Tiana's Bayou Adventure

[JeanGreyForever]

But I don't want it re-themed at all really. I actually wish Disney would just release Song of the South with context! I wish Song of the South and especially The Princess and the Frog weren't seen as problematic. But c'mon there's racism in Dumbo and no one wants to re-theme that ride!

Or Peter Pan. Ugh

Yes, no one ever says that the Dumbo or Peter Pan rides should be torn down and in fact they're two of the most popular and iconic rides. Same with Splash Mountain even though it wasn't one of the original attractions.

[DisneyBluLife]

as for Splash Mountain I was thinking rethemeing it to a Moana ride by changing the log flume into her boat. But it wouldn't really fit with the Frontierland theme.

Pocahontas would fit the theme of Frontierland the most. They did plan a ride for her back in the day but it was cancelled because it clashed with their Fantasmic expansion as seen below. A pity.
http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_chief ... olumn.aspx

It is not much but atleast we have "Pocahontas Indian Village" in Disneyland Paris. The area matches Pocahontas' playful personality
https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Pocahont ... an_Village

[UmbrellaFish]

Again, I think the difference is that Disney themselves have deemed Song of the South too racist to be seen. SOTS is unique to all other Disney movies in this regard. And myself, I always cringed when we got to the Indian village diorama in Peter Pan’s Flight. It’s racist and embarrassing and yes, it should go— operating theme park attractions are not museum exhibits or completed works of art, they get plussed and tinkered with almost every year. Yes, passholder purists would raise holy hell if Disney removed the Indian village, but they’re also upset about having to wear masks when the parks reopen so that demographic is not exactly one of sober reason.

Pocahontas in Frontierland to me would seem a little iffy. Frontierland at MK is themed mostly to the southwest and Pocahontas takes place in coastal Virginia. It’s very much a different kind of “frontier.” Plus the pastel color scheme of the movie would really be at odds with the deep reds and oranges that tie Splash Mountain and Big Thunder Mountain together. I don’t think it would be a very appropriate fit.

[blackcauldron85]

Jim Hill's article posted above (I believe that's where I read it) mentioned the "Disney American Legends," if you will, in a different respect. But the previously mentioned John Henry, Paul Bunyon, The Brave Engineer, Johnny Appleseed, and throw in Pecos Bill, theme it to a flume, and that fits Frontierland. It'd be great if Disney would make "American Legends Vol 2," with some diversity, adding men and women of different races. (https://bestlifeonline.com/american-folk-heroes/ has some ideas.)

*edit* Not only is there a petition to update Splash Mountain, but one to keep it as is:
https://insidethemagic.net/2020/06/coun ... ition-ne1/

[unprincess]

its funny b/c both Pocahontas and PATF Disney tried to be real careful about being as PC as possible with the stories and characters at the time but it just ended up backfiring on them. Same with Frozen 2. Trying to make it all about female empowerment and including diverse characters yet someone forgot to tell them they also turned Elsa into a white savior trope.

as for Splash Mountain I was thinking rethemeing it to a Moana ride by changing the log flume into her boat. But it wouldn't really fit with the Frontierland theme.

And both Pocahontas and Tiana turned out to be their two least popular princesses. As for Frozen 2, it has the added insult to injury that they tried to retcon Elsa so she isn't white anymore or not completely white anyway.

Pocahontas would fit the theme of Frontierland the most. They did plan a ride for her back in the day but it was cancelled because it clashed with their Fantasmic expansion as seen below. A pity.
http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_chief ... olumn.aspx

ugh yeah and that little tan skinned Northuldra girl with curly hair turned out to be their very pale straight haired mom Iduna too... what were they thinking!? Maybe they in fact were aware that Elsa came off as a white savior trope so they changed her race so they could say "its okay cuz she's not totally white!"

thanks for the article links, and that reminds me that I saw the Pocahontas stage show at WDW back when I visited to the parks in the 90s! And I did enjoy it, I even kept and still have one of the paper leaves that blew out into the air towards the audience at the end of the show. I like blackcauldron85's idea of theming SM to use the American Folk heroes from the Disney shorts.

[Marce82]

It's an interesting topic.... I'm generally not a big fan of re-theming rides, or drastic changes to classic rides (some plussing is ok!).

In this case though, I would be very much ok with them re-theming Splash Mountain, for several reasons:

1) Having a ride at a park is a sort of "honor" a movie gets, somewhat to reflect that that movie has seeped general culture enough to be deemed timeless and recognizable. SOTS deserves no such honor, which leads me to...

2) The vast majority of people do not know this movie, don't remember the characters, and don't even know the ride is linked to a movie at all. This movie is only famous for being deemed "racist". And like someone on here said, if it were released, it would have the same level of appreciation as So Dear to my heart.

3) Disney has a lot of properties that are more deserving of a space in the park.... but....

Not sure what movie that should be. I don't think TPATF is a good choice... there are no mountains in that movie at all, and it really doesn't fit Frontierland. The ride is in Critter Country at Disneyland... some have mentioned it should be an animal movie... that could work. At first I thought Lion King... they could turn the mountain into Pride Rock or something... but there is no waterfall. COuld it be a Timon-and-Pumbaa ride? There are waterfalls in that jungle...
I think finding a movie that fits critter country would be easier than finding one that fits Frontierland... I suspect Frontierland will become a "problematic" land in the future anyways... time will tell.

All this said, SOTS should be released on home media and/or D+, with a video segment to put it in historic context.

I won't address Dumbo or Peter Pan... I am very much a liberal, but the "racism" in those movies is debatable, and the rides reflect those movies. If you remove the rides, it's like removing the movies. And if we are going to go that route... watch out, Small World! That entire ride is based on caricatures of stereotypes for each country/continent.

[JeanGreyForever]

Pocahontas would fit the theme of Frontierland the most. They did plan a ride for her back in the day but it was cancelled because it clashed with their Fantasmic expansion as seen below. A pity.
http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_chief ... olumn.aspx

It is not much but atleast we have "Pocahontas Indian Village" in Disneyland Paris. The area matches Pocahontas' playful personality
https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Pocahont ... an_Village

I think it's so neat that Parisians get to have something of Pocahontas in their park. I wish we had an attraction just for her in the states.

*edit* Not only is there a petition to update Splash Mountain, but one to keep it as is:
https://insidethemagic.net/2020/06/coun ... ition-ne1/

Thank you for sharing that!

Pocahontas in Frontierland to me would seem a little iffy. Frontierland at MK is themed mostly to the southwest and Pocahontas takes place in coastal Virginia. It’s very much a different kind of “frontier.” Plus the pastel color scheme of the movie would really be at odds with the deep reds and oranges that tie Splash Mountain and Big Thunder Mountain together. I don’t think it would be a very appropriate fit.

That's true, I didn't think about that. But in Disneyland/Magic Kingdom, it's really the only land that would suit her otherwise.

ugh yeah and that little tan skinned Northuldra girl with curly hair turned out to be their very pale straight haired mom Iduna too... what were they thinking!? Maybe they in fact were aware that Elsa came off as a white savior trope so they changed her race so they could say "its okay cuz she's not totally white!"

thanks for the article links, and that reminds me that I saw the Pocahontas stage show at WDW back when I visited to the parks in the 90s! And I did enjoy it, I even kept and still have one of the paper leaves that blew out into the air towards the audience at the end of the show. I like blackcauldron85's idea of theming SM to use the American Folk heroes from the Disney shorts.

Exactly, there's no resemblance whatsoever and clearly the character of Elsa's mom was not intended to be a POC in the first film. Disney clearly felt they'd earn woke points by "revealing" that Elsa, Anna, and mom aren't 100% white. Ironically enough no one pointed out that the voice actress for the mother is still white.

I wasn't born when that show came out which is a pity. I'm sure I can find it on YouTube though. That's really cool that you still have one of the paper leaves. I'm just glad WDW features Pocahontas in a prominent role in Fantasmic! I guess we can thank Michael Eisner for that.

[JeanGreyForever]

It's an interesting topic.... I'm generally not a big fan of re-theming rides, or drastic changes to classic rides (some plussing is ok!).

In this case though, I would be very much ok with them re-theming Splash Mountain, for several reasons:

1) Having a ride at a park is a sort of "honor" a movie gets, somewhat to reflect that that movie has seeped general culture enough to be deemed timeless and recognizable. SOTS deserves no such honor, which leads me to...

2) The vast majority of people do not know this movie, don't remember the characters, and don't even know the ride is linked to a movie at all. This movie is only famous for being deemed "racist". And like someone on here said, if it were released, it would have the same level of appreciation as So Dear to my heart.

3) Disney has a lot of properties that are more deserving of a space in the park.... but....

Not sure what movie that should be. I don't think TPATF is a good choice... there are no mountains in that movie at all, and it really doesn't fit Frontierland. The ride is in Critter Country at Disneyland... some have mentioned it should be an animal movie... that could work. At first I thought Lion King... they could turn the mountain into Pride Rock or something... but there is no waterfall. COuld it be a Timon-and-Pumbaa ride? There are waterfalls in that jungle...
I think finding a movie that fits critter country would be easier than finding one that fits Frontierland... I suspect Frontierland will become a "problematic" land in the future anyways... time will tell.

All this said, SOTS should be released on home media and/or D+, with a video segment to put it in historic context.

I won't address Dumbo or Peter Pan... I am very much a liberal, but the "racism" in those movies is debatable, and the rides reflect those movies. If you remove the rides, it's like removing the movies. And if we are going to go that route... watch out, Small World! That entire ride is based on caricatures of stereotypes for each country/continent.

One could argue that Splash mountain isn't representing or honoring the movie so much as the animated characters since those segments were sometimes released on their own separate from the live-action parts of the picture.

It's a shame So Dear to My Heart is so unloved. I used to look down on the film as well before watching it and it's quite heartfelt. I've heard this was one of Walt's favorite films plus the train station at Disneyland comes straight from this film so technically it does get representation at the parks. Danny the Lamb is also a beloved character in Japan and featured in the Tokyo park.

They could easily do a Timon and Pumbaa themed safari ride if they wanted to. The Jungle Book might also be a good substitute if they felt the need for a change. Both are two major classic Disney films which have little to no attractions in the parks.

The crows in Dumbo have never bothered me. As Whoopi Goldberg said, they're supportive of Dumbo and not antagonistic like almost everyone else in the film. The only outright racist part is the name of the main crow, Jim Crow, which frankly is inexcusable especially in today's day and age. I suppose whoever named him that thought it was clever back then. But I don't recall him ever being called Jim Crow in the film.

[Marce82]

Hey JeanGrey,

Well, the ride could be honoring those characters... but still, the vast majority of people don't know who they are. I think if you ask the most of people, they won't know them. A little bit of the problem that ended up killing mr.toad at WDW.

Im not saying So Dear to My heart was a bad movie... I haven't seen it in years, but we can all agree it has not seeped into popular culture. Whether the train station at the parks is a reference to it is questionable. Either way, not every film needs to be represented at the park.

I agree TLK or TJB would be the best fit for a re theming of SM. And for Critter country, it would be fine. But it would not work in Frontierland. Maybe they should do a version for WDW with the Pecos Bill, Johnny Appleseed, etc characters, and a TJB/TLK version for Disneyland.

Can you imagine the line if they did a TLK version?!!??!!?

Indeed, the name Jim Crow is never said in the film. It was just the name given behind the scenes... which I am sure was a pun intended for the staff to use only. The only thing that COULD be deemed racist is that one of the crows is voiced by a white guy, trying to do "black talk" of the time...
But I 100% agree with your perception of the crows.

[Farerb]

I don't know why the crows got so much attention recently, it's "Song of the Roustabouts" that's racist.

[JeanGreyForever]

Well you pointed out that you're okay with Splash Mountain being re-themed because at the parks, only movies that are popular with the public and should be recognized and esteemed should be included and you felt SOTS was not one of those films that deserved that attention. So my point was that you can consider Splash Mountain an ode to the Br'er Rabbit characters rather than SOTS as a film itself. I know people of my generation usually have no idea what movie Splash Mountain comes from and frankly most won't be interested enough to look it up and will just accept it without question. I'm assuming that's the mentality Disney had when they made the decision to only include the animated characters.

I know you weren't saying So Dear to My Heart was a bad movie, and I agree that it's not well-known at all. I was just pointing out that it does have a presence in the parks and if you look up any article on So Dear to My Heart trivia, it will point out that the train comes from that film and that's a tidbit that most Disney fans, including Disney Parks fans, aren't usually aware of. And it's probably such an obscure detail because the film is so obscure.

Frontierland is honestly pretty limiting when it comes to characters. I know I wouldn't be very interested in seeing a ride with Johnny Appleseed or Pecos Bill and considering how Disney acts like those package films don't even exist, I can't see them going this route but it's an inspired idea nevertheless. If there was more of a market for these classic American legends, it would have been a wonderful concept then.

I also realized that there actually are waterfalls in TLK. Not in Pride Rock but in the oasis where Timon, Pumbaa, and Simba live after Simba exiles himself. That place was full of waterfalls and it's sceanic and full of enough animals to serve as a great setting for a potential Splash Mountain retheme.


I forgot that about the voice actors for the crows. Although people should first look towards Frozen 2 and recognize that Elsa's mom, who has been retconned as a POC, is still voiced by a white woman even after they recast her. That should be addressed first before we start going back to films made in 1941 and questioning every decision about their making.

[JeanGreyForever]

I don't know why the crows got so much attention recently, it's "Song of the Roustabouts" that's racist.

I always forget about that scene entirely until I watch the film and it pops up. I agree that this song is far more problematic than the crows are.

[DisneyBluLife]

Maybe it can be a Zootopia ride too?

[Disney Duster]

Marce82, I think making Splash Mountain a Timon and Pumbaa ride is genius! I don't want it re-themed, but if it had to be, then that idea is fantastic!

And he also recommends listening to Karina Longworth’s “You Must Remember This” season on “Song of the South.” I think this is definitely required listening for the Disney fan. Listen here on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/y ... 0454433976

Is that just one episode, or many? I have time to listen to one podcast but if I have to listen to al lot I don't want to spend my time on that.

[DisneyBluLife]

There is also a briar patch in The Lion King when the hyenas are chasing Simba.

[DisneyFan97]

Marce82, I think making Splash Mountain a Timon and Pumbaa ride is genius! I don't want it re-themed, but if it had to be, then that idea is fantastic!

And he also recommends listening to Karina Longworth’s “You Must Remember This” season on “Song of the South.” I think this is definitely required listening for the Disney fan. Listen here on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/y ... 0454433976

Is that just one episode, or many? I have time to listen to one podcast but if I have to listen to al lot I don't want to spend my time on that.

I also love making g Splash Mountain a Timon and Pumbaa ride

But i really don't want it re-themed !!

If nothing eles i think it would bve really respctless to Nick Stewart , A black who lent his actually voicve to the ride

Nick Stewart is also kown for the Sitcom 'n' Andy Show and for must for founding one of the frist Racially integrated theaters ! The Ebony Showcase Theatre.

I think his legacy deserves to be kept alive

[JeanGreyForever]

Maybe it can be a Zootopia ride too?

That's actually what I originally thought but I've heard Tokyo (or maybe it was Shanghai) is planning a whole Zootopia-themed land. I can't remember anymore. There's also the fact that Zootopia is being called problematic towards racial minorities particularly black people so in the future, it may have a reputation as similar as Song of the South.

There is also a briar patch in The Lion King when the hyenas are chasing Simba.

There's enough in The Lion King that could support a whole land. Very strange that Disney never did anything with the property in the parks beyond some stage shows. They even created a virtual Timon and Pumbaa safari ride for the Platinum DVD.

[DisneyJedi]

Please don’t let this ride be re-themed. I like it the way it is.

[Disney Duster]

Hey, what are the objections to Zootopia's film now?

And really, if every film from Dumbo to Zootopia that deals with minorities is seen as problematic, I think just change the problems on the ride, if there are any, and leave the rest of the ride a lone because it is the film that is problematic, not the ride! So just change the Indian village in Peter Pan and be done with it!

There is also a briar patch in The Lion King when the hyenas are chasing Simba.

That's true too!

[JeanGreyForever]

There's a bit of discussion about why people find Zootopia to be problematic here.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27837&start=880