The Little Mermaid (Live-Action)

[D82]

Do white people need to see every white character to be blackwashed to get used to see people of color on screens, D82? We had plenty of movies with people of color, like Mulan, Moana and so on. But that isn’t enough and now white people need to be punished by blackwashing every white character?

Lol. People were crying and screaming that some background actors that we won’t even see on screen and who were used to create a crowd effect were white on Aladdin and somehow that was right and ok, but now white people "need" to have every white character blackwashed huh.

No, I don't think every character needs to be racebent, but Halle is only the first Black live-action Disney princess in a remake. And in my opinion, a remake is a perfect opportunity to do something like this. It's not like this is the first adaptation of the tale to the screen. If it was, then I would understand the backlash a bit more. Anyway, I don't understand how it can be a punishment to get someone so beautiful and who sings so well in the role. Is it that difficult to relate to somebody just because they have a different skin color?

[Marce82]

Hey D82!

I actually liked the new version of Kiss The Girl as well... the beginning of that clip we got sounded strange, but the rest sounded good. Still have issues on how it was directed.

The reason I will not pay to see this movie is mainly because it is my way of saying to Disney "please stop these damn remakes". I have not liked ANY of them, and they have ranged from severely mediocre to pile-of-sh**. I actually left the theater upset a couple of times when seeing these remakes. And like you, I have zero intention of ever seeing them again. (I admit the Jungle Book one was passable)

I also admit that the fact that half (or more) of this movie takes place under water... which, in my opinion, can't be done in a believable way in live action. So it's already a losing battle. But I do intend to watch this movie when it becomes available digitally.

Since you are in Spain... I have a question about TLM'89 for you: how do you feel about the two spanish dubs? thoughts? preferences?

(actually, the new spanish version of POYW sounds pretty good)

[Lele]

Do white people need to see every white character to be blackwashed to get used to see people of color on screens, D82? We had plenty of movies with people of color, like Mulan, Moana and so on. But that isn’t enough and now white people need to be punished by blackwashing every white character?

Lol. People were crying and screaming that some background actors that we won’t even see on screen and who were used to create a crowd effect were white on Aladdin and somehow that was right and ok, but now white people "need" to have every white character blackwashed huh.

No, I don't think every character needs to be racebent, but Halle is only the first Black live-action Disney princess in a remake. And in my opinion, a remake is a perfect opportunity to do something like this. It's not like this is the first adaptation of the tale to the screen. If it was, then I would understand the backlash a bit more. Anyway, I don't understand how it can be a punishment to get someone so beautiful and who sings so well in the role. Is it that difficult to relate to somebody just because they have a different skin color?

Well, isn’t that the whole argument used, that non-white people can’t relate to white characters so the white characters must be changed to be non-white, and a white person can’t play a non-white character because non-whites won’t relate to it anymore?

Doesn’t that logic work the other way around, or it’s only white people who must shut up and relate to non white character and let originally white characters get racebend?

If it was so bad that some background actors that we won’t even see on screen were white in Aladdin, it’s all good here?

[Marce82]

Note: my not wanting to watch this movie in theaters has nothing to do with the racebending, though I AM against it. DISNEY'S version of the mermaid has white skin, blue eyes, red hair, purple seashells and a green tail.
I would have been just as against it if they had a white Ariel with an orange tail instead of green.

[Marce82]

So here is another viewpoint (though it isn't my main one):

If we agree that when Disney makes an adaptation (not remake) of an existing story, the design of the characters become THE most popular depiction of it (as in, when we think of the beast, we think of Disney's depiction; when we think of SW, we think of Disney's depiction)... then how would/do the Danish feel about this new Ariel?

If anyone here is from Denmark, please comment!

And on that note, D82... how would you feel is Disney made an adaptation of Don Quixote... but he was black? Or Indian? And from then on, every time someone looked up the character, the first image that came up would be the Disney version...

[UmbrellaFish]

But Jodi Benson isn’t Danish either? The film was made by American artists in the US. Is the little mermaid’s whiteness more important to HC Andersen’s version of the story than her tragic death? Her death was the point, it was the whole message of his story and Disney changed that in 1989. Ariel being black is this version is a superficial change comparatively.

I mean… music like “Someday My Prince Will Come” did not even exist in the days of the Brothers Grimm, yet Snow White still sings the song. I just don’t understand why some updates and changes to the source material are okay, and others aren’t. I don’t understand why people are bothered. I just don’t get it.

[Disney's Divinity]

Yeah, I do find the discourse around the racebend disturbing. Are these people saying they didn't like or identify with Ariel before, but solely because her skin color is dark here--they do now? The story is the same... It shows a creepy lack of empathy. It would be like if I hadn't been able to identify with characters like Pocahontas, Aladdin, Mulan, etc. growing up because "they don't look like me." Story is supposed to transcend identity. Personally, as a gay person growing up watching cinema with a void of heterosexual couples, I never had a problem identifying with people who weren't like me in the Disney romances, Titanic and so on even if I'd have liked to see a movie that featured LGBT characters eventually. But even then...not all films with LGBT characters appeal to me simply because they're LGBT, only some do (I never liked Brokeback Mountain but love Call Me by Your Name)--because of story, not merely the identity of the characters.

Anyway, I don't feel Halle Bailey has many haters out there, this is a nontroversy stirred by Disney themselves. Sure, out in the ether on Twitter, you can find a crazy of any variety somewhere. If anything, I heard the same or worse said by Cynthia Erivo's "haters" in response to the Pinocchio remake. It's weird that the same people on hyper-defense here had nothing to say then. I guess some people's perception of what to criticize and what not is merely: "Who is my friend and who isn't?" That's why I don't take most of what's said here to be very genuine, simply attempts to deliberately incite arguments and antagonize certain people you already didn't like. If it was, you'd have applied it the same across all scenarios, not merely against certain posters and not others. And regardless of Disney purposefully keeping the spotlight on race here because that's a shield for them--I'm willing to bet that most people who criticized the casting weren't responding to her skin color at all, but the fact that she doesn't have bright red hair like the original. It's only incidental that a Black person doesn't have bright red hair naturally? If that's "racist," argue with God about it, He made it that way. And even then, they could've digitally altered her hair to be a bright red since they made all the sisters look impossible and nonsensical anyway, including bras being part of their body.

Personally, I hate the change that there is no wedding. The biggest tearjerker in the film is Triton and Ariel's hug at the wedding at the end as he "gives her away," Eric and Triton bowing to one another, and Triton's rainbow as the boat sails away showing his blessing on it all. Getting married isn't anti-feminist, imo.

I'm not surprised Sebastian kind of works. The overly realistic animals in the remakes have never bothered me. I actually think Pumbaa is cuter in the TLK remake than the original.

[UmbrellaFish]

Divinity, I agree with you. There are definitely posters here who want to stir the pot, and I honestly doubt they genuinely mean half of what they write.

But y’know, I get the people who say it means something when they see a mermaid who looks like them. I love history, but reading my history textbooks growing up I would have been led to believe that either homosexuality did not exist or gay people did not achieve greatness. As an adult, I’ve learned about so many great or interesting LGBT figures that were kept obscure to me as a child. Maybe if I had known about them, coming out of the closet would have been a little less traumatic. The queerest book I read growing up was the one about the little boy who had a baby doll and I’ve never forgotten it. But that was pretty much all I had. I’m glad queer kids have more representation now. I bet Halle’s Ariel will have similarly positive repercussions for black girls as they grow up.

[Disney's Divinity]

Well, I can understand why someone who already liked Ariel, who has liked and identified with Ariel their whole life--and who's Black--would get joy out of a racebent Ariel. I do understand that feeling, I'd probably have felt similar if they genderbent Ariel so that Ariel and Eric were both men, I suppose. It's more the weird thing of saying people wouldn't have liked her otherwise that's odd to me. Still, fans of the original film are naturally going to be attached to original designs which include color palettes and Ariel's hair is the biggest part of hers.

[Lele]

But Jodi Benson isn’t Danish either? The film was made by American artists in the US. Is the little mermaid’s whiteness more important to HC Andersen’s version of the story than her tragic death? Her death was the point, it was the whole message of his story and Disney changed that in 1989. Ariel being black is this version is a superficial change comparatively.

I mean… music like “Someday My Prince Will Come” did not even exist in the days of the Brothers Grimm, yet Snow White still sings the song. I just don’t understand why some updates and changes to the source material are okay, and others aren’t. I don’t understand why people are bothered. I just don’t get it.

Mulan also had quite a lot of changes compared to the original and was made by american artists in the US. So they can make her white now according to your logic? Same with Aladdin.

[lord-of-sith]

If we agree that when Disney makes an adaptation (not remake) of an existing story, the design of the characters become THE most popular depiction of it (as in, when we think of the beast, we think of Disney's depiction; when we think of SW, we think of Disney's depiction)... then how would/do the Danish feel about this new Ariel?

No version of a character from any of these remakes has become THE popular depiction of the character, so you won't find much agreement on that. Outside of maybe the year the remake is released, the characters are merchandised from the original animated films. The closest to "overtaking" the original character recognizability is probably Angelina Jolie as Maleficent, and even she isn't merchandised anymore.

The more the discussion about Ariel's skin tone is had, the more obviously racist it is. This is a new version with a new Ariel. White people losing their minds because a character's race was changed for a different version of the story is racist, no way around it.

[Disney's Divinity]

I don't remember Angelina Jolie's Maleficent ever overtaking the original even slightly. It might have intensified it just because she looks so much like the original.

I disagree. I think there are some people whose motivation has always been for all the remakes to be as different as possible who want the discussion to be about "racism" because race-baiting can bend the course of a topic their way rather than the discussion being about "the movie is unfaithful to its source" because they know being for the latter is a hard sell going by how things went in discussions on all the other remakes where they changed as much as possible.

[Lele]

If we agree that when Disney makes an adaptation (not remake) of an existing story, the design of the characters become THE most popular depiction of it (as in, when we think of the beast, we think of Disney's depiction; when we think of SW, we think of Disney's depiction)... then how would/do the Danish feel about this new Ariel?

No version of a character from any of these remakes has become THE popular depiction of the character, so you won't find much agreement on that. Outside of maybe the year the remake is released, the characters are merchandised from the original animated films. The closest to "overtaking" the original character recognizability is probably Angelina Jolie as Maleficent, and even she isn't merchandised anymore.

The more the discussion about Ariel's skin tone is had, the more obviously racist it is. This is a new version with a new Ariel. White people losing their minds because a character's race was changed for a different version of the story is racist, no way around it.

Well then, hope you keep the same narrative about black, asian, polynesian etc people being racist if Mulan, Tiana, Aladdin etc are made white

Weirdly though despite all the people complaining about some background actors in Aladdin being white, or a light hawaiian playing Nani, or some Lion King fanarts drawing them as white, no one was calling them racist, I wonder why

[Farerb]

Personally, I'd prefer Disney wouldn't make them, but at the same time I'm curious to see how they've been adapted, how everything looks in live-action, and in this case, I'm especially looking forward to listen to the new songs. But usually I watch them just once, as it's not that pleasant an experience for me to do so, and I prefer to have the memories of the originals in my mind.

Same.

[Disney's Divinity]

I see that Disney started doing the same thing with the criticism of how Flounder turned out here by having Jacob Tremblay "speaking out." All the people who don't like the change to the original design are simply anti-fish or anti-children or...something.

Scrolling through some pictures of news articles, wow--Jacob Tremblay has aged a lot. I guess because this film was delayed a year. Bailey looked pretty in the dress she wore at the walkout carpet; she wore something mermaid-esque. I think the tail in the film would've been prettier if it looked more similar to the lower half of that dress without all the extra adornments. She said something about being "honored" to play the character--and that's why I like her and won't let the online rancor affect my opinion of her. I haven't seen pictures of the other cast from the event (although they were probably there).

EDIT:
There's this article which sounds like the discussion from the last page or two back :

Live-Action 'The Little Mermaid's "Kiss the Girl" Ruins Everything Good About the Original Version
https://decider.com/2023/05/08/live-act ... -terrible/

[Farerb]

Melissa McCarthy shared a new clip with Ursula:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsEYd2_A ... BiNWFlZA==

[Sotiris]

According to people who saw the film yesterday, the "Poor Unfortunate Souls" reprise is not in the movie. Vanessa just hums the song in that scene.

That makes no sense. Why would they have her hum it and not sing it? What's the purpose of that? The only reason I can think of is they didn't want the voice of a black actress coming out of a white character. Ridiculous. By the way, have you heard if the choral reprise of POYW during the finale made the cut or not? It's unlikely it did, but who knows?

It occurred to me that perhaps they didn't want to end the movie with a wedding in case there's a sequel, since they usually prefer the main characters to be single, especially if they're as young as the protagonists here.

I don't think a wedding would have stopped them. Aladdin and Jasmine got married in the remake and a sequel was announced not long after. The reason was clearly political. They didn't want Ariel to marry someone she hasn't known for very long.

More than one journalist who has seen the movie has also confirmed Ariel doesn't wear any ballgown in the movie; just the blue and white/pink dresses we've seen, the one made of sails, and the nightgown. I wonder why they didn't give her one.

So, no sea foam dress? Ariel emerging from the water in her sea foam dress was one of the coolest moments in the original. I'm guessing that's gone too, then. Are the filmmakers trying to sabotage this film? Some of the changes they've made are truly mind-boggling.

Personally, I hate the change that there is no wedding. The biggest tearjerker in the film is Triton and Ariel's hug at the wedding at the end as he "gives her away," Eric and Triton bowing to one another, and Triton's rainbow as the boat sails away showing his blessing on it all.

Agreed. Perhaps the scene can still happen in some way when Ariel and Eric are sailing off on their voyage. Of course, even if it does it will be less impactful. Going on a cruise with your boyfriend just doesn't carry the same emotional weight as getting married.

[Disney's Divinity]

I didn't think about the choral music at the end possibly being cut, but I suppose I should've expected it considering the opening is going to be largely music-less until you get to Ariel's grotto. And now knowing there's no wedding at the end, that pretty much seals the deal. A choral arrangement playing in the background of a sort of mellow scene with Eric and Ariel alone on the ship wouldn't really fit, it only makes sense with a big celebration with all the characters around happening like a wedding.

I don't get why they don't simply have a fade out like with Aladdin and Jasmine. I had assumed that must be a honeymoon scene they were going to end on initially, not that they cut the wedding.

[lord-of-sith]

Well then, hope you keep the same narrative about black, asian, polynesian etc people being racist if Mulan, Tiana, Aladdin etc are made white

Ah there it is, the same racist arguing point that's been made over and over since Bailey's casting was announced. If you don't understand the difference between casting a black actress in a character where the race doesn't really matter (despite her being white before), and casting a white actress in a role where the race/setting is a huge element of the story, then there's really nothing I can say. You fundamentally lack an understanding of how representation and society works.

[PatchofBlue]

I'm stepping into hot water here, but ...

Something I might add to the racebending conversation is that racism and prejudice are not technically the same thing. Prejudice just refers to a generalized idea (typically a false and/or derogatory one) about another group of people whereas racism specifically refers to the system by which racial minorities are subjugated by the ruling power. Any group or ethnicity can technically hold prejudice toward another group, like black people toward white people, but it doesn't follow to say that black people are "racist" toward white people for celebrating something like a black mermaid. As society currently functions, white people are the privileged class and do not face the same hurdles that racial minorities do. You can't be racist toward a group of people who are not penalized for their race.

You also see this imbalance perpetuated in things like the sheer number of white characters in pop culture compared to the number of characters of any other ethnicity. You racebend Ariel and Snow White, and you still have like five white princesses, plus thirty other white protagonists who aren't princesses. Someone like Mulan, on the other hand, is one of three Asian leads within the Disney catalogue (and we only got Raya and Hiro in the last ten years). Taking away one of the rare icons of Asian representation has a very different implication than letting one of the bajillion white princesses be something other than white.

Not trying to PWN anyone or anything, I swear. Just some things to consider ...

In other news, this person shared some insights from reading the novelization. Many of their insights corroborate things we'd already heard, but there are a couple that I hadn't known before like Ariel discovering what crying is after she realizes Eric doesn't recognize her.

https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugkxg4dgoV ... G2dawR_Nw0

Another thing about Disney trying to push in these remakes that "it's not just about a guy, our princess is so much more than just her romance!" is that it inevitably and unnecessarily undermines the love story that is very much at the heart of the story they are telling. This was particularly grating with the "Beauty and the Beast" remake where the entire narrative being spun was how cool this new and empowered Belle was, such that both The Beast and Belle's relationship with The Beast were somewhat limp in the final product. It was like they didn't want anyone to believe that this Belle was actually invested in a romance with The Beast, and so they made no effort into things like chemistry.

The film they are adapting is a romance whether they wish it was or not, and it is perfectly feasible to have a love story in which the female characters especially are not made out to be these lifeless little rag dolls. Something like the spoilertagged detail feels like a natural outgrowth of the animated film, but it kind of rubs up against the thesis of the new films and Ariel "wanting so much more than just a man."