Greek/Roman Mythology Discussion

[PrincePhillipFan]

Just wanted to drop in here again and mention that I'm so excited for my humanities course this semester. We'll be covering lots of ancient civilizations from Mesopotamia, Egypt, Rome, and Grece. And even better I managed to get signed up for the Greece group project presentations to do the one on the Greek gods.

I made an entire revised outline which I'll probably post here. It's so long I think I've pretty much done all the work for my group already lol

[Margos]

Just voted for Athena.

I must say, I've always had a soft spot for the goddess of wisdom. Whenever I see sculptures of her, I always find them to be more interesting to me than any other goddess. She isn't depicted as being as "physically beautiful" as Aphrodite or Artemis, but she has a certain beauty all her own, and when coupled with the fact that she's probably the most intelligent Olympian, makes her perfect. And she can be calm and docile when it is needed, tough and aggressive when it is needed, and has the wisdom to know which is which.

[PrincePhillipFan]

I always liked Athena as well I respect her for her virtues and teachings, but there's something though about her that can't make me completely like her. I guess it's because she goes pretty insane with rage frequently in some tales, like Medusa and Arachne.

I would say after Apollo, Artemis is my favorite and favorite female goddess. As a big lover of nature and animals myself, I love the virtues she stands for, as well as being a fiercly independent woman. An interesting fact I found out a while ago in one of my mythology textbooks is that Artemis' band of hunters were not just always virgin women and nymphs. She often traveled with two young male hunters by the name of Hippolytos and Orion as well; like the other huntresses of Artemis, the two boys pledged eternal chastity to Artemis and so they were allowed to join her hunting group. Just thought it was a very interesting fact, as it seems like Artemis is always portrayed as hunting only with virgin women, but actually there were virgin male hunters traveling in her band as well that she cared for.

[Disney's Divinity]

Well, to be fair about Athena (a favorite of mine, too), nearly all the gods go insane at some point. Some more than others (Hera comes to mind, but she had reason being married to Zeus). And it's interesting that male virgins were a part of Artemis' group, too. I've only heard of virginal maidens being with her and it always kind of irritated me (are male virgins not considered pure? ), so that kind of makes me a little happier.

Anyway, not to be off-topic, but I'm in a Mythology class this semester--one of my last electives--and it's strange to say that I've learned so much already. I've always been interested in mythology, but I've only ever looked at it from an amateurish position; the fact that I have at least a superficial knowledge of the mythology helps, so I can focus on concepts rather than names. Learning more about Greek life and practice makes a difference, I think (some of the ideas seem more complex/interesting than before). We'll be reading The Odyssey, several Sophocles plays, some old hymns, Hesiod's Theogony, and Ovid's Metamorphases. Anyway, just wanted to share because it's a fun experience for me--at the moment, it's the only class I look forward to everyday.

As a side note, it's weird being in this class having had a New Testament class last semester; you can see similar traits to some of the stories that way.

[PrincePhillipFan]

Well, to be fair about Athena (a favorite of mine, too), nearly all the gods go insane at some point. Some more than others (Hera comes to mind, but she had reason being married to Zeus). And it's interesting that male virgins were a part of Artemis' group, too. I've only heard of virginal maidens being with her and it always kind of irritated me (are male virgins not considered pure? ), so that kind of makes me a little happier.

Anyway, not to be off-topic, but I'm in a Mythology class this semester--one of my last electives--and it's strange to say that I've learned so much already. I've always been interested in mythology, but I've only ever looked at it from an amateurish position; the fact that I have at least a superficial knowledge of the mythology helps, so I can focus on concepts rather than names. Learning more about Greek life and practice makes a difference, I think (some of the ideas seem more complex/interesting than before). We'll be reading The Odyssey, several Sophocles plays, some old hymns, Hesiod's Theogony, and Ovid's Metamorphases. Anyway, just wanted to share because it's a fun experience for me--at the moment, it's the only class I look forward to everyday.

As a side note, it's weird being in this class having had a New Testament class last semester; you can see similar traits to some of the stories that way.

lol, that's very true, Divinity. All of the gods have their psycho moments, but hey doesn't everybody get petty and mad now and then? I guess my only beef with Atena is that she proclaims herself the goddess of wisdom and being wiser than all, but lets her own petty differences get the best of her. But then like you said, all the gods and ourselves get that way, so it's not really her fault.

I was also really happy to hear about Artemis' hunters. I need to look more into Hippolytos, but I know that Orion was a hunter whom Artemis loved dearly and accompanied her on all of her hunts.

And that's so cool that you have a mythology class! I signed up for a Greek/ Roman mythology class at my college, but since it was an experimental course it was sadly dropped due to lack of attendance. But at least I'll get to discuss the Greek gods and the mythology here in my humanities class which makes me really happy. I really hope you'll enjoy yours! Ovid's Metamorphosises is one of my favorite texts in Greek mythology. It's pretty much the equivalent of being the Bible to the Greek/ Roman religious world, as it details almost every well-known Greek story from the creation of Chaos with Uranus and Mother Gaia all the way to the rise of Caesar in Rome. I hope you'll enjoy yours! If you ever have the time to post, I'd love to hear what you'll be discussing in class.

The parallels also really don't surprise me. Christianity has taken a lot of things from the older, more ancient religions, such as the Greek story of the flood with Deucalion and his wife Pyhrra, and the even older story of Gilgamesh. There is also a story of Horus the risen savior in ancient Egyptian religion who shares quite a number of similarities to Jesus that predates Christianity by at least 800 to 1000 years.

[PrincePhillipFan]

This was a discussion journal that I did over at my DA account, but I think I'd like to post it here since it's one of my most well thought essays that I'm considering of turning in for my acting class. We had to do an essay that expresses what we're most interested in creatively and why. It just feels really close to my heart, and I'm very proud of it.

As most have known me for years, Greek Paganism and the ancient Grecian culture has had a huge influence on my life and is one of my major hobbies and areas of knowledge, particularly the Greek pantheon of Olympians. With the Olympus story that I’ve been working on now for almost a year and a half, and my recent discovering of the Percy Jackson series, it prompted me to muse just how my fascination with this started. One person recently asked me in my acting class why this form of belief and Paganism intrigues so much, especially since that it’s become one of my hobbies and part of my own religious beliefs.

I think the earliest form of my first foray into it was in the fourth grade when we began to read about the various Greek folklore and the different Olympians during our social studies hour. At the same time, Disney’s Hercules was out in theaters, and after seeing the film it further fueled my interest to want to learn more. At that time it was mostly just a mild interest, but when I continued my education of it next year, it continued to grow and was prompted when I discovered one book. It was a children’s picture book that I still cherish today and one that I credit mostly to my fascination with the Olympians and Greek Paganism – The Gods and Goddesses of Olympus, both written and illustrated by Aliki. The brief information on the gods had me more fascinated in finding each of their respective rules upon the Grecian world, but most importantly it was the illustrations. They are so simply done, yet colorful and beautiful at the same time, and were accurate to their descriptions of mythology. To this day when I think of Apollo and Artemis, their illustrations from that book first comes to mind.

Over the years, the more that Greek mythology was brought into discussion at school (our trips to museums and Greek Day during seventh grade at my junior high) I began to read more and more on my own. I started to grow fascinated with these tales, and in some cases even identifying with some of the gods in their position. I was often rather a loner and kept to myself in middle school as it was a pretty miserable time for me (but isn’t it for most everyone? ), and these were my forms of escapism for my imagination. I found comfort in these epic stories: the battles, the gods and feats of heroism, their flights of romance and passion, family squabbles. While most children were reading Harry Potter, I was immersing myself in the religious and epic tales collected by Homer, Ovid, and Virgil from the various parts of Greece. I also discovered an aspect of the tales that my school conveniently left out that peaked my interest as a questioning bisexual – the great homoerotic and romantic escapades of the various Greek gods and heroes. Apollo and his love for the prince Hyacinthus and the hunter Cyparissus; Pan and Daphnis; Heracles and Hylas; Artemis and Callisto. It was a time when I was still in the closet and afraid to come out, so these tales, particularly of Apollo, helped to comfort knowing that feelings such as these stretch back to even ancient religions. I was equally interested by the great many other love affairs and romances of the deities, such as the passion of Eros and Psyche, and Dionysus and the princess Ariadne. I guess when it comes to romance I can’t help but love being in love, which is probably why her and I are such a schmaltzy couple.

Over the subsequent years and to this day, the beliefs and stories of Greek paganism enthrall me. Particularly that of my favorite god Apollo. Since I first began to learn of the many various stories of him, I felt a sort of connection to his own personality. The more I read of him and what he represented, I discovered he was the god of many of the aspects that I embody myself: poet, musician, independent thinker, bisexual, wild and unruly in his youth, but calm and teaching moderation as he matured to become the god of youthful male beauty for all of Greece. Despite being raised primarily as a Christian all my life, determining my faith has always been hard as nothing really seems to suit my particular beliefs. But no matter what other beliefs I have, I always like to think of Apollo as my patron god/ spiritual guide wherever I go in this world, and that his inspiration has guided me to find what I have now in my life – a budding chance to be a poet and writer, and the devotion and love for my beautiful mate, which he himself always exhibited in either male or female.

So I guess to sum it, why Greek mythology? Why not? It’s been a part of my life since the earliest years of my life when I first discovered it and an interest that never dies in me. Within these epic stories, fascinating immortal lives of the gods, and the spiritual guide of Apollo, I find knowledge, peace, faith, and solace in always.

[yamiiguy]

I love Greek and Roman mythology, Norse as well. They're just so fascinating as it's not like modern day fiction or religion but is actually historical and is all around Europe in the form of architecture and museum collections. I'd love to just walk around Athens and Rome one day.

[Babaloo]

That is very beautifully written ! It’s so heartfelt and passionate! Your word choice is amazing, and the tone of the essay is just great! As a student studying history in university and more specifically classical history, and even more specifically, Greek culture, that has got to be one of the best pieces of personal opinions I have read concerning Greek culture and its deities. I’m very happy that you feel so strongly about something that you’re able to write a piece like that !

You should really submit that to your class!

I'm also very interested in Greek mythology. I took a course in it last year, and taking another course this year. My fascination started in grade five as well when we were learning about it in social studies (but mine was in French and I really didn't understand French that well so I didn't immerse myself in it; I understand it now). But what really got me into it, was that same year my teacher introduced us to a role-playing game on the computer called Zeus: Master of Olympus, and I fell in love with it! I just read as much as I could about it, and I haven't stopped since .

[IagoZazu]

But what really got me into it, was that same year my teacher introduced us to a role-playing game on the computer called Zeus: Master of Olympus, and I fell in love with it! I just read as much as I could about it, and I haven't stopped since .

I played that game as a little kid! That was a fun game for me too.

Anyway, I have always loved Greek Mythology. Everything about it fascinates me, from the monsters to the mythical characters. It contiues to inspire me to this day and for now onward.

[PrincePhillipFan]

Wow, it's great to hear that so many others here all have a liking and interest for it as well! Always makes me happy knowing that it inspires others and they're interested in learning more about it. Curiously, I never heard before of that Zeus: Master of Olympus game before, Babaloo. I'll have to look into it.

That is very beautifully written ! It’s so heartfelt and passionate! Your word choice is amazing, and the tone of the essay is just great! As a student studying history in university and more specifically classical history, and even more specifically, Greek culture, that has got to be one of the best pieces of personal opinions I have read concerning Greek culture and its deities. I’m very happy that you feel so strongly about something that you’re able to write a piece like that !

You should really submit that to your class!

Thank you so much! I'll definitely then submit it in for my class. I'm glad that you liked it so much!

And it makes me so happy hearing that there are Greek mythology and culture classes out there in many other colleges. I'm still a bit miffed that my one for this semester got cancelled due to lack of participation, but at least I get to do a Greek Gods report for the class.

If you'd like to, I'd love to hear what you're currently discussing in class or what aspects of Greek life and religion is the topic. I love hearing any kind of information that I might not have known before.

[Siren]

I must say Demeter is my favorite. She is the "earth mother". She is goddess of marriage, the harvest, the seasons, the cycle of life and death, and sacred laws.

[PrincePhillipFan]

It's interesting that you pick Demeter, Siren, since I think she's definitely one of the most overlooked/ underrated of the Olympians. She bestowed so many gifts to mankind in the legends of Mythos, such as grain, vegetation, teaching the art of agriculture.

I actually never heard though of her being the goddess of marriage, as that position is mostly always assumed to Hera being the patroness of it. Are there any tales that center around Demeter to be involved with marriage as well?

[IagoZazu]

I think my favorite gods would have to be Poseidon and Hermes. As far as goddesses go, I like Athena and Aphrodite.

Intrestedly, they are often the ones that start all the problems for the mortals. Almost all of the Greek monsters are a result of the wrath or jealousy of a God or Goddess. You have Poseidon creating the Minotaur by making King Minos' wife fall in love with a white bull when he didn't sacriface the bull for him and Athena turning Medusa hideous because she claimed to be more beautiful than her. It often takes the hero (who is usually backed by a god or goddess) to take out the monster.

What's some of your favorite Greek monsters? I like the Minotaur, Medusa, and the Cyclops among others.

[Disney's Divinity]

I've always like Medusa; I think just because of the way she was depicted in the Hercules TV series--she was depressingly sad/sweet. Recently, I've become interested in Typhoeus. And Echidna was always weirdly interesting. The Lotus Eaters are others.

It's interesting that you pick Demeter, Siren, since I think she's definitely one of the most overlooked/ underrated of the Olympians.

Not nearly as much as Hestia though. Tbh, I'd never even heard of Hestia until Percy Jackson and the Olympians--that's so sad of me.

Also, just for an update about my Mythology class, for most of the first month we just went over each of the individual gods (and a few other important figures, like Prometheus), and the creation myths. I think you might've enjoyed it--we seemed to pay special attention to Apollo, Hermes and Aphrodite.

Now, we've moved on to the Trojan War and The Odyssey, and several plays (Iphigenia at Aulis, Trojan Women). That Iphigenia story was terrible--we read the play first and in that version, Iphigenia is magically transported to safety for her bravery of accepting her sacrifice. With that, I thought it was very similar to the story of Abraham (and God makes him think he has to kill his son, but at the last second God says he doesn't have to), but then in the class I found out that, in the myth, she actually was killed. I thought it was so sad, and I really hated Artemis and Agamemnon for it. Anyway, I just think the Trojan War myths are so fascinating because of all the details, with this and this and this happening because such-and-such pissed off this god, and so on. We only have to read The Odyssey, but my classes are off for about 10 days in the next week, so I think I'll go check out The Illiad and read it, too (the teacher references it a lot).

I mean, a lot of the material were covering is predictably the most basic, but the teacher adds a lot to it. I'm enjoying it. Oh, and I did like your journal; I read it when you first posted, but wasn't sure what to say in response.

[PrincePhillipFan]

I think my favorite gods would have to be Poseidon and Hermes. As far as goddesses go, I like Athena and Aphrodite.

Hermes and Aphrodite are two of my top favorites as well. I especially revere Hermes since more than any other god, he's the one who came to so many mortals in distress. He seemed to have a real affinity for mankind, and enjoyed helping them out whenever he could.

For my favorite monster, I think I would chose Medusa as a gorgon. Might seem kind of cliche, but there's something so deadly about her apperance I like, yet I have a twinge of sympathy for her for what Poseidon and Athena both did to her.

Not nearly as much as Hestia though. Tbh, I'd never even heard of Hestia until Percy Jackson and the Olympians--that's so sad of me.

I agree, Hestia is sadly overlooked than any other Olympian. I greatly respect her since I first read about her in seventh grade, as unlike all the other gods, she never once quarreled with anyone else and was the most modest and sweet natured. It's kind of interesting that she's so overlooked now considering her huge importance in Greece and Rome. Almost every Greek and Roman household worshipped her at the central hearth and prayed to her first at meals for protection of their home. Many city states also had a central hearth where they worshipped Hestia, as she watched over and protected the daily affairs of both private and public life.

Also, just for an update about my Mythology class, for most of the first month we just went over each of the individual gods (and a few other important figures, like Prometheus), and the creation myths. I think you might've enjoyed it--we seemed to pay special attention to Apollo, Hermes and Aphrodite.

Now, we've moved on to the Trojan War and The Odyssey, and several plays (Iphigenia at Aulis, Trojan Women). That Iphigenia story was terrible--we read the play first and in that version, Iphigenia is magically transported to safety for her bravery of accepting her sacrifice. With that, I thought it was very similar to the story of Abraham (and God makes him think he has to kill his son, but at the last second God says he doesn't have to), but then in the class I found out that, in the myth, she actually was killed. I thought it was so sad, and I really hated Artemis and Agamemnon for it. Anyway, I just think the Trojan War myths are so fascinating because of all the details, with this and this and this happening because such-and-such pissed off this god, and so on. We only have to read The Odyssey, but my classes are off for about 10 days in the next week, so I think I'll go check out The Illiad and read it, too (the teacher references it a lot).

Yay! It always makes me happy to hear attention is paid to three of my favorite gods.

It's interesting that you list Iphigenia as I never heard of that tale before and will have to look it up now. I'm really happy that this thread is supply me with information I never heard of before. And I'm fascinated a lot with the Mythos surrounding the Trojan War as well. I always particularly sided with the Trojans myself during the war, as I pretty much found Odysseus and Achilles to be a bit of jerks, although Paris himself was a bit of wuss. I think it's also probably because Apollo sided with the Trojans during the war, so I do as well. I just find it rather disgusting on Achilles' part of raping Troilus, the prince of Troy and Apollo's son, and then murdering him afterwards. At least Apollo later got payback by helping to guide Paris' arrow into Achilles' heel.

I mean, a lot of the material were covering is predictably the most basic, but the teacher adds a lot to it. I'm enjoying it. Oh, and I did like your journal; I read it when you first posted, but wasn't sure what to say in response.

Thank you. Just that you read it means a lot that people care to read it and understand why it means so much to me.

I'm really looking forward to hearing what else you discuss in class as well. I totally envy you being able to attend one.

[Disney's Divinity]

The thing I find interesting about Hestia--that we talked about--is the fact that she was probably honored more than any other god. Since every temple had a hearth in which sacrifices were burned upon, she got a share out of all the gods' sacrifices. I also found it interesting that she's actually the eldest Olympian, too (for some reason I never thought about the order of birth of the first six).

And, yeah, I was surprised by how little I liked any of the Greeks involved in the war (Agamemnon, Menelaus, Ulysses, Achilles, Odysseus, Neoptolemus, etc. seemed to all be jerks). But the person I liked the least was Helen, tbh, since she caused everything (though I have some sympathy for her, too) and yet she doesn't even get punishment--Menelaus is too lust-obsessed to kill her like the Greeks wanted (though he didn't mind killing his brother's daughter). Though, my teacher went on to explain, the overly brutal actions of the Greeks were part of the reason they had such a hard way home after the war (Agamemnon killed by Clytemnestra, Odysseus delayed for 10 years, etc.).

But I hadn't heard of that Troilus story before now. My teacher seems to sense discomfort among the class when things like homosexuality come up (hence she called Ganymede and Hyacinth "just friends" of the gods--lmao). I only heard about Polyxena being killed; so I'm thinking it was deliberate that the teacher didn't tell us about Troilus. I just wikipedia'd Troilus, and it says that Apollo had lust for him (and wanted to rape him), but it only says Troilus was beheaded in Apollo's temple after. But you're probably right about him having been raped. Either way, it does mention a prophecy that Troilus needed to be killed to conquer Troy, so...I guess it was inevitable for him. (It seems there were a lot of prophecies involved with this war myth)

[PrincePhillipFan]

The thing I find interesting about Hestia--that we talked about--is the fact that she was probably honored more than any other god. Since every temple had a hearth in which sacrifices were burned upon, she got a share out of all the gods' sacrifices. I also found it interesting that she's actually the eldest Olympian, too (for some reason I never thought about the order of birth of the first six).

Same here. I find it a shame that she's often so overlooked in mythology lectures when she was played such a large role of worship and safety in the Greek homes. Another interesting tidbit I found is that the term "Vestal Virgins" comes from her. I heard it since I was young but didn't really know what it meant until I discovered her Roman name was Vesta, and the city would select a group of virgin women to attend the central hearth at all times.

And, yeah, I was surprised by how little I liked any of the Greeks involved in the war (Agamemnon, Menelaus, Ulysses, Achilles, Odysseus, Neoptolemus, etc. seemed to all be jerks). But the person I liked the least was Helen, tbh, since she caused everything (though I have some sympathy for her, too) and yet she doesn't even get punishment--Menelaus is too lust-obsessed to kill her like the Greeks wanted (though he didn't mind killing his brother's daughter). Though, my teacher went on to explain, the overly brutal actions of the Greeks were part of the reason they had such a hard way home after the war (Agamemnon killed by Clytemnestra, Odysseus delayed for 10 years, etc.).

I agree about Helen. She seemed like such a shameless flirt throughout the entire thing, and didn't even get a computtenance for anything from it. I think Odysseus though annoys me the most. "Waaah! I wanna go home!...Ooh, look at that island! Let's stop there and explore!...Waah, it had a sorceress who tried to kill me and all my men. I miss my wife. I wanna go home...Hey, let's stop there!"

But I hadn't heard of that Troilus story before now. My teacher seems to sense discomfort among the class when things like homosexuality come up (hence she called Ganymede and Hyacinth "just friends" of the gods--lmao). I only heard about Polyxena being killed; so I'm thinking it was deliberate that the teacher didn't tell us about Troilus. I just wikipedia'd Troilus, and it says that Apollo had lust for him (and wanted to rape him), but it only says Troilus was beheaded in Apollo's temple after. But you're probably right about him having been raped. Either way, it does mention a prophecy that Troilus needed to be killed to conquer Troy, so...I guess it was inevitable for him. (It seems there were a lot of prophecies involved with this war myth

I find it a bit sad that the teacher didn't go over the homosexual affairs of the gods in the class and kind of whitewashed over it, considering it's a higher level class. Although I do find it funny that she referred to them as "friends" lol.

And just a correction, but I think you meant Achilles instead of Apollo. But yeah, I heard two differing versions depending on the story. In both versions I know it identifies that Achilles was tempted and lusted after Troilus greatly. However one account I read said he proceeded to rape the prince and then after murdered him, while another says he just proceeded to leer upon him while he was naked and then beheaded him from behind. Either way, I think Achilles was a bit of a dickweed in that respect. And yeah, pretty much whenever Apollo or one of his priestesses foretold of an oracle or prophecy, you pretty much can't escape it.

[IagoZazu]

Hermes and Aphrodite are two of my top favorites as well. I especially revere Hermes since more than any other god, he's the one who came to so many mortals in distress. He seemed to have a real affinity for mankind, and enjoyed helping them out whenever he could.

For my favorite monster, I think I would chose Medusa as a gorgon. Might seem kind of cliche, but there's something so deadly about her apperance I like, yet I have a twinge of sympathy for her for what Poseidon and Athena both did to her.

That's what I like about Hermes too. He's a helping god who actually tries to help the mortals out. Poseidon on the other hand was a brutal god from what I remember reading who made Odyssess go through years of misadventures because he blinded Polyphemus, his cyclops son.

I don't feel much sympathy for Medusa because she was boasting about how more beautiful she was than Athena. Let's face it, the way the gods and goddesses were, she was just asking for it.

[Margos]

"Waaah! I wanna go home!...Ooh, look at that island! Let's stop there and explore!...Waah, it had a sorceress who tried to kill me and all my men. I miss my wife. I wanna go home...Hey, let's stop there!"

Was he a full-blood mortal or a demigod? Because if he was a demigod, maybe that's where Riordan got the idea for the Demigod ADHD in the Percy Jackson series.

[PrincePhillipFan]

That's what I like about Hermes too. He's a helping god who actually tries to help the mortals out. Poseidon on the other hand was a brutal god from what I remember reading who made Odyssess go through years of misadventures because he blinded Polyphemus, his cyclops son.

Yeah, Poseidon was one certainly never to be cross. He always seemed to have a grudge especially against the whole city of Troy as well, and did everything he could to destroy it by seas. I always found it interesting how in the Trojan War, the gods chose sides or were mostly neutral.

For the Greeks: Athena, Poseidon, Hermes, Hera, Hephaestus
For the Trojans: Apollo, Artemis, Aphrodite, Ares
Neutral: Zeus, Hestia, Demeter, Hades, Dionysus

I heard conflicting stories about Medusa. As usual, there seems to be two sides to every story. One I heard was Poseidon and Medusa were lovers, and she was a boastful woman like you described. Another version I heard was that he actually raped her in Athena's temple, and then fled to avoid the wrath of his niece. Either way, one or the other was a boastful jerk.

Was he a full-blood mortal or a demigod? Because if he was a demigod, maybe that's where Riordan got the idea for the Demigod ADHD in the Percy Jackson series.

I think Odysseus was actually a mortal king in all the background stories I read of him and his origins. I have ADHD myself, and even I never acted as impulsively as he did thankfully.