60's & 70's Aspect Ratios (from Sword in the Stone)

[disneyfella]

This post has been updated with new information below.....

[The_Iceflash]

I found ebay listings for an original 101 Dalmatians press book and original Jungle Book press book:

http://cgi.ebay.com/101-DALMATIANS-ORIG ... .m20.l1116



http://cgi.ebay.com/JUNGLE-BOOK-PRESSBO ... .m20.l1116

[disneyfella]

This list has been updated below....

[Jules]

Three cheers for disneyfella for posting that invaluable information!

I screamed in satisfaction at The Aristocats, One Hundred and One Dalmatians and The Fox and the Hound!

[nomad2010]

Three cheers for disneyfella for posting that invaluable information!

I screamed in satisfaction at The Aristocats, One Hundred and One Dalmatians and The Fox and the Hound!

i'm confused though, does this mean that 101 and Fox were actually produced in widescreen but released in fullscreen, or that they were produced in fullscreen but were intended to be framed in widescreen?

[Escapay]

Three cheers for disneyfella for posting that invaluable information!

I screamed in satisfaction at The Aristocats, One Hundred and One Dalmatians and The Fox and the Hound!

i'm confused though, does this mean that 101 and Fox were actually produced in widescreen but released in fullscreen, or that they were produced in fullscreen but were intended to be framed in widescreen?

They were produced in fullscreen (1.33:1) but were intended to be framed in widescreen (1.75:1) for theatres. This is done by matting the top and bottom of the frame.



This shows The Fox and the Hound in matted form on a screen (from the special "The Illusion of Life") and in its unmatted form on the home video releases.

Here's a better example: The Great Mouse Detective in 1.66:1 matted versus the unmatted version:





But keep in mind that not even all the image that is drawn will actually get filmed:





And then there's the anomaly that is The Rescuers, where the widescreen version on DVD is 1.66:1, but fullscreen clips from it are 1.33:1 open matte...however, if you combine the two you get a 1.45:1 frame:



Most of Disney's Live-Action movies (mainly those done post-1955) were done in "shoot in 1.33:1, matte to 1.75:1" as well. In some cases, when they released the DVD open-matte there aren't too many framing issues to worry about, such as The Shaggy Dog (which presents both matted and open-matte, though the open-matte is colourised):





But in some cases, they'll screw up the image on the DVD by presenting a 1.33:1 Pan & Scan of the matted widescreen. Here's an example from That Darn Cat!, which is 1.33:1 in the States, but widescreen in R2:







(images courtesy of this thread)

Opening mattes may be fine for some films, but in some cases, there is unintended image that shouldn't be seen, as seen in Mary Poppins:



The entire frame is a 1.33:1 open matte that was featured in the "Brazzle Dazzle Effects" bonus feature on Pete's Dragon: High-Flying Edition.

The White Box represents the 1.66:1 image that they've used in both the 40th and 45th Anniversary Edition DVDs.

The Red lines represent the actual 1.75:1 image they should be using, and was actually shown in the featurette.

The Green lines represent the over-matted 1.85:1 image they used on the original barebones DVD and the Gold Collection DVD.

Hope that all helps!

albert

[disneyfella]

And then there's the anomaly that is The Rescuers, where the widescreen version on DVD is 1.66:1, but fullscreen clips from it are 1.33:1 open matte...however, if you combine the two you get a 1.45:1 frame:



albert

This might help end the discussion on "The Rescuers" mystery. I found an ebay listing for "The Rescuers" pressbook. Here is a picture of the inside cover:

http://cgi.ebay.com/DISNEY-THE-RESCUERS ... 286.c0.m14

take a look at the bottom left of the picture. It clearly states that the aspect ratio 1.75:1. I'll add that to the list above of verified aspect ratios....but unfortunately, it's just increasing the number of misframed films 0_o.

[Rudy Matt]

I think this thread puts to rest the idea that there was only one intended aspect ratio for the majority of these films, and they were produced with both theatrical and television aspect ratios in mind.

[The_Iceflash]

Here's an original Jungle book pressbook with pages scanned but it's hard to find the aspect ratio listed on it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Walt-Disney-present ... 500wt_1182

[nomad2010]

i personally think we should get both version of these films when they are released. i mean i get so sick of watching 101 dalmatians in fullscreen, that and fox and the hound and a few others. i think if they were intended to be matted then we should at least get them in the matted form alongside the fullscreen version. we live in an age of widescreen television and it's not going away. i understand that they were produced in fullscreen but like i said if they were meant to be matted then they should be.. the fullscreen option could be an added extra feature or something. although i think it is nice that they are allowing to see ALL of the art produced for the film.. it's a waster to have half of your screen in black bars. :/

[KubrickFan]

I think this thread puts to rest the idea that there was only one intended aspect ratio for the majority of these films, and they were produced with both theatrical and television aspect ratios in mind.

I don't think that's the case. It's more like 'intended in widescreen, but can be viewed either way' like any movie shot in 1.85:1 or Super35 for that matter. It's just a way of letting the 4:3 version not be too compromised.

[ajmrowland]

With Aspect Ratios having been doubled in the past, I don't see why they can't release both versions on a disc. Those who MUST have their widescreen tv filled up can, and those who want the full image can choose the fullscreen option, which used to be, and still is for some, the other way around.

[disneyfella]

With Aspect Ratios having been doubled in the past, I don't see why they can't release both versions on a disc. Those who MUST have their widescreen tv filled up can, and those who want the full image can choose the fullscreen option, which used to be, and still is for some, the other way around.

Just to clarify, you do know that "fullscreen" does not equate to "full image", right? More than half the time, Disney releases something called "Pan & Scan" which is thoroughly covered throughout this site.

[KubrickFan]

With Aspect Ratios having been doubled in the past, I don't see why they can't release both versions on a disc. Those who MUST have their widescreen tv filled up can, and those who want the full image can choose the fullscreen option, which used to be, and still is for some, the other way around.

Again, it's not about filling up my widescreen tv, it's about using the theatrical aspect ratio. That's what I want to see, unless the director has a really good reason to make me change my mind.

[disneyfella]

This post has been udpated...see below

[jpanimation]

Wow, lots of information in this thread. I guess the best thing Disney can do is offer both versions of movies that were produced in fullscreen, with future television showings in mind, but intended to be matted. Widescreen movies that were just pan & scanned should only be available in widescreen.

As far as I'm concerned, whatever was shown in theaters is what I want.

I remember this debate with the Justice League blu-rays. Season One was made in fullscreen but intended to be matted (the storyboards were even done in widescreen) but Warner only put the fullscreen version on blu-ray. The other seasons were all produced in widescreen.

[Escapay]

I've updated the previous catalog of aspect ratios with "Johnny Tremain" and thought I'd repost the list of VERIFIED aspect ratios. I just looked over the list again, and it seems like, of all the information I've been able to gather, only three have been released in the proper aspect ratio...who is running the catalog over there at Disney? Whoever it is, they need to be fired and replaced with someone cheaper who can do a better job. I'll gladly and humbly propose myself ::ninja::

I agree. Disneyfella would be excellent in the job.

As for Johnny Tremain, I think that the DVD should have presented it in the 1.66:1 or 1.75:1 for the theatrical version instead of the 1.33:1 (even if it is one of the versions). They can still retain the 1.33:1 if it were presented in its two-part "Disneyland" version: "The Boston Tea Party" and "The Shot Heard Around The World", since I don't think anything would have been cut out for the TV broadcast.

Of course, I'd prefer if Johnny Tremain got a two-disc Special Edition release but that won't ever happen, so what Disney did release is good enough for me (especially since it included "The Liberty Story" - without "Ben and Me" unfortunately - and the two intros for the TV version).

albert

[KubrickFan]

Wow, lots of information in this thread. I guess the best thing Disney can do is offer both versions of movies that were produced in fullscreen, with future television showings in mind, but intended to be matted. Widescreen movies that were just pan & scanned should only be available in widescreen.

As far as I'm concerned, whatever was shown in theaters is what I want.

Most movies shot in 1.85:1 are open matted. Only very few are done hard matted. I don't think every one of those movies should be in both aspect ratios. As you said, what was shown in theaters is good enough for me.

[disneyfella]

Check out this auction for the pressbook from the original release of "Darby O'Gill and the Little People". The DVD release states that the film was recommended for viewing in 1.75:1 but defended the fullscreen ratio as the format it was originally filmed in.

Well Duh!!!! All non-Cinemascope Disney films were originally filmed in fullscreen...most of the time in 35mm! That does NOT mean that that is how it was intended to be seen. Check out what this pressbook says:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Walt-Disney-Darby-O ... 286.c0.m14

If you enlarge the second picture you can clearly read:

"A Reminder...

For Best Projection Results in the Presentation of Walt Disney's "Darby O'Gill and the Little People" Use Aspect Ratio 1:75 to 1"

There is no comment about 1.33:1 even being an option for the presentation of the film!!! For the best results, everyone should matte their own DVDs to the theatrical presentation ratio, because apparently Buena Vista Home Entertainment is either too lazy, or too dumb. They refuse to give us the films in their theatrical formats.

I'm going to update the running list with this new info.

[disneyfella]

I thought I would end the night with some good news.

Despite the terrible misframing of "Darby O'Gill and the Little People", it appears that "One Hundred and One Dalmatians" was, in fact, supposed to be screened open matte all along!

That's right, the original theatrical aspect ratio for the premiere release of 101 dalmatians is 1.33:1. This means that the platinum edition DVD release of the film is in the original theatrical aspect ratio!!! YAY!!!

Despite the fact that this film received a matted widescreen release in the late 1970s, I personally feel that the original theatrical aspect ratio of 1.33:1 was intended and therefore animated with such in mind. I want the fullscreen image...because that is the way it was originally seen!!

I'm not all hardcore widescreen...I'm just hardcore "original aspect ratio". LOL!