Hand-Drawn Animation Dead at Disney

[JTurner]

http://www.rotoscopers.com/2015/05/27/2 ... at-annecy/

Have we ever covered this film in this thread? It looks pretty awesome.

[REINIER]

Interesting reads all around this topic...what dazzles me still is that former chief Eisner once had the ability to gain momentum with 2d animation ...mainly the path of the sequels he chose...or better yet cheapquels. ..here he had the possibility to produce quality animated follow ups to already established movie properties. Instead of honouring what came before and building upon its legacy he chose to instead make poor products all around
....my childhood and that of most of you here was never the same again. He made Quick bucks, no arguing there...but one has to wonder what could have been made had the overall sequel business been handled like it should have been. I think that the poor 2d sequels heralded its quick demise soon after

[REINIER]

Interesting reads all around this topic...what dazzles me still is that former chief Eisner once had the ability to gain momentum with 2d animation ...mainly the path of the sequels he chose...or better yet cheapquels. ..here he had the possibility to produce quality animated follow ups to already established movie properties. Instead of honouring what came before and building upon its legacy he chose to instead make poor products all around
....my childhood and that of most of you here was never the same again. He made Quick bucks, no arguing there...but one has to wonder what could have been made had the overall sequel business been handled like it should have been. I think that the poor 2d sequels heralded its quick demise soon after

[unprincess]

^I don't know how much influence the cheapquels had in the death of 2d. I mean, look at the sea of CGI garbage that comes out every year, not just theatrical films but tv shows with cheap CGI budgets, online games, straight to video "babysitters" like the Alpha & Omega sequels made on a shoestring. Why hasn't a decade of that kind of disposable CGI animation affected people's thirst for CGI? BTW I cant believe Blue Sky is pooping out another Ice Age film. Yeesh!

don't get me wrong, Im not defending the cheapquels, but I don't think they were a major catalyst for 2d's downfall.

Yeah, I agree. Although no indie film can ever fill the void left by Disney. I still really miss the naturalistic, fully-animated, Disney-style of animation that has pretty much become extinct.

oh gosh, yes, I really miss it as well. I guess an indie studio could do it someday, but most don't seem all that interested in that style, they want to do more experimental or avant garde stuff. A good thing about all this is that its has helped me broaden my taste for other styles. It helps that I got into an anime spell during the early/mid 2000's and that sort of helped ween me onto something that wasn't typical Disney style. I dont think I'll like every style that's out there. I don't think I could sit through Boy and the World with its stick figures and I have a lot of trouble warming up to stop motion(the only one Ive ever really liked enough to own the film is Corpse Bride.) But its better than just limiting oneself to Disney b/c the way things are going its gonna be a looong time before we see anything like the Lion King ever again.

Have we ever covered this film in this thread? It looks pretty awesome.

yes I think we did. Rereading the article I now realize its meant to be a short and not a full length film. Too bad, I would have a loved a whole film.

[Sotiris]

I mean, look at the sea of CGI garbage that comes out every year, not just theatrical films but TV shows with cheap CGI budgets, online games, straight to video "babysitters" like the Alpha & Omega sequels made on a shoestring. Why hasn't a decade of that kind of disposable CGI animation affected people's thirst for CGI?

Exactly. People overestimate the effect Disney DTV sequels had on the demise of 2D animation. It played a part, sure, but it wasn't the catalyst. Nowadays there are tons of CG garbage for the DTV and VOD market, much more than there ever were in 2D, but that hasn't affected the performance of theatrical CG movies in the slightest nor people's perception of the medium.

I guess an indie studio could do it someday, but most don't seem all that interested in that style, they want to do more experimental or avant garde stuff.

I suppose Klaus would be an indie movie with a Disney style if it gets completed. It's true that indie artists prefer utilizing unconventional, avant-garde styles and techniques, but that isn't solely driven by creative or aesthetic aspirations. It's done for practical reasons as well. The simpler the style and the designs, the easier and cheaper it is to animate. Even if an indie studio wanted to replicated the Disney house style, they wouldn't be able to afford it.

[Tangled]

^I don't know how much influence the cheapquels had in the death of 2d. I mean, look at the sea of CGI garbage that comes out every year, not just theatrical films but tv shows with cheap CGI budgets, online games, straight to video "babysitters" like the Alpha & Omega sequels made on a shoestring. Why hasn't a decade of that kind of disposable CGI animation affected people's thirst for CGI? BTW I cant believe Blue Sky is pooping out another Ice Age film. Yeesh!

Well, the cheapquels did not dispel the 90s-to-early 2000s notion that "all hand-drawn animation can be used for are Disney musicals or Disney musical-ripoffs", that's for sure. No, it wasn't only the sequels, but by studios producing lower-quality, generic hand-drawn work like many straight-to-DVD films, the medium was homogenized, and people may have grown to associate hand-drawn animation with bad, childish films while the fresh and relatable CGI films from Pixar and Dreamworks were the alternatives.

Meanwhile, now, the mainstream alternatives to bad CGI films are simply good CGI films. You can have extremely well-written and well-produced CGI films like Inside Out or Zootopia becoming major hits while somewhat lower targeting stuff like Minions also grosses huge amounts. At this point, it doesn't matter how many bad CGI films there are, because unless either: a) more people start following and supporting independent or international hand-drawn animation to the point where studios notice or: b) an American studio starts randomly pumping out hand-drawn animated films again, there are no mainstream animated alternatives to CGI films in North America (besides maybe stop-motion films from either Laika or Aardman, but those don't come out all that often).

Also, this is semi-related, but I miss the days when Ghibli films were marketed in America as mainstream releases. I recall The Secret World of Arrietty getting a huge marketing push from Disney and being very successful for an anime film in the American box office, and that was only in 2012. Now that GKids distributes Ghibli films there's not nearly as much effort put into marketing and theatre distribution, so it's harder to see a Ghibli film in theatres (or to introduce young children to Ghibli films, for that matter. I remember seeing Ponyo very heavily advertised on children's TV channels). Anyway, here's hoping that Sony treats The Red Turtle well.

[JTurner]

I guess an indie studio could do it someday, but most don't seem all that interested in that style, they want to do more experimental or avant garde stuff.

I suppose Klaus would be an indie movie with a Disney style if it gets completed.

There's a good chance Klaus will see completion. Check this out:

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/business/cin ... 35813.html

[JTurner]

http://www.animationinsider.com/2016/05/ron-yavnieli-2/

Creator of GORILLAVILLE on Dreamworks TV says this:

Now, this may sound a bit contradictory but one thing I’d change if I had the power to, is bring back traditional 2D animation in a permanent way to the studios. Bring it back to Disney, WB, everywhere. CG is great but it can totally coexist with traditional. There’s no reason for it to be gone. Everyone loves it and wants it back.

[ce1ticmoon]

There's a cool hand-drawn animated feature that needs your help. "Orient City: Ronin & the Princess", a samurai spaghetti western, is seeking funding on Kickstarter. You can watch the teaser, here.

It seems that the project was successfully funded!

I ended up pledging $20 for the Blu-ray reward.

[unprincess]

I seem to have missed this post, wow! again its amazing what a small group of dedicated people can do by themselves.

Even if an indie studio wanted to replicated the Disney house style, they wouldn't be able to afford it.

I know...maybe they could do it if they cut back on some of the costlier splurges that Disney could do back in the 90's, like the CGI shading on the characters, maybe avoid costly environments like the ocean, jungles, etc that require lots of effects. I also wouldnt mind something like Tale of Princess Kaguya or Ernest and Celestine's simple pencil animation with just watercolors backgrounds.

I recently saw Kaguya and, oh gosh I was in tears at the end... a shame this lost out to such a generic CGI film like BH6.

[Disney's Divinity]

I recently saw Kaguya and, oh gosh I was in tears at the end... a shame this lost out to such a generic CGI film like BH6.

A travesty, more like.

[ce1ticmoon]

After Frozen and Brave winning their respective years, BH6 winning was just the same old again. Didn't really think much of it at that point, since I don't really put stock in the Academy at all, especially after learning about their voting process. But I think it is noteworthy that quite a few indie and foreign films get nominated at all (even if it is for the sake of having a "token" foreign/indie film or two), since it brings a visibility to the films that they definitely wouldn't have otherwise.

[Disney's Divinity]

I wouldn't include Frozen in that category. Moreover, the divide in quality between BH6 and Kaguya/Song of the Sea is much steeper than Brave and its fellow nominees, imo. I'll still stick with, "Travesty."

I just hope shrugging wouldn't be the same response you'd give to the lack of black actors/directors/films being ignored at the Oscars.

[ce1ticmoon]

I just hope shrugging wouldn't be the same response you'd give to the lack of black actors/directors/films being ignored at the Oscars.

We were talking about the Best Animated Feature category specifically, weren't we? In all seriousness, I feel that this is a very uncalled for statement, because I know you must not really think it is appropriate to compare the bias against indie/foreign/hand-drawn animation (and my opinion on how the Academy handles this) to the social inequalities and injustices faced by blacks and other minority groups, including representation in the media.

I'm usually willing to overlook what seem to be snarky and snide remarks that arise from difference of opinion, but don't you think this one goes too far?

I apologize if that is meant to solely be a criticism of the Academy, but it sure doesn't feel that way.

[Sotiris]

I know you must not really think it is appropriate to compare the bias against indie/foreign/hand-drawn animation to the social inequalities and injustices faced by blacks and other minority groups, including representation in the media.

Racism, nationalism, and xenophobia do play a big part in the marginalization of foreign/indie films though.

[ce1ticmoon]

Racism, nationalism, and xenophobia do play a big part in the marginalization of foreign/indie films though.

Perhaps you are right; I will concede that point, and admit that I didn't think that far, though I still am not sure it is a 1:1 comparison. Talking about the animation category in particular, I don't think too many people here would disagree that even an indie film made by white people in the US wouldn't really have much of a chance at snagging the Oscar over Pixar or Disney in any given year, given that it even gets nominated in the first place.

Still, I feel like there was a totally uncalled for insinuation being made here that I don't really appreciate. But gain, I apologize if that wasn't the intent. It's hard to catch the true intent of people on the Internet sometimes. Emojis sometimes make it even harder to tell.

[Disney's Divinity]

We were talking about the Best Animated Feature category specifically, weren't we? In all seriousness, I feel that this is a very uncalled for statement, because I know you must not really think it is appropriate to compare the bias against indie/foreign/hand-drawn animation (and my opinion on how the Academy handles this) to the social inequalities and injustices faced by blacks and other minority groups, including representation in the media.

My only point is that giving a non-response to an issue (whether it's in regards to medium/company bias or something more serious like racist undercurrents) is basically an endorsement of the status quo. Yes, a hand-drawn masterpiece like TTotPK or SotS being overlooked is just more of the same BS and is completely expected, but I find the fact that anyone who complains about it being followed up with "*shrug* It's the same as always" kind of response meant to shutdown criticism is just as bad as the problem itself. Not that complaining on the Internet will change anything, but the complaints are completely valid.

[ce1ticmoon]

My only point is that giving a non-response to an issue (whether it's in regards to medium/company bias or something more serious like racist undercurrents) is basically an endorsement of the status quo. Yes, a hand-drawn masterpiece like TTotPK or SotS being overlooked is just more of the same BS and is completely expected, but I find the fact that anyone who complains about it being followed up with "*shrug* It's the same as always" kind of response meant to shutdown criticism is just as bad as the problem itself. Not that complaining on the Internet will change anything, but the complaints are completely valid.

I didn't intend to shut down your criticism or try to invalidate your opinion at all. And I'm sorry if it came off that way; I can now see how it could be interpreted that way, considering my comment followed right after yours. But that's still ultimately a projection on your part.

I have expressed my displeasure with the winners over the past few years here and elsewhere, and you probably wouldn't be too surprised to find that my actual opinions on which films deserve the distinction of "Best" probably align more with yours than whatever the Academy votes. (If it were up to me, BH6 probably wouldn't have even been nominated that year.) Maybe my point could have been expressed differently, but my main point was right there my writing and was very clearly about my experience only-- that I can't take the Academy's choices seriously, especially after learning about how they arrive at their choices. That's how I felt at that point--that it's more of the same--and in a sense, maybe you're right, it is perhaps kinda a bad thing that I've grown a bit numb to it. I do agree that these artists do deserve to be recognized their achievements. But I certainly wasn't defending the Academy or opposing anything you said.

If that was your only point, then I think the point itself is valid, but I also think there are less inflammatory ways to do that.

[kiseki]

Old news, but it's relevant to the topic since people are quick to debate 2D vs 3D when they discuss it, so I wanted to share.

Has anyone here ever heard of Miraculous Ladybug? It's French children's cartoon that takes place in Paris, about a superheroine and the love square between her alter egos and her partner's alter egos. The production has been called an "international collaboration" between French, Japanese, and Korean companies and it's currently being aired worldwide. (Except Japan at the moment.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlwV3scCgAM
Toei pitched this 2D PV (directed by Chioka Kimitoshi) back in 2012 to persuade the French creators to let them handle the animation, but they ultimately preferred the cartoon to be in 3D. It was later announced that they would be animating the web segments, but those were switched to CGI. Now there's a 2D OVA in production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xChtGwI8_-k
The end result of Ladybug is lighter and brighter, with generic designs and animation that's better than the usual TVCG productions. (And a dead, dead Paris.)

[ce1ticmoon]

The animation does look better than standard CGI for TV fare, but I agree that it is quite boring and generic-looking. Honestly, I think CG usually only works if the big studios throw a lot of money at it for feature films. I think it can look good on a lower budget if they can find out a more unique way of using the technology (Le Tableau/The Painting, for example), but examples like that are very few at present. Many TV productions and lower-budget films attempt to do the same things that Pixar, DreamWorks, etc. are doing in the feature films, but the budget just doesn't allow them to reach that level of fluidity and detail.

That 2D proof-of-concept looks pretty good, and may look better than what an actual TV production would have looked like due to getting a proportionally higher budget, but a project like this would almost inevitably just look better in 2D. While low-budget anime or anime on tight deadlines can look pretty rough (ONE PIECE, for example), it's definitely easier to make 2D animation look more dynamic and lively, even when there is less actual movement/animation, so long as there is some genuine talent involved (most TV productions directed by Masaaki Yuasa, for example).