Oliver & Company- 20th Anniversary Edition

[Rudy Matt]

...you can make your case all you want, the answer is still going to be no. If "Dumbo" hasn't gotten one, I don't think you should hold your breath.

That surprised me. Why didn't Dumbo, one of the most succesful, beloved Classics from the Walt-days get a 2-disc presentation? (Rhetorical question, really.)

The fact that its barely over an hour long might have something to do with it.

[blackcauldron85]

My hope for Dumbo is that with the new 3-D theatrical release

Huh? I know I have a horrible memory, but I don't remember hearing about this...??!?!?

[goofystitch]

I've been trying to search the forum, which is where I swear I saw someone post about other Disney films that are getting 3D restorations besides Beauty and the Beast for 2010. I don't know why I can't find anything on here or when I search Google. Maybe I dreamed it and thought it was real? I don't know. In any case, forget I said anything about Dumbo in 3D until you hear it officially. lol.

[Neal]

So far only Beauty and the Beast has been announced to be upgraded into 3D. It's an experiment so for now, it's the only one. We may have another one announced if BatB is successful. I doubt Dumbo ever will get the upgrade. The reason BatB is able to have it done is because the film is saved digitally and layer by layer thanks to the CAPS process. Every layer of the film is saved separately, therefore they can go in and wrap objects around the 3D planes easily before laying the animation back over. Dumbo, being made before computers, does not have this layer by layer breakdown so it'd be extremely hard (maybe impossible?) to go back and do this.

It's believed only post-CAPS projects can have this done.

[ichabod]

With regards to Dumbo in 3D I can't be bothered repeating myself but read my post on the first page of the 3D BatB thread.

[2099net]

So far only Beauty and the Beast has been announced to be upgraded into 3D. It's an experiment so for now, it's the only one. We may have another one announced if BatB is successful. I doubt Dumbo ever will get the upgrade. The reason BatB is able to have it done is because the film is saved digitally and layer by layer thanks to the CAPS process. Every layer of the film is saved separately, therefore they can go in and wrap objects around the 3D planes easily before laying the animation back over. Dumbo, being made before computers, does not have this layer by layer breakdown so it'd be extremely hard (maybe impossible?) to go back and do this.

It's believed only post-CAPS projects can have this done.

That's not true at all - films like Star Wars are being given the digital 3D treatment.

If you think about it, you don't actually NEED so see what's obscured by the existing flat image - be it 2D or 3D, it will obscure the background. We're not talking about fully walk around, view from every angle 3D here, just adding depth to the background rather than to the foreground (there is a difference)

[Rudy Matt]

With regards to Dumbo in 3D I can't be bothered repeating myself but read my post on the first page of the 3D BatB thread.

I can be bothered to repeat you...only took about 30 seconds, Mr. Grumpy Gills.

"My God! So they've finally got round to doing this! Took them long enough. They were originally going to do this to Dumbo back in about 2005. Those plans seemed to be shelved. Then obviously Chicken Little came along in 3D and instead of a traditionally animated film, they instead gave the 3D makeover to The Nightmare Before Christmas. Obviously since 3D has taken off in a big way, I'm not surprised. Also since theatrical re-releases don't happen that often these days because of DVD it's not often you get to relive Disney classics in the theatre. I assume this is to coincide with the platinum DVD. And who knows it may bring the film to a whole new audience. Can't really see why anyone would be against it."

[Rudy Matt]

So far only Beauty and the Beast has been announced to be upgraded into 3D. It's an experiment so for now, it's the only one. We may have another one announced if BatB is successful. I doubt Dumbo ever will get the upgrade. The reason BatB is able to have it done is because the film is saved digitally and layer by layer thanks to the CAPS process. Every layer of the film is saved separately, therefore they can go in and wrap objects around the 3D planes easily before laying the animation back over. Dumbo, being made before computers, does not have this layer by layer breakdown so it'd be extremely hard (maybe impossible?) to go back and do this.

It's believed only post-CAPS projects can have this done.

That's not true at all - films like Star Wars are being given the digital 3D treatment.

If you think about it, you don't actually NEED so see what's obscured by the existing flat image - be it 2D or 3D, it will obscure the background. We're not talking about fully walk around, view from every angle 3D here, just adding depth to the background rather than to the foreground (there is a difference)

Correct -- any movie can undergo this process. Peter Jackson showed off about 10 minutes of The Lord of the Rings in this 3-D format pushing for it...hardly a movie made by the CAPS system.

[blackcauldron85]

Thanks, ichabod! Yeah, my memory is poor- I didn't remember reading this. You (I believe it was you) posted a link to a Jim Hill Media article about Dumbo in 3D, but the link posted in the thread doesn't work now, but I found the article:

http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/ ... 0/578.aspx

"Dumbo."The scuttlebutt around the studio right now is that Disney executives are currently giving some semi-serious thought to taking this 1941 release and putting it through the 2D-into-3D conversion process. They'd then let the picture be shown in IMAX theaters in a few test markets. Just to see if there actually is an audience out there for a traditionally animated Disney film that had been repurposed in this matter.

Now what's rather ironic about this whole situation is "Dumbo" is somewhat famous for being the least expensive animated feature that Walt Disney Productions ever produced. With its total production costs coming in at somewhere between $500,000 - $750,000. And yet now -- some 63 years after the fact -- here's the Mouse reportedly getting ready to spend over 10 times that amount in order to turn this traditionally animated charmer into a brand new 3D release.

Oh, I know. There are sure to be purists out there. People who will compare what may soon be done here to colorization. They'll say that taking traditionally animated 2D Disney films and turning them into 3D releases "... isn't what Walt would have wanted."

Well, I can't pretend to know what the Old Mousetro would have thought about all this. But I will say this much: Taking an old 2D film like "Dumbo" and turning it into a new 3D release is certainly better than what Michael Eisner has supposedly been talking about. Which is actually totally remaking traditionally animated Disney classics like "Peter Pan" as CG features.

[Neal]

Hm. I wasn't trying to be misleading. I swear I read somewhere reliable that only the Disney CAPs films could have this done.

I'll look into it, see if I can find what I was paraphrasing before.

EDIT: Perhaps this is what I was referring to:

Don Hahn:

About a year ago we looked at our library and looked at the 3D technology and the fact that more 3D screens are becoming available every week. It’s a chance to take a title that’s very beloved by the audience and try to share it in a way that people haven’t seen before. Also, the way we made it and archived it allowed us to do it. If it were any other movie, it might have been somewhat more difficult. We did Beauty and the Beast on the CAPS [Computer Animation Production System] System, which is the early computer animation system that we had at Disney and archived it in separate layers and separate levels, so there’s a great separation of all the artwork in the computer. So, we can go back in now and separate those layers into a depth of field to create a great 3D experience for the audience. In the end, we’re trying to deliver a great new piece of animation on a really familiar and beloved movie title.

[goofystitch]

Thanks to everyone who posted info about Dumbo's planned 3-D release. I was feeling crazy all morning because I could have sworn I had heard about it. Well, maybe if BatB does well enough in 3-D to warrant other classics restored in the format, maybe someday we'll see an elephant fly in 3-D. Personally, I'd rather see Peter Pan in 3-D if they are going to do a Walt-era film.

[Goliath]

I know your question was rhetorical Goliath, but that is something I've often wondered as well. [...] I feel the same way about Dumbo as I do with The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. Both are classic films and the characters are widely recognized and cherished. This applies more so to Pooh than to Dumbo, but I feel the characters from both films have been so exclusively marketed exclusively to kids that WDHE's stance on both is that the films only appeal to kids and that a 2-disc set for either would be a waste of time.

I think the Disney Company today doesn't recognize it's history, or doesn't care anyway. I could care less about BlueRays, but to treat Dumbo with such disrespect shows to me they're not really interested in their own company's rich history of animation. Or maybe they just try to mirror Walt's own take on Dumbo? I read Roy Disney said that Walt "threw away Dumbo like an old T-shirt" (paraphrasing here). Anyway, I never really liked the film, but I can recognize it as a Classic deservent of more respect.

The same goes for The Rescuers and (to get on-topic again) Oliver & Company. The first single-handedly saved Walt Disney Feature Animation from being closed down, and the latter was such a big hit it lead Eisner and Katzenberg to decide to release a new Classic every year. On the PE of The Little Mermaid, you can hear one of the directors say Katzenberg didn't believe TLM would be as big a hit as Oliver was.

[Rudy Matt]

I don't think it is disrespectful at all to give Dumbo a 3-D makeover -- Walt's multiplane camera was an attempt at 3-D without the glasses in the first place, I think he'd be thrilled to see Dumbo given a new lease on life.

One could say its disrespectful to show Dumbo in black and white on TV with multiple commercials, but Walt himself aired Dumbo in exactly that fashion. Showing Dumbo, digitally mastered, with depth and dimension on IMAX screens? That's not disrespect, that's honoring a great film (though the fact that its the shortest Disney animated feature and can screen every 90-100 minutes is probably a big factor here)

[blackcauldron85]

Speaking of Dumbo, I just got my Disney Movie Club monthly packet in the mail, and it says that the Big Top Edition is available "while supplies last"...are they planning on vaulting it anytime soon? (I just saw 2 pages away from where Dumbo is listed that it says the same about The Aristocats" Special Edition...)

[Goliath]

I don't think it is disrespectful at all to give Dumbo a 3-D makeover -- Walt's multiplane camera was an attempt at 3-D without the glasses in the first place, I think he'd be thrilled to see Dumbo given a new lease on life.

Oh, I didn't mean a 3D-release shows disrespect. I meant it's disrespectful not to give the film a 2-disc Special Edition treatment.

[Rudy Matt]

Understood.

I know there is much more that they could do, but I will say that the 60th Anniversary set was great for what it was...the sensational John Canemaker commentary made the disc.

Speaking of which, he's going to be sorely missed on the Pinocchio DVD.

[Goliath]

Understood.

I know there is much more that they could do, but I will say that the 60th Anniversary set was great for what it was...the sensational John Canemaker commentary made the disc.

That's lacking from the Region 2 DVD, as far as I know. (And also the reason I didn't pick up the DVD.)

(But we keep getting off-topic.)

[Simba3]

I picked up my copy today since my local Best Buy put about 6 copies on the self a week to early. I was pleasantly surprised to get this title a week early. However, we all know Disney has been lazy on the bonus features lately, and that this title was no different. However, they also got lazy on the disc art as well. The disc for this DVD is simply silver with the title written on it. Very disappointing. However, I'm just glad to FINALLY have this movie in my collection!!

[kbehm29]

Does anyone know why Amazon.com is charging so much for this release? $24.99.

I'm thinking about canceling my order and picking it up at Target for $16.99 or $19.99 max.

Amazon is normally very competitive - this has got me puzzled.

[toonaspie]

Back to the subject of Oliver & Company:

I'm going to standby on the decision as to whether or not to buy any version of the DVD until UD's review for it comes in...since chances are high there's going to be absolutely no difference between the 20th Anniv Edition and the "Special" Edition from a few years back. The only true deciding factor for me now is if the picture/sounds quality is improvable. If not then really I have to do is pick the edition that is selling the cheapest because it would be a waste of my money to get a more expensive copy.

Still I wonder if I should just wait another 5 years or whenever again in the case of this movie. I'm still really unnerved by the lack of new material and the fact that they're giving this new edition a "Disney DTV sequel" style upgrade. It's more like the new Special Editions of films like "Jungle Book 2" or "Beauty and the Beast: The Enchanted Christmas" where all you're really getting new is a new game.

"Oliver & Company" is NOT a direct-to-video sequel...it is an official film in the Walt Disney Feature Animation Canon. And despite what some posts have said, "Oliver & Company" DID make a good amount of money when it was first released in 1988. And while you may not think that $53 Million is considered a flop today, back in the late 1980s it was considered a good amount that convinced Disney to move forward with it's WDFA Rennaissance and release a new animated feature film every year. I'm probably one of the few people in existence who believes that Oliver & Company should've been credited as the gate opener to the Disney Rennaissance as opposed to everyone else who thinks the credit should go to the films O&C lies inbetween (usually either "The Great Mouse Detective" and "The Little Mermaid").

I think what caused people to forget about the film was the fact that for some ungodly reason Disney did not released the film on VHS during it's first run. I think if they had a video release the first time around, the film would have a bigger fanbase and more recognition than it has today.

So hopefully you can see why it is considered a travesty, IMO that this film is getting such a shoddy rerelease. Man the economy must be really bad if Disney can't afford to make decent upgrades. I hope they realized that this release may not bode over well for them by having nothing new to add. Though I do agree that Disney's unusual cycle of film releases makes no sense since THoND and Hercules have still yet to get any kind of new release.

With O&C's new release the way it is though, I fear how horrid THoND and Hercules' new releases would be if it were to ever happen!