What's your religion?

[Siren]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding it, but I find a lot of hypocrisy in the whole "God is good".

God is no different than Zeus. And Zeus was certainly not all too good.

Both impregnated mortal women and then left them to fend for themselves and deal with life's little problems....like being stoned, beaten, forced to raise a demi-god, only to watch that demi-god have to go through hell, just so he can join his dear old dad.

The story of God and Jesus isn't all that far flung from Zeus and Hercules. Bare bones, its a very similar story. Both sons were gifted with godly powers, but were still very much, mortals. And had to suffer cruel twists of fate.

Zeus sits on high and acts like we are his little pawns. Moving titans and various monsters and destructive forces to watch us flee, panic, and die. And if he's not doing it, if instead its his brothers or sisters causing the problems, he rarely comes in to save the day. He is all powerful Zeus who sits on high in his cloud and does as he pleases. He let his wife go on the attack against Hercules, let her drive him to madness and kill his family.

The crucifixion of Christ, the flood, hurricane Katrina, the Haiti earthquake....all things God had control over. He either did it himself or let it happen anyways. And then the survivor stories of how God was watching over them....Really? Cause he wasn't watching over them when the building crushed their legs and buried them for 4 days.


Fact is....God is NOT all good. People need to face that fact. That God is either the one doing these terrible things or he simply lets it happen. We are pawns. Maybe its all Satan's doing, but this is GOD we are talking about. All powerful, why does he even allow Satan to exist in the first place? Why allow evil if he is all good? Its like Superman saying, "I'm gonna bust these jewel thieves, but I'll let the murderers and rapists walk freely". Why is a God who is all good, allow such evil in the first place?

Not to mention, why need a Hell anyways, if God forgives? Frankly, its the flip flopping that bothers me. If God is all good and all great, he never would have had a bad angel, he never would have allowed that angel to control others, he never would have given the angel a whole freaking world to torture God's children in for eternity, because God shouldn't need an eternal time out chair when he forgives.

And this is part of the reason I chose Wicca. Because least Pagans admit, their deities aren't all peaches and cupcakes. Some got anger issues and they are willing to smite when they are PMSing. Least with my beliefs, I know where I stand.

[Super Aurora]

Goliath, as Divinity also revealed, God will perhaps obliterate the devil and his followers in the end of time (or whatever), but God lets the devil do what he wants to people to see who they will follow, God or the devil. And if you don't want to follow God, then you follow the devil, to where he ends up. Well, that's one belief.

In addition to what Siren said, I want to point out the bold here. Christian 's God stated that God is not only Omnipotent but omniscient as well. Meaning he knows everything in the future to come since the day he started creating the universe. Right? That's not bad except it contradict what Disney Duster pointed out.

If God let's the devil out as a "test" to see to see which people follows HIM or the devil, then God isn't omniscient since the point of this is to see who follows him. If god is omniscient then there's no need for that "test", as God already knows what the fuck will happen to you.


Oh siren the Zeus-Hercules comparison isn't the only one. The Egyptians also had a similar story with Ra(or was it Osiris?...).

[Disney's Divinity]

True. But God would be even more unjust for punishing you for something he knows you will do before you've even done it.

[Goliath]

Whenever Disney Duster is answering a critical post about religion, he isn't really answering it. He never goes into the points that are being brought up. Instead, he gives a standardized lecture about God. It's like he's not using his own words, but reciting someone else. His answers remain clichés, with which one can't really argue. He's copying somebody else's words.

Siren's post was a beautiful one. Yes, there are many similarities between the story of Christ and that of Hercules. But what about the ancient Greek myth of Deucalion? Zeus visited the Earth to see how humans behaved. He got very disappointed in them, so he decided to wipe them out with a flood. Except, he saved the one man who was good, Deucalion, and his wife. They survived the flood and got a son, named Hellas, who, so goes the myth, is the father of all Greeks. Now where have I heard that story before? (Oh yes, in the Sumerian epos of Gilgamesh!)

The crucifixion of Christ, the flood, hurricane Katrina, the Haiti earthquake....all things God had control over. He either did it himself or let it happen anyways. [...]

Fact is....God is NOT all good. People need to face that fact. That God is either the one doing these terrible things or he simply lets it happen. We are pawns. [...]

Not to mention, why need a Hell anyways, if God forgives? Frankly, its the flip flopping that bothers me.

Any chance you've seen this bit by George Carlin about religion? I miss George.

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[Siren]

I'll watch the Carlin thing soon. Got some background stuff going on with my PC right now. But I think I saw that before.


And IMO....ALL religion is based off the very first religion. And we really don't know just what the first religion was. Because by the time we reached a point with civilization where thinks were etched into stone, there was likely many religions before all that.

For instance....Everyone wants to say homo sapiens were superior to Neanderthals....and yet when the two species were living side by side...the only species to show a need to understand death and dying and how the dead should be treated, was the Neanderthals. They buried their dead with flowers, food, clothing, weapons. We don't know exactly why they did, but one can compare their treatment of the dead to other cultures from the ancient Egyptians to modern day and see similarities. Most likely, they did these things because they believed in some sort of afterlife. Why bury perfectly good weapons and clothing and food with the dead? Maybe because they felt they needed those in what life they were leading after death. Homo sapiens at that same time period did none of this. Its believed that homo sapiens observed this and eventually, adopted the practice, but that was 100s of years in the making there. So one could say the Neanderthals had the building blocks of religious and spiritual belief. So if religion started THAT early, who's to say how many religions sprung up after that?

And in ALL religions you see the same principles played out over and over again.
Deity creates universe. Deity creates the planet, the plants and animals. They create their own family and followers. And they create humans. And many religions speak of the deity having children with mortals.

Why? Because just as all humans sprang from ONE place, all religion sprang from ONE place. As we spread out, we took those beliefs with us, but as we spread out, those beliefs changed, to fit the needs and environment of each culture. Each new culture had its own religions. Native Americans for example, each tribe had their own belief system. Their own creation stories. They were all very similar and the basic make-up was the same, but details changed as each tribe sprouted up.

Fact is, no religion is original. IMO, no religion is the ONE TRUE religion. Because they are all interconnected to the first religion that died off, but remnants of it remain in every cultural belief system.

[PeterPanfan]

I was baptized as a Roman Catholic, but don't necessarily agree with everything they believe in.

For instance, I am not overtly religious and detest people that are. How you can devote every single second of your life to just one thing baffles me, especially with all the suffering and hurt going around in the world. I guess I can respect everyone's personal beliefs, but this is the one thing that I just cannot compute.

I kind of take little things from each religious division and kind of created my own beliefs. Some days I believe in Heaven and Hell, and others I believe in reincarnation. I appreciate and respect every 'religion', and I use that term loosely, for example, atheists and wiccans. I like how wiccans look to the natural world as a God; I actually find it kind of beautiful. I have looked up information regarding Wicca, and while a lot of it is very alluring and to my interests, I don't think I have all it takes to devote myself to it, and something they believe in kind of agitated me.

Atheists, while I do not understand, I appreciate. I think it's scary to not believe in any kind of higher being or afterlife. I mean, when I die, I want to know that I will live on in some way, shape, or form.

/two cents.

[Siren]

On Wicca and the time it takes to devote to it....yeah, its surprising to many. Which is why I laughed at the people who got upset about the idea of Harry Potter turning kids to witchcraft. I bet if any of those kids read what true witchcraft was, they would have went back to their fairy tales. There is little to no instant gratification with spells, other than the sense of accomplishment/relaxation/etc. A lot of time spent gathering necessary ingredients, which can be difficult to find not to mention, expensive. Lots of meditation. Frankly, out of all the witches and wizards in Hogwarts, sadly, Trelawney was the closest Rowling came to to an actual witch. And only because she spent so much time going over meditation, chanting, deciphering tea leaves/crystal balls/etc. Where as the rest of the wizards and witches, it was instant gratification, which is not really that common. So it did amuse me when people were afraid Harry Potter would attract kids to witchcraft. I'm sure it did. I'm sure a lot of kids read about Wicca after they read the books/saw the movie, but I can tell you, I haven't seen a spike in Wiccan circles of pre-pubescent kids. Like I said, Wicca probably ended up boring the hell out of them.

[Disney Duster]

I think I've already said things that would cover what a lot of you are saying here, and Divinity also explained some, but I do still want to say these things:

Goliath, all I can say is everything I write I think of. You use words that I have heard before like "it's not my cup of tea" in your debating and criticizing which I think is a cliche. But I only ever say what I think, and what comes from me, I am not doing what you said I was.

Siren, Harry Potter has a fictionalized fantasy version of witchcraft, something new (or old, coming from fairy tales), magic that has nothing to do with religion. It's a different, made-up magic.

[Siren]

Siren, Harry Potter has a fictionalized fantasy version of witchcraft, someting new (or old, coming from fairy tales), magic that has nothing to do with religion. It's a different, made-up magic.

As a practitioner of real witchcraft, I am pretty sure I grasp that concept. My point is how OTHER people TELL me how they don't let their kids watch Harry Potter because they are afraid it will turn them on to real witchcraft. THEY are the ones who aren't separating fact from fiction, not me.

[Super Aurora]

Siren, Harry Potter has a fictionalized fantasy version of witchcraft, someting new (or old, coming from fairy tales), magic that has nothing to do with religion. It's a different, made-up magic.

Boy, are you wrong about that.

[Siren]

Siren, Harry Potter has a fictionalized fantasy version of witchcraft, someting new (or old, coming from fairy tales), magic that has nothing to do with religion. It's a different, made-up magic.

Boy, are you wrong about that.

Not being sarcastic or smartass here, but please explain your thinking on that? Just generally curious

[ajmrowland]

it's at least a different concept of witchcraft than what History has. I mean, whole communities and worlds that use it as something normal. Like how we use technology, or do our chores.

[Super Aurora]

Boy, are you wrong about that.

Not being sarcastic or smartass here, but please explain your thinking on that? Just generally curious

Magic has always been associated with many religion. The idea Jesus turned water into wine, healing the blind, took few loaves of bread and fishes to feed thousands of people. It's all supernatural which is essentially what magic is. Supernatural powers. Like religion, magic also evolved in concept from simple magic like what is said about Jesus to more elaborate like the stuff in Harry Potter, Lord of the Ring and so forth.

[Siren]

Not being sarcastic or smartass here, but please explain your thinking on that? Just generally curious

Magic has always been associated with many religion. The idea Jesus turned water into wine, healing the blind, took few loaves of bread and fishes to feed thousands of people. It's all supernatural which is essentially what magic is. Supernatural powers. Like religion, magic also evolved in concept from simple magic like what is said about Jesus to more elaborate like the stuff in Harry Potter, Lord of the Ring and so forth.

I get the meaning, however, in the world of Harry Potter, there is not a being that grants such powers. Jesus was born of a mortal woman, but God still gave him his powers. Just as he granted Moses powers as well. Jesus and Moses were vessels of God's powers. You need a deity, some sort of form. Be it a man, a woman, or a thing, to worship. In Harry Potter, people are simply born pure-bloods, muggles, squibs, and half-bloods. Kinda like being born black or Asian or gay or male or female. Its simply who you are. You are either born with the gift or magic or your aren't. Its genetics, not religion. But no one in Harry Potter worships a deity. They simply are able to perform magical acts because of how they were born. JK Rowling never really went into religion. Sure his parents come back as spirits, its obviously there is something spiritual about Harry Potter, but spiritual and religious can be two different things.

[Disney Duster]

Yea, and don't forget that the Bible clearly states what Jesus does as miracles from God and that magic or magick is something entirely different (and coming from demons or spirits or other, false, not real gods).

In any case, what Siren said. Fairy Tales were made by religious people who did not want to have have their fairy tale characters like Cenerentola getting mixed up with magic from other religions/gods that were forbidden in the Bible. They invented a non-religious magic, with fairies and things that didn't exist. And to this day even some fictional witches have a fictional, non-religious magic they are born with, like in Sabrina the Teenage Witch and Harry Potter.

Disney films have this kind of magic, even for Ursula the Sea Witch who has a cauldron does not worship some religion to get her magic. However, Walt Disney did make a connection between religion and magic in his films that the fairy tales may or may not have originally had and it is only there if you choose to see it/think it. The Blue Fairy is almost like an angel-looking God-like figure coming from the sky when Gepetto practically prays, bringing a puppet to human life. The Fairy Godmother calls her magic miracles, which could be a very loose term (some people call things miracles but not in a religious sense) or she could mean it religiously (there is also lots about Cinderella having faith). And in Sleeping Beauty, Maleficent is probably an evil fairy as the original tale said, with a made-up magic, but she also aligns herself with the powers of hell, while the Good Fairies cause rays of light from the sky and bring Aurora back from death...

But religious magic doesn't have sparkly dust and puffs of smoke, it's made-up magic that may or may not be a metaphor for religion in Disney films, or even the original fairy tales.

Don't ignore differences and made-up inventions the people who made their tales intended.

[Siren]

Yea, and don't forget that the Bible clearly states what Jesus does as miracles from God and that magic or magick is something entirely different (and coming from demons or spirits or other, false, not real gods).

In any case, what Siren said. Fairy Tales were made by religious people who did not want to have have their fairy tale characters like Cenerentola getting mixed up with magic from other religions/gods that were forbidden in the Bible. They invented a non-religious magic, with fairies and things that didn't exist. And to this day even some fictional witches have a fictional, non-religious magic they are born with, like in Sabrina the Teenage Witch and Harry Potter.

Actually, a lot of fairy tales were written to prepare kids for the trials and tribulations faced before them. That is why a majority of fairytales, the main character is motherless. Since many mothers died in childbirth. Also, people BELIEVED fairies and other creatures in the fairytales were real. Things like fairy rings, toadstools, etc. Many fairytales were seen as FACT in some areas and times. Many fairytales predate Judaism and Christianity. Written to prepare kids, teach them lessons and such. Really no different then many of the lessons the Bible teaches such as the stories of Daniel and the lions, which reads more like an Aesop's fable than a Bible story.

I've spent many years researching the history of fairytales, the last thing religious people wanted was for people to continue to believe in fairies and other Pagan ideas.

[Super Aurora]

I get the meaning, however, in the world of Harry Potter, there is not a being that grants such powers. Jesus was born of a mortal woman, but God still gave him his powers. Just as he granted Moses powers as well. Jesus and Moses were vessels of God's powers. You need a deity, some sort of form. Be it a man, a woman, or a thing, to worship. In Harry Potter, people are simply born pure-bloods, muggles, squibs, and half-bloods. Kinda like being born black or Asian or gay or male or female. Its simply who you are. You are either born with the gift or magic or your aren't. Its genetics, not religion. But no one in Harry Potter worships a deity. They simply are able to perform magical acts because of how they were born. JK Rowling never really went into religion. Sure his parents come back as spirits, its obviously there is something spiritual about Harry Potter, but spiritual and religious can be two different things.

I'm not pointing out Harry Potter is based on religion. I'm saying the magic in Harry Potter it is influence of, had been associated with religion.
Religion doesn't mean Christianity. There are others out there you know like the celts or Nordic's.

Yea, and don't forget that the Bible clearly states what Jesus does as miracles from God and that magic or magick is something entirely different (and coming from demons or spirits or other, false, not real gods).

Just because the Bibles says it doesn't mean squat. Miracles is, in sense, magic by true definition. You're performing supernatural. They gave the term magic with what "demons" and others do to differ the supernatural the "bad" and the ones from "good". But all in all it's the same thing.
You're performing supernatural powers and abilities.

In any case, what Siren said. Fairy Tales were made by religious people who did not want to have have their fairy tale characters like Cenerentola getting mixed up with magic from other religions/gods that were forbidden in the Bible. They invented a non-religious magic, with fairies and things that didn't exist. And to this day even some fictional witches have a fictional, non-religious magic they are born with, like in Sabrina the Teenage Witch and Harry Potter.

Christianity and the bible does not mean religion. Religion can be of any type: Nordic, tribal, Celts, Shinto, Hinduism, etc The fact you're alienating other religion and focusing on Christianity shows you're narrow minded. You're acting like Christianity is the start of all religions.....

But religious magic doesn't have sparkly dust and puffs of smoke, it's made-up magic that may or may not be a metaphor for religion in Disney films, or even the original fairy tales.

Maybe not Christianity but it certainly is in other religions. Again, stop thinking Christianity=religion.

Don't ignore differences and made-up inventions the people who made their tales intended.

Many religions are made up by people, so what's your point?

[Siren]

I get the meaning, however, in the world of Harry Potter, there is not a being that grants such powers. Jesus was born of a mortal woman, but God still gave him his powers. Just as he granted Moses powers as well. Jesus and Moses were vessels of God's powers. You need a deity, some sort of form. Be it a man, a woman, or a thing, to worship. In Harry Potter, people are simply born pure-bloods, muggles, squibs, and half-bloods. Kinda like being born black or Asian or gay or male or female. Its simply who you are. You are either born with the gift or magic or your aren't. Its genetics, not religion. But no one in Harry Potter worships a deity. They simply are able to perform magical acts because of how they were born. JK Rowling never really went into religion. Sure his parents come back as spirits, its obviously there is something spiritual about Harry Potter, but spiritual and religious can be two different things.

I'm not pointing out Harry Potter is based on religion. I'm saying the magic in Harry Potter it is influence of, had been associated with religion.
Religion doesn't mean Christianity. There are others out there you know like the celts or Nordic's.

I wasn't saying you say HP was based off religion. I thought you meant the practitioners of magic within the Harry Potter universe had some sort of religion going on there, but no deity is ever mentioned throughout the course of the books and movies. And those who practice magic are born with it, its not learned...religion is a learned trait. You can take a baby born from a 100% Christian family and place it in a Jewish family, it will not automatically be Christian. Religion is something we learn. We are taught it. Its not a gift we are born with. Where as in Harry Potter, the ability to do magic is a born trait, a genetic one. Which is why before Harry even knew he was a wizard, he was practicing magic. Think of it like the X-Men. Similar idea.

I agree with you, that some of what Rowling placed into Harry Potter has connections with spiritual and religious beliefs. Just as there are Pagan and Christian tones in Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe. Frankly, as I said in other threads, nothing is 100% original, everything is based off of either history, the Bible, Shakespeare, or fairytales. And Harry Potter has a little of all of that.

[Disney Duster]

Super Aurora, essentially you are telling me what to believe. The people who wrote the Bible believed Jesus was doing something that was not magic, as Jesus told them it was not magic, as well. If they differentiate between miracles and magic, while Wicca differentiates between bad religious magic and good religious magic, and Disney and fairy tales differentiate beween bad made-up magic their fairies and witches have and good made-up magic their fairies and witches have, then acknowledge the differences that they intended.

Deciding to think of it all as the same thing is what you can believe, but not everyone, especially the people who thought of those differences when they wrote those tales, as well as the thing that real people believe in, divinity and miracles that is not magic.

You might as well say what the Greek gods did was magic or that God making Adam was magic, or do you mean magic is when a mortal or human does something supernatural? Otherwise you might as well say the world existing was magic because that was made in a way no ordinary human ever could, whether you believe it was God or what.

[Super Aurora]

Super Aurora, essentially you are telling me what to believe.

No I didn't. But if you want to believe it, go right ahead.

The people who wrote the Bible believed Jesus was doing something that was not magic, as Jesus told them it was not magic, as well. If they differentiate between miracles and magic, while Wicca differentiates between bad religious magic and good religious magic,

It's still essentially magic. Or rather a better word you may prefer is "supernatural". If you're using Wicca as analogy, basically what your saying is miracles(good magic) and magic(bad magic) . It still prove my point that they are essentially two sides of same coin.

and Disney and fairy tales differentiate beween bad made-up magic their fairies and witches have and good made-up magic their fairies and witches have, then acknowledge the differences that they intended.

Why are you keep on bringing Disney into this. It's completely irrelevant to the topic.

Deciding to think of it all as the same thing is what you can believe, but not everyone, especially the people who thought of those differences when they wrote those tales, as well as the thing that real people believe in, divinity and miracles that is not magic.

Believe what you want. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. But all I'm telling is the root meaning behind "magic".

You might as well say what the Greek gods did was magic or that God making Adam was magic, or do you mean magic is when a mortal or human does something supernatural?[/quote] You don't seems to get what I'm talking about. I'm saying many religions do have association with magic. What type of magic is up to the origin. Learn reading comprehension.