Disney Dark Age

[Class316]

1923-1928 Starting Period
1928-1942 The First Golden Age
1942-1949 War Period
1950-1967 The Second Golden Age
1967-1989 The Dark Age
1989-2005 The Disney Renaissance (3rd Golden Age)
2005-2??? The 2nd Dark Age (just my prediction, could be wrong)

A good list, but the "Renaissance" period is not till 2005. I'd say no more than 1995.

[DreamerQ18]

Well, I personally love the so called "Dark Ages" (from the 80s'). I believe that the Disney "Dark Ages" include Lilo and Stitich and on.

Let's not also forget that if you include inflation the "biggest flop" (The Black Cauldron) may not really be the biggest flop.

Oh My gosh I can't believe I forgot about Lilo and Stitch that is one of my favorite Disney movies and even I said I thought Disney entered the Dark Age after Tarzan where the movies were lacking something and I still stand by statmenet howevere Major Porops for Lilo and Stitch that movies rocked and I know it was pretty popular.

[slash]

Here is my list of Disney Ages:

1923-1928 Starting Period
1928-1942 The First Golden Age
1942-1949 War Period
1950-1967 The Second Golden Age
1967-1989 The Dark Age
1989-2005 The Disney Renaissance (3rd Golden Age)
2005-2??? The 2nd Dark Age (just my prediction, could be wrong)

I would generally agree with that list. But I would definately not be afraid to label 1942-1949 as a Dark Age. I know there was a war and it was a dark time for humanity in general, but this doesn't mean the movies were terrible and it wasn't a dark time for Disney classics.

Regarding the 3rd Golden Age, I would say it was in a quick fall after the Lion King and officially ended at latest in 1999 with Tarzan. I'm not saying that everything after 1999 was not good or enjoyable, just like everything from 1967-1989 is also rather enjoyable, they just aren't up to Disney par and are missing major elements of the Disney Magic.

Well, here is my timeline:

Here is my list of Disney Ages:

1923-1928 Starting Period
1928-1942 A Golden Age
1942-1949 The Darkest Age... So Far
1950-1967 The Getting Golden But not as good as the first one Age
1967-1989 The Pretty Dark but better than WWII Age
1989-1999 The Really Gold Age
1999-? Pretty much dark... and definately getting darker Age

[mvealf]

1950-1967 The Getting Golden But not as good as the first one Age

Of course one could argue that Sleeping Beauty is the crowning jewel, far surpassing Snow White and the others, both artisticly and technically speaking.

[MickeyMousePal]

disneychris04 wrote:

Here is my list of Disney Ages:

1923-1928 Starting Period
1928-1942 The First Golden Age
1942-1949 War Period
1950-1967 The Second Golden Age
1967-1989 The Dark Age
1989-2005 The Disney Renaissance (3rd Golden Age)
2005-2??? The 2nd Dark Age (just my prediction, could be wrong)

Here's my timeline

1923-1928 Starting Period
1928-1942 The First Golden Age
1942-1949 War Period
1950-1967 The Second Golden Age
1967-1989 The Dark Age
1989-1999 The Disney Renaissance (3rd Golden Age)
1999-2005 The 2nd Dark Age

The only reason why the War Period became weak is because the War mess up the economy. Walt Disney made movies segments because it was cheaper at the time. The Dark Age came because of Walt Disney death and without Walt Disney idea's Disney went down. Most Disney films during the Dark Age were animal’s films with not that many humans as the main character. The 2nd Dark Age happen because The Disney Company put more imagination and money to Pixar films instead of 2D animation films. The 3rd Golden Age was powerful not because of Michael Einser but, because of the producers and directors came up with great ideas and musical songs.
I really don't consider Lilo and Stitch or Brother Bear in the 2nd Dark Age but I guess I have to consider then Dark films.

[DisneyVillains]

Here's my timeline

1923-1928 Starting Period
1928-1942 The First Golden Age
1942-1949 War Period
1950-1967 The Second Golden Age
1967-1989 The Dark Age
1989-1999 The Disney Renaissance (3rd Golden Age)
1999-2005 The 2nd Dark Age

I really don't consider Lilo and Stitch or Brother Bear in the 2nd Dark Age but I guess I have to consider then Dark films

I absolutely agree with your timeline MickeyMouse Pal. Personally, Pocahontas, Huncback, Hercules, Mulan, and Tarzan are among my favorite Disney films. In my opinion, they are just as good as the other films earlier in the decade (of course TLM is at the top ). The animation was great and they had some great music.

Also, I agree about the Brother Bear and Lilo and Stich remarks. both are great films, which I would not consider in the "Dark Age." The recent films are tough to label because they were attempting to go in different direction and did not succeed (to a point). I found an interesting quote from my Disney calendar about the staff shirts of Atlantis that said, "Atlantis, fewer songs and more explosions." It was ashame that the Disney directors felt that they had to go in this direction to gain more of an audience when they had the right formula, in my opinion, in the films of 1989-1998 all along.

I actaully don't think that they are in that much of a Dar Age right now actually. Brother Bear and Home on the Range were beginning to start a great trend in films. Hopefully the return of 2-D is not too far off...

[Kram Nebuer]

I actaully don't think that they are in that much of a Dar Age right now actually. Brother Bear and Home on the Range were beginning to start a great trend in films. Hopefully the return of 2-D is not too far off...

You're right DisneyVillains. Though I've never seen HOTR nor BB, I know HOTR was a musical and weren't musicals the ones that started these so called "Golden Ages"?

I don't think the dawn of the new millenium and the turn of the century was a dark age for Disney. Emperor's New Groove, Atlantis, Lilo and Stitch, and Treasure Planet were all great movies. They weren't the Fairy Tales of the 50's nor the Innovations of the 30's, but they were darn good movies with great plots, voice acting, animation, backgrounds, and humor. I hate it when society or critics don't respond well to movies that they are suddenly branded with a horrible movie label. Too much of joining the bandwagon...I remember reading in a Disney biography that Fantasia (or one of the classics?) was a big fat FLOP, but when it was rereleased it did much better and now is considered a true classic. Maybe there's hope for Atlantis, ENG, and TP that in the future they'll be better appreciated.

[AwallaceUNC]

You're right DisneyVillains. Though I've never seen HOTR nor BB, I know HOTR was a musical and weren't musicals the ones that started these so called "Golden Ages"?

Well, HOTR isn't exactly a musical, but it's the closest thing to a musical that we've gotten since Mulan.

MMP, I generally agree with your time line as well (and so does Roy Disney). However, I think that 1995-1999 falls in a bit of a gray area, because it wasn't really a dark age yet, but certainly didn't compare to the earlier parts.

And in defining golden ages and dark ages, you also have to decide if you're basing that on artistic merit (subjective, though with some consensus) or profit (objective). I think that people generally refer to the latter, but sometimes include the former.

-Aaron

[DreamerQ18]

I dont know to me the golden age is when everything in the movie is perfect (every aspect) the animiation,the music, the characters, the plot there is just something so magical about the movies and persoanlly when a movie has all the qualities I think this is what makes it a box office hit that and promotions and word of mouth. Movies that have something for everyone.

[slash]

I personally do consider Brother Bear and Lilo & Stitch part of the Dark Age. Lilo & Stitch didn't appeal to me and even though I loved Brother Bear, it was missing some major elements. The thing with Disney is that they never produce a bad classic. The difference between their Gold Age and Dark Age is the difference between Magic and a really good animation. The stuff they are producing now, just like the stuff they produced in the 70's and early 80's (Rescuers, Black Cauldron, Winnie the Pooh, Great Mouse Detective....), are great animations that I enjoy watching over and over. However, these classics are missing those elements that you find in Little Mermaid, Beaty and the Beast, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Bambi, etc.

[Mr. Toad]

One problem about the dark age time periods being listed by MMP is they are too black and white. It seems to be either great or terrible with no in between.

Really, after Lion King until Atlantis it was neither. Just a bunch of decent movies. Not great, but certainly not terrible either. I think there are some other periods like that too, if we look hard at it.

[TheZue]

At least the Disney dark ages aren't that bad. I think most people, disney fans or not, have some favorites that come out of these "bad periods". Personally I love Robin Hood, but lots of people view it as a bad quality disney.

[Kram Nebuer]

I was just pondering about the "Golden Age" and realized that these were the times of the Fairy tale features. Maybe these fairy tales have some sort of psycological connection with humans, especially Americans in general. They were first stories we heard as children and know the plots by heart. The magic of these tales probably combined with the magic of Disney to make them the classics of The Golden Age.

With the so called "Dark Age" features, they are more of stories adapted from modern/classic novels or totally original new stories and things we did not remember as a child nor were exposed to as strongly as the fairy tales were. I only knew about Robin Hood and 101 Dalmations from the Disney movies before I learned they were real books. Tarzan, Treasure Planet, Hercules, Hunchback, Oliver and Company(Oliver Twist), etc. were also real novels/mythology that weren't usually read to children. Maybe there really is some type of Fairy-tale-child-psycology connection with the Golden Age features.

Well, of course, this is all just my observation and now my head hurts for thinking too hard . Any other opinions or views about this connection?

[TheZue]

You know, I think the fairy tale idea fits!

My personal example is Tarzan. One of the first live action movies I remember seeing was Tarzan: the legend of Greystoke or whatever it was called. I loved Tarzan and got that sort of emotional response to it. My mom has always been a huge fan of camelot and loves Sword in the Stone. The other one I love is Lady and the Tramp because I grew up with a Cocker Spaniel so that always makes me think of Dusty and is partially why I love that movie.

The fairy tales may not be everyones favorites kiddy stories, but enough people know them, then get that familiar attachment to the cartoon, that they then get considered wide spread favorites.

[Maerj]

I think that you nailed it on the head, really. I personally don't buy into the whole Dark Age idea as you all probably know, but I can see your explanation as the reason so many people equate these periods of time as Dark Ages. They want the fairy tales, plain and simple. I've seen people saying it right here on this message board. Thanks Kram!

[slash]

I truly doubt it has anything to do with fairy tales. I loved Aladdin, Lion King, and Beauty and the Beast and never heard any fairy tales resembling them before. The only fairy tale I remember reading was Little Mermaid but I don't think that was the reason for me loving it either. I just think the Golden Age featuers have been so well developed (in terms of music, atmosphere, characters, love, story, villain, flow) that it is hard not to love these features. I think the main thing is that the ones from the poor periods are just lacking certain elements. For example, when was the last Disney animation where the protagonist breaks out and starts singing. Such scenes can be found throughout the best Disney classics and are very important because they let you feel what the main protagonist is feeling and what he is looking for. We become attached to them. Remember the magic carpet ride in Aladdin with Jasmin? Remember the boat ride in the Little Mermaid and the beautiful song that accompanied it? Remember the dance hall scene in Beauty and the Beast? Those scenes make the characters more than just two dimensional drawings and bring them to life. Anyways, it's not only songs that make the difference. The Golden classics have special touches everywhere that all add up and change them from 2d cartoons into a magical experience.

[yoda_four]

I think the fairy tale connection only really applies in you were raised in such an environment. I never really took to stories such as Cinderella, Arabian Nights, or Hunchback. I think, personally, one of the reasons the golden classics worked so well was because we recognized some certain thing in each one that made it familiar, yet the stories themselves are old enough not to necessarily know the original version. Almost like the theory that Mickey was so appealing because of his shape. He was made of circles, and some people think that humans feel attracted or find circular shapes appealing for some reason. Fairly tales all have something in common: whether it be the happy end or magical feeling, Walt always made the story his own and each golden classic has that Disney trademark to it. Whatever the reason, some movies were better done than others, in the story, animation, characters, etc.

As for the "ages". I don't think you can really put the label of "dark age" on a number of movies, because there's always an exception to the rule. Let's take it from 1995. I would say the 3rd golden age finished after TLK. From then on the films were good but not the same as the fab four. So, Pocahontas, Hunchback, Hercules, Mulan, and Tarzan would be labelled to me as a Silver age. Even Tarzan there may be out of place.

As for the rest, 2000 really started what I would call "the age of imagination/discovery". It started off with a new Fantasia, then ENG somethign totally different from the rest. Atlantis really tryed to do what Black Cauldron never achieved. Then, Treasure Planet, almost same idea plus a update of the old live-action film. Lilo & Stitch got the same umph as the earlier silvers and was a different kind of movie than the others. Brother Bear tryed it's best but was about the same quality as Hercules. Home on the Range was tightly edited but was missing several things to be a golden classics. There you go: Atlantis was probably the lowest of them all, but Lilo porobably shouldn't be here, it's the exception to the rule.

As for the 80's, it can't really be referred to as an age. More like "age of renewal". It saw the films quality go lower and lower after Walt and Roy's deaths. Once the new management came in, the worst of ALL Disney films, The Black Cauldron, was finishing up and here was nothing they could do to fix it. From then on, the movies crwaled up back to perfection, with Oliver, Basil, and eventually Ariel. I would probably put Aristocats with the 2nd Golden Age and then the films between it and BC in a Bronze age.

To compare the golden ages..... The first 4 films were truly experimental and set the bar for Disney. Just to keep his studio, Walt had to bring something good back out which became Cinderella. During the next few years, after everything was back on course, he left the animation department continue his legacy while he started live-action films so that he could build Disneyland. After Disneyland, Walt moved on to EPCOT. He left animation and so the 2nd Golden age became somewhat the same thing over and over, using the same forumla of success. The obvious exception to the rule for this decade would be Alice.

The 3rd Golden Age was truly a renaissance for Disney. The fab four weren't experimental like the 1st goldens or same old, same old as the 2nds. The films were different in and among themselves although they kept a pretty much same fomurla. I dont' know what else to say about them.

I don't really knwo what to say about the war films. Disney was forced to make the anthologies just to keep his studio barely alive. Not so much a dark age, but more of a i dont' know age. I guess dark age suffices.

So as for my list:

Experimental Golden Age: Snow White, Pinocchio, Fantasia, Dumbo (E2R), Bambi
Dark Age: Saludos Amigos, The Three Caballeros, Make Music Mine, Fun and Fancy Free, Melody Time, The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad
Standard Golden Age: Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland (E2R), Peter Pan, Lady and the Tramp, Sleeping Beauty, 101 Dalmatians, The Sword in the Stone (E2R), The Jungle Book, The Aristocats.
Bronze Age: Robin Hood, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, The Rescuers, The Fox and the Hound
Age of Renewal: The Black Cauldron, The Great Mouse Detective, Oliver and Company
A Whole New Disney - The 3rd Golden Age: The Little Mermaid, The Rescuers Down Under (E2R), Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, The Lion King
Silver Age - Ccccchanges at Disney: Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules, Mulan, Tarzan
Age of Imagination and Discovery - Trying a new formula: Fantasia 2000, The Emperor's New Groove, Atlantis: The Lost Empire, Lilo & Stitch, Treasure Planet, Brother Bear, Home on the Range.

*E2R=Exception to the rule

[DreamerQ18]

So as for my list:

Experimental Golden Age: Snow White, Pinocchio, Fantasia, Bambi
Dark Age: Saludos Amigos, The Three Caballeros, Make Music Mine, Fun and Fancy Free, Melody Time, The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad
Standard Golden Age: Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland (E2R), Peter Pan, Lady and the Tramp, Sleeping Beauty, 101 Dalmatians, The Sword in the Stone (E2R), The Jungle Book, The Aristocats.
Bronze Age: Robin Hood, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, The Rescuers, The Fox and the Hound
Age of Renewal: The Black Cauldron, The Great Mouse Detective, Oliver and Company
A Whole New Disney - The 3rd Golden Age: The Little Mermaid, The Rescuers Down Under (E2R), Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King
Silver Age - Ccccchanges at Disney: Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules, Mulan, Tarzan
Age of Imagination and Discovery - Trying a new formula: Fantasia 2000, The Emperor's New Groove, Atlantis: The Lost Empire, Lilo & Stitch, Treasure Planet, Brother Bear, Home on the Range.

*E2R=Exception to the rule

I have to say considering we have been disscussing this topic all week this timeline of Disney Animation makes the most sensce to me very well thought out nd not really putting any of the eras down casue regardless the movies have not all been that bad and it always ends up touching somones heart which is one of the things Disney movies seem to aim toward me personally I am trying not to complain it could be worse. right?

[yoda_four]

So as for my list:

Experimental Golden Age: Snow White, Pinocchio, Fantasia, Bambi
Dark Age: Saludos Amigos, The Three Caballeros, Make Music Mine, Fun and Fancy Free, Melody Time, The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad
Standard Golden Age: Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland (E2R), Peter Pan, Lady and the Tramp, Sleeping Beauty, 101 Dalmatians, The Sword in the Stone (E2R), The Jungle Book, The Aristocats.
Bronze Age: Robin Hood, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, The Rescuers, The Fox and the Hound
Age of Renewal: The Black Cauldron, The Great Mouse Detective, Oliver and Company
A Whole New Disney - The 3rd Golden Age: The Little Mermaid, The Rescuers Down Under (E2R), Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King
Silver Age - Ccccchanges at Disney: Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules, Mulan, Tarzan
Age of Imagination and Discovery - Trying a new formula: Fantasia 2000, The Emperor's New Groove, Atlantis: The Lost Empire, Lilo & Stitch, Treasure Planet, Brother Bear, Home on the Range.

*E2R=Exception to the rule

I have to say considering we have been disscussing this topic all week this timeline of Disney Animation makes the most sensce to me very well thought out nd not really putting any of the eras down casue regardless the movies have not all been that bad and it always ends up touching somones heart which is one of the things Disney movies seem to aim toward me personally I am trying not to complain it could be worse. right?

O thanks. You basically sumed up my previous post: I tryed to to put down any of the films because even the worst have something Disneyish in them, and Dark age isn't the proper term for Disney films. BTW, I forgot to put Dumbo in that list.

[Kram Nebuer]

In the words of my sister...

Not only did you forget Dumbo, but you also forgot ALADDIN, my favorite movie!

I agree with your classifications as they don't put down the hard work of the animators as the title "Dark Age" does.