper-cables.

I know you have your bad experiences and met bad people and this makes you turn towards robots and no God. That as you think and type you don't realize how amazing it is you can, well that's your problem.

Nobody who's ever lived in this world has gone through life without having any bad experiences, or having met bad people (isn't that one of the points of religion?)... I'm not sure what you're driving at. I haven't had any more than could be considered pretty average; and they certainly haven't made me "turn towards robots", lol. That makes it sound as if I'd rather hang around with robots, or be more interested in Eve than a cute human girl, lol. The way you phrased that makes it sound like you either have to choose to believe in robots (or science, more generally, I suppose) or God... many people get by believe in both. I've never believed in God; it has nothing to do with my disputing you with regard to robots in this thread. I'm simply willing to accept that life can exist in more forms than the single variety we're currently familiar with.

And yes, I'm much happier knowing I will continue to be happy forever. It's hard to be happy, in the moment, thinking all of it will end and there's no point to having been happy once somewhere in time.

I'm glad (I really am) that your beliefs give you comfort; and know that mine do the same for me. Just as you believe in a power so much greater than yourself, and that you'll find eternal comfort somewhere down the line; I know for a fact that the Universe is many times greater than myself, and contains things I couldn't imagine if I had ten thousand lifetimes to sit around philosophizing. And, whether you believe it or not, although it's not entirely 100% scientific, I also hold out the (admittedly distant) hope of existing in some other form after my death. Energy (and matter, though that's of less consequence in this issue) can't be destroyed, only converted from one form to another. And if our brains do indeed contain some kind of neural energy that's in part responsible for what we are, maybe we can continue to exist after it's organic housing is gone. Failing that, I'll simply have my consciousness downloaded into a clone, or a robotic placeholder until a clone can be made, lol.

And I'd love to believe the universe is full of all these great undiscovered things, and I'm sure it is, I'd love to see some of those things, but it's us humans here on Earth that are teh best ever. Nothing has reached us, our level. And no robots are going to. Oh sure, maybe on the surface someday they will be great imitations. But no robots will be authentic soul-filled humans.

You can't really say we're "the best" until you've seen everything else the Univere had, has, or will have to offer in the many billions of years it's going to exist. And sadly, I fear that's the study of an eternity; and far beyond any of us to either confirm or abrogate.

But you and me agree on one thing...the cover with Wall-E and Eve on the bench is a million times better than the covers we're getting in the U.S. It is so superior it's just undeniable.

I'm glad. Perhaps good taste is universal to all, regardless of faith (or lack thereof), lol.

In any case, while we're on the topic of bioethics (a subject I've always found fascinating, even before I took classes on it), here's a robotic (though truly cybernetic) technology that's likely to raise debate one day:

A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain

(ironically, the pictured prototype even looks a bit like Wall-E )

[2099net]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but it appears the complete The Pixar Story film documentary is to be included on the 3 Disc/Blu Ray releases.

THis is reported on The Digital Bits, DVDActive and the Pixar Story Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pixar_Story

[hutch]

WALL-E has just been announced as a 3 dicsc special edition DVD. What will be included to warrant a 3 DVD set?

[Escapay]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but it appears the complete The Pixar Story film documentary is to be included on the 3 Disc/Blu Ray releases.

THis is reported on The Digital Bits, DVDActive and the Pixar Story Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pixar_Story

It hasn't been mentioned (at least not in this thread, everyone's preoccupied with the cover!).

I wasn't sure if I'd immediately get WALL-E on DVD (I liked it both times I saw it, but could hold off on it until I could get it for a nice used price). But once I saw that The Pixar Story would be one of the bonus features, I was sold (I read the book this summer from the library and it's quite good, though I'll have to get another copy for myself as I forget most of what I read since it was early June!).

And regarding the enlightening/frustrating/interesting philosophical debate between Mike and the Megatron (now that would be a great name for a sitcom..."Mike and the Megatron"), I can see both sides of the argument, as both a practicing Roman Catholic and a regular ole human wondering about everything else out there. And one of the things that always keeps me going is a quote from "Star Trek" (the episode "Balance of Terror", to be exact):

"In this galaxy, there's a mathematical probability of three million earth-type planets. And in all of the universe, three million million galaxies like this. And in all of that, and perhaps more, only one of each of us."

It's a nice reminder that no matter what views we have of life, the universe, and everything (thank you Douglas Adams), we are alive. Be it as a single-cell organism, a bug, a whale, a human, or some form of consciousness in another galaxy light-years away from here...we are all unique and individual, and only a select few of us have an opportunity like no other: to think, to feel, to wonder, etc. about our existence. So God or no god, I'm grateful to be alive under any circumstance, but even more grateful that I'm alive in a form that allows me to realize this.

Albert

[Flanger-Hanger]

More Wall-E bonuses announced:

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1701

[Disney Duster]

Okay.

TM3-Megatron, okay well, we being here and so amazing still proves God exits. I read your thing about proof. Yea, this is the proof.

I'm glad (I really am) that your beliefs give you comfort; and know that mine do the same for me.

Because...you believe in all these things out there that are greater than yourself and better than our mundane life here? I don't see how that could comfort you. What if you never get to see those things, know about those things?

Failing that, I'll simply have my consciousness downloaded into a clone, or a robotic placeholder until a clone can be made, lol.

Really? Wow. No sarcasm or negativity, there. Lately I've had to explain myself. Just wow for now.

You can't really say we're "the best" until you've seen everything else the Univere had, has, or will have to offer in the many billions of years it's going to exist. And sadly, I fear that's the study of an eternity; and far beyond any of us to either confirm or abrogate.

We're the best, come on. How come no superior life forms have come to our planet yet, discovered us? Sure, there's probably life out there, but nothing that comes close to us and our coolness.

I'm glad. Perhaps good taste is universal to all, regardless of faith (or lack thereof), lol.

If it's universal...shouldn't the U.S. have the French covers? This is actually a reassurance to me that humans are so different.

I saw your Frankenrobot. I think I even saw him later on a Discovery Channel thing about robots and technology. They even went on about giving rights to the robots who become so much like us, like you talked about. And they even went on to cover movies, and how we would have digital actors, reminding me of humans losing their jobs to robots. But they talked a little about animation, and how even the digital creations that look as life-like as real human actors, to be virtual actors, are really the product of the animator, the animator is like the actor. That's what Disney's 2-D animators have always said!

Now some deepness. They said machines could get higher intelliegence than us, become better than us in so many ways. With their higher intelligence, who knows what they will think about us humans, if we should live or not? What will they do with us?

We are making machines that are going to take our place. We are making things that are going to kill us.

It's funny, Wall-E has conflicting messages. Robot love, but then that we shouldn't let technology tak over human life.

They did conhecture on Discovery Channel that to compete with robots we may have to become like them. A guy said "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." Become cyborgs. Which reminded me of you wanting to become a machine. Well, I guessed that, and now your wish may come true.

That you don't see how bad that is, to become machines, letting machines mess with our brains, is frightening.

And you know, I was just saying we are better than robots or whatever just because we have souls, it's not religion as you accused. Souls is just the best way of explaining what I meant. We all have something special inside us, we all are more special than anything else in our world. We must save ourselves. That you don't realize why you are more special than any robot is baffling.

EDIT:If you have been reading this TM2-Megatron/Disney Duster discussion, there is hope for you who believe we are more than what TM2-Megatron has been saying. Look for the bold, blue edit in one of my posts below.

[Escapay]

How come no superior life forms have come to our planet yet, discovered us?

There's a few theories/reasons that have been floating around for years.

1. The Prime Directive - I'm cheating a bit and using something from "Star Trek", but it has its roots in Westphalian sovereignty. A planet with superior technology should not make themselves known to planets that are still technologically inferior to them, nor should they "guide them along" and alter that planet's natural development/evolution. However, once that planet is on equal technological footing as them, then "first contact" can be established. So it's entirely possible that an alien planet (or a whole bunch of them) out there has mandated no contact with Earth until we reach their level of technology.

2. We Weren't Around Yet - evolution does not happen at the same rate. That's to say, jut because humans have been around for 65 million years doesn't mean that intelligent life has only been around for 65 million years (and really, human intelligence as we know it has only been around for a few thousand years). The universe as we know it is about 4 billion years old (give or take a couple million years). It's entirely probable that in the millions of years before humans ever walked the earth (be it evolving from Cro-Magnons or borne out of dust with the breath of God's nostrils), there were forms of intelligent life who were technologically advanced to the point of visiting other planets. However, upon landing upon Earth and finding it to be either a barren rock or a land of giant lizards, they probably left it alone. Then of course, over the millions of years, these forms of intelligent life died out, or they continued on, but haven't bothered checking up on the planet.

3. They're Not As Advanced As Us Yet - going back to the rate of evolution, there could be planets out there who have just discovered fire, or planets with tribes that have created their first city and government. So it'll be quite awhile before they get to the technology to reach us, and it could be possible that in a few hundred years, we reach them first.

4. They're As Advanced As Us - just as there is superior life out there and inferior life out there, we may as well be on the same level of technology as a planet three galaxies away. They could have seen the same level of technological evolution in the past 100 years as we have, and are probably questioning alien life as we are.

5. We're Not Worth Checking Out - It could be likely that as awesome and cool as we are (according to Mike ), the superior life out there aren't interested in making contact with us. It's possible that aliens have observed us for the past million years and figured, "Eh...we can get along fine without meeting those life forms. Next planet, please!." What benefit would it be for them to check us out and would it even be worth it? And given our civilisation's violent past, I don't blame them if they stay away (but I'd rather they didn't, it'd be cool to finally meet someone from Zarloc or whatever.)

6. We're Completely Unknown - Earth is just one planet out of millions. Just as there are still many pockets of the jungle or rainforest that has yet to be explored, or an island that isn't discovered. In the entirety of the universe, it's likely that we are "alone" in the fact that only we know we exist, and no other planets are aware of us (beyond perhaps a statistic of "there are 9 planets in orbit around Star 394AGE3.493/6" that some scientist is observing on his telescope). Modern technology (as we know it) has only been around for about 100 years. Just because we have the ability to launch a couple rockets and satellites into space doesn't mean that other planets are aware of it.

7. They Already Made Contact, But We Don't Know It - the government hides a lot of things from us. Even vice-president Harry S. Truman didn't know about the development of the atom bomb until he was sworn in as president. There's many conspiracy theories out there about things the government has hidden, and alien life is usually the most popular one out there. Aliens could have come in contact with us, but the government covered it up. Or, it could be like Men in Black, where they wipe citizens' memories if they see one, and also disguise aliens as humans.

Albert

[pap64]

I honestly avoided the discussions regarding the philosophical and metaphysical aspects of Wall.E because those types of discussions never end well, especially if religions are involved. However, I will put my cents regarding the love story in the movie.

I've always believed that in the animated/cartoon world characters have something that I like to call "cartoon soul". That soul enables them to be alive, act and behave like human beings even when they aren't and enjoy life very differently.

In reality, machines can't act like humans, much less grow, give birth and fall in love with each other. But in cartoons, they can. They just have an unusual way of doing so.

Take for example the movie "Robots". In that movie robots act like human beings, but realize that they are machines and thus live a life that is both human and mechanical. In the movie the main character, Rodney, is born. How can machines give birth? They buy the pieces and assemble them. How does that baby grow? They upgrade him as the years part using other parts. Its through these upgrades that Rodney's personality changes and evolves, along with his physical being. In the Robots world, death is when your parts stop working and you must be thrown away.

So basically, the characters in "Robots" act, behave, live and even die as humans, but their lifestyles are changed so they reflect what they really are; machines.

I honestly see the same thing going on in the "Cars" world.

As for Wall.E, yeah he is a machine, but like I said he lives in a world that allows him to have a cartoon, human like soul possibly achieved by a malfunction years prior to the film's events. Same with the other robots. Thus despite their physical state they can act and feel like a human thanks to a soul unlike ours.

Not to mention that this movie is a re-imagining of our world, meaning that no matter how close it tries to mimic our existence it is not the same and the creators are allowed to take liberties. "Ratatouille" clearly takes place on Earth, on our modern times, on a real locale (Paris, France). But rats can't cook, not they can't control the human body by pulling their hair as puppet strings.

So long story short, in many cartoons the characters live in a world that permits them to act very freely and human, going as far as to having a soul that is not like ours and adapts itself to the world that surrounds it.

[azul017]

I'm glad to see Wall-E is actually given the five-star treatment after the lackluster treatment given to Cars and Ratatouille. I personally think the digital copy on both the DVD and Blu-ray is worthless (at least for the DVD, they should've done that five years ago).

I'll get the single-disc, as it has the commentary, shorts and other seemingly solid supplements. And I hope that the DVD has a Dolby Digital Surround EX mix as opposed to regular Dolby Digital, just to maintain continuity with the other Pixar titles.

[TM2-Megatron]

The universe as we know it is about 4 billion years old (give or take a couple million years).

The Earth has been around probably 4.5 billion years or so... current estimates place the Universe itself at around 13.7 billion, with a margin of error around 120 million.

Okay.
TM3-Megatron, okay well, we being here and so amazing still proves God exits. I read your thing about proof. Yea, this is the proof

It's not proof by any standard of proof that I'm familiar with, but there's clearly no point in debating it with you.

I'm glad (I really am) that your beliefs give you comfort; and know that mine do the same for me.

Because...you believe in all these things out there that are greater than yourself and better than our mundane life here? I don't see how that could comfort you. What if you never get to see those things, know about those things?

It isn't a matter of my belief in them; for me, it's the mere idea of their existence. My personal knowledge of each single wonder of the Universe, or whether I see them with my own eyes or not doesn't make them any better; it's irrelevant. The Universe is immense. Even with a ship capable of faster-than-light travel, assuming such a thing is possible, someone with a human lifespan wouldn't be able to see a 0.0001% of a trillionth of what there is.

You believe that God is so much greater than yourself, don't you? Have you seen him walking down the street lately? So why does the idea comfort you so much?

Failing that, I'll simply have my consciousness downloaded into a clone, or a robotic placeholder until a clone can be made, lol.

Really? Wow. No sarcasm or negativity, there. Lately I've had to explain myself. Just wow for now.

You'll have to explain yourself to me, anyway; I can't quite understand your comment. For the most part, I was joking. A neural analog to digital conversion device is far beyond our technology, and will be for some time to come.

You can't really say we're "the best" until you've seen everything else the Univere had, has, or will have to offer in the many billions of years it's going to exist. And sadly, I fear that's the study of an eternity; and far beyond any of us to either confirm or abrogate.

We're the best, come on. How come no superior life forms have come to our planet yet, discovered us? Sure, there's probably life out there, but nothing that comes close to us and our coolness.

Escapay already listed several good possibilities. As I've already said, the Universe is incomprehensibly large... you honestly feel that comfortable in your assumption that we're the pinnacle of biological evolution in all of reality; in all the 10+ billion years before our arrival, and the many billions of years after we've turned to dust? I suppose you also believe the Earth is at the centre of the Universe, and everything else revolves around us. These two beliefs go hand in hand in their arrogant conceit.

Now some deepness. They said machines could get higher intelliegence than us, become better than us in so many ways. With their higher intelligence, who knows what they will think about us humans, if we should live or not? What will they do with us?

We are making machines that are going to take our place. We are making things that are going to kill us.

lol, the treacherous are ever the most fearful of treachery themselves... an expression I've always liked.

Doubtless, there are many sci-fi stories in which humans have been conquered and subjugated by their own creations. Of course another deep thought to add to your pondering is that, in most of these stories, humans only had themselves to blame for the hostilities. An excellent study in this (and a very well-crafted story) is the 2-part animated short "The Second Renaissance", which tells the history of the machine/human war in the Matrix movies.

It's funny, Wall-E has conflicting messages. Robot love, but then that we shouldn't let technology tak over human life.

You see those as conflicting? They have nothing to do with eachother... unless of course a person is arrogant enough to believe that the mere fact another type of lifeform has the "audacity to feel something reserved for humans" is somehow an offense in and of itself.

A robot feeling love has about as much to do with "taking over human life" as a same-sex couple getting married interferes with or diminshes the marriage rights of the bigots that protest their right to do so.

That you don't see how bad that is, to become machines, letting machines mess with our brains, is frightening.

Our brains are machines. Biochemical machines, to be precise; and highly complex ones, at that. You're simply accustomed to thinking of machines as being made of metal, or plastic, and using gears or clockwork or integrated circuits. An organic machine is no less a machine than a synthetic one.

And you know, I was just saying we are better than robots or whatever just because we have souls, it's not religion as you accused. Souls is just the best way of explaining what I meant. We all have something special inside us, we all are more special than anything else in our world. We must save ourselves. That you don't realize why you are more special than any robot is baffling.

The soul is entirely a religious concept, so my "accusation" was accurate. I fail to see why you find my reluctance to place myself above other thinking, feeling creatures so offensive. Can you see, or quantify a "soul" yourself? How can you tell what has one, and what doesn't? And if you do believe in God, then by what right do you judge whether something else has a soul? Why not leave that up to your God to determine... no doubt a being capable of bringing a universe or multiverse into existence would be more open-minded than yourself.

As unlikely as the idea of a Universal creator seems to me, I'd in fact like to meet such a being if it truly existed. No doubt it/he/she/whatever would be able to keep me entertained for eons with intelligent discussion and billions of years of insight and experience. What I've never cared for, personally, is the human- and terran-centric ideas our religions apply to God, and their draconian practices.

Anyway, this has been fairly interesting, and no doubt my fingers have had their excercise for the month; but I think I'm about through with this debate unless someone else decides to come in, or some new and interesting opinion is expressed. As much as I like hearing myself talk (or seeing myself type, in this case), j/k, there's only so long I can be involved in a debate that makes absolutely no progress in any direction, lol. I'm only human, after all, and with entirely finite (though perhaps greater than most) limits on my patience for stagnant debates.

[JDCB1986]

how does this board always get on the God topic. lol. i guess you can tell there is a strong focus on imagination... there is no man floating around in the clouds...just the same as there aren't really talking candlesticks, lions or dogs. there are no flying elephants, genies, toys that come to life when you leave or wishing wells that turn you into a 2D version of yourself. they are all stories... some just happen to be more elaborate than others. doesn't change the fact that they are nothing more than stories though.

*This post has been reformatted by a moderator*

[Disney Duster]

Thanks Escapay, but I considered al lot of similar things. My question was meant to be a suggestion of thought, I guess rhetorical. I still read all of them, they were good, of course.

Pap64, I know what you meant, it's a lot like how I can believe in the robots feeling love through Disney magic and gaining a soul in our imagination. It's just, the movie also possibly suggests souless fake-emotional robots will be the same as us, feel love the same as us.

Its through these upgrades that Rodney's personality changes and evolves, along with his physical being.

Do you realize how horrible that is? His parents, and the parts they choose, dictate how his personality will be. How he will be. There's no concept of him being himself. It's him being how he's made by those around him.

But in reality, everyone has theirselves to thank for how they are, who they are. You are you, how you make yourself.

You believe that God is so much greater than yourself, don't you? Have you seen him walking down the street lately? So why does the idea comfort you so much?

The difference is, my thoughts say I will see God, and see the afterlife for souls. Your thoughts say you won't see everything in the universe you imagine.

You'll have to explain yourself to me, anyway; I can't quite understand your comment. For the most part, I was joking. A neural analog to digital conversion device is far beyond our technology, and will be for some time to come.

Well, that's why I asked "really?" and was amazed. But hopefully you can live on, if it's not the way you don't think can happen.

I don't believe we are the center of the universe literally. But yes, we are the best, the highest form of life in this world. It may be kind of figurative, I could fathom things being more "intelligent" than us perhaps, but we'd still be the best, something robots and certain ways of measuring may not be able to see.

Doubtless, there are many sci-fi stories in which humans have been conquered and subjugated by their own creations. Of course another deep thought to add to your pondering is that, in most of these stories, humans only had themselves to blame for the hostilities. An excellent study in this (and a very well-crafted story) is the 2-part animated short "The Second Renaissance", which tells the history of the machine/human war in the Matrix movies.

I've seen the Animatrix. What you have been saying all along has reminded me of it. But anyway, as for humans being destroyed because it's their own fault, yes. If we build things that destroy us, are able to destroy us, it's our own fault.

A robot feeling love has about as much to do with "taking over human life" as a same-sex couple getting married interferes with or diminshes the marriage rights of the bigots that protest their right to do so.

No it's not. Robots aren't people. Robots aren't humans. That's completely different from marrying your own species.

Can you see, or quantify a "soul" yourself? How can you tell what has one, and what doesn't? And if you do believe in God, then by what right do you judge whether something else has a soul? Why not leave that up to your God to determine... no doubt a being capable of bringing a universe or multiverse into existence would be more open-minded than yourself.

A soul is better than something you can see or physically feel. It's so amazing and special. And God is part of us anyway, we need to decide what has a soul and if we should make things that will destroy us so we can survive.

We need to save ourselves.

Anyway, you may dislike me a lot now, but please, I will be sending you some very private, different deep thoughts that you will actually probably find interesting in a pm. You may even like them. They are related to all this. I hope you will read them and talk to me a little longer. Until then, my friend...

EDIT: Just discovered and thought of some things for anyone who has been reading the TM2-Megatron/Disney Duster discussion. First off, we are never just empty hardrives and only get personality from experiences. TM2 did say we don't get personalities the way I was thinking of at least, so whatever, but actually we are born with things that help influence, perhaps determine, our personalities. Genes or whatever that reflect the personality of our souls, or if you only want to look at what's there scientists can study, genes that determine our personalities. Or perhaps are genes don't necessarily reflect our souls but our souls are something even more than what genes do for us. Whatevs.

Next, we, and our brains, are not machines. Quantum Physics disproved that we work or can be explained mechanically, all the way back in the 20's. Apparently a lot of scientists and people forget/ignore that.

[Ariel'sprince]

What religions has anything to do with WALL-E?.
Well,anyway it's time I"ll finally see WALL-E.

[Escapay]

Thanks Escapay, but I considered al lot of similar things. My question was meant to be a suggestion of thought, I guess rhetorical.

Ah, I should've known.

Still, it'd be great if in the far future we travel to a distant planet and find that they've been watching us for years and waiting for us to find them.

I could fathom things being more "intelligent" than us perhaps,

Reminds me of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where dolphins are the second most intelligent lifeform on earth (mice are the first, and we're the third).

Chapter 23:
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.

Curiously enough, the dolphins had long known of the impending destruction of the planet Earth and had made many attempts to alert mankind to the danger; but most of their communications were misinterpreted as amusing attempts to punch footballs or whistle for tidbits, so they eventually gave up and left the Earth by their own means shortly before the Vogons arrived.

The last ever dolphin message was misinterpreted as a surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double-backwards-somersault through a hoop whilst whistling the 'Star Spangled Banner', but in fact the message was this: So long and thanks for all the fish.

Albert

[TM2-Megatron]

Its through these upgrades that Rodney's personality changes and evolves, along with his physical being.

Do you realize how horrible that is? His parents, and the parts they choose, dictate how his personality will be. How he will be. There's no concept of him being himself. It's him being how he's made by those around him.

I'll agree with you, there. A machine with true AI would have an electronic (or positronic, ) neural net that grows and evolves naturally based on experiences (input), just as the biological neural networks between our brain cells do. Robots was a terrible movie, though, and I doubt its production grew gave any thought to metaphysics.

I've seen the Animatrix. What you have been saying all along has reminded me of it. But anyway, as for humans being destroyed because it's their own fault, yes. If we build things that destroy us, are able to destroy us, it's our own fault.

That wasn't the point, though. Humans in the Animatrix weren't to blame for their own downfall simply because they created the machines. It was their ignorance, bigotry and total inability to live in peace with another form of intelligent life that caused the war. If you'll recall, the robots made numerous peace overtures, and withdrew to their own country. They were denied entry to the UN. They only became aggressive after human nations attacked with with nuclear force.

A robot feeling love has about as much to do with "taking over human life" as a same-sex couple getting married interferes with or diminshes the marriage rights of the bigots that protest their right to do so.

No it's not. Robots aren't people. Robots aren't humans. That's completely different from marrying your own species.

I wasn't comparing the two on that level. I said a robot feeling love has about as much to do with taking over human life as as... etc. etc. Meaning that a robot feeling love has absolutely nothing to do with Wall-E's theme of not letting machines take over human life.

Can you see, or quantify a "soul" yourself? How can you tell what has one, and what doesn't? And if you do believe in God, then by what right do you judge whether something else has a soul? Why not leave that up to your God to determine... no doubt a being capable of bringing a universe or multiverse into existence would be more open-minded than yourself.

A soul is better than something you can see or physically feel. It's so amazing and special. And God is part of us anyway, we need to decide what has a soul and if we should make things that will destroy us so we can survive.

Anyway, you may dislike me a lot now, but please, I will be sending you some very private, different deep thoughts that you will actually probably find interesting in a pm. You may even like them. They are related to all this. I hope you will read them and talk to me a little longer. Until then, my friend...

I don't dislike people for having opinions different than mine; different opinions one of the things that makes the world more interesting.

[Ariel'sprince]

I have seen WALL-E now and I really loved it my favorite Pixar movie now after Finding Nemo.

[Disney's Divinity]

Chapter 23:
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.

Curiously enough, the dolphins had long known of the impending destruction of the planet Earth and had made many attempts to alert mankind to the danger; but most of their communications were misinterpreted as amusing attempts to punch footballs or whistle for tidbits, so they eventually gave up and left the Earth by their own means shortly before the Vogons arrived.

The last ever dolphin message was misinterpreted as a surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double-backwards-somersault through a hoop whilst whistling the 'Star Spangled Banner', but in fact the message was this: So long and thanks for all the fish.

Albert

I'm going to have to read that now.

And I don't really want to be included in this debate, but I just wanted to say:

Do you realize how horrible that is? His parents, and the parts they choose, dictate how his personality will be. How he will be. There's no concept of him being himself. It's him being how he's made by those around him.

I think this part of Robots does, in a way, represent how very much people are formed by those around them. Every human being develops differently based on the role models they're surrounded with and the environment they live in. When you become an adult, you do have the freedom to make your own choices, but you can never take back how your parents or anyone else has affected you. No matter how much therapy or medication you take.

[Disney Duster]

Thanks Escapay. Yea, it would be great to one day know all that stuff. And I liked the dolphin thing. It was funny. Was that quoted or your (well-written) paraphrasing? And I want to see the movie even more now.

I'll agree with you, there.

I read the whole thing of course, but quoted that because it gives me hope, I was feeling very lonely like I was the only one who saw something. I think what you said illustrates part of the heart of what we're debating about. You accept everything that's been found out through certain ways of measuring and seeing it. But you know we haven't found out everything about ourselves. I believe there's more to us, more there, we haven't "proven" yet (except, you know, it's proven by feeling it and existing...yea) and there's not only more out there somewhere in the universe.

That wasn't the point, though. Humans in the Animatrix weren't to blame for their own downfall simply because they created the machines. It was their ignorance, bigotry and total inability to live in peace with another form of intelligent life that caused the war. If you'll recall, the robots made numerous peace overtures, and withdrew to their own country. They were denied entry to the UN. They only became aggressive after human nations attacked with with nuclear force.

Yes, I knew that it involved what we did after the robots were built, but I was looking at the bigger picture. I don't remember all parts of the Animatrix very well, though. Why did the humans want to nuke the robots in the first place? Well, aside from the answer you would give, I'd say they realized they made a mistake. We should realize that we will make a mistake, now, before it happens.

On that Discivery Channel thing a man made a robot that looked like him and was "hooked up" to him somehow so it followed his movements. He was a teacher, and his robot would teach people, or he wanted it to, through controlling it while at home, or something, Yes, I'm fuzzy on the details. He said he either wanted, or wondered, about giving it either it's own intelligence, or giving it his own intelligence, like I guess giving it a robotic imitation of his own mind, or something. It's a good example of replacing ourselves with these things. Why would we want to replace ourselves? Why would we want to die to let these imitations live?

I wasn't comparing the two on that level. I said a robot feeling love has about as much to do with taking over human life as as... etc. etc. Meaning that a robot feeling love has absolutely nothing to do with Wall-E's theme of not letting machines take over human life.

Oh. Well, if robots love like us and become more and more like us, in a general sense they are taking over us. Thinking ahead, if they become better than us they will be the new things that should be instead of us. An analogy: DVD's taking over VHS's. And "better" than us could just mean able to defeat us and take over us.

I don't dislike people for having opinions different than mine; different opinions one of the things that makes the world more interesting.

Yay. Well, eventually I'll pm you. I think you'll agree with what I think, or find it intrigueing, it's something few but you would understand, but it's scary and private so I'll take my time. Today or tomarrow.

I think this part of Robots does, in a way, represent how very much people are formed by those around them. Every human being develops differently based on the role models they're surrounded with and the environment they live in. When you become an adult, you do have the freedom to make your own choices, but you can never take back how your parents or anyone else has affected you. No matter how much therapy or medication you take.

Glad to see you in here, actually. And, I suppose you're right, but I'm worried the concept of ourselves may still be lost. I'm worried thinking along those lines could make us think we are only what happens to us. Things influence us, but we still are who we are without them, making choices and having likes and dislikes. And it's not like you choose, say, a purple hat because you like purple because when you were little your mom fed you with a purple spoon. Sure, we can wonder that, but no, I'm confident that's not the case. A lot of people here had Cinderella as their first video, when they were very young. It's often among those people's favorites, but it's only my number one favorite of the members on here (I think). I was three, and had no experience with stepfamily, pumpkins or clocks. Yet I have interest in pumpkins and clocks because I know I liked Cinderella, probably partially through choice and, well, that's me, my soul, whatever you want to call it. My one extremely smart high IQ friend said you choose who you love. At first I was skeptical but now I can see why it could be so.

[slave2moonlight]

Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to see this film yet. So I have to ask, approximately how tall is Wall-E supposed to be?

[Escapay]

And I liked the dolphin thing. It was funny. Was that quoted or your (well-written) paraphrasing? And I want to see the movie even more now.

It's quoted from the actual book, but I'm afraid I've spoiled the joke for you since that's really the only major mentions of dolphins in the book. Oh well, at least now you have more incentive to read the book as the dolphins would now be put into context! And the movie's got the great song "So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish!"!

Still, the movie is a horse of a different color when compared to the book. There are plenty of ideas and plot elements from the book that are in the movie, and one of the main ideas (Arthur Dent's reluctant, if wacky, adventures in space) is preserved. But I've always considered the film to be an original story that owes much of its source material to the book, and not necessarily an "adaptation" of the book in the traditional sense of the word. Too much is changed and some not for the better.

So I have to ask, approximately how tall is Wall-E supposed to be?

I never really thought of that, but considering his proportions compared to the standard cooler he has on his back, perhaps someone could figure out how tall he is from that?



Albert