Belle vs Ariel

[Rose Dome]

How does one "intellectually persue" anything wihtout the ability to speak?

How about by writing?

Ariel is 16, which means she still has the ability to act like a child in wonderment over every new thing and get over excited.

Should she be getting married then?

To the audience the things she gets excited over are nothing special, but to her they're amazing. For that reason I don't believe it to be out of character for her or a sign of lowered intelligence.

I don't think she comes across as stupider because she takes a puppet off someone's hand, but I will admit my comment could've been read that way. What I meant to say is that she doesn't go to the local bookshop by herself, or anything like that. She just goes on a date with Eric.

She falls in love with the first handsome man she sees...

And she's extremely lucky he's a decent chap. Imagine if Belle had done the same...

Too me it's a sign of her inexperience which is reasonable for her age. She also knows she has only a little time to kiss so she tries all the "wrong" moves becuase of her limited experience and abilities...

Fair enough, but how well does she know him? How much does she do without him?

...but this is still after all the day of dancing, horseback riding and puppet snatching so it seems wrong to suggest she didn't try to be a "fun go getting girl" at first.

I'll give it to you that she tried to be a fun go getting girl on the date, but she was very clingy after that.

[Rose Dome]

I don’t think Ariel is “different,” at least not in the way Disney Geek put it. She never has to not accept a beast like Belle, because she doesn’t get with a beast. You can’t hold it against the character just because she decided to like a man without anger management problems.

Belle only started liking The Beast after his anger mangement problems lessened, and Ariel might not have met a beast, but Belle met a hunk (Gaston) Yes he's an a**hole but Eric could've been for all Ariel knew when she first said "He's so handsome".

Sure, the deal wasn’t a bright spot, but it clearly took place in an emotional moment for her, after Triton’s violent spell.

True, but you'd expect her to have second thoughts, and go off exploring the human world by herself until she turned back into a mermaid again. In Part of That World she sings "What would I pay to spend a day warm on the sand" meaning that her time on land didn't have to be for the rest of her life. Surely if she was thinking enough about anyone other than Eric, she would've thought "That was a bad deal to make for a man I hardly know. I'm just going to enjoy the human world until I have to become a mermaid again. At least I got to be up here and prove to my Father, by returning safely, that humans are not monsters. I did sing about how I would've been happy with one day after all."

I would say Belle is equally stupid for wandering into a Beast-she-doesn't-know-and-who-she-knew-was-dangerous's lair when he specifically told her to stay out, risking herself harm because of nosiness.

He had no right to keep her as his prisoner, and tell her where she could and couldn't go. She ran away rather than cowering and taking his rage, and it made him come to his senses.

Ariel is a very enthusiastic character, whereas Belle is somewhat cold and overly serious.

I can't see how Belle is cold or overly serious.

(Not saying Belle isn't intelligent, but I never thought Ariel was dumb either.)

I get you. I don't think that reading alot automatically makes Belle the smartest Disney Princess, nor would I call Ariel the stupidest.

[Disney's Divinity]

Belle only started liking The Beast after his anger mangement problems lessened, and Ariel might not have met a beast, but Belle met a hunk (Gaston) Yes he's an a**hole but Eric could've been for all Ariel knew when she first said "He's so handsome".

I always thought she liked him because he appeared to be somewhat decent (along with the hotness. ). She listens to him talk on the boat prior to the beach scene, and makes goo-goo eyes over what she hears, not just what she sees.

Clearly she had good instincts, considering he nearly died to save a girl he only knew three days. True, that's common for a Disney prince, but it still means something within the film's universe.

True, but you'd expect her to have second thoughts, and go off exploring the human world by herself until she turned back into a mermaid again. In Part of That World she sings "What would I pay to spend a day warm on the sand" meaning that her time on land didn't have to be for the rest of her life. Surely if she was thinking enough about anyone other than Eric, she would've thought "That was a bad deal to make for a man I hardly know. I'm just going to enjoy the human world until I have to become a mermaid again. At least I got to be up here and prove to my Father, by returning safely, that humans are not monsters. I did sing about how I would've been happy with one day after all."

Not sure what you meant about the "second thoughts" part (if you're talking about the deal/Ursula, her first thoughts were to ignore F&J because Ursula's a criminal).

As for the other part, the problem here is that, imo, she did "enjoy the human world" while there--she just chose to enjoy Eric's company, also. Although Eric took precedence with the deal (although, honestly, I think her wish to be away from Triton took precedence), the wish to be human was still there, and it showed in all her scenes (the obsession with her feet, and walking; the amazement at the fork, the bubble bath, and clothes; the enthusiasm over driving, dancing, and running; etc.). The reason that gets overshadowed is that the story also becomes somewhat of a coming-of-age/sexual awakening story along the way, where she also gets her first date, first kiss, and so on. Basically, she got to enjoy everything that her father forbade--the human world and boys.

He had no right to keep her as his prisoner, and tell her where she could and couldn't go.

True, but considering we were talking about "stupid" scenarios, that doesn't make the character any less dense for disobeying/tempting fate with a beast who was going to kill her father.

I can't see how Belle is cold or overly serious.

That's just one way to read the character's behavior towards the townspeople and the Beast. The same way some people can see Ariel's enthusiasm and autonomy as childish and spoiled.

[Flanger-Hanger]

What I meant to say is that she doesn't go to the local bookshop by herself, or anything like that. She just goes on a date with Eric.

She already had a book (possibly more) in her grotto, this is her chance to touch and see everything described to her before in person. That and she only has two days left to kiss him or she'll essentially loose her soul.

[Goliath]

Ariel's not perfect either, but she seems so spoiled to me.

Someday, someone *really* has to explain this often-heard criticism of the character to me. Because I've never seen any serious explanation. The 'spoiled' label is just tossed out there without any backing to it.

[...] When on land, [Ariel] appeals to him not by being a fun go getting girl, but by being all coy with her bashful grins and eyelid fluttering. There are moments of zest, such as when she takes the horses' reins, and when she takes the puppet off the Person's hand, but these are hardly the intellectual persuits she originally dreamed of. It's almost as if Ursula took away half her IQ points, along with her voice.

I disagree. Remember Ariel is just a teenager. I think her portrayal is spot-on. She's just a girl trying to impress the guy she's in love with it. It doesn't get any more basic than that. How does a girl do that? By tryin to have a good, fun time with him. In that regard, I think the decpiction of Ariel was right and true to real life. I fail to see why it would make her any less intelligent. I like Ariel far more than Belle, because she did everything she could to reach her goal. Belle just sat there, in her castle.

True, but you'd expect her to have second thoughts, and go off exploring the human world by herself until she turned back into a mermaid again. In Part of That World she sings "What would I pay to spend a day warm on the sand" meaning that her time on land didn't have to be for the rest of her life. Surely if she was thinking enough about anyone other than Eric, she would've thought "That was a bad deal to make for a man I hardly know. I'm just going to enjoy the human world until I have to become a mermaid again. [...]

You seem to forget that Ariel would becomes the 'possession' of Ursula if she didn't kiss Eric within three days. You act as if she could've enjoyed life on land and then become a mermaid again and go home, but that's not the case. She had to make Eric fall in love with her, or she would spend the rest of her life in Usrula's little garden.

[Goliath]

This is what I wrote about Ariel two years ago (my, does time reallt fly by that fast?!):

As much as I love so many other Disney Classics, The Little Mermaid engages me in such a strong emotional way, which no other Disney film does. In each and every scene, I am 'living' the film, to the point that I care about Ariel as a character to such a degree, that I never experience with any other character from a Disney film. And that got me thinking: why is that?

I think it's because of all of Disney's leading characters, Ariel has the most 'emotional' motivation for her actions, and she's the one who goes the farthest to obtain her goal. Let's compare.

Snow White, Cinderella and Aurora had no distinct goal. They just wandered around in their own films until something happened to them, and more often than not, other characters had to get them out of the mess the girls got into. Belle and Jasmine effectively did nothing but sit around in their castles, unwilling, yes, but still, they did. And while they had a vaguely stated goal of wanting to get 'away', the film's plot dictated that they did nothing to achieve it. Tiana has my everlasting respect for being the first 'feminist' princess, but owning her restaurant was not really a very emotional quest. Now let's turn to the non-princess characters.

Pinocchio has a clear goal: he wants to be a real boy, but what does he do to become one? He spends most of the film trying to simply have a good time, but ends up in trouble because of it. Alice's only goal is to escape Wonderland, but it ends up being just a dream. Wendy, John and Michael have no goal except playing around with Peter Pan in Neverland. Bernard and Bianca have a noble goal: to save Penny from Madam Medusa, but that's not something they do for themselves, it's not for their own sake.

I could go on for a while, but I think it's clear what I mean. Ariel is the only Disney character who has a clear goal set for herself, and she will do whatever it takes to achieve it, even if it means giving up everything she knows (her father and her sisters), giving up her voice and putting herself in danger (doing business with Ursula). All because of her one big wish, and this wish comes forth from her inner feelings; it's her emotions that thrive all her actions, that thrive the whole movie even.

And this could have easily ruïned the film. Because as we know, Ariel doesn't really know Erik at all. She sees him and instantly falls in love with him, without ever having spoken a word to him. It's what we would call 'puppy love', a teenage craze. Something so superficial that it will blow over in a few weeks. But at the end of the film, when Triton says to Sebastian: "She really loves him, doesn't she?", it just feels very natural and believable. That's because the determination in Ariel -again, not seen in any other Disney character- makes it believable to us. It's this spirit that's so beautifully captured in her animation. I would guess the head animator had real teenage daughter, because Ariel is so lifelike (again, kind of in a unique way), and the superb voicework of Jodi Benson makes it all the more convincing.

[Linden]

This is what I wrote about Ariel two years ago (my, does time reallt fly by that fast?!):

As much as I love so many other Disney Classics, The Little Mermaid engages me in such a strong emotional way, which no other Disney film does. In each and every scene, I am 'living' the film, to the point that I care about Ariel as a character to such a degree, that I never experience with any other character from a Disney film. And that got me thinking: why is that?

I think it's because of all of Disney's leading characters, Ariel has the most 'emotional' motivation for her actions, and she's the one who goes the farthest to obtain her goal. Let's compare.

Snow White, Cinderella and Aurora had no distinct goal. They just wandered around in their own films until something happened to them, and more often than not, other characters had to get them out of the mess the girls got into. Belle and Jasmine effectively did nothing but sit around in their castles, unwilling, yes, but still, they did. And while they had a vaguely stated goal of wanting to get 'away', the film's plot dictated that they did nothing to achieve it. Tiana has my everlasting respect for being the first 'feminist' princess, but owning her restaurant was not really a very emotional quest. Now let's turn to the non-princess characters.

Pinocchio has a clear goal: he wants to be a real boy, but what does he do to become one? He spends most of the film trying to simply have a good time, but ends up in trouble because of it. Alice's only goal is to escape Wonderland, but it ends up being just a dream. Wendy, John and Michael have no goal except playing around with Peter Pan in Neverland. Bernard and Bianca have a noble goal: to save Penny from Madam Medusa, but that's not something they do for themselves, it's not for their own sake.

I could go on for a while, but I think it's clear what I mean. Ariel is the only Disney character who has a clear goal set for herself, and she will do whatever it takes to achieve it, even if it means giving up everything she knows (her father and her sisters), giving up her voice and putting herself in danger (doing business with Ursula). All because of her one big wish, and this wish comes forth from her inner feelings; it's her emotions that thrive all her actions, that thrive the whole movie even.

And this could have easily ruined the film. Because as we know, Ariel doesn't really know Erik at all. She sees him and instantly falls in love with him, without ever having spoken a word to him. It's what we would call 'puppy love', a teenage craze. Something so superficial that it will blow over in a few weeks. But at the end of the film, when Triton says to Sebastian: "She really loves him, doesn't she?", it just feels very natural and believable. That's because the determination in Ariel -again, not seen in any other Disney character- makes it believable to us. It's this spirit that's so beautifully captured in her animation. I would guess the head animator had real teenage daughter, because Ariel is so lifelike (again, kind of in a unique way), and the superb voicework of Jodi Benson makes it all the more convincing.

You make a pretty good case for Ariel, but it's still a matter of preference. Just because Ariel had a clear goal and consistently worked toward that goal, that does not make her necessarily better. Belle has a goal too, that's not very different from Ariel's: she wants so much more than her provincial life. She wants to get out and experience things she could never experience at home. And she does, but not because she works toward it relentlessly. Most people have goals but don't know how to realize them. It doesn't make them worse, it just makes them different than go-getters who spend all their time and effort to reach that goal. I think Belle is probably more like the average person in that she wants something - very badly - but isn't sure how to get it. Personally, I can identify with that more.

I think you're unfair about Tiana's goal, too. The restaurant is a very emotional quest for Tiana. She's working towards fulfilling her dead dad's dream to honor his memory. It's a very personal, yet selfless, goal.

All this talk about Ariel makes me want to go watch TLM. I'll have to rewatch it soon and see if my opinion on her has changed at all. This smilie just looks creepy to me.

[Disney's Divinity]

I think you're unfair about Tiana's goal, too. The restaurant is a very emotional quest for Tiana.

I thought that, too. But I can understand that the film doesn't quite put as much focus on it as "Part of That World" and other scenes do for Ariel.

I've found since I joined this forum that Ariel is a very polarizing character. Love her or hate her, "there's only one Ariel."

[Rose Dome]

I always thought she liked him because he appeared to be somewhat decent (along with the hotness. ). She listens to him talk on the boat prior to the beach scene, and makes goo-goo eyes over what she hears, not just what she sees.

I didn't consider this. I guess it wasn't just looks.

Not sure what you meant about the "second thoughts" part (if you're talking about the deal/Ursula, her first thoughts were to ignore F&J because Ursula's a criminal).

As for the other part, the problem here is that, imo, she did "enjoy the human world" while there--she just chose to enjoy Eric's company, also. Although Eric took precedence with the deal (although, honestly, I think her wish to be away from Triton took precedence), the wish to be human was still there, and it showed in all her scenes (the obsession with her feet, and walking; the amazement at the fork, the bubble bath, and clothes; the enthusiasm over driving, dancing, and running; etc.). The reason that gets overshadowed is that the story also becomes somewhat of a coming-of-age/sexual awakening story along the way, where she also gets her first date, first kiss, and so on. Basically, she got to enjoy everything that her father forbade--the human world and boys.

By "second thoughts" I meant wishing she had properly said goodbye to her Father and Sisters, not being in the human world (which she clearly enjoyed) I forgot about her ignoring Floatsam and Jetsam.

True, but considering we were talking about "stupid" scenarios, that doesn't make the character any less dense for disobeying/tempting fate with a beast who was going to kill her father.

I grant you, it was a dangerous thing to do. Being in the wrong would not have stopped The Beast from hurting her.

That's just one way to read the character's behavior towards the townspeople and the Beast. The same way some people can see Ariel's enthusiasm and autonomy as childish and spoiled.

Fair enough. I can't share the dislike of Belle, but I don't consider it to be unfairly lashed out. Ariel is disliked as well, and there are plenty who can't share that dislike. It's all about interpretation

[Rose Dome]

She already had a book (possibly more) in her grotto...

That's why I would expect her to go to the local bookshop. Wouldn't she wonder where humans got books from?

That and she only has two days left to kiss him or she'll essentially loose her soul.

I didn't say that she shouldn't have spent any time around him, just that she should've been less clingy, and besides, the deal was an extremely bad move. I know what's said about her being emotionally shaken by Triton's rampage, but doesn't she say something along the lines of "But I'll never see my Father and Sisters again" when Ursula presents the deal to her? She's clearly back in the right frame of mind.

[Flanger-Hanger]

That's why I would expect her to go to the local bookshop. Wouldn't she wonder where humans got books from?

I don't really see why she would.

I didn't say that she shouldn't have spent any time around him, just that she should've been less clingy

She's with the man of her dreams who volunteers to show off his home town to her. I don't see that as "clingy". She's excited, he's happy to be there with her.

and besides, the deal was an extremely bad move.

Of course the deal was a bad move, I'm pretty sure she realises that before the movie is done.

[King Louis 2010]

Ariel. Is more interesting and seems more, well, human.

[Rose Dome]

This is what I wrote about Ariel two years ago (my, does time reallt fly by that fast?!):

As much as I love so many other Disney Classics, The Little Mermaid engages me in such a strong emotional way, which no other Disney film does. In each and every scene, I am 'living' the film, to the point that I care about Ariel as a character to such a degree, that I never experience with any other character from a Disney film. And that got me thinking: why is that?

I think it's because of all of Disney's leading characters, Ariel has the most 'emotional' motivation for her actions, and she's the one who goes the farthest to obtain her goal. Let's compare.

Snow White, Cinderella and Aurora had no distinct goal. They just wandered around in their own films until something happened to them, and more often than not, other characters had to get them out of the mess the girls got into. Belle and Jasmine effectively did nothing but sit around in their castles, unwilling, yes, but still, they did. And while they had a vaguely stated goal of wanting to get 'away', the film's plot dictated that they did nothing to achieve it. Tiana has my everlasting respect for being the first 'feminist' princess, but owning her restaurant was not really a very emotional quest. Now let's turn to the non-princess characters.

Pinocchio has a clear goal: he wants to be a real boy, but what does he do to become one? He spends most of the film trying to simply have a good time, but ends up in trouble because of it. Alice's only goal is to escape Wonderland, but it ends up being just a dream. Wendy, John and Michael have no goal except playing around with Peter Pan in Neverland. Bernard and Bianca have a noble goal: to save Penny from Madam Medusa, but that's not something they do for themselves, it's not for their own sake.

I could go on for a while, but I think it's clear what I mean. Ariel is the only Disney character who has a clear goal set for herself, and she will do whatever it takes to achieve it, even if it means giving up everything she knows (her father and her sisters), giving up her voice and putting herself in danger (doing business with Ursula). All because of her one big wish, and this wish comes forth from her inner feelings; it's her emotions that thrive all her actions, that thrive the whole movie even.

And this could have easily ruïned the film. Because as we know, Ariel doesn't really know Erik at all. She sees him and instantly falls in love with him, without ever having spoken a word to him. It's what we would call 'puppy love', a teenage craze. Something so superficial that it will blow over in a few weeks. But at the end of the film, when Triton says to Sebastian: "She really loves him, doesn't she?", it just feels very natural and believable. That's because the determination in Ariel -again, not seen in any other Disney character- makes it believable to us. It's this spirit that's so beautifully captured in her animation. I would guess the head animator had real teenage daughter, because Ariel is so lifelike (again, kind of in a unique way), and the superb voicework of Jodi Benson makes it all the more convincing.

I agree with Linden about this. While Ariel's go for the goal attitude is appealing to some, others (such as myself) relate more to Belle, because she has a sense of wanting something different, but she doesn't know how to realise it. This is the story of my life She is no less independent in spirit than Ariel. It's all about an individual's perspective and personality.

[Scarred4life]

I've always thought that Belle didn't know exactly what she wanted. She wanted 'something more' but I don't think she quite realized what that was.

[Linden]

I agree with Linden about this. While Ariel's go for the goal attitude is appealing to some, others (such as myself) relate more to Belle, because she has a sense of wanting something different, but she doesn't know how to realise it. This is the story of my life She is no less independent in spirit than Ariel. It's all about an individual's perspective and personality.

Story of my life too.

[Chernabog_Rocks]

I haven't had time to really read through all of this, but I did want to chime in on one of Divinity's small bits.

Basically, she got to enjoy everything that her father forbade--the human world and boys

Yes he forbade the human world (it really would be stupid to say he didn't), however I never really picked up on "Boys are forbidden too!" largely due to that one scene where Triton says something like "My Ariel? In love?" and he seems happy about this (and I believe wondered who the lucky merman was?), I'm willing to say he wouldn't forbid (merman) boys just because if she was showing interest in them, then hey better than keeping up her interest with those pesky humans.

Anyways. Run on sentence is run on.

[Super Aurora]

I agree with Linden about this. While Ariel's go for the goal attitude is appealing to some, others (such as myself) relate more to Belle, because she has a sense of wanting something different, but she doesn't know how to realise it. This is the story of my life She is no less independent in spirit than Ariel. It's all about an individual's perspective and personality.

Story of my life too.

[Disney's Divinity]

@Chernabog: I know, I was joking. That's what the wink was for. I was just going by that whole stereotype that fathers don't want their little girls around boys.

But, yeah, I also thought he was only as happy about that as he was because it meant they could be past the whole human world thing and back to real teenage girl concerns. "This is actually something I prepared for!" That came back to haunt him.