Moana

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ce1ticmoon
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Re: Moana

Post by ce1ticmoon »

Tangled wrote:I come to this thread and all I feel is nothing besides, "Man, I really loved Zootopia, and I thought it was original and refreshing compared to most other animated movies these days (including Pixar films). Also, most animated Disney movies have horrible trailers. Also, the new Trolls trailer makes that movie seem way more cliche than anything Disney Animation has put out in a long time. Also, I really want to rewatch Animaniacs."

Every piece of media has a formula, since every writer is influenced by whatever he or she finds appealing/thinks the audience will find appealing. The original Star Wars trilogy is a cliche hero's prophecy story, but that doesn't stop it from being one of the most beloved series of all time (and the new Star Wars trilogy seems to be reusing that formula, but I don't care because The Force Awakens was good enough to stand on its own). Filmmakers just keep on building upon what is currently popular, just as how Walt Disney kept on relying on musical fairy tales after Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs became a box-office smash almost 80 years ago.

Similarly, Disney doing The Lion King and releasing Toy Story definitely caused a shift in animated film storytelling, since TLK and TS appealed to people who even disliked the traditional (and, yes, formulaic) fairy tales that Disney was doing beforehand (which is a reminder that, back in 1995, Toy Story was nothing like any other animated film at the time, and it wasn't just because of the CGI). Of course, once you lean the scale one way, it's hard to go back to the way you were before, especially when it seems like people are more receptive to how you are now.
Well, that's why I'm perfectly fine with the use of tropes and formulas, so long as the execution is good. I was fine with the majority of Pixar's first 11 films using that formula (and frankly, I hardly noticed), because they were, for the most part, executed very well--they had imaginative and creative ideas and worldbuilding, strong writing, believable characters, and most of the films each explored different thematic elements, which allowed them to set them apart from one another. (Yes, some had issues and were overpraised, but I do feel that, as a whole, they were very strong.)

But I don't think the criticism of the formula growing tired is unwarranted--the weakness of most of the post-TS3-Pixar films, along with the addition of WDAS adhering to the formula, has kinda drawn more attention to the format and made it more noticeable IMO. But, for example, even though it incorporated that same formula, I thought Inside Out was one of Pixar's strongest films to date and I loved it to bits, so as long as the execution works, I'm not going to complain about that particular film. But then again, just because it works when executed right, doesn't mean they can't try to diversify their storytelling as a whole either. I never believed that these studios are the director-driven studios that they have claimed to be, but it really just starts to feel by-committee (which we all know is true to a large extent).

And even though I am growing a bit tired of the formula, I generally think WDAS's current 'era' is pretty solid. Nothing has has reached the masterpiece territory of the big four Renaissance films, but BH6 was the only real dud for me, and I thought the rest all had their strengths, to varying degrees (I do think Zootopia is probably the strongest to date, and it's largely because they are able to use the formula in a way that truly benefits the genre and themes of the film). I might get some flack for this, but I think the writing of the current films is generally a bit stronger than the post-LK Renaissance, though on the other hand, I also feel the current films do suffer from slightly more formulaic approach to their storytelling overall, as well as a more samey visual style. (And the visual flair is an area that I feel the post-LK Renaissance and even the early 2000s films really quite excelled at, even above the big four Renaissance films.)

So overall, I find myself caught between both sides of this argument, because I agree with certain aspects of each side of the issue. But in the end, I do think it's time to start using a different approach.
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Sotiris
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Re: Moana

Post by Sotiris »

Disney is getting backlash for a Maui costume — and rightfully so.

Disney releases Maui costume that lets kids pretend to be Polynesian
https://mic.com/articles/154448/disney- ... polynesian
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Warm Regards
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Re: Moana

Post by Warm Regards »

Sotiris wrote:Disney is getting backlash for a Maui costume — and rightfully so.

Disney releases Maui costume that lets kids pretend to be Polynesian
https://mic.com/articles/154448/disney- ... polynesian
I'll be honest, I thought this was another "Maui is ugly" stab. Something like "what sane parent would let their kid dress up like ugly Maui?!"

But reading the article ... yeah, that's too much, man.

Curious what Dwayne would say...
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DisneyJedi
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Re: Moana

Post by DisneyJedi »

............

Umm.......

:?
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JeanGreyForever
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Re: Moana

Post by JeanGreyForever »

Warm Regards wrote:
Sotiris wrote:Disney is getting backlash for a Maui costume — and rightfully so.

Disney releases Maui costume that lets kids pretend to be Polynesian
https://mic.com/articles/154448/disney- ... polynesian
I'll be honest, I thought this was another "Maui is ugly" stab. Something like "what sane parent would let their kid dress up like ugly Maui?!"

But reading the article ... yeah, that's too much, man.

Curious what Dwayne would say...
Lolz I thought that too because there are still complaints about his weight and appearance. Apparently in actual mythology he is built more like a Hercules figure so Polynesians are upset about that.
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disneyprincess11
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Re: Moana

Post by disneyprincess11 »

DisneyJedi wrote:............

Umm.......

:?
Seriously. I know what they're saying, but this is a pretty over-exagerration since this costume is based on a Disney character AND a character design. It's clear that Disney means well here. Did people attack Lilo and Shanti's costumes in 2002 and 2003?
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Re: Moana

Post by DisneyFan09 »

Hey folks. My laptop had some issues, so therefore I haven't been able to visit this board priorly. Regarding the new posters for the film, I loved them all. I thought they were excellent. Regarding the new trailer, I agree with the majority. That it yields promise at the beginning (showing the tribal life), but becomes generic afterwards. It's a pity that the generic Te Waka-song was used instead of a song from the movie. The best trailers released for Moana to date has been, unsurprisingly, the Japanese one and the Olympics spot. Though the latter wasn't even a trailer, it still was more compelling and satisfying than it's first teaser and this newer one. The only redeeming about the second part of the trailer is the shot of Moana and her mother.
Sotiris wrote:I still find Maui annoying
I agree with Maui being grating and not particularly compelling (funny that Dwayne Johnson is known for his charisma, but obviously haven't managed to carry his charisma to Maui), but his miniature version grates me even more! The idea is inspired, I guess, but frankly, it haven't captivated me at all and therefore he's the least aspect of Moana that I'm looking forward to!
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Sotiris
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Re: Moana

Post by Sotiris »

Why is Moana refereed to as "Moana of Oceania"? Whatever happened to her last name Waialiki? Come to thing of it, her last name was never officially revealed by Disney; it was leaked with some early story information. They might have scrapped the idea of giving her a last name since then.

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Re: Moana

Post by Sotiris »

disneyprincess11 wrote:Did people attack Lilo and Shanti's costumes in 2002 and 2003?
The difference is that this time Disney didn't just make a Halloween costume out of a character's outfit but a character's skin (with sacred tribal tattoos attached to boot). That's why the complaints are about Maui's costume, not Moana's.

But of course this is a broader issue that has to do with the exploitation of disenfranchised cultures. Someone on Tumblr made some valid points on this subject.
Despite all of the recourse to ‘representation’ politics, we have to fundamentally recognize that this ‘representation’ of / for Pasifika people comes in the context of global capitalism. What that means is that anything we are, anything we have, will be taken from us, stripped of any meaning which doesn’t directly contribute to producing capital, and then mass produced until it’s no longer profitable to do so.

This is where the politics of capitalist ‘representation’ get us. Literally brown skin suits. This is the culmination of the historical process which saw the mutilated body parts of my exterminated ancestors preserved, stolen and mass-marketed to Europeans in the 19th century. Now for kids.
Source: http://canadachild9.tumblr.com/post/150 ... this-is-so
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unprincess
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Re: Moana

Post by unprincess »

is it mostly liberal parents that are complaining about the costume? b/c if its parents Disney will probably get rid of it, likely quickly. If its just tumblr sjw types, they'll probably keep it around until it sells out. (Its the same with the conservative side, if its parents complaining about something, they'll budge, if its like loony fundy types, they dont give a crap.) The key is parents, Disney will bend over backwards for parents. Especially wealthy parents.

btw I thought the Maui costume was ridiculous in a funny way, but that historical note about the tattooed preserved skin does give it a whole other level of creepiness I hadn't considered. Yikes! :o
And the visual flair is an area that I feel the post-LK Renaissance and even the early 2000s films really quite excelled at, even above the big four Renaissance films.)
Agreed.
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Disney's Divinity
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Re: Moana

Post by Disney's Divinity »

Sotiris wrote: The difference is that this time Disney didn't just make a Halloween costume out of a character's outfit but a character's skin (with sacred tribal tattoos to boot). That's why the complaints are about Maui's costume, not Moana's.

But of course this is a broader issue that has to do with the exploitation of disenfranchised cultures. Someone on Tumblr made some valid points on this subject.
Despite all of the recourse to ‘representation’ politics, we have to fundamentally recognize that this ‘representation’ of / for Pasifika people comes in the context of global capitalism. What that means is that anything we are, anything we have, will be taken from us, stripped of any meaning which doesn’t directly contribute to producing capital, and then mass produced until it’s no longer profitable to do so.

This is where the politics of capitalist ‘representation’ get us. Literally brown skin suits. This is the culmination of the historical process which saw the mutilated body parts of my exterminated ancestors preserved, stolen and mass-marketed to Europeans in the 19th century. Now for kids.
Source: http://canadachild9.tumblr.com/post/150 ... this-is-so
Yes to all of this. The fact that they're making a skin costume is very disturbing. Not quite the same as wearing Tiana's dress, for example.
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Re: Moana

Post by DisneyEra »

Disney's Divinity wrote:
DisneyEra wrote: And as for the "Buddy Road Trip" formula growing tiresome, this is what was happening during the release of Pocahontas during the Renaissance "which also was growing tiresome in the eyes of some
You're right, and Pocahontas was the 5th film that followed that formula at the time. Moana is the 7th that is following this one (17+th if you include PIXAR, which is now owned by Disney). So your point about why the '90s could be criticized for being formulaic but the revival can't is....what again?
My point is where is the let down in this Revival era? It was evident that by the mid '90s that Hunchback, Hercules & Mulan were not as financially & critically successful as Beauty & The Beast, Aladdin & The Lion King. Read this piece from the LA Times in July 1997 which talks about this.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/19 ... t/ca-14132

But for the Revival, what feature post Tangled has been a financial & critical disappointment? The only film I can think of honestly is 2012's Wreck-It Ralph. Couldn't hit the 200 million mark or the 500 mark domestic & worldwide. Didn't sell much merchandise & made less than Pixar Brave & lost the Oscar after it was the favorite. But it got great critical reviews, with some even mistaking it as a Pixar feature & will be the first WDAS feature to get a sequel since The Rescuers down under released in theaters "not counting 2002's Return to Neverland". Both Frozen & Zootopia made over a Billion dollars worldwide & BH6 was 2014's higgest grossing animated feature worldwide & an Oscar winner.

So we will see what Moana will do this Holiday season, unless it does Brave-like numbers "$540 million total worldwide" this will be another monster hit for WDAS & the Revival era. And with that, nothing will change until the letdown happens.
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Re: Moana

Post by D82 »

New TV spot:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OdEDYYVRRs[/youtube]
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DisneyEra
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Re: Moana

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So according to people on tumblr & twitter this Maui costume is racist & exploits Polynesian culture & people of color. So why is there no complaints about this Merida costume complete with a red haired wig? Why weren't Scottish people upset that Pixar & Disney was exploiting Scottish culture? This is what we call a double standard. It's only racist when it fits their own personal agenda.
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Re: Moana

Post by Tristy »

It's like how people complain about a lack of African American leads in Disney films yet they have no problem with a lack of African American leads in Pixar films. Yes. I know there were supporting roles but no leads. That is also a double standard.
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Re: Moana

Post by DisneyEra »

Tristy wrote:It's like how people complain about a lack of African American leads in Disney films yet they have no problem with a lack of African American leads in Pixar films. Yes. I know there were supporting roles but no leads. That is also a double standard.
I can only image what Coco is gonna go through a year from now. They're waiting to attack this film.
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Re: Moana

Post by Disney's Divinity »

DisneyEra wrote:
Disney's Divinity wrote:You're right, and Pocahontas was the 5th film that followed that formula at the time. Moana is the 7th that is following this one (17+th if you include PIXAR, which is now owned by Disney). So your point about why the '90s could be criticized for being formulaic but the revival can't is....what again?
My point is where is the let down in this Revival era? It was evident that by the mid '90s that Hunchback, Hercules & Mulan were not as financially & critically successful as Beauty & The Beast, Aladdin & The Lion King. Read this piece from the LA Times in July 1997 which talks about this.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/19 ... t/ca-14132

But for the Revival, what feature post Tangled has been a financial & critical disappointment? The only film I can think of honestly is 2012's Wreck-It Ralph. Couldn't hit the 200 million mark or the 500 mark domestic & worldwide. Didn't sell much merchandise & made less than Pixar Brave & lost the Oscar after it was the favorite. But it got great critical reviews, with some even mistaking it as a Pixar feature & will be the first WDAS feature to get a sequel since The Rescuers down under released in theaters "not counting 2002's Return to Neverland". Both Frozen & Zootopia made over a Billion dollars worldwide & BH6 was 2014's higgest grossing animated feature worldwide & an Oscar winner.

So we will see what Moana will do this Holiday season, unless it does Brave-like numbers "$540 million total worldwide" this will be another monster hit for WDAS & the Revival era. And with that, nothing will change until the letdown happens.
So the '90s can be criticized for being formulaic and the Revival films can't because...they made money? So did the '90s features? So what? Money does not make a film immune from all criticism.
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Re: Moana

Post by Disney Duster »

Tangled wrote:Every piece of media has a formula, since every writer is influenced by whatever he or she finds appealing/thinks the audience will find appealing. The original Star Wars trilogy is a cliche hero's prophecy story, but that doesn't stop it from being one of the most beloved series of all time (and the new Star Wars trilogy seems to be reusing that formula, but I don't care because The Force Awakens was good enough to stand on its own). Filmmakers just keep on building upon what is currently popular, just as how Walt Disney kept on relying on musical fairy tales after Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs became a box-office smash almost 80 years ago.

Similarly, Disney doing The Lion King and releasing Toy Story definitely caused a shift in animated film storytelling, since TLK and TS appealed to people who even disliked the traditional (and, yes, formulaic) fairy tales that Disney was doing beforehand (which is a reminder that, back in 1995, Toy Story was nothing like any other animated film at the time, and it wasn't just because of the CGI).
No. Bambi came before The Lion King. The Lion King was just like Bambi. So you're argument about formulaic Disney movies and people disliking them before The Lion King makes no sense.
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Re: Moana

Post by Kyle »

Disney's Divinity wrote:
Sotiris wrote: The difference is that this time Disney didn't just make a Halloween costume out of a character's outfit but a character's skin (with sacred tribal tattoos to boot). That's why the complaints are about Maui's costume, not Moana's.

But of course this is a broader issue that has to do with the exploitation of disenfranchised cultures. Someone on Tumblr made some valid points on this subject.
Source: http://canadachild9.tumblr.com/post/150 ... this-is-so
Yes to all of this. The fact that they're making a skin costume is very disturbing. Not quite the same as wearing Tiana's dress, for example.
They wanted to take the most iconic aspect of the character and allow kids to wear it, how else do you expect them to do this in a cost effective way?
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