Are You Gay 2? It's a New, More Fabulous Thread!

[Sotiris]

I wonder... if the bible said people had to jump off a mountain when they reached 25 years old, would they do it?

I just wanna put this out there: the Bible is a religious text and as a text it is subject to interpretation. There is nothing inherently anti-homosexual to religious texts. It is religion and Church as an institution that prescribes certain meanings. There a lot of sites out there that analyze the Bible (and especially the infamous Sodom and Gomorrah section) and illustrate that there are actually no anti-homosexual references after all.

Religions as institutions from the dawn of human existence have been manipulated and used as a basis for legitimation by the dominant social order. From the Holy Wars to racism and sexism - and now homosexuality -, religion is used to impose the patriarchal social system. I believe that homosexuality and religion as Faith can and do in fact co-exist.

[Disney Duster]

Campbellz, seriously...I am seriously asking because I am wondering...do you actually like getting hurt in games? Like...do guys like that, actually? I'm serious I'm not trying to make fun. I could see how maybe you could like something about that.

Oh yay I liked that sotiris! Liked what I heard about un-anti-gay readings of the very text. Wasn't one of the kings possibly homo with some guy at one time? I also agree with a lot of what you said.

But I also believe there are places it is specific that you can't have same-saxual relations. The whole "don't lay with a man as you would with a women" declaration, and I think one of the letters written by some saint tells people not to be homo.

Once again, I think letting people know how the Bible has changed over time,what possibly could've been added to it after the original authors wrote it, and the reasons why they thought it was a sin, would be a real good thing.

The church also doesn't follow everything the Bible says that are "smaller" rules like that. Like those rules about not being with a women during or right after a certain time and stuff like that.

UH-OH...you know, having same-sex relations and having same-sex marriage are two different things. Well...then...it may come down to people feeling in their own hearts if they think God would actually not want same sex love joined in matrimony, or...we just gotta wait till enough people vote on their own!

And the world really is getting more and more accepting of gays and gay marriage, 'tis true.

[Sotiris]

And the world really is getting more and more accepting of gays and gay marriage, 'tis true.

But with a very slow pace sadly...

I believe that the very religious argument that some people use to support their anti-gay sentiments is rather illogical. How can the Christian god who is illustrated as a god of mercy, equality and love, - elements that are basically at the core of the Christian faith - , 'condemn' people based on their sexual orientation which has be proven scientifically that it is not a choice? It makes no sense...

[Isidour]

And the world really is getting more and more accepting of gays and gay marriage, 'tis true.

But with a very slow pace sadly...

I believe that the very religious argument that some people use to support their anti-gay sentiments is rather illogical. How can the Christian god who is illustrated as a god of mercy, equality and love, - elements that are basically at the core of the Christian faith - , 'condemn' people based on their sexual orientation which has be proven scientifically that it is not a choice? It makes no sense...

Because, sadly, their "god" it's not only but their greatest cover and reason to impose their way of thinking.

[CampbellzSoup]

Campbellz, seriously...I am seriously asking because I am wondering...do you actually like getting hurt in games? Like...do guys like that, actually? I'm serious I'm not trying to make fun. I could see how maybe you could like something about that

I'll honestly answer this from my point of view Mike. Also please you acn call me Michael or Mike as I feel we're all a family on this board. I just like the competitive nature of the sport I like the sense and excitment of tyring to win...and trying to come out on top. I don't really think hurting/getting hurt comes into play in my mind...

[Goliath]

I wonder... if the bible said people had to jump off a mountain when they reached 25 years old, would they do it?

Absolutely. And I wish it *did* say it, because it would really help us get rid of the nuts.

Anyway, funny thing is that conservatives always point to the Bible when defending 'traditional marriage'. The Bible doesn't promote that. It speaks of polygamy, marriage for money, buying off rape, sleeping with your servant if your wife can't conceive etc.

[Disney Duster]

Cool, okay...

sotiris, that slowness in acceptance is also true, and I was going to post that, but actually I really think it's getting faster, or will. From what I've observed, and what I feel. Anyway, I didn't want to say this but...God is a mystery, life is a mystery, and people probably think they should just trust in what the Bible, God's word, says, and what they feel God is saying. There are things straight people want to do but they don't do them because they trust God has reasons why they shouldn't do them.

Even atheist scientists could say gay people should be fixed because their genes are not how they should be. And for a while homosexuality was considered a mental illness.

But me, I believe, I feel God wants be to be happy here on Earth, and I really don't think I could be happy without lying next to a man I love, or changing myself to be straight (I wouldn't feel I was me! When in the Bible did it ever say you can change a person like that...?). I also hope I get to be with the man I love in heaven.

Isidour, you know some anti-gay Christians really do believe in God, right? But anyway, yes, it's pretty obvious a lot of people use God and the Bible as a cover to keep what they personally like or don't like.

Mike, my name's Mike too, and I think there are other Mikes on here...so I like to use the more different member names, but you'll know I mean you for now. I thought you might like getting hurt because, straight guys like it rough, and tough, to have battle scars, see how they can take the pain, prove themselves, their strength, or something. That's what I thought, that's what I'm inquiring. Most gay guys I know don't want anything messed up, dirty, or just plain hurt, and only get rough during...you know. It is so hard for me to imagine a man who loves men so much wailing on him so he could possibly die, in those matches in that sport. But maybe your friend does not fight like that. Maybe your friend does not fight like this. I like competition and even mild wrestling or getting something from someone or knocking someone off a balance beam, but I can't understand running full speed into people with lots of weight on you and punching people and squeezing their neck and...I dunno, I just don't get it. I've always been mystified by the world of straight guys. Yea, I know you're gay friend likes to fight, whatever, but all my life it's been these straight guys that have this...almost desire for pain... Maybe I have to face that I never will get it.

Goliath, those are good points. When Jesus came, he actually got rid of all sorts of rules like that. That's one reason I like Jesus. It does seem almost as if the Bible was either revised, or Jesus said, "Look, um, you got it wrong before, this is all you have to do." But anyway, we should get that information out to, since that speficically regards marriage.

I don't know how...but I guess if we told everyone we knew about it, or went to protests, or we went to gay clubs where they would talk about what to do to get votes, we could suggest these things to them.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

I thought you might like getting hurt because, straight guys like it rough, and tough, to have battle scars, see how they can take the pain, prove themselves, their strength, or something. That's what I thought, that's what I'm inquiring. Most gay guys I know don't want anything messed up, dirty, or just plain hurt, and only get rough during...you know. It is so hard for me to imagine a man who loves men so much wailing on him so he could possibly die, in those matches in that sport.

Just because gay guys love men that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to participate in competitive sports, or ones that are more violent. It's not like he's beating up his boyfriend or anything, it's his opponent, who won't hesitate for a second to wail on him, sort of a dog eat dog sport. If you hesitate because your worried your going to hurt him or don't want to hurt the opponent too much because you love men then that sport just isn't cut out for you.

I don't think straight guys have this love/desire for pain, I mean it's pain. Pain sucks, why go looking for it purposely?

Personally (as I mentioned before) I participate in sports because of the competition, because it makes me push myself harder to win and by pushing myself I'm able to improve myself. Unlike the friends you mentioned, I see nothing wrong with getting just as messy, dirty and rough as the rest of them when playing a sport, and I have. Random story, but once we had to play soccer in the rain (the gym was getting the floor fixed) and by the time we were finished most of us were caked in mud and soaked to the bone from the rain. Yet we had a blast, sometimes getting messy and dirty isn't always a bad thing.

As for your friends, don't take that as a general thing for all gay guys. Not all of us want to avoid things that are messy or dirty or just because there's a chance of getting hurt. As shown by my story above (well at least for my case and possibly other guys as well)

[Disney's Divinity]

Personally, and I'm not trying to alienate anyone by going off into the Christian debate (just ignore me), but I think it's extremely hard to pinpoint exactly how the Bible feels about homosexuality. For one, the Bible never gives an example similar to what you would, or might, see today (such as a monogamous gay couple in love). For the most part, the only examples the Bible gives of homosexuality (or, rather, man on man) refer to male prostitutes, men in lust (who are really heterosexual, but just don't care who they're having sex with as long as they're getting off), pedophiles/pederasty (I don't consider this homosexuality, but the quotes could ofter be referring to this) or male rapists (who rape for dominance, a la the whole Lot scene in Sodom and Gomorrah.

As for the quote, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable," I can understand why so many people take this as a reason to be anti-gay, but I've always though (and I know the opinions of a gay person automatically negate their relevance to most anti-gay Christians) it meant that a man should not lie with a man if he's really straight. I mean, a gay guy would not lie with a woman, so there's not really a comparison there for them. Of course, I'm just playing with words, but that's what I've always thought. And many people believe that, again, this quote was referring to the practice of male prostitution in temples. Translation is a tricky business--one of the major reasons I don't consider the Bible to be the be-all, end-all. And what about lesbians?

Maybe, in some cases, I'm trying to find ways to defend myself, as a Christian, against other, anti-gay Christians. But it really just doesn't make any sense to me why homosexuality would be considered "wrong." Some say, "because it goes against the natural order of things." Well, what about sterile people, the retarded or the elderly? Should they not have sex because they can't procreate? And what about the fact that animals in the natural world, (supposedly) created by God, exhibit homosexual behavior all the time? No, I'm not saying human beings should act like animals, but they're living proof that being gay is natural.

Regardless, I don't none of this has to do with gay marriage at all. That's a legal issue, not a Biblical one. I thought the Church and State were separated years ago? I guess the temptation to restrict someone of their right to live as they wish is just too hard to resist. But, even if the State never recognized me as married to someone I loved, I don't think that would negate my feelings. The value of a marriage is created by the couple and their dedication to one another, not by a legal document.

[Disney Duster]

I wrote a lot again. Humour me and don't forget to reply to what I said before this, ...if you had wanted to.

Chernabog, after reading that, all I can say is it is good for me to learn what other guys, straight and gay, do, and how they feel about it. So, thank you. I didn't peg you for the tough, dirty, competitive type of person at all...

Oh, was you're soccer team all gay guys? The way you wrote it you sounded like you were saying all those guys were proof gay guys like this thing most straight guys do.

And by the way, no matter what, just like most girls like certain things, most guys like certain things, and most gay guys like certain things, and most gay girls like certain things...there are exceptions, but most gay guys, and things that are considered "gay", will be how I have always felt they are. That's just how...most of them are.

Divinity, well first, thanks for all that, but one thing is I cannot see that one part as "a gay man should not lie with a straight man as he would a woman." I'm sure I need what you meant clarified... What about that letter... Oh, so I totally just looked up some sight that said some words translated as homosexual could have been translated wrong or referring to prostitution.

I just wish...I knew for sure...from really, really objective people and historians and maybe even holy men...that these words were talking about something else, not monogamous same-sex love. And I would also ask them about that King I swear had a gay relationship and God didn't say anything to him about it...

"And what about lesbians?" Well, couldn't it be one of those times when the man's example is used for all? I always, always understood it as an example women would just follow in their female counterpart, because they liked to use the men's examples specifically and only referred to women when it only could apply to them. But I'd be willing to change what I once thought, if I could only know for sure.

Scientists, and possibly some religious people after I site I found that looked into how people "become gay", they could all probably say animal's genes got messed up, too. Though gayness has been around since the beginning of time, at least since Ancient Greece. What, our genes suddenly changed then...? By the way they're not even sure gay has anything to do with genes, scientists have many theories but have not proven anything. I believe me being gay was meant to be, in my soul, however it was done, I just leave it in the mystery of who I am.

As for seperation of Church and State...I am finally going to say this.

Some people probably feel God would think it a sin if they voted for gay marriage to be legal, ruining it's sanctity. They may look at is as bad as making it legal to murder, except possibly worse because I actually can see what they mean when they feel it ruins the sanctity of marriage, it changes it.

I have to admit, if that's what I believed, I would feel it was quite wrong, quite terrible to vote for gay marriage.

Which is why I feel we should spread the word on what the Bible really says (or SAID, before it was altered or translated) about homosexuality (which may indeed be nothing at all!)

And yes Divinity, you're married if you say and feel and believe you are. You could get married in front of God and people without the legal stuff or the minister, and maybe without certain words and blessings, but you get it what I mean.

[xxhplinkxx]

I like boys.

[Simba3]

I like boys.

Ditto.

[Isidour]

I like boys.

Ditto.

That's why this is a Gay thread

[Disney Duster]

Wait, Divinity, you're onto something! Oooh, you said something very smart! Okay, I forgot that if gays could get married it would only be in court, and the very few churches who would allow it (yes there are some). So, if we remind people, specifically Christians, that this will only allow same-sex couples to marry legally, not divinely, not sanctiously (don't know if that's a word), then maybe we will get more votes!

That is the key! Point out gays will be marrying legally, not by God, not by...divinity. Hee. We could even say the sanctity of marriage already got ruined by making Godless unholy legal marriages in the first place.

But that brings up a point...what if those people think legal marriage in and of itself is bad? This goes back to what I said about how people may feel it's a sin to vote for something they don't think God approves of, or would allow. But what if we said to them, "well, it's not real marriage. Legal marriage, and legal gay marriage, isn't real marriage. Only religious marriage is real in God's eyes" to those people, at least. Or something.

What does everyone here think? What should we say to help get votes? It's about the power of word...and the amount of people saying those words.

[Flanger-Hanger]

I like boys.

Pedo.

I on the other hand like men.

[xxhplinkxx]

I was wondering how long it was gonna take someone to make that joke.

[ajmrowland]

I like boys.

Pedo.

I on the other hand like men.

And to the thing of Gay marriage being in legal courts. That would make it still be allowed.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

Chernabog, after reading that, all I can say is it is good for me to learn what other guys, straight and gay, do, and how they feel about it. So, thank you. I didn't peg you for the tough, dirty, competitive type of person at all...

Oh, was you're soccer team all gay guys? The way you wrote it you sounded like you were saying all those guys were proof gay guys like this thing most straight guys do.

Nope, this was in high schoolish time, they didn't know I was gay and maybe one or two of them could have been too for all I know (my gaydar is in need of repairs). I just meant that I can get just as dirty, rough and sweaty as the straight guys can, and that just because I'm gay doesn't mean I'd avoid things like that.

Hm, maybe posting at 2am is a bad idea, brain think not good........hopefully my reply made sense except for this last little paragraph

[zackisthewalrus]

*delete*

[SpringHeelJack]

Hi Zack.

In case no one tells it to you enough, it gets better.