From EU candidate booklets to rip offs in Disney Animation

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Jules
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Post by Jules »

Super Aurora wrote:As for the other stuff, the similarities to me are far and between to make a complaint about. Nadia/Atlantis is a whole another story as 2099net have said.
So, to recap:

The Lion King/Kimba the White Lion - Nothing to make a fuss about. The Lion King remains a masterful film.

Atlantis: The Lost Empire/ Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water - Plenty to make a fuss about. Atlantis is a favourite of mine, nonetheless. I suspect the plaigarisms may be the result of just a few people's contributions. Could the character designers be the culprits? Or perhaps those who penned the script? Could Gary and Kirk not have spotted the similarities (especially if they told the truth and have indeed never seen Nadia)? It's truly a shame Atlantis turned out the way it did, because Nadia controvery aside, it's a solid action adventure film with some killer animation to boot. Oh, and it's possibly the most adult-sy of the Disney animated features. I'm surprised it wasn't rated PG-13 in the US!

Now, besides those two, I'd like to raise another interesting comparison. What about Disney's Aladdin and Richard Williams' The Thief and the Cobbler? Is there significant evidence to suggest that the Disney version lifted characters and ideas from Williams' film too?
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2099net
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Post by 2099net »

Not really Julian. Joking aside - I wish I never posted my first little "joke" - Kimba is a big issue. Mainly because as I say, Disney protect their copyright so jealously (to the extent of threatening a business with a legitimate Peter Pan license arranged with GOSH with closure in the UK a couple of years ago) so Kimba, in my mind, is a big issue.

I say Atlantis is a bigger issue because, in my mind, Kimba/The Lion King could be a "mistake" - they could have let the Kimba influences bleed into the film almost by accident. But I feel that they should have learned their lesson when Atlantis was made.

Atlantis does upset me, because I personally love Mignola's comic book art, and I love his designs for Atlantis, but having had some first hand knowledge of Nadia, I cannot come to any other conclusion apart from Atlantis copies a large number of elements from Nadia - both narratively and design wise. It's even more disappointing because I'm a big supporter of Disney making original animated classics and pushing the boundaries of what can and cannot be called an animated classic.
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Post by Lazario »

I dislike Lion King so much, I'm all for people ripping it off!
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Jules
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Post by Jules »

2099net wrote:Atlantis does upset me, because I personally love Mignola's comic book art, and I love his designs for Atlantis, but having had some first hand knowledge of Nadia, I cannot come to any other conclusion apart from Atlantis copies a large number of elements from Nadia - both narratively and design wise. It's even more disappointing because I'm a big supporter of Disney making original animated classics and pushing the boundaries of what can and cannot be called an animated classic.
Hence the heartbreak.

You and I both love stylised animation (I recall you claiming that you consider Hercules a standout in that regard). However, under Lasseter's gaze I doubt WDAS will ever get too edgy or experimental, not even in art direction let alone subject matter. I suspect had Lasseter been around at Atlantis' inception, he would have buried it simply because it was too different.

Most people consider this last decade of Disney animation to be a failure both in terms of box-office (Emperor, Treasure Planet) and critical perception (Home on the Range, Chicken Little). Yet for all its flaws I find it to be the most fascinating period of Disney animation, along with 1940s post-war years. The range of films that WDAS had churned out since 2000 is pretty vast, and I personally see beauty even in the most maligned of projects, such as Chicken Little. Yes, Chicken Little was poor - in the story department! But what about its visuals? Doesn't anybody appreciate the contemporary designs of Chicken Little's environent, the contrasting colour palettes, the striking character animation and general visual imagination? Not everything about the film is bad! And then you get a professional film critic like James Berardinelli claiming that Toy Story's animation is better than Chicken Little's. It makes me mad.

I hope I haven't deviated to much from the initial argument ... :oops:
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Post by Super Aurora »

I'm not saying Lion King is a perfect master film that deserves it's praise, but from the comparisons I make out, the premises is very similar but has some differences as well. Lion king theme seems to be more about life and rebirth of nature. Kimba was more on the human/animal relationship If my memory serves correct(I haven't seen the series or movie in long time). I do agree some of the similarities are WAY too similar to be coincidence but I still find the Atlantis/Nadia one a lot bigger in similarities that it's almost hard to ignore.

2099net, I do agree Disney are greedy corrupt pigs, especially that Peter Pan ordeal you mention. But that's what happen when a company becomes big like Disney. It's inevitable. And I agree Atlantis's art look great and that it's a shame that it ripped off from Nadia.

Now as for Chicken Little, I personally wasn't fond of the design and concept art. Never stuck with me. As for Stylized Animation itself, I have mixed opinion on the subject matter. In some aspect and cases it awesome but sometimes it's overused way too much that it gets bland and boring, especially when they add too much unneeded humor to it.
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Mooky
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Post by Mooky »

Amateurs...

They've got nothing on us Balkan folks, masters of piracy and rip-offs!

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Post by Goliath »

Mooky wrote:Amateurs...

They've got nothing on us Balkan folks, masters of piracy and rip-offs
Hmm... but that's different. Snow White is not invented by Disney, or does it hold the copyright on the story. And fairy tales themselves were based on a whole range of older myths and legends.
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Post by Elladorine »

2099net wrote:Atlantis does upset me, because I personally love Mignola's comic book art, and I love his designs for Atlantis, but having had some first hand knowledge of Nadia, I cannot come to any other conclusion apart from Atlantis copies a large number of elements from Nadia - both narratively and design wise. It's even more disappointing because I'm a big supporter of Disney making original animated classics and pushing the boundaries of what can and cannot be called an animated classic.
Design-wise:

I actually believe there are some coincidences in character designs there. Atlantis needed a main character interested in science and languages, and it's not far-fetched for them to choose a nerdy design featuring glasses and a bow tie. And as for the exotic, dark-skinned scantily-clad princess, that's a given too; the idea behind both princesses is that they were of an older race of a lost civilization. And the idea of the girl wearing glowing crystals and using their powers was not exactly new with Nadia.

As for the other character pictured with their "counterparts," Electra and Helga are both blondes. OMG, how could they both have blonde characters?

The black bald doctor from Nadia . . . his part was so small I don't even remember if he had a name. Vinny and his counterpart. Ok, they both have dark hair and handlebar-type mustaches. If anything, Vinny resembles his voice actor, and you could say the same for Dr. Sweet as well.

As for the counterparts to the countless other characters from each story? Should we compare Captain Nemo and Rourke? There aren't really any comparisons to make there, except that they're both in command.

Narratively:

As for the stories, aren't they both inspired from the same source material, Jules Vernes' 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea? That actually explains a lot of the similarites. Check out the chart on this page: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2001-07-19

I've seen Nadia all the way through myself and the scope and feel of the series has a completely different feel than Atlantis. I never once felt cheated by Disney over any similarities between the two. And as for Kimba, I can't say since I've never seen that series for myself so I'll keep my mouth shut about that one. :p
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Jules
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Post by Jules »

How cruel. Netty makes excellent points. But enigmawing does too. Who to trust?

I must admit I reaaaaaaaaaaaally want wingy to be right. I guess it's just the bias I have towards Disney's adaptation. Sigh ...
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Post by Elladorine »

Julian Carter wrote:How cruel. Netty makes excellent points. But enigmawing does too. Who to trust?

I must admit I reaaaaaaaaaaaally want wingy to be right. I guess it's just the bias I have towards Disney's adaptation. Sigh ...
You'll have to watch the series sometime and decide for yourself. ;)

Anyway . . .

I thought I'd come back and post a pic and some info with some of the main characters from Nadia . . .

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Jean is the boy in glasses, an 14-year-old inventor from France who dreams of building the first working airplane. He meets Nadia at the world's fair, who is an orphaned circus performer. She is a strict vegetarian and has a pet lion cub named King. She is being chased by thieves (the three characters in the lower left of the pic) because of the jewel she wears around her neck. Jean eventually helps her shake the jewel thieves and promises to someday take Nadia to Africa, which she believes to be her home.

However, the jewel thieves continue to pursue her, threatening to take away the one thing she feels might be the key to her mysterious past. Jean and Nadia are eventually rescued by Captain Nemo of the Nautilus (the guy in the hat), who is assisted in his submarine by Electra (the blonde) and a cast of minor characters (including the two very minor characters people compare to Vinny and Dr. Sweet). They must stop the Neo-Atlanteans at all cost, a group lead by Gargoyle (the masked guy in the background) that plans to take over the world. Somewhere along their adventures they pick up Marie (the little girl), whose parents were among the victims of the Neo-Atlanteans. The jewel thieves soften over time and befriend the main heroes.

They eventually reach Atlantis, which is a dead civilization. Nadia learns her true origin as well as who her father is. And the Neo-Atlanteans plan on exploiting her hidden powers . . .

So yeah, I can totally see how Disney ripped them off. :p
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Post by Mooky »

Goliath wrote:
Mooky wrote:Amateurs...

They've got nothing on us Balkan folks, masters of piracy and rip-offs
Hmm... but that's different. Snow White is not invented by Disney, or does it hold the copyright on the story. And fairy tales themselves were based on a whole range of older myths and legends.
Image Image

Does it seem different now? :wink:

Anyway, the whole point is that the makers of this Snow White DVD used imagery similar to Disney's to sell their own sub-par product (and it's not the first time they did it).
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Post by Elladorine »

Mooky- I don't have any examples to show, but I see companies copying poses and more from Disney like that all the time. It's one thing for an artist to learn by copying, but quite another to do so in order to sell a product. :lol:

And isn't it interesting how that particular piece of Disney art is more appealing in every way over the copy you posted? :D
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Post by 2099net »

Hi Emma

While I have the whole Nadia epic, I must confess that I haven't viewed it all - frankly I got bored with it. But I still feel that there are far too many similarities between it and Atlantis to be co-incidental.

Yes, the story you have described is far from Atlantis', but its also not that far removed in certain places. To claim the similarities exist because both take 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea as their inspiration is somewhat illogical, because as far as I know, no version of 20,000 Leagues under the Sea includes Atlantis, energy christals, no extinct/abondoned ancient civilisations at all infact. Nor does it include anybody wanting to take over the world (although Nemo is a terrorist who strikes out at the British Empire).

In fact, beyond the fantastic nature of Nemo's ship, 20,000 Leagues is not such a fantastical story - Two or three biologists are sent on an expedition to locate/identify/destroy a huge sea creature that is sinking ships. They end up stranded on the monster after an encounter in which the creature sinks their ship, only to find that the "creature" is in-fact man made, and Nemo's Nautilus. Nemo is an Indian who has removed himself from society, and attacks British shipping, because the British Empire were responsible for the deaths of his wife and children. The scientists are held prisoner - for Nemo fears if they are let go they will betray him to the British authorities. The majority of the novel involves non-exciting "routine" travellogues until the giant squid attack towards the end, and then the scientists manage to escape when the Nautilus gets caught in a whirlpool - the fate of Nemo and his ship is not revealed.

True, there's a couple (I think) of other Nemo books, at least one of which is a prequel (and involves ret-conning of Nemo's history and motivations if I recall correctly). I don't think either of these involves anything remotely like Atlantis (the place) in the story, or energy chrystals. Sadly I'm at my parents this week so can't check my Encyclopedia of Fantastic Victoriana)

Nadia and Atlantis are too similar, far to similar and unlike their inspiration to simply claim this is where the similarites come from - you don't have to copy wholesale an idea or concept to plagorize it. Nadia lasts for hours! Atlantis is a movie less than two hours. Of course its going to be different.

Regardless of if Atlantis is or is not a deliberate copy, the fact remains it looks suspiciously like certain parts are. And after the Kimba/Lion King fisaco, Disney should of had checks and balances in place to stop them being placed in such a position again. I'm sure Disney aren't as forgiving when it comes to other films/books having similarities to their properties. It's not as if in a lot of cases where copying is accused, that this is from an unmade script.

Of course, the biggest case of Disney copying another concept/idea is The Incredibles. :) When does homage end and copying begin?
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Post by Mooky »

enigmawing wrote:Mooky- I don't have any examples to show, but I see companies copying poses and more from Disney like that all the time. It's one thing for an artist to learn by copying, but quite another to do so in order to sell a product. :lol:
Oh, I know :). And Disney princesses are arguably the most popular Disney characters to be copied. I wish I had taken pics of some of the other merchandise I saw (even taking this one was risky, one of the store ladies was giving me a weird look), I'm used to seeing stuff like that.
enigmawing wrote:And isn't it interesting how that particular piece of Disney art is more appealing in every way over the copy you posted? :D
Haha, yes, even a low quality gif image looks better than that "artwork" :p.

And speaking of Disney ripping off others, I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Calimero. It's an Italian TV show from the '70s about a little chicken and his misadventures. There are some weird similarities to Disney's Chicken Little. I don't know if they're strong enough to label it as another thing Disney "made homage to", but it's strange nonetheless. For example, the characters are all antropomorphized animals, they live in a peaceful little town, Calimero is sort of an outsider who's afraid of sky falling on his head, he gets in troubles with his teachers at school, he hangs out with a duck, etc. Then again, one could say Calimero is a rip-off of the original 1943 Chicken Little, but its whole style is more similar to the 2005 version. Look it up on YouTube or visit the official site.
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Post by Elladorine »

Netty, I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, but I do see many of the points you're making. I'm glad you're not saying that the film is a *complete and total* rip-off of Nadia as one of my friends was claiming this morning. And to be fair I'd have to review the series again myself, it's been a few years since I've sat down to watch it. Even with some of the similarities going on, I wouldn't make a full-on accusation of plagiarism, as you mentioned any similarities is something Disney should have been much more careful about it, especially after the whole Kimba thing.

If anything, I'm more wary of the whole Lion King/Kimba incident, but once again I haven't watched Kimba myself so I don't really feel right in making accusations on that one. I do find it odd that Matthew Broderick mentioned he thought was doing a voice for Disney's remake of Kimba, although it could easily been a mistake since he was familiar with the show as a kid and made an assumption based on any similarities he noticed. Roy Disney also mentioned something about the character Kimba in their upcoming Lion King movie, was that a mistake as well?

But the convo we've had here is all good, I got inspired to do a pic of Kida that I stuck in my new banner. ;)


Mooky, yep, there are copies of Disney Princesses all over the place! :lol: I picked up a coloring book once for the kids I used to work with, and the images inside were atrocious copies of Disney clip art. Wish I still had it to do some scanning. :lol:

Anyway, you've got me curious about Calimero and I've been checking it out. Interesting . . .
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