Episode 3: Revenge of the Gays, Are You One Too?

[KennethE]

Honestly, it took me 19 or 20 years to finally accept that I was gay. In hindsight, it was so clearly obvious, but due to religious beliefs and attitudes towards homosexuality that had been pounded in my head by family members, my school (private school attendee), my community, etc. all my life, I was pretty much in denial and such. Not to mention basic naivety - hell, I didn't know it WASN'T normal for little boys to be able to act out every line from The Little Mermaid until I was much older.

Hey man, I'm so sorry to hear how you had to go through all that stuff in your past. But you have NOTHING to be ashamed of, especially when it comes to The Little Mermaid. I actually use to quote every line from the film too (even though I'm not gay.) I'm STILL quoting from it down to this day! If anyone gives me grief over it I just tell 'em. "Hey, Little Mermaid was a GREAT film with a GREAT screenplay, and GREAT music!" Too many people think too much in terms of black and white. You're "normal" or you're gay. It's a boy movie or a girl movie.

...Now some guys I know who lovingly quote Transformers 2 --- now THAT'S a joke!

[Siren]

Some of my friends and family fear I may be turning gay.

I met a girl at work, a lesbian and we have become good friends. She invited me over her house, so she could cut and dye my hair. What was suppose to be a couple hours turned into 5+ hours, I came home at 3AM. That was the latest I ever stayed out, ever. It was like a big lesbian party. All but 3 of us were lesbians. And 1 of them, I wouldn't be surprised if she was bi.

The one guy at work who wants to date me was asking what I was doing tonight and I told him watching Buffy. He asks me what channel and I tell him Logo. He asks me what that channel is. "Its the gay channel?"
"The what?"
"Gay channel. Gays, lesbians, bi, same sex love and all that jazz."
I think he was a bit flabbergasted.....Oh....his silly conservative, republican, christian ways....I think deep down he likes me because he wants to see what its like to be with one of those liberal, wiccan, bad girls

[Margos]

Some of my friends and family fear I may be turning gay.

And how does one go about doing that?

[Flanger-Hanger]

Some of my friends and family fear I may be turning gay.

And how does one go about doing that?

By first begin silly enough to associate the word "fear" with "gay", if that was their choice of words.

[ajmrowland]

Like people associate the word "stupid" or "dumb" with "gay", right? Different saying, same attitude.

[PrincePhillipFan]

It really makes me sad to hear how ignorant some people like that, Siren. I've run into a few people who think that because someone is gay or bi it's an infectious disease or something.

Reminds me of a discussion I got into recently with someone on a message board about Greek mythology. Someone was afraid of taking their child to see Percy Jackson because they heard from a friend "It has gay tones in it and I don't want my child catching them." I'm astounded by the fact that even such ignorance exists and I've seen it first hand at my college's center. I also told them they better steer completely clear of Greek myths then in general - Zeus and the prince Ganymede, Apollo and his love affairs with the prince Hyacinthus, the hunter Cyparissus, and the god of marriage ceremonies Hymenaios, Achilles and Patrocolus, Heracles and the prince Hylas, Pan and the shepherd boy Daphnis...If they're afraid of anything GLBT related, they better steer clear of ancient Greece because there's a whole lot of male love/ relationships there.

[Margos]

If they're afraid of anything GLBT related, they better steer clear of ancient Greece because there's a whole lot of male love/ relationships there.

It does seem that males have sort of a monopoly on GLBT in Greek Mythology (at least, I think so. I haven't heard too many female love stories)..... I wonder why that is?
Well, at least they had Sappho!

[PrincePhillipFan]

If they're afraid of anything GLBT related, they better steer clear of ancient Greece because there's a whole lot of male love/ relationships there.

It does seem that males have sort of a monopoly on GLBT in Greek Mythology (at least, I think so. I haven't heard too many female love stories)..... I wonder why that is?
Well, at least they had Sappho!

I think probably because ancient Greece was such bit of a male dominated in society. However oddly enough, it seems in the religious aspect women were seen as equal intelligence and strength to their counterparts, such as Artemis being just as strong as her brother, and Athena always outwitting her nitwit warrior brother Ares. I think that's why I'm more partial to the Olympians than real ancient Greece culture in general. I'm very fascinated by the real ancient society, but it's a bit sexist and male dominated compared to the goddesses in mythology. Homosexuality in ancient Greece fell into two types of forms as well: the most predominant was pedastry which was an older man paired with a teenaged boy, sort of like a thing of dominance. Women to men of the ancient Greek world were sadly seen mostly for only childbirth and keeping the home while the men themselves had a teenaged boy that they loved as their companion. So you can sort of see why I'm not big on the actual Greek culture since the relationships were mostly weird dominant things and sexism which I don't approve of.

Those elements sometimes seeped over into mythology, but for the most part, many of the homosexual stories in Grecian mythology are ones of actual romance or attraction. I think the best example is Apollo himself. He was always seen himself as being a teenaged boy; the ideal form of male youthful beauty, so his relationships were seen in more of the romantic liaisions and not the creepy pedastric way.

Lesbanism does occasionally pop up though, as you said with Sappho. Another one I heard is there was perhaps a romantic love Artemis had with Callisto, one of her virgin nymphs. It's been said that she secretly loved her dearly, hence why she was so outraged when she heard of her sexual encounter with Zeus.

A brief history lesson of the day.

[Margos]

Tim, you are a fountain of knowledge, thank you! I had no idea how messed up Greek society was, though. I thought it was all like the myths, and mostly egalitarian. Well, now I know better.

But yes, I've always wondered if Artemis was a lesbian, knowing the Ancient Greek attitude to homosexuality, and how harshly she treated a man who saw her naked.

[PrincePhillipFan]

Tim, you are a fountain of knowledge, thank you! I had no idea how messed up Greek society was, though. I thought it was all like the myths, and mostly egalitarian. Well, now I know better.

But yes, I've always wondered if Artemis was a lesbian, knowing the Ancient Greek attitude to homosexuality, and how harshly she treated a man who saw her naked.

lol, that's why I prefer to follow more of the mythology than the actual culture. When you think about it, Greek mythology itself is so radically different and hypocritical of actual ancient Greek society you have to wonder how they meshed the two together. Women were seen in a low level in the actual society, yet there were so many Greek Goddesses who had abilities that were as strong and even stronger than male counterparts, such as Hera, Artemis, Athena. Homoerotic relationships also seem to pop up a lot in Greek mythology particularly with Apollo and his deep passion for those whoever he had an affair with. Yet oddly enough, in contrast actual Greek society saw it more of a dominance/ teaching issue. There were still many instances of real life relationships of elder gentlemen and teenaged boys having homoerotic relationships and love affairs with people of their age, but for the most part the companion thing was always mostly dominance than anything really romantically related. Which again, seems to go hugely against mythology since Apollo and the other gods carried on their homoerotic love affairs in romance and devotion to those they loved. The Greeks are sometimes a mass of contradiction when you look at their actual society compared to the more romantic, more sexually equal positions they held in their religious beliefs.

[ajmrowland]

If the American Public knew that, one of two things would happen. Chances are:

99.9% we would all ridicule the Greeks and Greek Mythology and even further try to push our own hypocritical religious values

.1% it would actually make us think of our society and how overprotective we are agains things that have been happening for thousands of years.

[pap64]

Siren's dilemma just made me wonder... And pardon my ignorance.

Let's pretend that X couple get divorced, and parent A wins the custody of their child. Now, parent A comes out of the closet and starts dating someone of the same sex. And it's the full meal. Sex, dating, even marriage talk! Now, parent B hears that the ex has come out of the closet and realizes that his child is witnessing all the "depravity" parent A is doing.

My question is since the norm is that gay=the root of all evil could parent B sue parent A and demand the custody rights and say in court that the kid is growing up with a gay parent and thus isn't safe?

Not saying that this is how life is, but considering how intolerant people are of homosexuality I wouldn't be surprise if they went through many lengths to remove a child from a gay household, even if the kid is well fed, goes to school, is healthy and doesn't seem affected at all by the fact that his parent is dating a gay person.

[Disney Duster]

Women to men of the ancient Greek world were sadly seen mostly for only childbirth and keeping the home while the men themselves had a teenaged boy that they loved as their companion.

Doesn't this mean it wasn't just about dominance? You said they loved them, as a companion. Were they like "I need to be with a teenage boy because he is more my equal than a woman"?

[PrincePhillipFan]

If the American Public knew that, one of two things would happen. Chances are:

99.9% we would all ridicule the Greeks and Greek Mythology and even further try to push our own hypocritical religious values

.1% it would actually make us think of our society and how overprotective we are agains things that have been happening for thousands of years.

I'm actually surprised it already hasn't happened yet. Lots of middle schools love to gloss over that aspect of Greek Paganism and history that looking back on it now, I'm surprised they managed to get away with it since it plays a large role. With how insanely protective these people are, I wouldn't be surprised if they banned knowledge of Greek mythology in classrooms. From what I've been hearing too, it sadly seems like more and more middle schools are abandoning the concept of teaching Greek Paganism and Egyptology to them.

Doesn't this mean it wasn't just about dominance? You said they loved them, as a companion. Were they like "I need to be with a teenage boy because he is more my equal than a woman"?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Homosexuality was a tricky double standard thing seen in ancient Greece culture. It was perfectly acceptable (and in most cases required) that an elder man in his 30s have a teenaged boy as his companion. Sometimes this sort of relationship would merely involve tutoring the boy and courting and romancing him, and nothing more than that. Yet there were still many instances however of sexual intercourse taking place as well between them. Interestingly, while women had little role in deciding who they would marry, teenage boys were allowed by their fathers to chose whoever their elder male suitor. would be. Generally, this relationship would continue until the boy would reach 18, at which point he would then be married off to a woman. However, there are many cases of men continuing their homosexual relationships and never marrying after they reached 18, yet they were often condescendingly looked down upon it. For a boy once he passed 18 to allow himself to continue the relationship with his suitor and assume the "passive" role, he would be seen as they'd call it "making a woman of himself" and be ridiculed for this way of life.

However, this form of social ridicule didn't necessarily dissuade many famous elder homosexual/ bisexual couples in ancient Greece. Two of the most historic male adult couples were the playwright Euripides and his partner Agathon the poet, and Alexander the Great and his childhood friend Hephaestion.

Again, as I stated before, I always find this rather peculiar of the Greeks, as in their religion the homosexual love affairs of the gods were portrayed in a romantic and much more acceptal fashion, such as Apollo's romantic male exploits, and Achilles and Patroclus.

For some interesting information on it, I recommend this wikia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... _adult_men

Not saying that this is how life is, but considering how intolerant people are of homosexuality I wouldn't be surprise if they went through many lengths to remove a child from a gay household, even if the kid is well fed, goes to school, is healthy and doesn't seem affected at all by the fact that his parent is dating a gay person.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if such ruling would happen. Sadly many homosexual couples still cannot adopt because of prejudiced rules by certain adoption agencies, deeming them not proper for the child.

[pap64]

Not saying that this is how life is, but considering how intolerant people are of homosexuality I wouldn't be surprise if they went through many lengths to remove a child from a gay household, even if the kid is well fed, goes to school, is healthy and doesn't seem affected at all by the fact that his parent is dating a gay person.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if such ruling would happen. Sadly many homosexual couples still cannot adopt because of prejudiced rules by certain adoption agencies, deeming them not proper for the child.

And it's rather hypocritical too.

When the court decides to give the child to a parent they are assuming that he or she is capable of raising a child and thus is in safe hand. Yet, people forget that serial killers, murderers, prostitutes, criminals, college drop outs, losers, slackers etc. CAN still happen in an heterosexual household. It all depends on HOW the child is raised. I seriously doubt that a kid will become very messed up in a gay household.

What's the worse that could happen? That the kid sees homosexuality as being an OK thing since his parents were both gay? People fear that the kid will become a perverted gay guy or lesbian, but right now in HETEROSEXUAL households little girls are acting like little prostitutes while boys are treating women as if they were juicy pieces of meat. If there's such a big fear that a child might be traumatized in a gay household shouldn't there be more rules and regulations in heterosexual households since the child can still grow up to be a messed up individual if there isn't a proper education.

[PatrickvD]

okay, so who here has done the 'coming out' by bringing home the boyfriend for dinner? I think I might just do it that way. I'm not much of a talker, but I do love pushing buttons.

Or is that a recipe for disaster?

[Disney's Divinity]

Again, as I stated before, I always find this rather peculiar of the Greeks, as in their religion the homosexual love affairs of the gods were portrayed in a romantic and much more acceptal fashion, such as Apollo's romantic male exploits, and Achilles and Patroclus.

Something else I've always found odd is that many of the homosexual exploits in Greek mythology, particularly when the gods were involved, they seemed more loving than heterosexual relationships. Zeus seemed to have a lot more love for Ganymede than he did for Io, Semele, Europa, etc. And Apollo seemed more "in love" with Hyacinth than Daphne. The women seem to often be lustful conquests rather than loving. I guess that's connected to how they saw women as inferior to men, to some extent. Which is odd in itself, considering they had goddesses.

Anyway, I've read over and over many times that "there have been found no differences between children of gay couples and children of heterosexual couples," but most of the time, since homophobia and heterosexism are so widespread, the judge will overlook that bit of info. and give the child to the heterosexual parent regardless. If it's a gay father, then he has practically no chance at all. Mothers win most cases against fathers anyway, and, throwing in the gay thing, it's very doubtful a gay man would have any possibility of winning custody.

[PrincePhillipFan]

okay, so who here has done the 'coming out' by bringing home the boyfriend for dinner? I think I might just do it that way. I'm not much of a talker, but I do love pushing buttons.

Or is that a recipe for disaster?

I think it all depends upon your parents. If you think they would be okay with it, then I'd say go for it if you really like to do it that way. However, if you think they'd be less than enuthusiastic, then yeah it might be a recipe for disaster. I know I had a bit of a hard time with my mom for a little when I came out about being bi, and even then that was only on the phone when I was away on campus.

Something else I've always found odd is that many of the homosexual exploits in Greek mythology, particularly when the gods were involved, they seemed more loving than heterosexual relationships. Zeus seemed to have a lot more love for Ganymede than he did for Io, Semele, Europa, etc. And Apollo seemed more "in love" with Hyacinth than Daphne. The women seem to often be lustful conquests rather than loving. I guess that's connected to how they saw women as inferior to men, to some extent. Which is odd in itself, considering they had goddesses.

That's interesting that you brought it up since I never really thought of it that way before. Most of the female relationships that many male gods had with women seemed to be the "fooling around" kind than an ardent romantic interest. I think this is especially true of Zeus and Ganymede since he just abducted him, similiar to how Hades became enraptured with Persephone and kidnapped her.

Apollo and Daphne was always an odd one for me, and I more chalk it up to Apollo being blindly in love. The way the story goes is supposedly Apollo had been teasing Cupid about his arrows being so small and being less powerful compared to his. In order to get back and make an ass out of Apollo, he shot one of the arrows at him, causing him to fall madly in love and chase after Daphne. Some stories say that Apollo already had a bit of a fancy for the nymph before getting shot, while others say that he merely fell in love with her on sight. But regardless, I chalk that one up to more him being blinded in lust by Eros' arrows.

Again, another reason why I'm so attracted to Apollo more than any other god. To me he's one of the most dimensional and made a huge temperment change from being an unruly kid in his first divine years as a god, when he matured and became the eternal teenager and also the god of moderation. I think overall he shared an equal romantic love for both the men and women in his relationships since he was so passionate with both, but I agree with you that Hyacinthus was probably the strongest love he ever had. Even in the Songs of Orpheus from "Ovid's Metamorphosis", he says "Phoebus loved you Hyacinthus...My father Phoebus preferred you above all the others, abandoning Delphi, his city at the earth's navel, while he frequented the banks of the river Eurotas and haunted unfortified Sparta, paying no mind to music and archery, skills that brought him great honor; careless of his own pursuits, he happily carried the net, and held back the dogs, and played the good sport by scrambling up the jagged ridges of mountains, while his beloved's continual presence kept him afire."

To be fair, there are many passionate and romantic heretosexual love affairs in ancient Greece, such as Eros and Psyche, and Dionysus and the princess Ariadne. But I think you're right in that it seems like that many of the homosexual relationships with the gods seemed to be a lot more romantic than the others.

Anyway, I've read over and over many times that "there have been found no differences between children of gay couples and children of heterosexual couples," but most of the time, since homophobia and heterosexism are so widespread, the judge will overlook that bit of info. and give the child to the heterosexual parent regardless. If it's a gay father, then he has practically no chance at all. Mothers win most cases against fathers anyway, and, throwing in the gay thing, it's very doubtful a gay man would have any possibility of winning custody.

One argument I've also heard from the adoption agencies is that "children of homosexual couples will be faced with more problems of being teased by fellow students." I think this is a really piss poor excuse, as you've stated that many homosexual couples have shown they can raise a child just as well and many times better than heterosexual couples. I would also place the blame more into the fault of the other children's and the prejudices they sometimes receive from their parents. They need to understand that just because one child's parents are different from the "norm" that doesn't make their family any less than theirs. It's just plain disrespectful that the homosexual couples have their rights to adopted hindered due to the prejudices of others.

[PatrickvD]

okay, so who here has done the 'coming out' by bringing home the boyfriend for dinner? I think I might just do it that way. I'm not much of a talker, but I do love pushing buttons.

Or is that a recipe for disaster?

I think it all depends upon your parents. If you think they would be okay with it, then I'd say go for it if you really like to do it that way. However, if you think they'd be less than enuthusiastic, then yeah it might be a recipe for disaster. I know I had a bit of a hard time with my mom for a little when I came out about being bi, and even then that was only on the phone when I was away on campus.

well it's not my mom I'm worried about. I remember she'd always say "I don't care if you bring home a guy instead of a girl" to which my brother would reply "ew, mom, that's disgusting!!!" and I'd be like "could someone pass me the peanut butter already?!?!"....

I think my dad might go into some sort of Desperate Housewife shock though, he's all about keeping up appearances. He'd probably start closing the curtains to make sure the neighbors won't see...

[pap64]

Anyway, I've read over and over many times that "there have been found no differences between children of gay couples and children of heterosexual couples," but most of the time, since homophobia and heterosexism are so widespread, the judge will overlook that bit of info. and give the child to the heterosexual parent regardless. If it's a gay father, then he has practically no chance at all. Mothers win most cases against fathers anyway, and, throwing in the gay thing, it's very doubtful a gay man would have any possibility of winning custody.

One argument I've also heard from the adoption agencies is that "children of homosexual couples will be faced with more problems of being teased by fellow students." I think this is a really piss poor excuse, as you've stated that many homosexual couples have shown they can raise a child just as well and many times better than heterosexual couples. I would also place the blame more into the fault of the other children's and the prejudices they sometimes receive from their parents. They need to understand that just because one child's parents are different from the "norm" that doesn't make their family any less than theirs. It's just plain disrespectful that the homosexual couples have their rights to adopted hindered due to the prejudices of others.

As the heterosexual son of an heterosexual couple I can tell you that children will find ANY excuse to mock, ridicule and even humiliate a fellow student. In my case, I was teased for the mere fact that I was a special needs kid. In other words, due to a disease that caused me to lose oxygen in my brain my speech, cognitive, emotional and physical skills were severely affected and thus needed special affection in school. My parents weren't divorced, they aren't gay, they were pretty normal and yet that didn't stop the other kids from mocking me.

Also, what happened when divorce rates were going up and more and more kids were of divorced parents? Kids used to tease each other and what many schools did was teach them that this is a serious moment in a child's life and that they were going to be upset if they kept making fun of them, eventually making the kids of divorced parents seem like a normal thing.

I believe the same could happen for kids of homosexual parents IF people begin to open up their minds. Schools would then HAVE to teach kids that they can now a mommy and daddy, a mommy and a different daddy or two mommies or two daddies.