Episode 4: A New Hope for Gay UD Threads?

[Rose Dome]

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, UmbrellaFish.

It doesn't seem out of the possibility that your friend is an internalised homophobe, but I don't know him. He could very well just be a friend you don't need.

All I can recommend (as blackcauldron has) is that you surround yourself with support.

I wish you all the best.

[Disney Duster]

Aw UmbrellaFish! *HUGS!*

But hey, I've thought you were gay for quite a while, and you said you weren't, but that we would think you were for loving Julie Andrews and The Little Mermaid! You sly fox! Welcome to the coolest thing to be in the world: gay!!!!! And a Disney fan!!! Yay!!!!!!

Alright, well your step one was coming out to us here, so now you must continue this by being open with us here, and talking to us more like that. At least one of the many gays of this place should be around an any time to respond to posts about your personal feelings you want to express (aka indulge in your pity fests with you, lol, I would never call your post a pity fest). The only thing is make sure your parents won't be poking around to see you talking about gay things on here...!

I am sad you are an atheist. : ( I wish that would change, but that's a different discussion! Aaaanyway, you are super special, and you should not wish you are different. You love that you are a super cool gay liberal Disney guy, don't ya? Come on, you do! You are Ariel in the conservative sea! Belle in her stupid town! Someday you will make it out! Since you're very smart, I think you could soon land a college or job far away where you can meet better people and live happily ever after, lol! College itself is usually pretty liberal, even Catholic ones, I've heard! Isn't that weird? It's cause they aren't allowed to be homophobic!

Yes it is bad that you care about what people think. I use to do that a lot, and I have a problem with it still, but lately I have realized I need to just tell myself "F that, I'll do what I want!" LOL, well, you know, not exactly like that. Just do what you want as long as you know whatever you do is good/okey dokey, and will keep you safe, and that latter part is what we here are mostly worried about for you now, isn't it?

So, your friend...well, from what you wrote, I actually think he could indeed be faking his homophobia. For one - he's your friend, it's weird to think you'd end up getting so close to someone who you felt was so truly a homophobe. Two, he lives in a homophobic community, of course he would want to fit in by acting like that. Three, people that are that homophobic have tended to turn out to be like that because they themselves think/know they are gay. I myself said I had a crushes on girls to cover that I was gay, and that was when I was in, dun da da dun! Catholic school!

Ah, but even if he was gay, there is still the worry that he might not admit it when you told him about yourself, until he grows the f up someday and realizes what he is and that it's not wrong.

The way I see it, there are quite a few possibilities:

The first one is, that you may only think you love him because you don't have many close friends and he is the cute boy who is the closest to you in your life. It is a true puzzle that you could possibly love him when he is so homophobic, his homophpbia should have turned you off from loving him, unless you truly feel his homophobia is fake. Remember, you are young and in high school, you are only just learning about what love is now.

The next is what would happen if you told him. And that would pretty much lead to either something safe and positive or something very bad. All the positives of course are that he would accept you because he's your friend, that he would be gay too, or that he would love you too! All that is safe. The other things, the things on the unsafe side, should be considered more carefully. He could not accept you, and thus not be your friend anymore, but perhaps not tell anyone, so all you'd be doing is losing him, which is sad, but then like Goliath and Flanger Hanger said, he's not a true friend then, is he? He would not be worth your love or care. Now, perhaps if this happened, he wouldn't tell anyone because of the friendship you had. Do you think that's possible? How well do you know him, if you think you love him? Because the worst thing he could do is tell other people, even just one single other person. No matter what he did after that, it's all very bad because of all the possibilities all that could lead to. Do you think I'm right about that?

So the other thing is what would happen if you didn't tell him? Well the longer you don't tell him, the longer you can know more about him, and that is very, very good. You can try and figure out if he's gay or not, or how he might react if he found out you are gay. The worst that would happen is you might keep your feelings shut until the day when you feel you can be open about yourself, whether because you've found people who could take you in if your parents kicked you out (would they do that?), or because you're out on your own, in college or some apartment, away from this oppresive community.

Now, I don't know exactly how bad you have it. If you came out to your friend and the worst thing was he told other people, would the worst reaction to that just be that most people around you didn't like you, and they and your parents treated you differently?

Oh, I forgot, there is one more option. You tell him you're gay, see how he reacts, then, depending on whether he accepts that or not, you can tell him how you feel about him later, but if either of these two confessions cause him to leave you and talk about you, you can lie and say that you never told him any such thing. Do you think that would work? He'd have absolutely no proof that you were gay. The worst thing that could happen is people would have rumours and your parents might go fishing in your stuff for anything gay-related, from words where you say you're gay to links about being gay to full-blown naked pictures of guys. So if you have anything like that, you would want to hide those extremely well, or unfortunately maybe get rid of them.

Well, I think that's enough advice I can possibly think of for you in your sad, sad situation. I am sorry you have this situation. Aw, Umbrella! But I hope for the best, and if I were you, I personally would try to be a super sleuth and try to find out what my friend is or how he would react before I told him. I would look for signs, look in his room, look at links like BlackCauldron's excellent one, just pay super close attention. And who knows if your feelings for him will wax or wane in the process, and then you may not even have to tell him, depending.

I think all of us here wish you looootsa luck! I hope things get happier for you soon! And welcome to the cool club of UD gays.

[UmbrellaFish]

First, I want to say... Thank you for all the support. I didn't ever expect a different reaction, but to actually see it here is heart-warming.

Which begs the question: is he a real friend, then?

It doesn't seem out of the possibility that your friend is an internalised homophobe, but I don't know him. He could very well just be a friend you don't need.

I’ve thought about this question, even before I typed this up. I just, don’t know. It might be for the best to drop him as a friend, and move on. But my options are so limited right now, that I’m scared of making that leap. I know I might have to fess up to myself, and go, but I can’t admit that right now. I hope I don’t sound obstinate, but that’s just where I am.

Is there a GSA at your school (I'm guessing not based on your description)? If not there's bound to be some people who can at least agree with your attitudes/beliefs (not just about whether it's ok to be gay), even in your community. You just have to find them, and while it may be hard it's very much worth it in the end.

I'm afraid there isn't any group like that at my school. I already have a few people in mind for whom I'd like to tell first, people I like and people I know who would be completely comfortable with me being gay. I have to overcome some trust issues first, though, with myself, before I can take that step.

Thank you, Amy for that link. It was very insightful, and I saw some of myself in the article, too. I'm still not comfortable with being "gay." You know, the word being attached to me, not the sexuality. Being the first adjective people will describe me with when they talk about me, whether they have good things or bad things to say about me. But I'm coming to terms with that.

But hey, I've thought you were gay for quite a while, and you said you weren't, but that we would think you were for loving Julie Andrews and The Little Mermaid! You sly fox! Welcome to the coolest thing to be in the world: gay!!!!! And a Disney fan!!! Yay!!!!!!

I don’t remember saying that, but I’m sure I did. Definitely at one point, not too long ago, I did try to pretend I wasn’t gay, but over time, I’ve laxed up on it, until now that I could actually say it. And I have. And I’m glad that part of the secret is chipped away.

Someday you will make it out! Since you're very smart, I think you could soon land a college or job far away where you can meet better people and live happily ever after, lol! College itself is usually pretty liberal, even Catholic ones, I've heard! Isn't that weird? It's cause they aren't allowed to be homophobic!

Ha, my dream has been to move to go to college, move to New York, write plays and become successful. There’s lots of little pieces to that dream, that involve seguewaying into different fields in the entertainment industry, but that’s my very basic goal. Part of the dream that entices me is the liberation it will give me. It would be fantastic. On the other hand, I know that I’ll always have a part of myself in my hometown, and regardless of whether my dream comes true, I’m still going to have to permit my identity to be known. I have two basic fears, not achieving my goals and living the rest of my life where I am, and number two, achieving them beyond my wildest dreams, but allowing my hometown attachments to keep me from being my own person.

So, your friend...well, from what you wrote, I actually think he could indeed be faking his homophobia. For one - he's your friend, it's weird to think you'd end up getting so close to someone who you felt was so truly a homophobe. Two, he lives in a homophobic community, of course he would want to fit in by acting like that. Three, people that are that homophobic have tended to turn out to be like that because they themselves think/know they are gay. I myself said I had a crushes on girls to cover that I was gay, and that was when I was in, dun da da dun! Catholic school!

Yes, you see, he wasn’t always this homophobic. In truth, we didn’t talk about homosexuality, but he’d never given me any indication that he was discriminate towards gays beside the unfortunate use of the word as a synonym for an insult. Everyone did that, and sadly still do. Speaking of trying to fit in, I used it, once or twice, but never much and would never use it again. I’m still ashamed of that. Anyway, the first time I noticed he was getting homophobic was when we were talking about Glee. He actually watched the show first, and it was he who convinced me to watch it. I had stayed away from it since I thought it was too stereotypical of a show for a Drama nerd like myself to watch, but, as you know, I got drawn into it. When the second season began airing, we’d talk about the show every Wednesday like we always did, but he began to grow an intense dislike for Kurt. Eventually, he stopped watching the show because of Kurt’s relationship with Blaine. Not long after, he started making some really hurtful remarks about homosexuality and gays in general, and I would call him out on it, especially when he made comments about things along the lines of “The one good thing Hitler did was to kill off the gays,” and after I explained to him Oscar Wilde’s sad life, he said, “Good. He was a monster.”

I couldn’t believe he said those things…. He had never shown himself in such an appalling light. Of course, when he realized he’d pissed me off, he acted like it was a joke. But you don’t talk about that stuff that way, especially in the manner he did.

I’m working on not caring about what people think. That’s another one of my goals. Right now, it’s a delicate matter. I admit, I have low self-esteem, for various reasons. And because of that, I care deeply about how other people perceive me. Sometimes, I make jokes about things I’ve done horribly, like for instance, a mask I made for Mardi Gras. It was awful, but when I’d show it to people, I’d say, “Look at this masterpiece!” in a funny way, or so I thought. It’s come to my attention, that these comments, are not always taken in the manner I mean them, and I sometimes come across as an egotistical ass. But that’s besides the point.

The first one is, that you may only think you love him because you don't have many close friends and he is the cute boy who is the closest to you in your life. It is a true puzzle that you could possibly love him when he is so homophobic, his homophpbia should have turned you off from loving him, unless you truly feel his homophobia is fake. Remember, you are young and in high school, you are only just learning about what love is now.

I know it’s weird. Ha, ha. I have plans to turn it into an independent movie. lol But, as I explained above, he wasn’t always like that. Unfortunately, I’ve begun to understand my feelings for him at the same time that he’s begun to show this facet of himself. I know I’m young, and I fully expect to mature and grow, hopefully he will, too.

Now, perhaps if this happened, he wouldn't tell anyone because of the friendship you had. Do you think that's possible? How well do you know him, if you think you love him? Because the worst thing he could do is tell other people, even just one single other person. No matter what he did after that, it's all very bad because of all the possibilities all that could lead to. Do you think I'm right about that?

I’m not sure. If he stopped being friends with me, it would be difficult for the both of us because we travel in the same circles. Would he tell anybody? I’ll have to think hard about that. He wouldn’t spread it around maliciously about me, I don’t think, but if asked why we were no longer friends, even if I had sworn him to secrecy, I can certainly see him telling. When I come to a definite conclusion, I’ll tell you.

So the other thing is what would happen if you didn't tell him? Well the longer you don't tell him, the longer you can know more about him, and that is very, very good. You can try and figure out if he's gay or not, or how he might react if he found out you are gay. The worst that would happen is you might keep your feelings shut until the day when you feel you can be open about yourself, whether because you've found people who could take you in if your parents kicked you out (would they do that?), or because you're out on your own, in college or some apartment, away from this oppresive community.

My plan so far has been to wait. I know I’ll tell him. But I want to make sure he’ll understand where I’m coming from. If that never happens, if I still know him well, then I’d tell after graduation or something like that.

Now, I don't know exactly how bad you have it. If you came out to your friend and the worst thing was he told other people, would the worst reaction to that just be that most people around you didn't like you, and they and your parents treated you differently?

No, I don’t think my safety would be in harm. We’re at least that progressive here. But everyone would treat me differently, and I’m as of now, still to big of a coward to face that. As for whether my parents would kick me out, my parents would be angry if I told them now. I can’t imagine them kicking me out, though. But my home life would be a very tense situation. However, I don’t plan on telling them until I can sustain myself, and hopefully have a decent income with a few hits on my hands. ha

Oh, I forgot, there is one more option. You tell him you're gay, see how he reacts, then, depending on whether he accepts that or not, you can tell him how you feel about him later, but if either of these two confessions cause him to leave you and talk about you, you can lie and say that you never told him any such thing. Do you think that would work?

No, honestly, no. There are already rumors about me (and for that matter, him), and if my best friend who is well-respected suddenly stopped being friends with me and told everyone I was gay, it would be completely accepted as truth. Which it would be, anyway.

Thank you for all your advice and kind words, Duster, and to everyone who commented. I really appreciate it. Although, I want to say, don’t feel sorry for me! I’m doing okay, just confused right now. People have it much worse than I, gay or straight. I’m too much of an optimist to ever be really down.

[Goliath]

Not long after, he started making some really hurtful remarks about homosexuality and gays in general, and I would call him out on it, especially when he made comments about things along the lines of “The one good thing Hitler did was to kill off the gays,” and after I explained to him Oscar Wilde’s sad life, he said, “Good. He was a monster.”

And you're still friends with him? To each his own, but if I had known this person and he would say things like that, I would think he's a tool and walk away from him and never speak to him again. And I'm not gay.

By the way, I never knew you weren't gay. I just always assumed you just were. It may be stereotypical, but no straight guy loves Julie Andrews *and* Glee *that* much.

[Lazario]

UmbrellaFish is gay.


(Did I miss something?)

[Sotiris]

EDITED

[Goliath]

It may be stereotypical, but no straight guy loves Julie Andrews *and* Glee *that* much.

It is stereotypical and you're wrong.

Geez, you should really remove that stick from your @$$

[Flanger-Hanger]

Rob Reiner's play "8" was streamed live via Youtube last night with a cast that included Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Martin Sheen and Kevin Bacon (full cast here: http://act.afer.org/site/PageServer?pag ... streamRSVP). I saw it and it was fantastic. It uses transcripts from the appeal court trials to reenact what happened to create the landmark decision.

You can watch it here in full: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlUG8F9u ... r_embedded

The first 15 minutes is a video preshow with TV clips of commercials and news footage about the case before showing the play itself.

[Disney Duster]

Flanger-Hanger thank you for that, maybe I'll look at the whole thing later, but as it is I just watched bery little for now and what did "Paul" mean when he said, "Unless you have to go through that constant validation of self, there's no way to describe how it feels." After that he says "I love Jeff more than myself. And being excluded in that way is so incredibly harmful to me." and before that "Kris" said "It symbolizes maybe the most important decision you can make as an adult - who you choose." But what precisely was he talking about?

Umbrellafish, maybe if he only started being against gays because of Kurt's relationship, it is just now really connecting to his own homosexuality and he's fighting against it so vehemently because of that...but actually it also sounds like he did like Glee and just ignored Kurt but then when actual gay relationships and kissing started, it was too much gay for this straight guy who just wanted to watch the straight stuff. : / I don't know. I read all the other things you said, and am still hoping for any help in any of the situations you have, in fact, this reminds me I'll pray for ya too even though you don't believe that and of course I don't believe that means the prayers will definately make things how you want them, but aaaanyway...

I thought the other night that, if things haven't changed with your friend yet, maybe you could do this: Well first, does he believe in or care about Jesus? Because you could one day, when he makes a remark about gays (gotta do it then so it seems less obvious) tell him if he follows Jesus that Jesus accepted everyone and didn't condemn them, so he should accept gays. That can be an intro to this next part, or skipped altogether: Tell him that if he was gay, you would accept him, and then ask, if I was gay, would you accept me?

I don't think there's anyway that he could tell from that that you definately were gay, so do you think that might be a good shot?

[ajmrowland]

Not long after, he started making some really hurtful remarks about homosexuality and gays in general, and I would call him out on it, especially when he made comments about things along the lines of “The one good thing Hitler did was to kill off the gays,” and after I explained to him Oscar Wilde’s sad life, he said, “Good. He was a monster.”

And you're still friends with him? To each his own, but if I had known this person and he would say things like that, I would think he's a tool and walk away from him and never speak to him again. And I'm not gay.

By the way, I never knew you weren't gay. I just always assumed you just were. It may be stereotypical, but no straight guy loves Julie Andrews *and* Glee *that* much.

i agree. if it were me, i would've just bestowed the ultimate test on him and said it out loud.

[Flanger-Hanger]

Flanger-Hanger thank you for that, maybe I'll look at the whole thing later, but as it is I just watched bery little for now and what did "Paul" mean when he said, "Unless you have to go through that constant validation of self, there's no way to describe how it feels." After that he says "I love Jeff more than myself. And being excluded in that way is so incredibly harmful to me." and before that "Kris" said "It symbolizes maybe the most important decision you can make as an adult - who you choose." But what precisely was he talking about?

Based on what I remember (since the video is now private). I'm guessing he's referring to the idea that without the title marriage provides you constantly have to prove/convince and explain to others what your relationship status is and its meanings. With marriage and the term "husband" everyone gets what you're talking about.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

I came out to my Dad today after a long and confused talk (I had been rather vague in handling it). I had no clue what to expect from the talk. It could either go fine, or it could go bad enough that I'd need to use my safety net money for a one way trip to Vancouver to live with my Mom.

In the end, he was fine with it. He said I'm still his son and that it's my business who I want to be with. So I am SO relieved and happy, it's a huge ball of stress that I don't need to carry around anymore. After the talk we went about things as usual, watching a couple movies together. Tomorrow I may or may not finish what I've started and come out to the rest of my family.

[Rose Dome]

^ ^ ^

I'm glad to hear that it went well with your Dad, and I wish you all the best with the rest of your Family.

[Disney's Divinity]

That's great news, CR!

@UmbrellaFish: I've been too busy with things in real life to read a lot of stuff in this and the Universe that stomped on me thread, but I hope everything's going okay with you and that you'll be alright. It gets better, as they say.

[Disney Duster]

Wow Chernabog_Rocks! Finally! lol That was brave, but you did have to do it sometimes, and I am so so glad it turned out that way!! If you think you should come out to the rest of your family, then good luck! Your mom already knows, right? I think I remember and it should be obvious but just asking.

[Scarred4life]

Vt.'s Ben & Jerry's issues pro-gay marriage flavor

http://ktar.com/399/1515606/Progay-marr ... r-released

[Chernabog_Rocks]

Wow Chernabog_Rocks! Finally! lol That was brave, but you did have to do it sometimes, and I am so so glad it turned out that way!! If you think you should come out to the rest of your family, then good luck! Your mom already knows, right? I think I remember and it should be obvious but just asking.

Yup, my Mom has known for a couple years or so at least. Most people on her side as well know, so it's just a matter of telling the last few people here and there.

[Disney Duster]

Good to know Cherny. I'm surprised the other people didn't get told already by it getting passed on though.

[ajmrowland]

Vt.'s Ben & Jerry's issues pro-gay marriage flavor

http://ktar.com/399/1515606/Progay-marr ... r-released

I wld love to give a couple of those commenters a good punch.

[Scarred4life]

^ My thoughts exactly. I had to stop looking at them, they were so aggravating.