Episode 4: A New Hope for Gay UD Threads?

[Lazario]

Burning Bibles is going out of your way to purposely hurt what the Bible stands for to people.

Will someone get the violin?

What I'm doing is not to purposely hurt something.

I'm sure a lot of people who pay for cold-blooded murder are under the same delusion.

It's to treat something as no big deal and nothing that's going to stop me. What will money to ant-gay organizations even do? Everyone knows gays are winning bit by bit. We're getting accepted more and more each day.

Where's 'junkie and his "rose-tinted glasses" speech when we need it?

And there's probably lots of places that use our money for anti-gay organizations that we don't know about. We just know about Chik-Fil-A.

Wow... one good point in an otherwise odious reply. This should be framed.

[ProfessorRatigan]

EDIT: Sorry! I was responding to Disney Duster and didn't see Lazario had responded.

^The money given to the anti-gay Family Research Council VERY NEARLY got being gay a CRIME punishable by DEATH in Uganda. Let's not pretend there aren't real-world ramifications to this.

Anyone with a conscious could not in good faith continue giving money to such a company that would see giving money to groups like FRC as a 'Christianly' thing to do.

I love how a lot of people (even supposedly progressive or liberal people like Jon Stewart!) are lately all, 'well, it's only a corporation donating MILLIONS of dollars! Since when have corporations EVER been able to affect societal issues with their money?' Oh, wait... Are these people really serious? I mean, REALLY? Did they forget that this is AMERICA all of a sudden? Since when do corporations and their money NOT affect every thing in this country? And to act so cavalier about this. "Oh, it's just a chicken company...quit being so UPTIGHT about this, faggots," seems to be the message I'm seeing from most people online over this. (Even self-described LGBT allies!) Because I guess you aren't liberal or progressive or whatever if you aren't also tolerating intolerance from the religious. -I swear if I read one more Tumblr post about how 'gays need to respect Christian beliefs...'

[Disney Duster]

Lazario you're attacking me. Please apologize. I am not attacking anyone like you are doing, you're being unfair and cruel. What you said you do is trying to harm something people deeply value and care for, while I was talking about taking the harm/effect away from something people hate.

If the kind of places Chick-fil-A are sending money to are actually effecting gay rights in the way Ratigan said, only then do I find it to be an actual problem that I eat there.

[Alphapanchito]

I kind of agree with duster here. It's just another rich white man who gives his money to anti-gay organizations. There are a bunch of them. Obviously t's really wrong, but i'm not going to worry about a chicken sandwich. And not only because I am a vegetarian.

What I will worry about is the lesbian woman who had 3 men break into her house about two weeks ago and attempt to set it on fire, carving homophobic slurs into the woman's body in the meantime. I care about all the queer (especially POC) people who are murdered on the street and nothing is really done about it. I care about CeCe, a trans woman who is currently in a men's prison for defending herself when she was brutally attacked by several men. Stuff like this happens to often to recall. Queer people are being attacked and murdered all the time, yet we throw a fit about a chicken sandwich.

And there really is no concrete evidence that they tried to get the Ugandan death penalty thing going. It seems what they actually tried to do is remove certain language stating that homosexuality was a international human right written in the resolution the US had to stop the ugandan bill. Which is wrong of them too, but not quite as bad as wanting to give gays the death penalty. Again, what this really is is another rich, white guy giving his money to "pro-family" organizations that "sanctify" marriage and help "Ex-LGBT people".

[Sotiris]

Queer people are being attacked and murdered all the time, yet we throw a fit about a chicken sandwich.

While I definitely agree that there're more pressing matters that tantalize the LGBT community than another conservative millionaire opposing same-sex marriage, that does not mean that a major corporation which openly opposes LGBT rights must be left without any protest. While it would be a blessing if more important matters got the exposure and outrage they deserved, that does not negate the fact that people have a legitimate reason to protest and boycott Chick-fil-A.

I kind of agree with duster here. It's just another rich white man who gives his money to anti-gay organizations. There are a bunch of them.

I don't agree with Duster at all. Is he so enamored with their chicken sandwiches that he cannot live without them? Aren't there any other fast food places he could go instead? No one is expecting him to go out and protest in front of the restaurant but the least he could do is choose some other fast food place to frequent. There's really no excuse. While there are other organizations or corporations which have an anti-gay agenda and we may not know about, you at least have the benefit of ignorance there. To knowingly support these organizations is disgraceful. It's not a matter of the amount of money you will spend there, it's the principle of the thing.

And there really is no concrete evidence that they tried to get the Ugandan death penalty thing going. It seems what they actually tried to do is remove certain language stating that homosexuality was a international human right written in the resolution the US had to stop the ugandan bill.

And you consider that trivial? The language used is of utmost importance. By denying that homosexuality is an "international human right" you remove any grounds for a legitimate opposition.

Which is wrong of them too, but not quite as bad as wanting to give gays the death penalty.

Personally, I think that if they could get away with it, these anti-gay groups would openly support that as well. Their hatred has no bounds. A lot of them do, hence the increased number of hate crimes.

[Dr Frankenollie]

What I will worry about is the lesbian woman who had 3 men break into her house about two weeks ago and attempt to set it on fire, carving homophobic slurs into the woman's body in the meantime.

Oh god...that poor, poor woman. Although I do believe that no one deserves to die, stories like this can make me reconsider this belief. Part of me hopes that those loathsome, brainless little shits get horribly mutilated themselves.

[Disney's Divinity]

What I don't get is why LGBT people who still support businesses like CFA don't just save that money to buy a gun and shoot themselves in the foot. You get the same result, only more quickly.

[Lazario]

Good one, Div'.

I kind of agree with duster here. It's just another rich white man who gives his money to anti-gay organizations. There are a bunch of them. Obviously t's really wrong, but i'm not going to worry about a chicken sandwich. And not only because I am a vegetarian.

What I will worry about is the lesbian woman who had 3 men break into her house about two weeks ago and attempt to set it on fire, carving homophobic slurs into the woman's body in the meantime. I care about all the queer (especially POC) people who are murdered on the street and nothing is really done about it. I care about CeCe, a trans woman who is currently in a men's prison for defending herself when she was brutally attacked by several men. Stuff like this happens to often to recall. Queer people are being attacked and murdered all the time, yet we throw a fit about a chicken sandwich.

I'll give you that many people are only adding their voices to this issue because they're selfish and just expect the right to marry without fighting for it and suffering for it. Though even then I can't blame them- look at how many assholes get it for free and "appreciate" it so much, they spend more energy denying others the liberty than they do taking care of their own family which they claim marriage actually affects. Pride's a funny thing.

But even then... what do you think the fight over this issue really represents? Do you assume nobody who could become angry over this issue has any grasp on what's actually at stake?

If you ask me, that's what someone suggests when they're looking for someone to put in their place. Whether they have someone or not and whether that person deserves it or not. It's not that good an idea: intending to place something important into perspective by criticizing the people on your side. You can't get to a north destination by going west.

This was never just about a sandwich to defenders of human rights and you should have known that.

Lazario you're attacking me. Please apologize. I am not attacking anyone like you are doing, you're being unfair and cruel. What you said you do is trying to harm something people deeply value and care for, while I was talking about taking the harm/effect away from something people hate.

I'm not sure there was ever a "you" there, Duster. During discussion, you have a remarkable talent for sending in a remotely lifelike facsimile to relay your message and you forgot to program it to do one truly essential task: receive input after delivering it.

You're desperately reducing what I've said to an attack because it conflicts with your sheltered take on religion and you're doing what most religious people do: claim you're being victimized when someone doesn't agree religion is always helpful.

But remember, we are talking about human lives here. This is not delicate to them: their reality is brutal. Therefore... "forgive me" for treating you "the same way." Let me ease your worry with a proposition: go out onto the street in a very homophobic neighborhood, tell people you're gay but wear a crucifix around your neck, carry a bible in one hand, and in the other a sign that tells everyone how much you love God, how religious you are, hell- even tell them you eat at Chik-Fil-A...

Do you think this will be an occasion where the spark of religious enlightenment will shine through?

[Disney Duster]

Maybe I won't eat at Chick-fil-A then. Just for you guys. I thought eating at Chick-fil-A would take away their power, but if you don't think so, I don't care either way. But in a way me following what you guys want to do is also me being a sheep.

Lazario, I can't even tell what you're saying. But I doubt you're really saying anything right or accurate or that pertains to much at all, and that it has a lot of pretense just because of this "big deal" that is really nothing but another white conservative man using his money whichever way he pleases when there's lots of them out there you're giving money to and don't know it.

[SpringHeelJack]

I thought eating at Chick-fil-A would take away their power...

...how is giving them money supposed to take away their power?

[Lazario]

I thought eating at Chick-fil-A would take away their power...

...how is giving them money supposed to take away their power?

In a not really right or accurate way that pertains to nothing at all, and that has a lot of pretense to it. The way he usually pleases.

[Disney Duster]

Lazario, no, and SpringHeelJHack, I wanted to prove they have no power over me stopping me from enjoying things, and as if what they're doing has no effect. Because there are much bigger deals than this thing. Plus it's about how money doesn't matter, too.

[Elladorine]

Er, not to change the subject, but Lazario . . . every time I see your current avatar?



I want Oreos. Yummy, yummy Oreos. I haven't had any in years but can still remember exactly how they taste.

I sorta wish they actually made them with rainbow colored filling like that, and not just a shopped one for pride support. What would they be, sextuple-stuffed?

[Lazario]

I wanted to prove they have no power over me stopping me from enjoying things

They're not trying to keep you from enjoying a sandwich, they're trying to keep you from enjoying your freedom. This of course won't apply to you until you mature somehow and suddenly want to use your freedom for something more than just annoying people.

And, Duster: yes.

Er, not to change the subject, but Lazario . . . every time I see your current avatar?

I can see the trend:



is catching on.

But I've lost my interest in Oreos apart from the half-width'd fudge ones (mint, peanut butter, and coconut). They're really good.

[Elladorine]

I'd been thinking about switching over to my Rainbow Brite one anyway, and replying about your avatar tipped me over the edge.

I haven't tried any of the fancy Oreos you've mentioned, but they sound good too. I had some of the blue "spring" one a few years ago because they had them at the house where I was babysitting. I'm not against eating them once in a while, but I won't buy them. If I did, I might eat the whole package way too quickly.

[Disney Duster]

Lazario, no times infinity plus anything anyone could ever say and it won't change no matter what you ever say next and you also can't beat that since I said it first. Do I sound immature? You bet. Did I win? You bet.

[Alphapanchito]

Okay so this is probably going to be really long, boring, and repetitive. But it's late so whatever. I just wanted to explain what I meant.

While I definitely agree that there're more pressing matters that tantalize the LGBT community than another conservative millionaire opposing same-sex marriage, that does not mean that a major corporation which openly opposes LGBT rights must be left without any protest.

Totally. I agree that people have a reason to protest Chick-fil-A. But I think it’s ridiculous that this gets all the media attention instead of something like the lesbian woman who had slurs carved into her body or the CeCe thing. Why isn’t anybody protesting the fact that CeCe is in a men’s prison, where she has to be kept in isolation to keep her from being sexually harassed by the other inmates? Why is nobody yelling about how we live in a country (i’m focusing on America, because I think chick fil a is an american thing?) where gay people obviously aren’t safe in their own home. When people start vocalizing that this is not okay, then they can talk about chicken. I’m going to fight for the people in trouble right now, rather than worry about another rich guy wanting to keep marriage between a man and a woman.

While it would be a blessing if more important matters got the exposure and outrage they deserved, that does not negate the fact that people have a legitimate reason to protest and boycott Chick-fil-A.

But that’s the heart of it. Why don’t these things get the exposure and outrage they deserve? My real issue is that Chick-fil-A is getting way too much media and public attention. Attention that should belong to the queer people who have recently been attacked. People need to know about the horrible things going on, and vocalize their anger about it before anything is going to change. I'm not saying that the chick fil a issue isn't real and shouldn't get any attention, just that it should get less. I'm saying these *radical* gays/allies would do so much more good if they spent less time taking pictures while kissing in front of chick fil a (although i do agree, that kind of protest can be really effective) and focus on more pressing issues.

I don't agree with Duster at all. Is he so enamored with their chicken sandwiches that he cannot live without them? Aren't there any other fast food places he could go instead? No one is expecting him to go out and protest in front of the restaurant but the least he could do is choose some other fast food place to frequent. There's really no excuse. While there are other organizations or corporations which have an anti-gay agenda and we may not know about, you at least have the benefit of ignorance there. To knowingly support these organizations is disgraceful. It's not a matter of the amount of money you will spend there, it's the principle of the thing.

I was mostly agreeing with duster on the fact that it isn’t as big a deal as people are making it. He seemed to be the only person who wasn't making it a big deal, hence me "kind of" agreeing with him. But I do agree with you that yeah, if you support gay/queer people, you shouldn’t eat somewhere that obviously made their stance clear. I wouldn’t feel right doing that even if I ate chicken.

Just don’t eat there. Make a list of companies that support anti-gay corporations, or just practice bad business that you don't agree with in general, and don’t eat there. Being a informed consumer is important. That's all there is here. I just don't think it should have developed its own huge movement. CeCe McDonald deserves her own movement. Charlie Rogers (the lesbian victim of the hate crime previously mentioned) deserves her own movement. By the way, after this this attack happened people claimed that the attack was staged. After all this woman just experienced, she was also called a liar. These women need movements. Not a fast food chain who is mostly attempting to fight against gay marriage.

And you consider that trivial? The language used is of utmost importance. By denying that homosexuality is an "international human right" you remove any grounds for a legitimate opposition.

No. I consider that trivial in comparison to what people think they did. Again, I totally realize what they are doing is horrible, and I totally understand that the language used is really important. And this would have been the most damaging thing that Chick-fil-A has done, if it had succeeded. So I totally agree with you there.

But again, most of their money went to marriage sanctity organizations, and it just annoys me that that is all the gay community cares about. When we get equal marriage, are we all going to go home happy and stop fighting to end the oppression of queer people? I am really afraid of that happening, because that means all the queer people will still be getting attacked, the trans people unable to get adequate health care, jobs, and so on. A lot of gay people seem to think marriage is our biggest concern.. and for me, it’s barely an issue. I mean, I don’t even think the state should be involved in marriage in the first place, but that is a different argument. I care more about people’s safety and right to live a life without fear than marriage, at the moment.

I'll give you that many people are only adding their voices to this issue because they're selfish and just expect the right to marry without fighting for it and suffering for it.

I think Lazario helped me realize a reason why all the outcry about chick fil a irks me. I feel like that really is true for a lot of the people speaking out, and if it is, there is no way the fight for rights and safety will continue after we get the right to marry. I've seen people who think the fight is already won! It's just what i'm afraid of. People walking away, leaving the people who are in trouble out in the cold.

But even then... what do you think the fight over this issue really represents? Do you assume nobody who could become angry over this issue has any grasp on what's actually at stake?

No. I do think a lot of them probably don't, but no. The issue here it I don't think there is as much at stake as everybody else seems to. I know there is a lot at stake, but just imagine if all this energy went into blasting the stories of violence against gay/queer people that happens all the time. Imagine if we made our voice loud enough to make people see how some of us have to live in fear of our lives. Don't you think that will change more than trying to take a little money away from chick fil a? Even if you don't agree with the "gay lifestyle" I think most people will agree that nobody deserves to live in fear like that.

It's not that good an idea: intending to place something important into perspective by criticizing the people on your side. You can't get to a north destination by going west.

I know it's not about chicken to anyone (err, most people). But I made that comparison (and I think i made it again in this response) to express how unimportant I think this issue is in comparison to the real issue. It was a slight criticism, yes. I was just poking fun at the fact that it is such a huge event, for such a tiny issue (when put in perspective). It was also a way of expressing anger for the fact that the important issues are being ignored. Was it really that offensive?

Personally, I think that if they could get away with it, these anti-gay groups would openly support that as well. Their hatred has no bounds. A lot of them do, hence the increased number of hate crimes.

That's probably true. But I really don't know what to say about this, because there isn't much to say.

[ProfessorRatigan]

^None of us are saying that no one should be outraged over these hate crimes. They are appalling, viscous, sick and heartbreakingly tragic. I'm sure everyone here agrees that getting protections from violence, losing our jobs/housing and all that passed immediately. But the reason, I think, the chick-fil-a issue has hit so close to home for many of us is because it isn't just one person that it is getting attack. It's ALL of us, as a community, being assaulted. Of course we're going to get riled up when half the country shows up to kick us while we're down.

But let's not make it out like we don't care about the victims of violent hate crimes. We do. And we are outraged. But where is the forum (not online forum, like MEDIA forum) for that anger? You think the news media outlets care, or will give any air time to such issues? Only when it's a Matthew Shepherd type situation.

That's a shame. It really is. We SHOULD rally around more than just the marriage issue, but the marriage issue, thanks to news media and cynical politicians grasping for whatever votes they can get from the moral majority, has been pushed to the forefront. We didn't start this. THEY did. But by god, we'll finish it. And we need to stop keeping ourselves down. The first step in doing so requires that we, in solidarity, STAND UP.

And if a fucking chicken restaurant is what it takes to unite us, I'm all fucking for it.

[SpringHeelJack]

Plus it's about how money doesn't matter, too.

...okay except it does, and if you think otherwise you're deluding yourself.

Look, if getting a damn chicken sandwich is more important to you than any other point made here and you want to eat there it's your prerogative, but at least admit that you are contributing money to a cause that hates you.

EDIT:

Also, things like this? This is why under no circumstance is gay bashing okay, I don't care if it's a parent or a corporation.

5 years ago, I was disowned via letter when I came out to my father. This is how hate sounds.
- via reddit

[Disney Duster]

I bet we contribute to causes that hate us all the time without knowing it.