The 2008-09 AND 2010 Doctor Who (& Spin-offs) Thread

Discussion of non-Disney entertainment.
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Post by Escapay »

I haven't yet seen "The Beast Below" as I'm waiting for "Victory of the Daleks" to air so that I can burn it to DVD-R to watch on TV. The sibs and I don't watch DW on my laptop as the speakers are lousy and none of us like crowding around it. :lol:

Gonna watch the BBC America episodes too, simply to help with the ratings (well, we're not a Nielsen house, but every viewer counts! Even the ones not counted! :P)
bradhig wrote:BBC America cut some scens short from Journey's End have they been doing that elsewhere?
They do that for all the episodes longer than the standard 45-minute length. The first few times it's rerun, it's show uncut (usually in a 90-minute timeslot for anything longer than 50 minutes), but later reruns are cut down for an 60-minute timeslot with commercials. It's not as bad as SyFy's butchering of the episodes when it used to air there.

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Post by bradhig »

Good cause SyFy had a nasty habit of really chopping up episodes.
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Post by 2099net »

Well, I've been silent on The Beast Below, and even after a couple more viewings I have to say it was average at best. Lots of good ideas, but ultimately muddled. The Smilers for instance didn't really have a proper purpose. They were just there, and regardless of Liz 10's anger at her subjects being fed to the beast, ultimately she still seemed to condone the Smilers. All in all, I was disappointed, probably because I expected more from Moffet, but the whole episode seemed like a first or second draft to me; lots of great ideas, lots of promise, but some logical flaws and ultimately, it just didn't seem ready.

But enough of this, on to Victory of the Daleks. I know a lot of people groan at the Daleks being in the programme yet again, but I really don't mind. To most people, it is basically Doctor Who and the Daleks, not just Doctor Who. I rather think RTD made a mistake by not including the Daleks in The End of Time like he originally planned; what better way to show the decent and corruption of the Time Lords than to have them conspiring with not only their enemies, but the ultimate Doctor Who monsters?

One thing I didn't like about RTD's WHO was the non-existance of the Daleks in the mainstream universe. I can understand 100% why this was done - dramatically it drove the whole Time War subplot. To justify the Doctor destroying Gallifrey, the Daleks had to be destroyed with it. But having Daleks armies being destroyed/removed en mass at the end of Parting of the Ways, Doomsday and Journey's End destroyed the programme's verisimilitude (if you believe something as fantastic as Doctor Who can have any form of plausibility). It was becoming tiresome to know that ultimately, the Daleks would be totally destroyed once again.

So I'm giddy with appreciation for Victory of the Daleks for so many reasons. Firstly, its a Dalek story which does something new with the Daleks. Bar, perhaps Power of the Daleks, this is a story which shows how cunning and crafty the creatures can be. And with no Davros in sight too! The first half of this episode was pure joy, and you can tell the creators were having fun both playing up to Dalek conventions and/or playing with them. While I doubt the Daleks have the ability to actually scare, the moments we see the Daleks more-or-less spying on the Doctor were superb. They just felt so right. Those alone were probably the best use of the Daleks in the revived series to date (but Lynda's extermination probably takes the top prize).

Does the second half get any better? Probably not. I can't quite decide it it does or doesn't. While I'm sure the images are iconic and will be remembered affectionately years from now, I'm not sure a spitfire dogfight in space with the Dalek saucer is quite in keeping with the earlier tone. Ordinarily, I'd have jumped at the sheer audacity of such a concept, but here, it doesn't seem quite right.

But after that we have the new Daleks. I'd been somewhat inoculated against the shock of the new thanks to this weeks Radio Times covers, but had I been watching with no pre-knowledge I'm sure I would have found the new Dalek designs to be fugly - because basically they are. But somehow, in the programme I felt they worked. They're bigger, bolder, more colourful. And at long last we have a Doctor Who universe (presumably by now) full of Daleks once again!

If you can, be sure to watch Doctor Who confidential too, its a cracking episode thanks to Mark Gatiss (who year-by-year is becoming a true English eccentric) and further information on the Daleks and their colour schemes and classes - There's Drones, Warriors, Scientists, Strategists, The Supreme and finally the mysterious Eternals (which even the Moff said he didn't know what it was, but was sure in a future Dalek story the Eternal would be vitally important).

As for Amy not recognising the Daleks... I did wonder to myself before tonight's episode if Amy was hosting Prisoner Zero from the opening episode - after all, she was close to him for years and presumably he created a strong mental bond with her.

But now, I don't think that - while living in Amy's house, Prisoner Zero would be just as likely to notice the events of The Stolen Earth as any human - in fact, would probably notice and understand them more with his alien knowledge. So, it looks like the mystery of Amy Pond, and what she really is, and the crack that seems to follow the TARDIS around is deeper than I thought.
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Post by bradhig »

The interior of the Tardis looks similar to the old white Tardies control room. The TARDIS on the outside looks like a real police box now. It has the police symbol on the right side and white borders around the windows.

I just ordered a flight control Tardis and I am looking for the old blue sonic screwdriver from the 10th doctor that light ups and writes invisible ink anyone know where I can find one in the US? I am looking to get a remote control Dalek Supreme and Davros as well.
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Post by 2099net »

Dalekgate

Sigh, it wouldn't be Doctor Who fandom without mountains being made out of molehills, but the newly designed Daleks aren't going down well with the majority of fandom. :rolleyes:

Image

Personally, I have a few reservations, the back section does look awkward, and it took a long time for the mid-section to grow on me (but now I think its perfectly fine). But overall, I love the new design and colours. I know the Cushing movie Daleks are cited as inspiration, but to me they're more like the 1960's TV21 comic strip Daleks:

Image

Considering the Dalek Saucers are based on the TV21 designs, it seems totally appropriate the programme takes more from the strip - after all, for some, the strip has the definitive version of the Daleks. Considering how popular Dalek Sec was over here, I'm thrilled by the new colours - I think it will get a lot of children very excited; and knowing each colour indicates a specific class, I think that there's story potential for the future.

In short, the redesign mixes old influences with the new, makes the Daleks bigger and badder, and (hopefully) makes them function more as a society with specific roles than the generic stormtroopers we tend to have seen in the past. To me, they're more win than fail.
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Post by bradhig »

Does this mean they will have green mutants inside instead of the tan squid like mutants in the new series daleks?
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Post by 2099net »

Well, we've not seen the mutants inside the new Daleks yet, but being as these a "pure" Daleks, and the brown/squid Daleks in the New Series were not "pure", they probably will be green. IIRC all Dalek mutants being shown in the classic series were green, except for Davros' later Imperial Daleks (which again, weren't "pure")
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Post by bradhig »

I don't know why people don't like those Daleks. Hopefully they will last longer because the original versions keep getting killed at the end of the season. Definitely gonna have to get the toys too bad they would have been at home in my old fanfic in which the Daleks attack a planet with the disney princesses but I have done anything with it in so long. I wanna hear those talk soo bad.
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Post by bradhig »

Just watched Victory of the Daleks. The old Daleks didn't fight back when the news shot them. The Daleks got away rats. I guess the white color for the Supreme came from the emperor in Evil of the Daleks.
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Post by 2099net »

Well, I've watched the two part Weeping Angels story and I'm going to be controversial, but I thought it was complete rubbish.

Over the past five years RTD's scripts have continuously been mocked by certain sections of fandom for having "unrealistic" ideas (as if the whole premise of the programme is the hight of "realism" :roll: ) or quick, deux-ex-machina conclusions.

Now while I'll admit there was a problem with some of Rusty's endings, in the bigger picture I don't really feel that they harmed the story that much, because the bulk of Russell's scripts were about big audacious ideas and the common person. He tended to focus on both of these, and it was the clash between the two which drove his stories. And nobody - nobody wrote the common, everyday person as well as RTD. He could introduce a new character in only a few lines of dialogue, and yet at the same time define the character too. In a few quick moments, we could identify and feel for his characters.

Moffett on the other had has had a more sci-fi approach to his scripts. Russell's sci-fi could, as best be described as sci-fantasy, where as Steven's ideas often, like all good sci-fi authors - takes the science of today as his starting point and expands upon it. He also enjoys playing around with the central concept of the programme - time travel - and likes to explore the consequences and paradoxes that could exist should time travel be real.

However, while enjoying Blink enormously, I always felt that something didn't quite add-up. Many of the concepts of the Weeping Angels just don't make sense;

* Earth is teaming with sentient life - birds, insects, mammals... Would a Weeping Angel ever be unobserved? Is it really if any sentient life is watching a Weeping Angel turns to stone? What about an earwig?

* How did the Weeping Angels follow Sally to the police station? Yes, it was dark, and yes it was raining, but the police station is still in the centre of a town? Based on the fact that they appear on window ledges outside the station they flew, but they happened never to be observed? What would happen if they were seen in the air? Would they crash to the floor and shatter? More to the point, how did they carry the TARDIS back to the house unobserved?

* And if they do turn to stone, its not as if it is invulnerable. Why couldn't somebody break the statue while looking at it?

It may seem like I'm nit-picking, because few if any of these ideas are apparent as you watch the story and are caught up in the drama (although I did wonder about the last one), but Steven's Weeping Angel concept is, at the end of the day, no more "realistic" than, say, RTDs idea of making everybody on Earth into the Master.

I think The Time of Angels and Flesh and Stone failed for me for so many reasons.

I feel it diluted or removed everything that was appealing about the Weeping Angels. I can think of no reason why they should have been turned into nothing more than common monsters, who snap people's necks. In Blink the Angels have an original MO, now they're aim is just like any other marauding monster.

And then we have the concept that an image of an Angel becomes an Angel. What? Really? How did they get this totally unscientific and seemingly random ability?

That idea is such a big ask to accept, its no different than Rose absorbing the Time Vortex and destroying the Daleks or The Doctor tapping into the psychic power of mankind to rejuvenate himself. At least Russell's deux-ex-machina endings had some foreshadowing before hand, no matter how slight. And yet, somehow, I don't think those fans so vocal about Russell's "arbitrary" storytelling will be as harsh on Steven.

It doesn't even make sense in the story - why would a collector have a Weeping Angel in his collection if he couldn't look at it or see images of it? OK, so you may point out the whole idea of the Angel being captured was a ruse so it could crash the ship into the Maze of the Dead, but again, that's a really big ask to accept too.

In Blink the Angels seemed to have the power to turn out light-bulbs. I could accept that, but here we see them "deadlocking" doors where there is no "deadlock" mechanism, controlling video playback devices, opening doors which have been sealed with magnetic clamps which should keep anything out... It appears the Angels have become capable of doing just about anything they want.

Finally, the story seems to throw away the most unique thing about the Weeping Angels - we never see them covering their faces. In Blink the whole resolution revolves around the fact that even they cannot look at each other, but here we have hundreds, perhaps thousands of Angels and they never take the time to cover their eyes. I know some will point out that they're always in an environment which could, at some point, be plunged into darkness, but I'm not sure that's 100% true. The Weeping Angels are called that because they cover their eyes, and here, we don't see it.

I also felt the whole story was far to serious for my liking. There was humour, but it didn't always work for me. When watching the story, it just didn't feel like a Doctor Who story. It was something which could, at a pinch, be done on Stargate or one of the newer Star Treks.

That's not to say the two episodes were without merit. The direction was assured, some of Steven's ideas were pure, true, sci-fi (such as his playing with gravity) or unique and original (such as his vision of the Church in the future). And the climax was incredibly clever and could in no way be classed as a RTD ending. (Although, I suppose it could be argued it was convenient the crack appeared in that position, and was so big and hungry)

Overall, I've been disappointed with this year so far. Matt Smith has grown on me - I love the business he does with his hands/arms sometimes, he sort of reminds me of Magnus Pyke. To know that these were the first two episodes he filmed as the Doctor really does show what a true talent he is. Meanwhile, Amy is probably the companion with the most back story ever seen in the programme, and continues to delight. But I can't help thinking something is missing - that special little something that lets us know that we're watching Doctor Who. Something a little bonkers, a little eccentric, a little audacious and a little common and down to Earth.

Oh well, as predicted, many do like it, including The Guardian which calls it the best ever Doctor Who story.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/ ... -and-stone Review contains major spoilers.
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Post by 2099net »

Found this on the tube of you, and thought it was both entertaining and witty:

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Every death in New Who (up to Planet of the Dead's conclusion - although it seems to count the then upcoming death of the 10th Doctor as one)
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Post by 2099net »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/torchwood/torchwood_new_series/

Starz and BBC in Co-Production shocker
Key cast - John Barrowman (Capt. Jack), Eve Myles (Gwen) – to return for the next installment, along with new faces

Monday 7th June 2010

BBC Cymru Wales, BBC Worldwide and US premium entertainment network, Starz Entertainment, have today announced a three way co-production partnership that will develop a new series of the hit BBC sci-fi drama Torchwood. BBC Worldwide will also distribute the series to broadcasters globally.

The 10-episode instalment will be written by a team led by Torchwood creator, Russell T Davies, and produced by BBC Worldwide Productions. Davies and BBC Worldwide Productions’ SVP Scripted, Julie Gardner, return as executive producers with BBC Worldwide Productions EVP Jane Tranter. The series has been commissioned by Controller BBC ONE, Jay Hunt, Controller BBC Drama, Ben Stephenson, and Starz President and CEO, Chris Albrecht.

While previous series were based on location in Cardiff, Wales, this new instalment will see storylines widen to include locations in the U.S. and around the world. John Barrowman and Eve Myles will return in their roles as Captain Jack and Gwen respectively, along with new faces.

Announcing the commission, Ben Stephenson, Controller, BBC Drama Commissioning said: "We have a long history of working with many U.S. networks but it is incredibly exciting to be working with Starz for the first time, as well as to be reunited with the best of British in Russell, Jane and Julie. Torchwood will burst back onto the screen with a shocking and moving story with global stakes and locations that will make it feel bigger and bolder than ever"

Jane Tranter, EVP, BBC Worldwide Productions, added: "Torchwood has attracted remarkable attention and loyalty in both the UK and U.S., and in this new partnership with Starz, the next chapter will not only reward our current fans, but also introduce new viewers to the most impressive instalment yet."

"We're committed to programming exceptional television that is entertaining, imaginative and provides a premium TV experience, and by any measure the new concept for Torchwood fits that mandate," Starz, LLC, President and CEO Chris Albrecht said. "I've been part of successful partnerships with Jane Tranter and the BBC previously, and I'm very much looking forward to working with them again."

Torchwood is a drama that puts extraterrestrial threats into a very real world, and asks how humanity deals with the danger - while fighting human's darkest instincts. The series was originally commissioned and produced in 2006 by BBC Cymru Wales, with the latest high octane series capturing UK audiences of more than 6 million.

BBC Worldwide has distributed previous Torchwood series around the world to territories such as Korea, Japan, Italy, Spain, Israel, Russia and across Latin America.
:huh: I can't help be apprehensive at this news - I think its pretty clear that Wales will no longer be the location of the series, losing (perhaps) characters like Rhys and (most likely) characters like Office Andy or Billis Manger who demands a return match with the team on screen, but also losing a major part of its appeal IMO. Shows like Torchwood are ten-a-penny; the X-Files, Fringe, Warehouse 13... all are similar to Torchwood. But the location somehow made the show. In some respects, yes it was silly and somewhat camp that Cardiff should have so many extra-terrestrial threats, rift or no rift. And even when looking at the bigger picture such as Children of Earth, the British sensibilities of the programme still made it unique - Children of Earth was just as much of a dialogue driven political thriller than a science-fiction action series.

Still, I'm happy Starz have it rather than Fox. Given what I've heard about Spartacus, I don't think anyone has to worry about Captain Jack being toned down or changed (although I predict the events of Children of Earth may mean we see a slightly subdued Captain Jack at first). I'll also be happy if we get another episode with Suzie Costello. According to RTD The Writers Tale, the original plan was a Suzie story every year.
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Matt Smith plays the Doctor Who theme with Orbital at Glastonbury

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sfJ1Qjdg_MY&co ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sfJ1Qjdg_MY&co ... edded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>
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Well 2010's Doctor Who season is over, with only Matt's Sarah Jane Adventures appearance this autumn/winter and (of course) the Christmas Special to distract us until 2011's Season.

Now, although I've not posted here often this year, I think if you have read my posts you'd see I was a little disappointed this year with the show. It's a very strange feeling, but its not something I can put my finger on exactly, but something just didn't feel right about Moffat's Who for the majority of the time.

However, there are things I can put my finger on; namely Moffat's insistence on changing his own creations. So we got Weeping Angels which weren't, and River Song who has changed from scientific "professor" to a sort of intergalactic thief and mercenary. Both are Moffat's creations, but both felt divorced from their earlier appearances on the show. And I do feel it harmed the series.

I'm not one who gets that pent up over change, but both of these seemed to be nothing more than characters who looked like they previously did. It's ironic - especially given the complaints from certain quarters of fandom - but the monsters who were changed physically (the Daleks and Silurians) may not have looked like their previous selves, but they did act like them. Moffat's changes to his own creations seems to have removed their spark.

But we still got a cracking set of episodes. Considering Moffat doesn't do "emotion" according to some (who obviously forget Girl in the Fireplace) this series has had be close to tears more than any of Russell's - the self-proclaimed master of emotion. Its also the series which I feel asked more mature and salient questions than any of Russell's. But just like any other season of Doctor Who we went from drama to comedy, from slapstick to violence, from tears to laughter; all sometimes within minutes of each other. Doctor Who remains a show that absolutely refuses to be categorised. And long may it do so.

Oh well, as for the climax - it was a typical Moffat script full of "timey wimey" moments. (Hey Steven, are you ever going to adapt your own "Continuity Errors" short story to the screen?). With Steven's best scripts, Time itself is almost one of the characters, which helps or hinders the plot. Perhaps The Big Bang was the ultimate Moffat script - it literally had "timey wimey" moments going back over the whole season. In fact, it could almost be seen as a direct sequel to The Eleventh Hour; possibly a sequel to every single episode this year. The whole season was Steven's sandbox, and boy did he play in it.

It could be said that the thing was confusing. I won't argue that. Not so much from the time-travelling (which was always clearly explained) but from some of the other high-concept ideas littering the script. But at the end of the day, the only idea that mattered was "nothing ever completely disappears" - a theme that has been bubbling under this season ever since the death of Rory. What we saw at the end wasn't a logical, scientific, rigid conclusion, but an emotional conclusion. And it worked. It worked beautifully as an emotional ending. And by God, wasn't Karen wonderful as Amy in the moment that mattered? And didn't we all want to cheer when we heard that familiar wheezing-groaning sound?

I am disappointed though that we never found out who the "big bad" was. The programme admitted this, so I can only assume the being/creature/force that piloted the TARDIS to destruction and proclaimed "Silence Will Fall" will be a thread throughout Season 6 in 2011.

If the Yeti are coming back (as is strongly rumoured), could it have been the Great Intelligence? It's certainly one of the few beings from the past who had the means and power to do so. (I hope the rumours of it being Omega are wrong - I don't think the programme needs another Time-Lord presence now for a good few years)
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Post by Escapay »

On the whole, I really enjoyed the season. New Doctor, new companion, new stories. Old ideas and conventions were revisited and sometimes for the better.

The Doctor, for example. In the Davies series (and especially the classic series) he is a hero, someone to be feared by evil and admired by good. With the Eleventh Doctor, you see that he embraces the danger, so much so that his companions do suffer for it. He's someone that's not to be trusted immediately, even though he constantly tells people to trust him. He lies in such a way you believe it to be the truth, even when you know it's a lie. It's an amazing turn, because you suddenly realize life with the Doctor isn't all adventures and fun, it's life-threatening at times. It all comes to a head in "The Pandorica Opens" when all his enemies unite to imprison him, to save the universe from HIM. This is not the Doctor we knew and loved before, he's not fighting evil, he IS the evil. It's f*****g brilliant. Of course, we the audience know that the Doctor isn't evil, but in this series, it's just amazing to see that other people don't always see it that way.

Matt Smith's portrayal is also amazing. Not once in the entire series was his age ever a factor in the episodes. People accepted when he said "I'm the Doctor" and did what he told them to do. I especially loved his interactions with Nasreen in "The Hungry Earth" and "Cold Blood". I really hope they revisit that story (1000 years later) in a future series simply so the Doctor and Nasreen can interact again. And if I had to pick the best episode that showcased Smith's abilities as the Doctor, it would have to be "The Lodger" (which I think is my favorite episode of the season). He really plays up the fish-out-of-water element while also showing he knows what's going on and is trying to fix it. The whole episode shows, dare I say, the most human the Doctor has been. And bow ties ARE cool. :D

I also like how the Moff has turned other series conventions on its head, and also changed things that we took for granted. Stories told themselves because they were stories, and the characters' reactions to them is where the emotion came from. I loved the Davies era because it was high on emotion, but sometimes the emotion felt prompted. The end of "Doomsday" seemed to be begging for tears, whilst "Midnight" had characters you just wanted to slap silly because they were being irrational, and yet both episodes were still quite stellar in storytelling and characterization. But Davies used the emotion card too often, and as a result, moments that should have had an impact on the audience sometimes felt more forced than natural. As poignant as Ten's "I don't want to go" line was, it came after 20 minutes of "feel sorry for me" scenes that were nice to see but a bit overreaching.

In Moff's first season, the emotional impact is much different (for me). You don't expect to feel anything if you just watch the episode as is, but upon re-viewings and watching episodes in a row, you notice things that make you feel for the characters more than you should. Amy is a spunky girl who obviously enjoys this life with the Doctor, but at the same time, there's an inner sadness that just can't be explained.

I really liked how they handled Amy throughout the series as well. Someone clearly obsessed with the Doctor from the get-go, and even though she remains devoted to Rory, she still harbors feelings for the Doctor and his lifestyle. I thought it was hilarious that she'd proposition him for a snog in the bushes, even with Rory right there. And it's so cool that her and Rory become the first married couple to be companions. Initially Rory felt too much like Mickey, the boyfriend left behind, but he eventually came into his own and became a character that was more than the homeworld link for the companion. I'm really glad that he and Amy are still together and that they'll be in the next series (wait, has it been confirmed that Arthur Darvill will be series regular in 2011?).

I'm glad they'll explain more about River in the next series, simply because I don't know what to make of her anymore. Is she good, is she evil, should we still care? At least with Davies you knew a character's intentions from the get-go (more or less). With River, either the Moff has a master plan that makes the audience doubt her or embrace her every so often, or he's making it up as he goes along. Given how he tied every episode together for 2010, I'm betting on the former, because the latter would be really reckless of him and he doesn't seem like a reckless kind of guy.

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Post by 2099net »

How do you feel about the "reinvention" of the Weeping Angels Escapay?

Like I say, I find it odd so many "fans" are vocal in their dislike of the redesigned Daleks or Silurians - yet they remained true to their roots as characters, while Moffat virtually reinvented the Weeping Angels for this season - and to their decrement I feel - it seemed they could do anything.

BTW: The new Daleks look awesome in the Adventure Game when you see squads of red drone Daleks swarming in the sky. I hope we see such sights on TV soon.
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