Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characters

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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by JeanGreyForever »

blackcauldron85 wrote:^ That's a good point. I think there are a lot of "wow, I can't believe it took this long" moments, whether it's John Henry, Dr. Sweet, & Tiana being the first main Black characters, to I guess LeFou being the first main gay character (?)* in 2017, and the interracial kiss that you mentioned (that I wasn't aware about)...It's kind of surprising that it's taken until the 21st Century to be more inclusive. But of course better late than never.

*I know with Good Luck, Charlie and maybe Finding Dory and I know you've mentioned Andi Mack, and Love, Simon, & HSM:TM:TS they're just cracking the surface of having gay characters, so hopefully we'll have more.

I just like the idea of more people being represented. It's a different level, but I remember when B&tB came out when I was 6- I was so happy to have a princess with brown hair. And that's just hair color. So I think it's important to see people like each of us on the screen...
There are two interracial couples in the live-action BATB (both feature a Black woman and a white man) but I don't remember if both couples kiss.

Who is the gay couple in Finding Dory? I can't seem to remember. I still wish we had an Andi Mack spinoff for Cyrus and TJ.

I know how important Belle was for so many brunette girls out there and I think Paige O'Hara has mentioned this a lot as well. Jasmine and Pocahontas were groundbreaking in their own ways and even Esmeralda I remember reading had a lot of universal appeal. Hispanic girls felt Esmeralda looked like them and had a name that was Hispanic so they considered her one of theirs. Black girls saw her coloring as the darkest Disney princess at the time and with her wavy, black hair thought she looked like them. Indian girls saw her coloring and hair alongside the gold jewelry and bright red dress and thought she was Indian (which is probably the most accurate since the Romani came from North India). And obviously Romani girls had a Romani princess of their own although to be honest, I've never really heard much from them.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by blackcauldron85 »

^ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ouple.html (it's why I said "maybe").

Since you brought up Jas, Poca, + Esme, I wonder if representation played a part in the Renaissance'a popularity (can't forget Mulan of course!).
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by DC Fan »

Still waiting for an answer to these questions:

Would these people demand that the same happens when the shows air in countries were there aren´t black people/actors? Or what about when ANY movie/series air dubbed on another country?
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by JeanGreyForever »

DC Fan wrote:Still waiting for an answer to these questions:

Would these people demand that the same happens when the shows air in countries were there aren´t black people/actors? Or what about when ANY movie/series air dubbed on another country?
This reminds me about the controversy over a high school which was staging The Hunchback of Notre Dame as their musical. And the actress cast for Esmeralda was white and this went viral. There was so much blowback over the fact that Esmeralda was white and I think the school did not have any POC students or actors who could play Esmeralda so they eventually decided to cancel the production altogether.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by Jules »

JeanGreyForever wrote:
DC Fan wrote:Still waiting for an answer to these questions:

Would these people demand that the same happens when the shows air in countries were there aren´t black people/actors? Or what about when ANY movie/series air dubbed on another country?
This reminds me about the controversy over a high school which was staging The Hunchback of Notre Dame as their musical. And the actress cast for Esmeralda was white and this went viral. There was so much blowback over the fact that Esmeralda was white and I think the school did not have any POC students or actors who could play Esmeralda so they eventually decided to cancel the production altogether.
Now THIS case was certainly a mistake and absolute bs. If there weren't any people of colour to play the part then the school should have stuck to their guns and went ahead while explaining the situation. If people had a problem with that then that's their problem.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by Disney's Divinity »

blackcauldron85 wrote:^ That's a good point. I think there are a lot of "wow, I can't believe it took this long" moments, whether it's John Henry, Dr. Sweet, & Tiana being the first main Black characters, to I guess LeFou being the first main gay character (?)* in 2017, and the interracial kiss that you mentioned (that I wasn't aware about)...It's kind of surprising that it's taken until the 21st Century to be more inclusive. But of course better late than never.

*I know with Good Luck, Charlie and maybe Finding Dory and I know you've mentioned Andi Mack, and Love, Simon, & HSM:TM:TS they're just cracking the surface of having gay characters, so hopefully we'll have more.

I just like the idea of more people being represented. It's a different level, but I remember when B&tB came out when I was 6- I was so happy to have a princess with brown hair. And that's just hair color. So I think it's important to see people like each of us on the screen...
I agree, and I'll still be waiting for many years to come to have a gay Disney protagonist... *shrug* I was thinking the other day, I guess because TP&TF was more on my mind because of Splash Mountain being re-themed, but it's sad that Tiana was from the studio's very last hand-drawn film. The first Black princess is a book-end opposite Snow White (which is in itself kind of funny :lol: )... It only took eighty years.

Actually, many people felt the same about Ariel's red hair. Of course, if that link thedisneyspirit posted some months ago turns out to be true, redheaded characters are being substituted by Black characters in general in media now, not simply in Disney's TLM and Peter Pan re-makes.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

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By the way, if people keep pushing this extreme narratives there will be no end.

For instance:

-Let´s talk diversity. Whenever this topic comes up regarding having a Latino actor Hollywood believes that just placing a random one should be enough to check that mark. However, while we Latinos do support each other, there´s nothing remotely similar between Latin countries except the language (and even then each country has their own words for things and most often than not a word used in X country is offensive in Y country). So, just because there´s a Colombian actor on a role doesn´t mean I, as a Puerto Rican, feel represented nor should a Colombian feel represented by a Puerto Rican actor. So, what then? Is Hollywood supposed to cast the same character from an actor of each country and film the movie those many times?

...for instance, in The Flash TV series the character of Vibe/Cisco Ramón is played by a Mexican actor yet the character in the comics is Puerto Rican. Should we demand to change it as well?

-Still with the Latino representation. We all have different skin colors and physical atributes. That means/should mean that a white actor doesn´t represent a mulato person or that a mulato person wouldn´t feel represented by a black person.

-I´m white. 100% white. So much so that when I let people know that my father and his entire family is black their in shock. And that´s because my mother and her entire family is white. I wasn´t born biracial. I´m white. So much so that I currently live in Spain and sometimes I´m even more white that many Spanish people. I used to act. If I were to now decide to do voice acting I will not be allowed to play the role of a biracial character? Who whill deny me that when I was born out of a black father and a white mother?

...BTW, because there´s such a mix in Puerto Rico that´s not a surprise to anyone. I spent time with my father and his family where I was the only white person there and there was no doubt I was part of that family.

You see? There´s no end to this rabbit hole.

PS

Regarding the Esmeralda story let me tell you something. As said, I live in Spain now. Gypsies live in their own. Over 90% of the time they marry within their race and most of them won´t even integrate to Spanish society. If they were to do The Hunchback of Notre Dame in Spain. What are they supposed to do about that?

Similar situation. During Three Kings Day there are parades that go around cities/towns throwing candies/toys towards people/kids. They also have the Three Kings represented there. Baltasar (one of them) is a black character. And, for the most part, what they do to represent him is by doing "black face". And that´s not because Spanish are racists or mean to offend anyone. It´s because there are no black people in the country. It wasn´t until starting the 2000s that people from other countries started to migrate there. And even most Africans that come to the country don´t integrate to the Spanish society. They mind their own business, earning their living how they can and spend their entire time amongst themselves.

...so you see, not everything can be applied to everything. And people need to realize that each country has a different country and their different circumstances.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by JeanGreyForever »

DC Fan wrote:By the way, if people keep pushing this extreme narratives there will be no end.

For instance:

-Let´s talk diversity. Whenever this topic comes up regarding having a Latino actor Hollywood believes that just placing a random one should be enough to check that mark. However, while we Latinos do support each other, there´s nothing remotely similar between Latin countries except the language (and even then each country has their own words for things and most often than not a word used in X country is offensive in Y country). So, just because there´s a Colombian actor on a role doesn´t mean I, as a Puerto Rican, feel represented nor should a Colombian feel represented by a Puerto Rican actor. So, what then? Is Hollywood supposed to cast the same character from an actor of each country and film the movie those many times?

...for instance, in The Flash TV series the character of Vibe/Cisco Ramón is played by a Mexican actor yet the character in the comics is Puerto Rican. Should we demand to change it as well?
And this reminds me of how when Memoirs of a Geisha came out, all the characters were Japanese in the film but the actors were pretty much all Chinese who played them. And there was some controversy over why Japanese actors weren't in the roles. Ironically enough, it was mainly China that was pissed that their own actresses were portraying the Japanese as they considered it an insult.

And Marvel wants to introduce Ms. Marvel who has become their most popular superhero in decades to the big screen. In the comics she's Pakistani-American but the question is will her actress also be Pakistani. Maitreyi Ramakrishnan has been propped up for the role since her new Netflix show came out but she said that she is not Pakistani and the role of Ms. Marvel should only be played by a Pakistani girl.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

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DC Fan wrote:By the way, if people keep pushing this extreme narratives there will be no end.

For instance:

-Let´s talk diversity. Whenever this topic comes up regarding having a Latino actor Hollywood believes that just placing a random one should be enough to check that mark. However, while we Latinos do support each other, there´s nothing remotely similar between Latin countries except the language (and even then each country has their own words for things and most often than not a word used in X country is offensive in Y country). So, just because there´s a Colombian actor on a role doesn´t mean I, as a Puerto Rican, feel represented nor should a Colombian feel represented by a Puerto Rican actor. So, what then? Is Hollywood supposed to cast the same character from an actor of each country and film the movie those many times?

...for instance, in The Flash TV series the character of Vibe/Cisco Ramón is played by a Mexican actor yet the character in the comics is Puerto Rican. Should we demand to change it as well?

-Still with the Latino representation. We all have different skin colors and physical atributes. That means/should mean that a white actor doesn´t represent a mulato person or that a mulato person wouldn´t feel represented by a black person.

-I´m white. 100% white. So much so that when I let people know that my father and his entire family is black their in shock. And that´s because my mother and her entire family is white. I wasn´t born biracial. I´m white. So much so that I currently live in Spain and sometimes I´m even more white that many Spanish people. I used to act. If I were to now decide to do voice acting I will not be allowed to play the role of a biracial character? Who whill deny me that when I was born out of a black father and a white mother?

...BTW, because there´s such a mix in Puerto Rico that´s not a surprise to anyone. I spent time with my father and his family where I was the only white person there and there was no doubt I was part of that family.

You see? There´s no end to this rabbit hole.

PS

Regarding the Esmeralda story let me tell you something. As said, I live in Spain now. Gypsies live in their own. Over 90% of the time they marry within their race and most of them won´t even integrate to Spanish society. If they were to do The Hunchback of Notre Dame in Spain. What are they supposed to do about that?

Similar situation. During Three Kings Day there are parades that go around cities/towns throwing candies/toys towards people/kids. They also have the Three Kings represented there. Baltasar (one of them) is a black character. And, for the most part, what they do to represent him is by doing "black face". And that´s not because Spanish are racists or mean to offend anyone. It´s because there are no black people in the country. It wasn´t until starting the 2000s that people from other countries started to migrate there. And even most Africans that come to the country don´t integrate to the Spanish society. They mind their own business, earning their living how they can and spend their entire time amongst themselves.

...so you see, not everything can be applied to everything. And people need to realize that each country has a different country and their different circumstances.
Yes, all of that is true. Latino culture is very complex and complicated, due to the different history and demographics the land went through. Claiming latinos are only one skin color is pretty racist in itself. There are black latinos, mestizos, whites, asians, it's all about where you've been born instead of the color of your skin. Not saying there isn't racism, but only ignorants of their history would claim "latinos are only brown/white".

As for Spain, that is true as well. Most of Spaniard actors I've seen tend to be white and the few black/roma are very rare/niche or stuck in their own communities. Forcing them to integrate when they don't feel like it by following American standards feels very patronizing, and again, ignorant of the actual context of the country.

See why Honey Lemon is a joke, honestly. There are white, blonde Latinas, but Disney should've tried harder to show her heritage. Either have her mention her real name, have a more noticeable accent, or mention her home life...Whatever. The representation can't be so subtle that many people end up thinking she's a valley girl from California.

It's like latino voices to the white woke don't matter. Unless if it's to rage at white people and illegal immigration, but our other issues are always ignored.

I'd love to see somebody come here and whitesplain the hell out of this.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by JeanGreyForever »

thedisneyspirit wrote: See why Honey Lemon is a joke, honestly. There are white, blonde Latinas, but Disney should've tried harder to show her heritage. Either have her mention her real name, have a more noticeable accent, or mention her home life...Whatever. The representation can't be so subtle that many people end up thinking she's a valley girl from California.
Literally if Disney hadn't confirmed her heritage, no one would ever have known or guessed. And I'm reading posts on Tumblr about how that isn't true and Disney did enough to point out Honey Lemon's heritage in the final film based on when Fred says "mi casa" and says it's French or Italian or something and Honey Lemon is the one to point out that he's wrong. Apparently that was all that was necessary to clue the rest of us in on Honey Lemon's heritage according to Tumblr girls lol and if we didn't realize it, we are the dumb ones. Another person said that if Disney had gotten any deeper into that moment it would have been racist because there would be too much emphasis on Honey Lemon's background and we should focus on her as a person and not her racial identity. :roll:
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by DC Fan »

Thank you for understanding thedisneyspirit. You get it.

This video will give you an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKKCVctGucA

PS1

By the end of my post I meant to say that each country has their own culture.

PS2

Don´t mean to disregard other members.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by Sotiris »

thedisneyspirit wrote:See why Honey Lemon is a joke, honestly. There are white, blonde Latinas, but Disney should've tried harder to show her heritage. Either have her mention her real name, have a more noticeable accent, or mention her home life...Whatever. The representation can't be so subtle that many people end up thinking she's a valley girl from California.
Exactly. I still can't believe Disney tried to convince people she was Latina solely based on the way she pronounced the name "Hiro". :lol: Incindently, Disney pulled the same stunt with Sofia the First too, if you recall. Both times, it blew up in their faces.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by blackcauldron85 »

I'm not trying to put down Genesis Rodriguez, but "Hiro" isn't even pronounced the same each time Honey Lemon says it...

DC Fan, thanks for sharing that video (educational + funny!). I do have a question about your earlier post (and I'm not trying to get all up in your business, so of course only answer if you feel comfortable). You said you weren't born biracial, but your dad is Black and your mom is white...so doesn't that make you biracial?

I am all about wanting to be educated as much as I can about the representation issue, how people are expressing their needs to be seen, etc etc, so I appreciate this discussion a lot.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

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https://www.cartoonbrew.com/artist-righ ... 93802.html

If from this point on even writers have to be the same race as the characters onscreen then I think this is going too far. So, if I were a screenwriter I am now allowed to write only about white people?

Perhaps I misinterpreted the article?
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

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Ridiculous if that's true. I heard of a black woman playwrite who people said couldn't write about male genitalia just because she was a woman. Ridiculous.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

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I'm gonna say I kinda sorta agree with what the writer is saying in the article. Based on the context, maybe they needed to hire an actor of an specific nationality to write about that situation. It's not too dissimilar from how Disney nowadays hires experts on different cultures to write their movies more accurately. So yes, a Vietnamese-American woman could write about a Vietnamese-American character better, and her dissacotiation from both American culture and Vietnamese culture at large. The experience children of immigrants have in the first world varies a lot compared to children who stay and are raised in the third world their parents come from. They're children of two worlds, basically.

However this should not really catch on and expand into "people shouldn't write about characters from other races, or genders". Because then you'll have more white male writers writing only about white guys, or women only writing about white women, and I thought we wanted to avoid that. :lol: Besides, not every woman or person of color wants to be a writer, and to demand them to turn into one feels patronizing and entitled.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

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thedisneyspirit wrote:Besides, not every woman or person of color wants to be a writer, and to demand them to turn into one feels patronizing and entitled.
I don't see how this is an issue. Obviously you'd look for writers who are women and people of color and they do exist believe it or not. No one is saying grab the first women or POC you see off the streets and hold them at gunpoint to write a script. Your sentiment here implies that pretty much 99% of writers are white men and women and people of color either do not have the interest to be writers or they do not have the skill and talent which is grossly incorrect.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by Disney's Divinity »

@Jules: Yeah, that's just stupid. There's being sensitive to issues you're not privy to and even hiring people for assistance to portray different cultures, religions, etc. accurately, but saying only a person of a certain group should be allowed to write people of that group is nutso.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by JeanGreyForever »

There was a lot of discourse on this and what to do when a certain minority is not the exact minority they are supposed to play. I found an excellent article on Ana Ortiz (Ugly Betty, Devious Maids, Love Simon) who is Puerto Rican and she explains why she feels that a Puerto Rican woman wouldn't necessarily be the perfect choice to play a Mexican woman.

A very insightful read so I posted the relevant information below.

https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/ ... interview/
I had this conversation with all my Latinx actor friends. Instead of having us play Mexicans, it makes more sense to keep it in the wheelhouse we know. Because what ended up happening is, throughout the show, James and I would add in our own little -isms. [For a scene] when [Victor] left the house, I said, "He would never leave the house without kissing me or me shouting bendición.” That's a very Puerto Rican thing. I don't have the experience to know if other cultures do that when the kid is leaving. So we were able to be free with that improv and bring that personal touch to the show. In my car I have the little Puerto Rican flag hanging, I have the Virgin Mary in my car, it's crazy. I get too Catholic. And so [the show] would adopt that into the house, family, and characters. Had we stayed as Mexican characters, there's so much I don't know.

When I speak to Judy Reyes, who is an incredible actress, she was on Devious Maids with me, she's on Claws now, she’s one of my closest friends—we talk about this all the time. Say someone is Salvadorian and she's playing a Cuban. We watch it with such a critical eye like, "Is that real? Is that how it is?" It's intimidating to not screw it up. If I was playing a Mexican, I would have been very conscientious about making sure my accent was right. That’s something I really regret, looking back at Betty. We were Mexican and it didn't even occur to me back then to make the effort of finding out what that meant. Hilda was just a part of me. [But] being a Mexican woman in New York is a totally different experience than [being] a Puerto Rican woman in New York.
Also, I've often used the terms "Hispanic," "Latino," or "Latina" but this article educated me that the term "Latinx" is the most inclusive and the generally preferred term.
I’ve noticed you use the term Latinx, which I think is amazing, but I also know there can be a generational divide with its popularity. What’s been your journey to using the term?

It's so funny you [bring it up], because I felt a lot of pushback from people in my age group and older. I don't want to dismiss them, because their point was it's our language. As we say, it’s ella/ello. So [some] are saying, You're taking away the ability for me to understand who you're speaking to. That's our language, it is masculine and feminine, so you can't take that away and make [it] this Latinx thing.

But the more I speak to people, the more I don't perceive it that way. I mean, Latinx, it's quite freaking dope. If I'm with the older generation in my family and they're saying Latino and Latina, I'm not going to start a fight about it. But in my life I have chosen to say Latinx because most of the people I hang out with do. I hang out with a lot of young people. Mark Indelicato from Betty is still one of my very best friends. He's the one who educates me on a lot of this stuff. It's something you have to adapt and get used to. We're evolving and everybody has to do it at their own pace. For me it's a little bit quicker because I'm surrounded by that type of conversation all the time.
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Re: Simpsons: White Actors No Longer Play Non-White Characte

Post by Disney Duster »

That is very good information to know. It's interesting how deep and complicated this issue goes and the different perspectives from the different races.
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