Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs New 2-Disc DVD Thread

[The_Iceflash]

Yes it is. Maybe not to those who jump on the new technology bandwagon whenever something new comes out and are quick to drop the old and maybe not to those who play the numbers game (trying to get the highest specs currently out there and using that to compare the significance of the differences of formats instead of their eyes.) but to the majority it's impractical and even unnecessary. Some people get a kick out of either replacing for feeling compelled to upgrade their movie collections every ten years but those who don't play the numbers game get annoyed by it. It's as if their current format will never be good enough. Those who try to keep up with technology will never be satisfied.

It's not good enough any more. That is a fact. .

It's only not good enough to those who feel they have to keep up with technology.

[2099net]

It's not good enough any more. That is a fact. .

It's only not good enough to those who feel they have to keep up with technology.

No. It's not good enough. Its a fact. We're not talking about specifics, but in general. A format which has less than 1/4 of the resolution of displays which are easily and readily available is simply not "good enough". Like I said, its not complicated.

Display technology has moved on so recording/playback technology has moved on to keep up. If HD displays and programming didn't exist, Blu-ray wouldn't exist either. Technology is driving Blu-ray, not Blu-ray driving technology. The time-frame is irrelevant (expecially as the often quoted "You have to rebuy all your films" argument is untrue. Its personal choice if you rebuy a film or not, just as its personal choice if you rebuy a film again on DVD you already own additional supplements).

Are you saying a TV Network should pay for HD shooting and HD transmission, but when it comes to home video release should only be able to release it in standard definition? What sort of logic is that?

[BelleGirl]

Could we return to the original subject of this thread, please?

[Margos]

In case you didn't hear me the first time, 2099net....

It's not good enough any more. That is a fact.

Just so's we're clear: It isn't the best anymore. It isn't the top, the apex, the peak of the mountain, etc. anymore. But it is "good enough."
It's good like generic perfume. Maybe it isn't as "good," but it's all most people can afford. It's more attainable, and, in the end, just as enjoyable. Some people are just really, really, really picky, and those people certainly couldn't survive on what my family makes in a year.
But I certainly can, and so can most people. DVD is good enough for those people.

[2099net]

In case you didn't hear me the first time, 2099net....

But I wasn't addressing you Margos. I was addressing Iceflash who basically said 10 years is too soon to introduce a new format, and said new format isn't even needed or desired. There is a logical and practical reason why Blu-ray has been introduced at this time.

If you read what I wrote you'll see I specified "some people" when talking about Blu-ray take-up and I said that while technology moves on, its up to you if you think its worth the price or not. I understand different people have different priorities. For example I still don't have an amp or surround sound system. I've always preferred to spend the money on more discs - but it doesn't mean the technology for surround sound technology in the home isn't worth creating. Lots of people have had hours upon hours of pleasure listening to their TV and DVDs on a home theatre sound system.

If Blu-ray players and discs dropped to $1 each, I'm sure every single person on this forum would embrace the format with no complaints at all! I know new technology pricing sucks - but DVD was exactly the same in its day. My first player cost me £300! (that about $500 at current exchange rates). Hell, even my first DVD drive for a PC before I got before the player was half-that price!

[Margos]

Yes. And, eventually, I switched to DVD. It wasn't because of aggressive marketing tactics. It was because, eventually, VHS died, and DVD took its place price-wise. This will happen with DVD as well. It will die, and Blu-Ray will then drop in price. But it will not do that until DVD is good and dead, which probably won't be for another year or two.
Until that time, DVD is still the standard format, and Blu-Ray is an "extra-special" premium format. This makes DVD good enough, and Blu-Ray freaking incredible.
You can afford it! Congratulations! Until we all can, though.... We all want equal bonus features if our current tech is capable of carrying them (which it is). We all want to be able to enjoy our films without you lucky, lucky people glaring down your noses at us through your diamond-encrusted monocles (I'm being facetious, but you get the idea). We're all movie fans. Some of us, however, can't watch them on the latest technology without losing things that are more important. If you can't pay your electric bill, you can't enjoy your brand new Blu-Ray player. We're not stupid or inferior. Just broke.
No need to put down DVD, since it IS good enough. It's just not the best.

[Nandor]

Wasn't this topic started in order to have a thread about the Snow White DVD without a DVD/BD debate?

[Escapay]

Wasn't this topic started in order to have a thread about the Snow White DVD without a DVD/BD debate?

Yes. But like half the threads on UD, it gets steered into circular arguments about format preference.

albert

[ajmrowland]

That, and the topic title was screaming for another debate.

[Margos]

Sorry everyone.... I guess I've been contibuting to the misdirection of this post.... Let's get back to the real discussion. Good idea.
So... is there any information yet if the Region 1 version of this will be better than Region 2's?

[Escapay]

So... is there any information yet if the Region 1 version of this will be better than Region 2's?

DisneyDVD.com listed the special features for the DVD-only edition:

• * All-New Digital Restoration With Enhanced Picture And Sound
  * All-New Music Video -- Performed By SONNY WITH A CHANCE's Tiffany Thornton
  * Dopey's Wild Mine Ride -- Interactive Set-Top Adventure Game
  * "Heigh-Ho" Karaoke Sing-Along
  * "Snow White Returns" -- Newly Discovered Archival Storyboards. Was Walt Planning A Sequel?
  * The One That Started It All -- See How SNOW WHITE Changed The World
  * THE PRINCESS AND THE FROG Sneak Peek
  * Audio Commentary With Walt Disney
  * Deleted Scenes
  * Disney Through The Decades
  * Animation Voice Talent

Which pretty much confirms what's already been known given the R2 versions were already released and Amazon.com already had a scan of the back cover.

albert

[Margos]

Noooooooo.....

Why, Disney? WHY!?

"B-L-U...
You better buy our product!
...R-A-Y...
Why? Because we'll force you!
P-R-O-M-O!"

[2099net]

Yes. And, eventually, I switched to DVD. It wasn't because of aggressive marketing tactics. It was because, eventually, VHS died, and DVD took its place price-wise. This will happen with DVD as well. It will die, and Blu-Ray will then drop in price. But it will not do that until DVD is good and dead, which probably won't be for another year or two.
Until that time, DVD is still the standard format, and Blu-Ray is an "extra-special" premium format. This makes DVD good enough, and Blu-Ray freaking incredible.
You can afford it! Congratulations! Until we all can, though.... We all want equal bonus features if our current tech is capable of carrying them (which it is). We all want to be able to enjoy our films without you lucky, lucky people glaring down your noses at us through your diamond-encrusted monocles (I'm being facetious, but you get the idea). We're all movie fans. Some of us, however, can't watch them on the latest technology without losing things that are more important. If you can't pay your electric bill, you can't enjoy your brand new Blu-Ray player. We're not stupid or inferior. Just broke.
No need to put down DVD, since it IS good enough. It's just not the best.

At the risk of continuing this (and I will get around to Snow White in this post if you stick with me) let me say:

I'm not looking down at anybody who individually chooses not to buy Blu-ray for whatever reason - financial or otherwise. Like I say, I've not bought an amp or surround sound system even though I have a HD TV and a Blu-ray player. I'm sure to lots of people that will seem bizarre - especially as one of the advantages of Blu-ray is uncompressed 7.1 sound. But I have my own reasons and logic for doing so.

However, I am becoming increasingly frustrated by people who like to insist the only reason Blu-ray was created was "greed" on behalf of the manufacturers and studios, and just because they don't want Blu-ray its release was "too soon" or "a waste of time" or "not in demand" etc. There was a logical and practical gap in the market for a HD recording/playback media for people with HD displays, and Blu-ray fills that gap. Why do you think Blu-ray and HD DVD had a war for a year or so? It was because each format wanted to address the same gap in the marketplace and get a foot-in now, as the gap grows bigger and bigger each year.

The constant myth that everyone will "have" to rebuy their movies also annoys me - nobody will "have" to do any such thing, just as nobody "has" to upgrade to a new DVD should a new DVD be released if they only have DVD players and equipment.

Of course profit comes into the release of Blu-ray - but it came into the release of VHS and DVD too. It comes into the release of something as insignificant as a new flavour of soda! But I still dispute and will always dispute the only reason Blu-ray exists is "greed". Displays and viewing habits have changed since DVD was introduced. Its obvious the market can support Blu-ray, so its therefore obvious Blu-ray exists.

Now with all due respect, the justification for creating and releasing Blu-ray now is totally different than Disney (and other studios to a lesser extent) withholding extras from their DVD releases, which is not what angered me nor what I responded to.

I have no problems what-so-ever with people complaining about this practice and I have often said on this forum that it is lame for studios to do this (unless of course the Blu-ray holds supplements which could only be done on Blu-ray which often isn't the case).

I've got the UK Snow White now (it was released later than the US and most of the rest of Europe) and I can say from a quick skim through the bonus features everything on the Hyperion Studios tour could be done on a DVD. The navigation method may have had to change (perhaps being a simple text menu, just like the index page on the Blu-ray). But in all honesty, the Blu-ray navigation isn't special and when DVD has been able to support such features as Infinifilm, The Nightmare On Elm Street Bonus Disc and even Disney's own Atlantis Collectors Edition and other innovative navigation methods I don't think a radical change would be necessary.

If disc space was an issue, they could have easily dropped the shorts without too many complaints I would imagine being as the majority of Bonus Feature junkies will most likely already own one or more of them on other DVDs.

So yes, I 100% agree Disney were lame to withhold the content. I also agree from the sounds of it, Disney should just have released Snow White as a single disc on DVD - it sounds like everything would fit on one disc.

In some respects I feelit would be easier for Disney to have done this - with the heavy discounting on the Blu-ray combo sets as well as the fact each includes a DVD it would hopefully have stopped confusion and kept more people happy than the duel release that they have opted for. I know everywhere is different, but even now, weeks after its release the combo pack on Amazon is only $1.50 more than the upcoming 2 Disc DVD. At least then everyone would pay the same and perhaps people like you would get some comfort knowing that when the time came, you would have access to all the content on Blu-ray without having to rebuy the film.

It's easy to blame Disney and while the motivation for withholding content is ultimately financial and yes, Disney (and other studios) do have a major interest in people moving from DVD to Blu-ray (its always easier and cheaper to support only one format than two) don't forget that what we are seeing with Blu-ray is basically the pattern Disney and other studios followed with DVD.

When DVD was new, people needed not only to entice people to jump to the format, but the format was generally taken-up by enthusiasts and early-adaptors. Specifically, the Laserdisc crowed soon moved to DVD. As a result lots of LD ports and discs with extensive new supplements were created. As DVD became more and more mainstream, this practice tended to end - its especially noticeable with Disney.

Disney is aware of their majority audience on DVD and sadly, it doesn't include enthusiasts in any major role. Look at the print run for their Walt Disney Treasures for example. Look at how new Animated Classics released on DVD went from 2 disc collectors editions to optional 2 disc or 1 disc editions to recently (mainly) single disc releases. Look at how the Vault Disney collection went from 2 discs to 1 disc before dying out. Look how (Sleeping Beauty and Aladdin aside) the quality of the Platinum Edition DVDs has slowly decreased since Snow White was released. Look at how fast play was introduced so parents could use the DVDs as "babysitters".

Its a shame, but its true that as something becomes more mainstream, its often dumbed down. And that happened to DVD.

I'm pretty sure Disney has done their research and it shows something like 80% of Snow White's DVD purchases will be perfectly happy with what they get - look, they get a new pop-song by a Disney channel star! They get a "making of" and look, they can see "The Princess and the Frog". More than enough to keep the average DVD buyer who has only a passing interest in the film happy. Disney may just shrug their shoulders at the remaining 20% or so but hopes/expects them to slowly move over to Blu-ray. The existence of Blu-ray may have persuaded them not to care so much about that other 20% (or whatever) as much as if DVD was the only viable format, but I doubt Snow White 2009 on DVD would have been as impressive as Snow White on DVD 2001 regardless (after all, most of the new additions to Disney re-releases are somewhat promotional these days - Sleeping Beauty's Castle, Haunted Mansion Halloween Makeover, Monsters Inc Hide and Seek at Disneyworld Japan.... there's definitely an agenda at work)

Of course, Disney still can (and does) make wonderful DVD releases and other studios can (and do) do the same. But apart from Warners' excellent Ulitimate Collectors Editions and other classic film releases, the lack of decent fully-rounded DVD releases for older-films especially has noticeably declined year-after-year since the early 2000s.

Even lots of new Disney films while having Blu-ray exclusives don't really have anything better than older Disney DVDs. Meet the Robinsons had an extra deleted scene or two and a shooting BDJava game. Bolt has an image gallery and another BDJava game. Race to Witch Mountain has a short 8 minute featurette on the previous films and their link to the new film. The Nightmare Before Xmas re-release only had a 30 second (!) introduction by Tim Burton!

Yes, they have more, but nothing earth shattering and one suspects films like Race to Witch Mountain, Meet the Robinsons, Enchanted etc would have automatically come with loaded 2 disc DVD sets had they been released in the early 2000s - discs which would supplement wise have put even their current Blu-ray releases to shame.

I've no doubt in my mind that once/if* Blu-ray becomes mainstream and bought primarily by people who just want to watch the movie and don't care about commentaries, deleted scenes or hour long documentries, the same decline will happen to it. LD never really declined because it never became mainstream.

* I say If because even though I think Blu-ray has an extended future - after all LD survived 20 years - I don't think its possible for it to ever get the same penetration DVD did. DVD was just the right product at the right time. Blu-ray may never take over 60% of the movie audience - but that's OK, there's more options for people today than there was when DVD was launched.

[Margos]

I don't know, it just seems to me that comments like: "[DVD is] not good enough anymore," kind of seemed a little, you know, overly superior and snobbish. But yeah, I don't see why the two media can't co-exist (equally!) without anyone fighting about it.
Oh, and your summary at the bottom of how equal Blu and DVD releases have been fails to include probably the biggest slap in the face, which is coming next week. Basically, if you want to learn anything at all about how and why they made "Up," you have to buy the Blu-Ray, because they can't be bothered to put barely any bonus features on DVDs anymore!

[2099net]

I don't know, it just seems to me that comments like: "[DVD is] not good enough anymore," kind of seemed a little, you know, overly superior and snobbish. But yeah, I don't see why the two media can't co-exist (equally!) without anyone fighting about it.

But if you look at it dispassionately and scientifically its not "Good Enough". DVD when it was developed was made to get 100% out of 100% of displays. It's no longer true. Therefore, as a visual recording, its not good enough because it doesn't get 100% out of 100% of the displays available today. As I said above, if networks film in HD, transmit in HD but couldn't resale in HD, how would DVD be "good enough"?

Objectively, yes anyone is free to make their own value judgement about Blu-ray, just as they can about cell phones, video game systems, TVs or anything else. I have no problems with people who don't think the value/advantage ratio of Blu-ray is not a benefit to them.

Oh, and your summary at the bottom of how equal Blu and DVD releases have been fails to include probably the biggest slap in the face, which is coming next week. Basically, if you want to learn anything at all about how and why they made "Up," you have to buy the Blu-Ray, because they can't be bothered to put barely any bonus features on DVDs anymore!

But I would suggest Disney aren't just doing this to promote blu-ray (but that is an issue obviously, only a fool would say otherwise) but because sales have backed them up. Remember the Cars single disc release? I wouldn't be surprised if that sold more copies than the single and triple disc Wall-E releases combined. If you have sales figures like that staring you in the face, then its not hard to see why such a decision may have been reached.

Even if not, I bet the single disc Cars sold more than the single disc Wall-E and probably indicates it made more profit for Disney.

Sadly, that's the way DVD has gone. Look at films over the last three years. Using Box Office Mojo I'll take the top five films from the last five years:

2009:
* Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (single/double disc)
* Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince (single/double disc, wide/full screen)
* Up ( single/double disc)
* The Hangover (single/double disc, rated/unrated)
* Star Trek (single/double disc)

2008:
* The Dark Knight (single/double disc, wide/full)
* Iron Man (single/double disc)
* Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (single/double disc)
* Hancock (single/double disc, rated/unrated)
* Wall-E (single/triple disc)

2007:
* Spider-Man 3 (single/double disc - possibly wide/full screen)
* Shrek the Third (wide/full screen)
* Transformers (single/double disc)
* Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End (single/double disc)
* Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (single/double disc, wide/full screen)

2006:
* Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (single/double disc)
* Night at the Museum (single/double disc, wide/full screen)
* Cars (single disc)
* X-Men: The Last Stand (single/double disc)
* The Da Vinci Code (double disc, wide/full)

2005:
* Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (double disc, wide/full screen)
* Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe (double disc, wide/full)
* Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (single/double disc, wide/full screen)
* War of the Worlds (single/double disc, wide/full screen)
* King Kong (single/double disc, wide/full screen)

Out of 25 releases, by my count only three of them come as double disc sets only. And all three are in 2006 or 2007. All the others have single and double disc releases - and in such cases, its normally the single disc release that sells more than the double disc release - some times many times more.

Not living in the US I can't say for sure, but I would suspect some single disc full screen releases sell more than double disc widescreen releases. If that's true, you can probably see how the format has "dumbed down" with the masses in the eyes of the resellers and studios.

We all know most Disney multi-disc sets these days include a digital copy. But what about the Pirates franchise? I'm sure most people here will agree the double disc set of "At World's End" was a disappointment compared to the previous two double disc releases.

The Dark Knight (even on Blu-ray with its focus points) doesn't really have an in-depth making of. The Harry Potter films have never really gone for extensive behind the scenes reveals (through choice which I can respect), but the Order of the Phoenix DVD was especially poor IMO.

Of course there's still good 2 disc sets up there - Iron Man, Indy, Star Wars, Transformers... but critically customers were expected to pay extra for these. The days of automatic 2 disc sets for big-name films without a premium price have been long gone.

You may disagree, but I don't think Blu-ray had any affect on this policy. After all, with Iron Man 90%+ of the Blu-ray's content is available on the (more expensive) 2 disc DVD. What isn't on their (IIRC) isn't possible on DVD. Revenge of the Sith has never had a Blu-ray release, but you were still expected to pay more for the 2 disc set.

I do agree that now studios are probably looking at the split between those who did pay extra for the 2 disc releases on DVD and who now have Blu-ray players - because I suspect there's a significant cross-over. So yes, Blu-ray may be accelerating the split between vanilla/not-so-special DVDs and Deluxe 2 Disc DVD releases, but I do think its something which was gradually happening over time, and would continue to happen regardless.

Ever since Snow White Platinum Edition 2001 was released on DVD, bar a couple of blips the platinum line has decreased in quality... documentaries have become shorter, more set-top games have been added, more emphasis has been placed on Disney Channel "Stars" music videos, trailers have sometimes been omitted, galleries have generally held less content... Even one of those short-term rises in quality (Sleeping Beauty) was mostly content recycled from the previous superb Special Edition (when was the last time you could label a Disney Special Edition as "superb"?)

Now, Snow White 2009 has clearly put its foot in the sand and drawn a line. While its two discs, its basically the equivalent to a cheaper single disc in the list above. It has everything I suspect Disney Marketing have found to be important to the majority of their customers - a music video, deleted scenes, a game and some behind the scenes material which won't overstay its welcome to a mildly interested viewer. Its also clear I think that the Blu-ray is the equivalent of the 2 disc releases on the list above. It has more in-depth content, for a pricing premium.

Is this fair? - well, no because as you say not everyone has Blu-ray who is interested in seeing the supplements. But sadly, I think its inevitable - its more efficient from a production and reselling point of view to try and cut down on variations of each title, and I do think more and more Blu-ray will be the "deluxe" release. Believe me, I don't take any pleasure in typing this but I do think this is the future. After all, if the studios thought there was enough demand for 2 disc feature-packed DVDs to make their release viable, you can be sure they would still release them. At the end of the day, they still want your money.

One way to show them that there is still demand is to complain! Tell them that after being burned once you will no-longer buy one of their DVDs unless it has sufficient value for you to be satisfied. Considering the absolutely massive penetration of DVD, I would still expect a proper 2 disc release to be as profitable today as a 2 disc release in 2001-2004 just before DVD took off big-time. So if enough people complain to Disney, they can probably change Disney's mind.

I suspect Disney will have to backtrack - they've made a logical choice, but made it much too soon. I would expect a well co-ordinated backlash to stop anything like this from happening again for another 2-3 years. But who knows? [shrugs]. They may genuinely not care (while at the same time whining in conference calls about home video sales revenue going down)

I'm somewhat perplexed that they could do this to the DVD while at the same time offering multiple-variations of Collector's Sets with additional "gubbins". It seems these would split and fragment the market more than a 2 disc release (with Blu-ray) and a proper 2 disc DVD release.

[Margos]

Ok. Sure. Makes sense.
Can we be done discussing this now?
Quick summary:
I am not ready for Blu-Ray, for financial reasons more than ideological ones. You think Blu is the greatest thing ever, but understand that not everyone is cool enough for it. You also feel that it's OK to skip on DVD content, if the market dictates it to be so, but still feel that it sucks that it has to be that way. At least, that's the gist of what I got, I'll admit to just having skimmed your last post. If I'm wrong, correct me.
But, I'm kind of sick of it. There's no point in arguing if neither side is learning anything.

[2099net]

You also feel that it's OK to skip on DVD content, if the market dictates it to be so, but still feel that it sucks that it has to be that way. At least, that's the gist of what I got, I'll admit to just having skimmed your last post. If I'm wrong, correct me.

Actually, that sums it up pretty well, and in summing it up I was pretty surprised by my feelings. But I believe that's right. It all depends on what you call OK - but yes, if Disney can justify single disc/double disc releases and the differences between the two in sales numbers and profits then yes, I'm OK with it.

I don't think anyone should be able to force a company to release something which will most likely result in them generating less profit as a result (unless of course there is a public safety reason).

But going back to Snow White - they had the content already (off the old release or new Blu-ray) - even stuff like the galleries could be easily ported from old DVD to new (I would assume) despite them probably being complex to program in the first place. So I'm not OK with content being held back off the Snow White DVD when it has no lower price point advantage.

[BelleGirl]

So... is there any information yet if the Region 1 version of this will be better than Region 2's?

DisneyDVD.com listed the special features for the DVD-only edition:

• * All-New Digital Restoration With Enhanced Picture And Sound
  * All-New Music Video -- Performed By SONNY WITH A CHANCE's Tiffany Thornton
  * Dopey's Wild Mine Ride -- Interactive Set-Top Adventure Game
  * "Heigh-Ho" Karaoke Sing-Along
  * "Snow White Returns" -- Newly Discovered Archival Storyboards. Was Walt Planning A Sequel?
  * The One That Started It All -- See How SNOW WHITE Changed The World
  * THE PRINCESS AND THE FROG Sneak Peek
  * Audio Commentary With Walt Disney
  * Deleted Scenes
  * Disney Through The Decades
  * Animation Voice Talent

Which pretty much confirms what's already been known given the R2 versions were already released and Amazon.com already had a scan of the back cover.

albert

Exactly the same content as the region 2 version!

[miklc]

I came home from college to a loverly supuirse, my Snow White DVD whoo I feel so lucky seeing as it's not out till Monday! This is the film I now techincally own the most copies of strangely, I still have my old VHS, my 2001 DVD, my brand new DVD and my brand new Blu-Ray which also has an extra copy of the DVD Oh well, it's a classic what can I say. I won't get a chance to watch it tonight, but possibly tomorrow. I'm exicted for the Snow White Returns feature, I did watch The Princess and the Frog Sneak Peek which naturally I love but it was nothing I hadn't already seen. Anyhow has anyone else go their copy yet? If so what do think of the DVD overall, I have to say for some reason I LOVE the back cover!

[ajmrowland]

2099net, I say you do bring up some wonderful points. There's just a tidbit or two I want to give 2 cents on.

1. The Hyperion Studios Tour on the Snow White blu-ray has a lot of video features, but, by checking the Display feature on my PS3, I've discovered that they're all programmed into the feature as interactive elements. Sorta like the clips that you might find on a set top game. I (dont) wonder if this was any factor in all of them being exclusive. Scratch that, actually.

2. Cars was released in both Widescreen and Fullscreen. You forgot to mention that.

3. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire DVD/HD DVD both have extensive Behind-the-scenes features in addition to the games. The HD DVD has value, because the pip commentary generally covers what the DVD did not. Order of the Pheonix's Focus Points are brief, but they're many and detailed.