The new Princesses being excluded from the lineup

[Redadoodles]

I don't think any of the people involved in Moana cares if she's in the franchise or not, it's all insignificant to them. But okay, I don't think this joke in Moana was any different than most of the things they did in Frozen or Brave with their whole anti "Disney princess antics" attitude (just more literal), or Tiana's no-nonsense attitude. As for "marketing" (because that's the whole Disney Princess thing is about), Moana's or the Revival princesses "not like any other princess" marketing is not really different than the 90's "active princess" (even though Ariel and even Belle lack any arc in their respective films).

The difference comes from the fact that Frozen didn't directly make fun of the princesses in a quote not even the whole "You can't marry a man you just met" because that line is used as a warning for Hans's betrayal so it's not really a spoof against the previous Disney princesses... Besides, Frozen is a franchise on its own.

God knows, I'm not a fan of Merida, but she never made fun of the princesses either, she just wanted to be free like Jasmine or Pocahontas. Merida wasn't even against love nor getting married eventually. She was only against an arranged marriage.
Now, the thing with Moana is that I'm sure they thought it would be as big as Frozen and would have a life of its own but that didn't happen so they quietly made her part of the line.

[Farerb]

Who is they? The people who make these decisions are not the same as the people who make the films.

What I'm saying is that ultimately putting someone in the franchise is merely a financial decision, not based on who said what on her film. Personally I'm not really invested in the who's in it and why, I think people give this franchise too much importance, honestly I kind of wish it never existed.

[Sotiris]

I don't think this joke in Moana was any different than most of the things they did in Frozen or Brave with their whole anti "Disney princess antics" attitude (just more literal), or Tiana's no-nonsense attitude.

Yes, it was. The "you can't marry a guy you just met" thing in Frozen was also a wink at the audience, but at least made sense in the context of the film. The Moana joke didn't. As it concerns Brave or The Princess and the Frog, the anti-princess culture may have influenced the way their personalities were written, but there was no direct reference to such viewpoint in their respective films.

As for "marketing" (because that's the whole Disney Princess thing is about), Moana's or the Revival princesses "not like any other princess" marketing is not really different than the 90's "active princess".

The difference in marketing approach is like night and day.

Even though Ariel and even Belle lack any arc in their respective films.

Breaking it down to its essentials, a character wanting something and getting by the end is an arc. The same thing applies to Moana. She wanted something and got it by the end. In what way does she have more of an arc than Ariel or Belle?

[Disney's Divinity]

TP&TF does mock the old-school princesses somewhat, but in a gentle way, through Charlotte. I don't see it as anti-princess though, especially since Tiana eventually tries it Charlotte's way of wishing which is what triggers the whole story. I don't really see Frozen as anti-princess either, so much as it subverts viewer expectations that the older female relative will be the villain and the prince the hero.

[Redadoodles]

Who is they? The people who make these decisions are not the same as the people who make the films.

What I'm saying is that ultimately putting someone in the franchise is merely a financial decision, not based on who said what on her film. Personally I'm not really invested in the who's in it and why, I think people give this franchise too much importance, honestly I kind of wish it never existed.

You do realize that the people who handle the merchandising are involved in the film, right? The producers have several meetings over what sells and what doesn't sell. There are hundreds of meetings involving costumes, side kicks and other things like that. I remember one of my friends who was the screenwriters on the Princess Sissi animated show telling me that they had ten different meetings where the writers and the marketing team were violently arguing on the hair color of the princess. The story team wanted to follow the real story and have the heroine keep her brown hair but the marketing team wanted her blonde as back then blonde dolls would sell better. At the end, the marketing team ended up winning the case. The same thing happened with Pocahontas when Mattel demanded that the story team would include a scene of Meeko braiding Pocahontas's hair so they would release a doll pack that would do the same thing.
All that to say that it would be very naive to think that marketing is not a huge part of an animated film's production.

[Sotiris]

^Nick Ranieri who was the supervising animator of Charlotte, also said there were a lot of meetings with the consumer products people. He was even asked to pitch some tie-in products for them. In any case, I think what happened with Moana was that Lasseter wanted that infamous joke in, he's known for his distaste for princesses, and even if the merch people objected to it, aware of the possibility her joining the DP line down the road, he would have overruled them. I think that's one of the reasons they tried launching a separate Moana franchise first. This time around, the film itself, not just its marketing campaign, very clearly and loudly distanced itself from the princess label. The other being the precedent set by Frozen. They foolishly believed any new female-led film could sustain its own franchise.

[Redadoodles]

^Nick Ranieri who was the supervising animator of Charlotte, also said there were a lot of meetings with the consumer products people. He was even asked to pitch some tie-in products for them. In any case, I think what happened with Moana was that Lasseter wanted that infamous joke in, he's known for his distaste for princesses, and even if the merch people objected to it, aware of the possibility her joining the DP line down the road, he would have overruled them. I think that's one of the reasons they tried launching a separate Moana franchise first. This time around, the film itself, not just its marketing campaign, very clearly and loudly distanced itself from the princess label. The other being the precedent set by Frozen. They foolishly believed any new female-led film could sustain its own franchise.

Sigh, that Lassetter... And yet he praises Aurora here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4BuUuuHLfg&t=20s

[Farerb]

From the commentary:

Musker: This line coming up, Jared Bush's line...

Clements: Oh yes.

Musker: We got more comments about this line than any other line in the movie. I think it was Jared's line. There was another line in there for the preview that had to do with dresses that didn't play all that well, so, this actually came very late after the preview. He rewrote it and...

Clements: Same idea.

Musker: Same idea, but funnier version of it, and one that lands better. And it really kills in the screening, as does this sequence generally, just with him being darted, and, of course, the slight bathroom humor that's coming up. We of course, shy away from bathroom humor whenever we can, but occasionally, we...

Clements: We actually had a little more bathroom humor and we took some of it out. We kept the best of the bathroom humor, but this was probably the best of all.

Musker: So, it's fun, basically, this made it easier for him to let her sail the boat, the fact that he was incapacitated. It was a way of using a plot device to help sell a character point. Cause it seemed like, in many cases, he just wouldn't let her do it, but he's really forced to do this, do, it helped. And, of course, this joke, one of the biggest laughs in the movie.

So you see it's just a dumb joke someone came up with which got a positive response from people (response = they were laughing). I don't think that Musker and Clements thought about it as more than a dumb joke. It's especially wasn't some made up Lasseter conspiracy (I'm sure he plotted every night about how he is going to show those dumb princesses with a dumb joke in a kids movie). The truth is that in his later years in Disney, Lasseter was much more involved with imagineering rather than with WDAS, which was back on its own two feet again, but sure.... It's really surprising that people outside this forum didn't seem to have an issue with that joke, but perhaps they are not "true Disney fans" for liking a Musker and Clements film (oh I forgot it's not truly a Musker and Clements film. Oops sorry).

Redadoodles, what you said on Pocahontas is interesting, so you want to tell me that executives were meddling with the Renaissance films? Because here I thought they were a true artistic visions and all those things only started when Lasseter decided to ruin WDAS (you know because before he came they made such successful films like Brother Bear, Home on the Range and Chicken Little and now we are stuck with those awful films such as Tangled, Frozen, Zootopia and Moana - all of which were box office bombs and have a rotten score on rotten tomatoes).

[Disney's Divinity]

I imagine some of Moana's anti-princess sentiment could have something to do with everyone blaming TP&TF's underperformance on them embracing the Disney Princess line too firmly. So in response, M&C went the opposite direction.

[Sotiris]

So you see it's just a dumb joke someone came up with which got a positive response from people (response = they were laughing). I don't think that Musker and Clements thought about it as more than a dumb joke. It's especially wasn't some made up Lasseter conspiracy (I'm sure he plotted every night about how he is going to show those dumb princesses with a dumb joke in a kids movie). The truth is that in his later years in Disney, Lasseter was much more involved with imagineering rather than with WDAS, which was back on its own two feet again, but sure.... It's really surprising that people outside this forum didn't seem to have an issue with that joke, but perhaps they are not "true Disney fans" for liking a Musker and Clements film (oh I forgot it's not truly a Musker and Clements film. Oops sorry).

Because here I thought they were a true artistic visions and all those things only started when Lasseter decided to ruin WDAS (you know because before he came they made such successful films like Brother Bear, Home on the Range and Chicken Little and now we are stuck with those awful films such as Tangled, Frozen, Zootopia and Moana - all of which were box office bombs and have a rotten score on rotten tomatoes).

Was this hostile and passive-aggressive response really necessary? I get you're feeling defensive about Moana, but such attitude shuts down any desire to continue the discussion. You claim you respect other people's opinions, but it seem you don't in actuality. You just want others to agree with you and adopt your perspective and if they don't, you accuse them of being wrong, unfair or biased.

[Redadoodles]

I imagine some of Moana's anti-princess sentiment could have something to do with everyone blaming TP&TF's underperformance on them embracing the Disney Princess line too firmly. So in response, M&C went the opposite direction.

I agree. Even though I'm not crazy about either but I would still choose Princess And The Frog because the storytelling and the villain are better in my opinion.

[Disney Duster]

I forgot to say, I was glad to see Cinderella make the top three of most shopDisney products for a Disney Princess. The order didn't surprise me except Jasmine above Rapunzel.

Didn't John Lasseter say he always wanted to make a princess movie, when they were doing Brave?

[Redadoodles]

Well, he seemed pretty excited about The Princess And The Frog when it came out. At least, in the interviews that I got to see.

Redadoodles, what you said on Pocahontas is interesting, so you want to tell me that executives were meddling with the Renaissance films? Because here I thought they were a true artistic visions and all those things only started when Lasseter decided to ruin WDAS (you know because before he came they made such successful films like Brother Bear, Home on the Range and Chicken Little and now we are stuck with those awful films such as Tangled, Frozen, Zootopia and Moana - all of which were box office bombs and have a rotten score on rotten tomatoes).

This answer is quite disappointing. I really hope that your sarcasm is not directed towards me as I love Rapunzel, Zootopia and I'm also fond of Frozen.

[bruno_wbt]

The order didn't surprise me except Jasmine above Rapunzel.

Jasmine has gained a lot o popularity since the live-action movie came out, it's always trending on Disney+

I've seen so many little girls dressed up like Jasmine since the movie came out, and I'm really glad because for some resason she was losing popularity before the live-action movie came out.

[Disney Duster]

Redadoodles, I forgot Lasseter had a hand in Princess and ths Frog. Unfortunately I wonder if he faked enthusiasm because some people think he sabotaged the film and I wonder if they're right.

That is very interesting bruno_wbt! I was never a big Jasmine fan so I kind of understood her losing popularity before, but it's fantastic she has more popularity now.

[Redadoodles]

Well, it was his idea to make The Princess And The Frog apparently... That's why he hired Ron Clements and John Musker back.

[blackcauldron85]

^ Disney & Pixar both were working on a Frog Prince(ss) film, so Lassiter (maybe among other people?) figured to just make the one film.

[Redadoodles]

Wether or not some ladies are excluded from the Disney Princess line, all of them have something in common
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jH_UeiaRI

[Disney Duster]

I don't remember seeing Cinderella or Ariel scream. Did I miss it in your video?

[Redadoodles]

Ariel is in the video, right after Jenny but Cinderella doesn't scream in any of her films so that's why I started the video with her asking everyone to calm down.