Beauty and the Beast Discussion

[Escapay]

Hmm, I think I may have gotten the souffle thing. You just don't want to do anything if your unhappy, but if you're happy you may want to do too much and get too excited.

Finally, someone got it! In all the years that I've said the quote to friends and family, no one ever got it unless I explained it to them! They always figure a happy girl is scatterbrained and an unhappy one is distracted.

I didn't quote the rest because, well, I don't think she came to the castle thinking part of it was to tell him she was his friend, I think they both already knew that, I think it was all about saving him. <snip> Maybe they thought they were friends but then realized it was more romantic later. I think when Belle said she loved him, she meant beyond friends. You don't french a friend like that, which is exactly what she did after she said she loved him.

First, it's WIST time with the bolded parts, and also, I still feel she came back to tell him. It all goes back to my "it's not really true until you say it out loud" theory, as Belle wanted to finally and ultimately proclaim her friendship (and, of course, love) for him. So yes, she is primarily going back to save him, but also she wants to share that earth-shattering mind-blowing make-anyone-weak-at-the-knees proclamation of friendship...and love. There's a great song from the 80s called "Friends and Lovers" which essentially is the same idea, though it plays more towards the "Lovers" angle (it was written as a love ballad for Shane and Kimberly on Days of our Lives). But it still gets the same message across: "you're my friend, and I want you know know that."

I did wonder if the Beast could have transformed into a human corpse, but I think the stab was either not fatal or the spell returned him to his exact former self (physically, of course) so it erased the wound. I guess the spell could have healed the wound as reward, like how I wondered if the prince never aged or the spell just decided to remove the aging as reward.

You mean this?

WIST#21:
Disney Duster: Time must have stopped, or the magic spell was like "since you learned your lesson...we'll let ya look young and hot, too."

As for the Enchantress, I thought the magic almost had a mind of it's own and did everything that would make Belle and the prince happy, but I could understand if the Enchantress was like some godly figure who knew what was going on and sent down the sparkles. Somehow I'd like to think she died but her magic lived on, and I have no idea why, maybe because I think the Enchantress was a b*tch

The idea of Enchantress always watching (or keeping his curse in the corner of her mind, ready to check on him when necessary), was not really something I got from the movie, it was partly from my own BATB treatment and also just some random musings in the air. Kind of like how Mufasa appears to Simba in The Lion King (*gasp*...I'm referencing TLK?). He only appears to Simba that one time, but for all we know, he's been watching him ever since the little creep ran away. With the Enchantress, there's always the likelihood that she was interested in every curse she made, and would watch all her victims to know when their punishment was over, if they learned their lesson, etc.

Plus, it's more chilling to have the idea of Big <strike>Brother</strike> B*tch always watching.

I still don't see why the stab would be fatal if it was just in his back and he was a strong Beast.

We could assume that he had the same human physiology inside, with all the organs in the same place, but he just looked like a beast. Where he was stabbed looks to be a rather vital place, it may have hit his spinal column, or if it was lower, his kidneys. (I'm not too good on the human body, and I'm basing this all on what I remember of the scene).

But either way, I don't think the stab was fatal either, though it was fatal enough emotionally (going back to the "can't a guy catch a break?" thinking) that Beast thought it was fatal.

Well, the dialogue is confusing and perhaps even sexist.

It really makes a lot of sense when it's viewed with the movie. Basically, Elise has been under the watchful eye of her manager WF Robinson, and he told her that one day, a man would come and change her life forever (or something similar), and that she would know who he was. And until then, she really would not need to pursue any romantic entanglements, as no man would really be the one unless she decided he was.

Then she meets Richard, who's traveled through time to meet her (yeah...), and indeed, he has changed her life in ways she never imagined. She's not sure if he's that "one" that Robinson told her about, but for the first time, she's willing to pursue some kind of relationship, to see if he is. When he sits in to watch her perform in a play at the Grand Hotel, she initially follows the script, then suddenly deviates and goes into her monologue. It's not a part of the play at all, but she realizes that Richard indeed IS the one, and she's speaking to him, and him alone. It's love at its most raw and most perplexing state. It's a love that exists solely to exist, and it permeates the air around us, but only few people will ever recognize it and embrace its goodness. The fact that she can steer it all back to the play is convenient too.

(I originally had a couple paragraphs explaining how I thought the entire thing was interpreted, but I don't want it to hinder your eventual viewing of the movie despite me somewhat explaining portions already, so I'll leave it at that for now.

I'm pretty much the polar opposite...

Wait, so you get more emotional with movies...than with people in real life? Or you just get that emotional more often with movies than people in real life?

I think it's pretty balanced how emotional I get in life or watching movies, but I tend to actually *show* the emotion more when watching a movie than I do with real life. I think earlier in this thread I said that while I don't wear my emotions on my sleeve, I may openly show certain feelings and such around certain people.

If you really wanna get emotional with your "beast", watch The History Boys, namely the part where Posner is singing "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered".

Thank you, but I don't want to watch romantic movies to deliberately feel sad or love for my beast. I think in a way, in another plane, it almost cheapens real love or will present ideas that will never happen to me and my beast.

Sorry, I didn't know you felt that way about it (or romance films). I was really recommending it solely for the torch song (ahh, the torch song...my favorite type of song in a musical), as it seemed the best description of your relationship with your beast

Which also brings me to why I recently am not sure if I want to act, because I don't want to use my real feelings for my beast in a character who's supposed to love some girl in some musical!

That's why it's called acting, hon!

But I can see where you're coming from. I almost never feel connected to a character I portray (in the few and far between times that I've acted in a play, I prefer either writing them or doing backstage work), and while it's beneficial for some to tap into their own real feelings, I've never liked that method. Hehe, method.

Then again, people make the argument that no matter how great an actor someone is, there are some emotions you just can't fake, and I think love can be one of them (though it depends on how well or how bad the role is written, and how great or how lousy the actor is).

except you did confuse me when you said:

...but I'm sure there's enough material (along with more dramatic and character building elements to cut down on the songs) that would help Disney to make a live-action movie.

I thought you liked musicals. Why cut down the songs? Can't the songs be dramatic and character building, which is usually what good songwriters strive for in musicals? And live-action musicals can have lots of singing...

I love musicals, but I usually prefer if its story benefits from the songs, and not the other way around (a bunch of songs that have to be connected via a story...like Newsies). There are usually two schools of musical, the first is "when you've got nothing left to say, sing a song", and the second is "when you've got a lot to say, sing a song". I usually prefer the second, where the mere dialogue is not enough to convey a person's thoughts, and so they break out into song.

I guess it comes from my preference to dialogue over music, as I love dialogue-heavy scenes in both film and TV (and love writing dialogue as well). With Beauty and the Beast, I felt that for the animated version, the amount of songs they had was fine, as it was balanced out with dialogue, and all within a reasonable runtime. For live-action musicals, having it be song after song with only a few instances of dialogue to string them together, it rarely ever succeeds (at least to me). That's why I said for more dramatic/character building moments to cut down on the songs. Some parts of the story I feel are better expressed through a well-written scene, while others will shine as a song.

I've heard a couple songs from the Broadway version (since they're in the Classic Disney CDs), "Home" and "If I Can't Love Her". While I love the arrangement for both (especially how some notes in the latter echo the opening notes of the animated film), I felt that both are pretty much there for padding, and if I had to pick one of them to keep, it'd probably be "Home".

Then again, I haven't heard the other songs yet, or seen the musical (dammit...) so there may be more padding to come and those two may turn out to be the most essential new songs...

As for Beauty and the Beast's stage version, if you ever want to see your B&B a live-action movie musical (if I ever become a director, I would like to come to you to help me make your dream come true when I don't have other projects)

"IF is the most powerful word in the English Language" (Tegan, Castrovalva).

I'm holding you to that offer, and know that it's mutual (I'd love to help when you bring live-action Cindy to screen!).

(And two Doctor Who references in a row, netty will be so proud! Although one's slightly modified!)

, you should research what critics hated about it. Almost every theater geek and critic says Disney's shows only make money and last on Broadway because of tourists. This bars Tarzan because that was not a hit movie, it needs to be a Disney classic to work, and it bars The Lion King because that actually is what critics and theater geeks consider a good show, more for the theatrics than the story and songs, though, I believe.

I've read a few reviews of the Broadway version, but I had no idea that they were really that vile towards it! Makes me a bit sad that they're criticizing it based more on the Disney name than on the show's own merits (then again, maybe the show's own merits are worth the criticisms?).

One thing that is not a big spoiler is the enchanted objects. Instead of actually being the objects when Belle meets them, they are slowly transforming until they are fully objects by the spell's end. This makes them more believable because then they can be half human half objects and you can see how this works better for live theater. The actors can move better, show their face and facial expressions, and be human-sized! But some people thought it added a more emotional element as the castle servants lose their humanity.

Oh wow, I don't think I've heard about that! I'm not sure if I'd want to work it into my treatment (it's more gothic in nature and less "magical" in the happy-sparkles-sense), but I love the idea of slowly losing one's humanity (which is also countered/mirrored in Beast, as he's slowly gaining it back).

Until it works again, it's a very cute animation.

I meant how often should I check to see if it is working?

I honestly have no idea. Once a week, if you have the time? I hope the site isn't down for good!

Scalps

OMG! I love you (as much as a friend you know on the internet can)!

Ditto.

Scaps
Scajs
Scups
Scucs
Scars
Shaps

[Disney Duster]

I'm glad to see UncleEd is back!

There are also people who find anything out there attractive. Hence why some do and some don't but in animation you're either handsome or ugly by design rules.

But what about when you said:

In fairy tales all the girls are attractive and the prices are always handsome. It's just how it is. No one wants to read an idealistic story about a beast who tuirns into an ugly bald guy.

So if the prince was intended to be handsome, and then the women you talked to said he wasn't, my point was proven.

Wild Life still sounded too much like The Wild....

There is a movement that claims it never happened and was just a propaganda thing and this isn't some fringe skin head movement. There are college professors around the world that teach this. So not even the facts can sway some minds.

I know about that. I think if you make someone sit down with you and you present the facts, they would have to believe it unless they started going into "well, maybe you and I don't exist" territory, but in this world we try to be more civil and kind and not make people do things. You yourself are proof that you won't listen to everything people are saying because losing what you believe in may crush you. And you know, I kind of like that humans can make their own worlds and believe what they want as their own reality. Except when it interferes in other people's real lives, in real reality.

In the original version he beheaded them and put their heads on stakes in the village square and the birds pecked out their eyes.

I'm a huge Cinderella fan and have done a lot to find out about the movie's roots, but I've never heard that was the original story before. May I ask where you read and heard that? As far as the official Grimm's and Perrault's stories were written, that version is not how either of them went. The Grimm's stepsister's eyes were pecked out, but the prince didn't have any part in their punishment.

People who hate fairy tales always say things like that but I don't buy the feminazi view of the world. Those stories never harmed anyone and the same great women in history grew up with them so you can't blame stories for people's problems.

Well, to be honest, I do wonder if my Cinderella obsession is why I have not yet gotten a job and have hoped that a boyfriend would ask me to move in with him and I wouldn't have to do anything. But of course, then you would just call me pathetic for that. I won't deny that. But the message still is harmful in that.

Bad and wrong are the same thing. Wrong things are never good for you and bad things are never right. Quit being a politically correct, wishy washy liberal and stand with your wrong opinions.

Even something bad can be in opinion, because some people like pain ec., or some bad things for some people can be good for others, like someone losing a contest, etc. But anyway, I meant the messages were bad because they are bad for the women who would follow them. But wrong and bad are different. I think punishing people is wrong, some people thing it's right, but the person being punished would say getting punished for something is a bad thing that happened to them.

Or for another example, you could say the holocaust never happened, which would be wrong. Or you could say the holocaust happened, which would be right, but the holocaust was bad.

No, they're not there and I highly doubt any women stay with abusive men because of this fairy tale. If they are then they're just pathetic and deserve whatever misfortune comes their way.

That doesn't sound very kind or Christian.

All of the stuff she talks about in the Cinderella story she just read applies to her situation. I stand by that.

I think it was supposed to be a different fairy tale. There's no swordfighting in any version I know, unless they were making a new version. I doubt Disney would ever cross-fairy tales though (inserting characters from other films isn't the same thing). And there isn't any true love's kiss in Cinderella or even in the story she was reading! It's just "far off places, magic spells, daring swordfights, and a prince in disguise" and "here's where she meets Prince Charming, but she won't discover that it's him till chapter 3!"

I forget which version (broadway or animated) but one says "her love" and the other says "their love" and this was done to open it up to gay love. It was either their love was there first and on Brodway Disney changed it after complaints or vice versa.

Wow! I wish you had said this earlier Ed! I went to Youtube to watch the prologue, and it said, "If he could learn to love another and earn her love in return." That means the spell did have to be broken by a girl, and romantic love was the one intended! I guess Broadway changed it to "their". Hear that Escapay, it was romantic love all this time, almost anything I said was uneeded.

I guess the Enchantress knew the prince was straight, but she seems to know everything about him anyway, and perhaps watched over him to lift the spell as we said. However, it's rather odd, because she wasn't expecting the prince to fall in love her as an old woman...why would she make it be romantic love?

"Why can't the Beast just love someone without romance or sex?"

Uh, just when did the Beast have sex with Belle? I missed that version.

Well, sex and romantic love are always inter-linked. If you romantically loved someone but you didn't want to have sex with them, that would be odd. Sex without love is possible, but I don't know about romantic love without sex. I don't know enough right now in my own relationships to say, but this is what I believe so far. And if you romantically love someone, I do believe there has to be physical, and thus sexual attraction in there...maybe not, I don't know.

But by sex I meant anything related to sex, including the attraction to a beautiful girl, or just the fact that female is her sex and it's about the kind of love he only feels for the female sex.

And fetuses are not human babies....If this were true then no one would be hooking up online.

Uh, for your information I think abortion is wrong and right now believe it should be illegal unless the baby would kill the mother and I believe we get souls from conception. As for the love thing, I also said in this thread that I thought people could still love someone who doesn't love them, but my psychologist said that you can have feelings for someone but you're still not in love with them unless they love you back.

Oh, and thye boy I love, my beast, isn't ugly. And do not even bother to comment on that, because I will only keep telling you the truth that he isn't ugly.

ESCAPAY now onto you...

I'm glad I actually got the souffle thing, thank you for the pink elephant!

I don't remember that friend of Barbie's. Thank you also for the WIST, that makes me so happy. Belle definately could have wanted to go back that bad to tell him how she felt, friend or lover or both, but she would have gone back anyway, didn't she say she would...? It doesn't really matter. I think I got what you were saying. She thought they were just friends, even though the Beast said he loved her when she left, and then she said she loved him and it was true because she said it and that broke the spell. Hope that was what you meant.

As I noted above, now it seems the spell definately intended romantic love so it had to happen sometime. I still think they fell in romantic love during Belle's stay, especially during the dancing, and maybe Belle didn't relaize it because I don't think you do realize good or happy things until later or she was like "Hello, he's a different species, actually a combination of different speci, I can't...wait, maybe I can..."

And yes I did mean WIST #21!

The idea of Enchantress always watching (or keeping his curse in the corner of her mind, ready to check on him when necessary), was not really something I got from the movie, it was partly from my own BATB treatment and also just some random musings in the air. Kind of like how Mufasa appears to Simba in The Lion King (*gasp*...I'm referencing TLK?). He only appears to Simba that one time, but for all we know, he's been watching him ever since the little creep ran away. With the Enchantress, there's always the likelihood that she was interested in every curse she made, and would watch all her victims to know when their punishment was over, if they learned their lesson, etc.

Plus, it's more chilling to have the idea of Big <strike>Brother</strike> B*tch always watching.

Yes it's more chilling that way, wondering about it is more ominous and mysterious like Beauty and the Beast seems all the time. I must have forgotten, did you direct a B&TB play somewhere, not supposed to be Disney's version? And Mufasa's ghost...I think he's aways in the stars watching, right? All the kings are looking down on everything? Either that or Rafiki's magic conjured the ghost, and called him because Simba needed him.

We could assume that he had the same human physiology inside, with all the organs in the same place, but he just looked like a beast. Where he was stabbed looks to be a rather vital place, it may have hit his spinal column, or if it was lower, his kidneys. (I'm not too good on the human body, and I'm basing this all on what I remember of the scene).

But either way, I don't think the stab was fatal either, though it was fatal enough emotionally (going back to the "can't a guy catch a break?" thinking) that Beast thought it was fatal.

I actually like Muke for some reason. It's hard to know if the Beast was still somehwat humanoid. He could stand, and talk, but was that just a human mind controlling the beast parts? He had human eyes, though, right? Anyway, I guess neither of us know enough about physics or medicine to know if it was in the right place or done in the right way to kill him, but the Beast giving up on life, I just don't see why he would when Belle came back. Of course "I love you" was really powerful, but I would also strive to live if the one I loved was just there with me.

Um, I'll just watch Somewhere In Time when I can, and then I'll probably understand. Although it's really weird that you listen to your manager tell you a man will change your life (also a little sexist...?), and really weird she didn't pursue anything until a man came in that seemed to be the life-changer.

I think it's pretty balanced how emotional I get in life or watching movies, but I tend to actually *show* the emotion more when watching a movie than I do with real life. I think earlier in this thread I said that while I don't wear my emotions on my sleeve, I may openly show certain feelings and such around certain people.

Oh. Okay. Aw.

Sorry, I didn't know you felt that way about it (or romance films). I was really recommending it solely for the torch song (ahh, the torch song...my favorite type of song in a musical), as it seemed the best description of your relationship with your beast.

I thought The History Boys was a play on Broadway, like last year. I remember seeing some kid with a gun on the Tonys. Anyway, I will watch romantic films to get romantic if he wants to, but other than that I'd just like to watch a movie to watch a movie, if it looks interesting or princessy, etc. Ha, all the princess films are about romance.

Or maybe I just don't want to feel the romance from romantic films because they're all straight! Or at least the well-known mainstream ones that coem to theaters or are considered the best. But I've been watching a gay show with a relationship I think is similar to mine and I'm more rooting for them to get together than I might with other, straight characters.

But I can see where you're coming from. I almost never feel connected to a character I portray (in the few and far between times that I've acted in a play, I prefer either writing them or doing backstage work), and while it's beneficial for some to tap into their own real feelings, I've never liked that method. Hehe, method.

Then again, people make the argument that no matter how great an actor someone is, there are some emotions you just can't fake, and I think love can be one of them (though it depends on how well or how bad the role is written, and how great or how lousy the actor is).

Hmm, yes I think now I would rather direct than act, like I said I want to become a director someday. But maybe I can do both, many actors have become directors. I haven't acted in enough or been told about my acting enough to know about what I can fake and what I can't. I may have to face the fact that if I don't learn how to make tears on stage I might not make it. Because I've recently cried because of love, you can see why I don't want to do that. We're actually supposed to use this method of going back into your childhood and feeling the same way you felt in a memory to make yourself produce the same effects, like cry if you cried back then. I have yet to do that. Anyway I'm glad you share some of my same feelings on acting.

Uh, everything you said about lie-action B&TB, of course the songs should benefit the story, and I also agree songs should be used to say a lot in a way dialogue can't do, instead of singing because of whatever. Hmm, I think Sweeney Todd which was a great film has lots of singing and little dialogue, no songs were changed to dialogue and it had so much singing people considered the original musical an opera. But for the version you want perhaps it should be like how Beauty and the Beast is already on film, the songs and dialogue are more balanced. But I think songs can do dramatic character building moments, like "Moments in the Woods" from Into the Woods where the singer thinks of what just happened and arrives at a realization at the end and after she did a bad deed she resolves. Anyway, you're right some parts may be better as dialogue, others as songs.

Hmm, well I think "Home" and "If I Can't Love Her" are unfortunately what people think are some of the best and are their favorites of the musical, so...well, would you want new songs written for the movie? Personally I'd like to try and use the musical's songs, just perhaps with changes. And we'd consult Menken. People would be expecting something between the cartoon (ugh that's what Broadway geeks and critics use to belittle Disney's shows) and the musical.

I'm glad you're holding me to my offer, and that you'd even help me with Cinderella. I just thought of how it would be meeting you in real life, and I hope that it wouldn't be so different from online that it's all awkward.

I heard someone, I thought I read somewhere else it was Stephen Shwartz but Jim Hill just says a "Broadway vet" said:

"When 'Beauty and the Beast' opened on Broadway back in 1994, that show got only one good review but then went on to run for 13 years. So there's really no point in worrying about 'Mermaid' 's reviews. Disney will just do what they did with 'Beast.' This show's going to run for years.

That's exactly the kind of thing Broadway snobs think, that Disney's shows just are successful because of the name and the classics they're based on. I don't think it only got one good review, I actually thought it did critically okay! I don't know, research it. I would myself, but I'm afraid of spoilers and also don't have much time on the computer. I may look for a lot of reviews one day.

I'll check that site out at least once a week.

By the way, that L thing was from something me and my friend do all the time to be weird.

[Escapay]

There are also people who find anything out there attractive.

Like objectophiles in Boston Legal. Who knew a utility box and an alarm clock could be so sexy?

Hear that Escapay, it was romantic love all this time, almost anything I said was unneeded.

Unneeded, but a lot of enjoyable and informative reading. We covered a lot of ground, even if in the end, it was put to rest with a simple pronoun!

I guess the Enchantress knew the prince was straight, but she seems to know everything about him anyway, and perhaps watched over him to lift the spell as we said. However, it's rather odd, because she wasn't expecting the prince to fall in love her as an old woman...why would she make it be romantic love?

If we assume she knew nothing about him until she appeared at his doorstep, then all she was expecting a simple act of kindness, which he did not show, and so she probably figured, "Okay, buddy, if you won't do this for me, I'll make your curse even worse!". Beast essentially was a narcissist before he was cursed, so what better spell than one in which he would have to fall in love with someone else?

"Why can't the Beast just love someone without romance or sex?"

Uh, just when did the Beast have sex with Belle? I missed that version.

Sex without love is possible, but I don't know about romantic love without sex.

While I don't know of any couples personally, I'm sure somewhere in the world there are couples in committed relationships (be it marriage or otherwise) who choose to remain celibate. It is an uncommon type of marriage that has been done in the past (such as the Shakers of the late 1700s), but is rarely heard of today.

I believe we get souls from conception.

Ditto.

I don't remember that friend of Barbie's.

She was the only one who was allowed to get married, and the only one allowed to get pregnant. There actually was some controversy when the "Pregnant Midge" doll was sold in stores!

(how sad that I can remember stupid stuff like that but I can't remember the words to the BATB prologue!)

Hope that was what you meant.

Yep!

I must have forgotten, did you direct a B&TB play somewhere, not supposed to be Disney's version?

No, but I did "direct" my quasi-adaptation of the story for my Playwriting class's end-of-term presentation simply called "Play Readings". I used quotations for direct because it wasn't a sets-and-costumes performance. The emphasis of the end-of-term presentation was on the playwright's words, so we weren't allowed to have our actors in costume or move about on a set. Instead...they all had to stand in line on stage and recite their lines how they would if they were in a real play, and a narrator would read stage directions that would help the audience visualize what was happening.

However, to get my actors to properly understand their characters, during our rehearsals I had them act it out (with blocking and a minimal set to boot!) instead of just memorize the lines. I wanted them to really get comfortable in the roles, so that when they did do the play reading, it wouldn't be a line of people saying words, but a group of characters playing their parts, just without the benefit of a set or props.

The play I wrote, Think of Laura, was a rather dark and twisted story that really took the idea of "Beauty and the Beast" into a more intense and dark direction as it focused on the Beast in all of us, and how our desire for perfection and beauty can be just as evil and deceptive. It's entirely different from my other treatment (the gothic one I've been working on for several years), and is partially based on a few elements of 1944's Laura (hence the title, itself a Christopher Cross song that I listened to several times over while writing the play).

I actually like Muke for some reason.

Hehe...

Anyway, I guess neither of us know enough about physics or medicine to know if it was in the right place or done in the right way to kill him, but the Beast giving up on life, I just don't see why he would when Belle came back. Of course "I love you" was really powerful, but I would also strive to live if the one I loved was just there with me.

True, but we have to remember the passage of time in the movie. While it's never really specified how long Belle's been with Beast, he's been alone for far longer (ten years at least, according to "Be Our Guest", but it's likely more than ten years as objects don't immediately rust...). And the rose, as Lumiere stated, had already begun to wilt, and was already on its last few petals when Belle left and came back. And that one night has just been a rollercoaster of emotions, he's having dinner and dancing with Belle, then he's completely bereaved when he lets her go, then he's welcoming death by Gaston, then he's happy to see Belle again, then he's stabbed by Gaston and damn that's gotta hurt. Sure, the adrenaline from the fighting and the flush of endorphins from seeing Belle could have saved him, but by now he's likely tired of waiting and hoping for that moment when the spell can be broken. Years of isolation, followed by months of eventual happiness, followed by one night where anything can and did happen. Thus, while he is delighted that Belle came back, he already has given up, even if the chance is still there. He was content enough knowing that she came back, and has resigned himself to death, knowing that at least she was with him. And of course, my three favorite words in the world are said...and all is well.

Although it's really weird that you listen to your manager tell you a man will change your life (also a little sexist...?)

It's the early 20th century, feminism was still in its infancy and although there were some exceptions (Willa Cather, Margaret Sanger, etc.), women were still subservient to the men in their lives.

I thought The History Boys was a play on Broadway, like last year. I remember seeing some kid with a gun on the Tonys.

It was a play first at the Royal National Theatre, followed by an international tour, a run on Broadway, a run on West End, and a UK national tour. There's also been different productions in Ireland, Australia, and Israel.

AFAIK, there's no gun in The History Boys...perhaps you're confusing it with Jersey Boys?

But I've been watching a gay show with a relationship I think is similar to mine and I'm more rooting for them to get together than I might with other, straight characters.

(stuff I removed because I'm gonna talk about the quote name)

(other stuff that I removed because I'm gonna talk about the quote name)

UK or US?

I've seen some episodes of the US version (it was during a four-day weekend in Florida 2005 when I was tired of going to the parks and tired of watching my DVDs, so my roommate lent me his DVDs). From what I remember, I'm guessing you're talking about the slightly-nerdy guy having a crush on the flamboyant-and-tall guy? Or is it the college guy in love with the violin-playing guy?

(again, my memory is being mean to me. I still can't get over the fact that I remember Midge being the pregnant doll, but I can't remember the BATB prologue or mere character names on a show I've only seen once 2.5 years ago! I'm usually better at names than I am at dolls...)

But for the version you want perhaps it should be like how Beauty and the Beast is already on film, the songs and dialogue are more balanced. But I think songs can do dramatic character building moments, like "Moments in the Woods" from Into the Woods where the singer thinks of what just happened and arrives at a realization at the end and after she did a bad deed she resolves. Anyway, you're right some parts may be better as dialogue, others as songs.

I believe that too (the bold), but it's like you said (and I said earlier), I like a healthy and even balance between songs and dialogue, though I tend to lean more towards dialogue. Like how in Enchanted there's about 5 songs in the entire movie, but each one is placed appropriately enough in an area where dialogue wouldn't have done the scene/emotions justice.

Hmm, well I think "Home" and "If I Can't Love Her" are unfortunately what people think are some of the best and are their favorites of the musical, so...well, would you want new songs written for the movie?

I wouldn't want new songs written to outright replace the established songs (the ones from the film), but I may want to have Menken rewrite some of the lyrics to any songs in the Broadway version that I'd consider using, "Home" and "If I Can't Love Her" being two prime examples. Both have wonderful lyrics as is, but end up repetitive and I'd either cut them down or have new lyrics included in order to better convey the scene and not just let it be a person standing around singing to the audience.

For example, the song "Something Good" from the movie version of Sound of Music was a replacement for "An Ordinary Couple" (which Rodgers was never keen on), and it's a beautiful song. It serves to show the Captain and Maria's love for each other, as they declare it to each other, without having it simply be a song to the audience for the sake of having a song. From BATB, I would want to see "If I Can't Love Her" be more of emotion and inner turmoil than repetitive exposition.

I'm glad you're holding me to my offer, and that you'd even help me with Cinderella. I just thought of how it would be meeting you in real life, and I hope that it wouldn't be so different from online that it's all awkward.

Meeting people in real life that you know only online can be a bit surreal. I met Prince Phillip in 2005 during my first college program, and we only hung out a couple times due to our schedules. There was an almost chance at meeting Aaron during 2005, but that wasn't a really serious "let's see if we can meet". I simply told him to look for an Asian castmember named Albert or Jacob in Magic Kingdom while he was down there in July! Then last summer when I met Ames (aka blackcauldron85) and Alex (aka goofystitch), it was a lot of fun and we spent the day in Animal Kingdom, then me, Ames, and my roommate Paul went to Downtown Disney and Magic Kingdom. Also I met peoplemover (aka Bobby, Amy's husband) over the phone. I also remember having a few e-mail conversations with MichaeLeah about meeting him and his wife in Disney, but I was never there when they were, and he initially assumed that I lived in Florida permanently (which I may do one day, but I love New Jersey too much, even if I say I hate it half the time).

But yeah, it's still a bit surreal. Of course, now whenever I read things by Ames on UD, I can remember how her voice sounds and what she looks like beyond the pictures in the Face-to-a-Name thread.

I know that Julian Carter is eager to meet anyone from UD. Perhaps we should shoot our movies on location in Malta!

It'd be cool if there were UD conventions, lol, or a UD vacation club that organize group vacations to various Disney parks. That'd make meeting everyone a lot easier!

By the way, that L thing was from something me and my friend do all the time to be weird.

For me and my friend Jax, it was the letter F, so I'd be Albf (it could have been Alf, but Albf was funnier as it's FBLA backwards, and FBLA=Future Business Leaders of America), and she'd be Jaxf (which is hard to pronounce, so I was mostly stuck with being called Albf and she was just Jax).

With me and Rachael, we refer to each other as Philbert & Jennifer, which was headscratching for anyone who didn't know the story (she had an alternative Jennifer name tag, and I was a "fill" at her popcorn wagon once, thus "Philbert". A "fill" is basically an assistant for the vendor, or as we called it, the wagon bitch.)

Scaps

[UncleEd]

"I'm a huge Cinderella fan and have done a lot to find out about the movie's roots, but I've never heard that was the original story before. May I ask where you read and heard that? As far as the official Grimm's and Perrault's stories were written, that version is not how either of them went. The Grimm's stepsister's eyes were pecked out, but the prince didn't have any part in their punishment. "

In my elementary school we had a copy of Cinderella that had that in the ending with pictures.

"Well, to be honest, I do wonder if my Cinderella obsession is why I have not yet gotten a job and have hoped that a boyfriend would ask me to move in with him and I wouldn't have to do anything. But of course, then you would just call me pathetic for that. I won't deny that. But the message still is harmful in that."

There's a difference between hoping for true love and wanting a free ride in life. The reason relationships are more screwed up today than ever in history is because the 60's feminist movement has caused men to not know how to behave. If you're gentlemanly you get attacked for being oppressive to women, if you're a feminine man you're attacked for being a wimp, if you're macho you're attacked for being a pig. In public women will say what the feminist movement wantsthem to say but we all know secretly women want to be romanced and have the old fashioned stuff. The only reason it's dead is because women killed it.

"Even something bad can be in opinion, because some people like pain ec.,"

And those people are feaks. Pain harms the human body so how on earth is that good?

"or some bad things for some people can be good for others, like someone losing a contest, etc."


I'd never consider losing a contest to be a bad thing. It's just something that happens, life goes on and move on.


"But anyway, I meant the messages were bad because they are bad for the women who would follow them. But wrong and bad are different"

No they aren't.

."I think punishing people is wrong, some people thing it's right, but the person being punished would say getting punished for something is a bad thing that happened to them."

How could you think that punishment is a wrong thing? Should we just allow murderers, rapists, thieves, and child molestors to run around the streets without consequence?

"Or for another example, you could say the holocaust never happened, which would be wrong. Or you could say the holocaust happened, which would be right, but the holocaust was bad." "

Just because something that was a historical fact is bad doesn't win your somethngs right is wring arguement. The answer is right that it happened. The event was wrong. That's two different contexts. Thanks for playing.

" That doesn't sound very kind or Christian. "

Have you ever read some of the things Jesus actually said? People who made the same stupid choices over and over irritated Him. I have no sympathy for a woman who keeps returning to the same abusive man when she knows how he is. Why should anyone?

"I think it was supposed to be a different fairy tale. There's no swordfighting in any version I know, unless they were making a new version. I doubt Disney would ever cross-fairy tales though (inserting characters from other films isn't the same thing). And there isn't any true love's kiss in Cinderella or even in the story she was reading! It's just "far off places, magic spells, daring swordfights, and a prince in disguise" and "here's where she meets Prince Charming, but she won't discover that it's him till chapter 3!""

Come on, it is an establishedfact that Belle was reading Cinderella. She was reading the version where the prince pretends to be the gardener, hence the disquise. Beauty and the Beast also references Romeo & Juliet, King Arthur, and there was one other book I'm forgetting. It's in the making of material that she is reading Cinderella. There is no debate about it.

"I guess the Enchantress knew the prince was straight, but she seems to know everything about him anyway, and perhaps watched over him to lift the spell as we said. However, it's rather odd, because she wasn't expecting the prince to fall in love her as an old woman...why would she make it be romantic love? "

Why should anyone ever not assume someone is straight upon first meeting them?

"Well, sex and romantic love are always inter-linked."

Not to the people who casually have sex with strangers and one night stands.

"If you romantically loved someone but you didn't want to have sex with them, that would be odd. Sex without love is possible, but I don't know about romantic love without sex. I don't know enough right now in my own relationships to say, but this is what I believe so far. And if you romantically love someone, I do believe there has to be physical, and thus sexual attraction in there...maybe not, I don't know."

You don't HAVE to have sex with someone to love each other though.

"But by sex I meant anything related to sex, including the attraction to a beautiful girl, or just the fact that female is her sex and it's about the kind of love he only feels for the female sex."

That's not sex though. When I think a girl is pretty it's never in a sexual way.

"Uh, for your information I think abortion is wrong and right now believe it should be illegal unless the baby would kill the mother and I believe we get souls from conception."

Bravo and yip, yip, yip, yip, yip! And do you know that less than 1% of all abortions are because of rape or the life of the mother? All the rest are for selfish reasons.

"As for the love thing, I also said in this thread that I thought people could still love someone who doesn't love them, but my psychologist said that you can have feelings for someone but you're still not in love with them unless they love you back."'

I don't buy that.

"Oh, and thye boy I love, my beast, isn't ugly. And do not even bother to comment on that, because I will only keep telling you the truth that he isn't ugly."

You said he was ugly, not me.

" Like objectophiles in Boston Legal. Who knew a utility box and an alarm clock could be so sexy? Razz"

I missed that episode but when I was in art school I met all kinds of freaks out there. There was a group who got their jollies by wearing soiled diapers, another who got turned on by furies or transforming into furies, and another who got turned on by imagining their partner aged older or younger. I believe that is where some child molestors come from, that warped state of mind. After meeting all forms of people like this attracted to God knows what I without hesitation place homosexuality in the same area; people attracted to things not the norm. You can't hide them all under the blanket of being born this way.

"If we assume she knew nothing about him until she appeared at his doorstep, then all she was expecting a simple act of kindness, which he did not show, and so she probably figured, "Okay, buddy, if you won't do this for me, I'll make your curse even worse!". Beast essentially was a narcissist before he was cursed, so what better spell than one in which he would have to fall in love with someone else? "

I agree and it's why the "their love" version got a lot of flack.

"While I don't know of any couples personally, I'm sure somewhere in the world there are couples in committed relationships (be it marriage or otherwise) who choose to remain celibate. It is an uncommon type of marriage that has been done in the past (such as the Shakers of the late 1700s), but is rarely heard of today. "

Did you know the Shakers built furniture? I remember that from Antiques Road Show.

"She was the only one who was allowed to get married, and the only one allowed to get pregnant. There actually was some controversy when the "Pregnant Midge" doll was sold in stores! "

That doll even got recalled. Now, I remember a Barbie from around 20 years ago that was pregnant with twins and the boy had the parts. They showed the commercial on TV once and my mom shrieked in a funny way like she couldn't believe it. It's funny that doll wasn't recalled but the later one was.

"Esqueerasfolk because I have been watching that show wrote:
(stuff I removed because I'm gonna talk about the quote name)

(other stuff that I removed because I'm gonna talk about the quote name)"

Oh, how mature. I'm being shunned by the queer.

My guess would be homo boy is watching a show in the UK because, as Archie Bunker so brilliantly said, the UK is the world's leading exporter of fags.

[Escapay]

Like objectophiles in Boston Legal. Who knew a utility box and an alarm clock could be so sexy? "

I missed that episode.

It was quite interesting, and Mary Gross played the objectophile. The way she was lovingly looking at the alarm clock was hilarious.

"While I don't know of any couples personally, I'm sure somewhere in the world there are couples in committed relationships (be it marriage or otherwise) who choose to remain celibate. It is an uncommon type of marriage that has been done in the past (such as the Shakers of the late 1700s), but is rarely heard of today. "

Did you know the Shakers built furniture? I remember that from Antiques Road Show.

Probably their way of working off all that pent-up sexual energy!

"She was the only one who was allowed to get married, and the only one allowed to get pregnant. There actually was some controversy when the "Pregnant Midge" doll was sold in stores! "

That doll even got recalled. Now, I remember a Barbie from around 20 years ago that was pregnant with twins and the boy had the parts. They showed the commercial on TV once and my mom shrieked in a funny way like she couldn't believe it. It's funny that doll wasn't recalled but the later one was.

UK is the world's leading exporter of fags.

UK Slang 101:
Fags = cigarettes

(Put in simply to avoid someone complaining to a mod and getting UncleEd in trouble.)

Scaps

[CJ]

UncleEd, some of your comments in this thread are bordering on personal attacks, which are not allowed around here. Please find a way to express your points without insulting/attacking your fellow members.

*Note- I'm not referring to the UK slang.

[UncleEd]

We both know Archie Bunker wasn't talkin' ciggerettes....

I'm not attacing anyone. If anyone is taking me that way they are too sensitive and reading way to much into mu posts.

Thanks and have a great day. I gotta toss a faggot* onto the fire now."


*Faggot is a bunble of sticks.

[Disney Duster]

Unneeded, but a lot of enjoyable and informative reading. We covered a lot of ground, even if in the end, it was put to rest with a simple pronoun!

Oh, well thank you!

If we assume she knew nothing about him until she appeared at his doorstep, then all she was expecting a simple act of kindness, which he did not show, and so she probably figured, "Okay, buddy, if you won't do this for me, I'll make your curse even worse!". Beast essentially was a narcissist before he was cursed, so what better spell than one in which he would have to fall in love with someone else?

I don't understand why she'd make the curse worse if she didn't even know him and know she would place a curse on him to begin with. I think she knew or heard a lot of bad things about him, and perhaps it really was that she was trying to see if he could show kindness to someone who badly needed it, because it's hard to turn away people in need when they're right in front of you. So maybe she placed this curse where he had to love a pretty girl because he really was only capable of loving in that way and loving women who are beautiful, until the girl he loves teaches him to love others or something I don't know. Beauty and the Beast is just confusing.

"Why can't the Beast just love someone without romance or sex?"

Uh, just when did the Beast have sex with Belle? I missed that version.

Sex without love is possible, but I don't know about romantic love without sex.

While I don't know of any couples personally, I'm sure somewhere in the world there are couples in committed relationships (be it marriage or otherwise) who choose to remain celibate. It is an uncommon type of marriage that has been done in the past (such as the Shakers of the late 1700s), but is rarely heard of today.[/quote]
Ummm, yea, maybe those people wee deliberately trying to be celibate for God or other reasons, but I mean sex very generally, even just making out. I meant I don't know if you can love someone without being also being sexually attracted. I just don't know. In a world where it seems anyone can find anything attractive, it just might be unavoidable. I'm going to use straight men as an example. Straight men only go after women. It doesn't matter if he finds her pretty or plain, she's still got T&A for him to be attracted to.

I must have forgotten, did you direct a B&TB play somewhere, not supposed to be Disney's version?

So you have two treatments for Beauty and the Beast, and you already quasi-directed one. Okay. Well, maybe you can incorporate something from both of those if I ever make it as a director. I have two Jim Hill links that may be of interest to you. One talks about some stuff they explored for Beauty and the Beast that was ignored for a more typical Disney look, the other what could have been the animated version of the prologue.

As for the Beast giving up on life and all that, I didn't mean he was thinking of the spell being broken when she was there, I meant that he should have wanted to live just because she was there with him and clearly loving him even before she said it!

IAFAIK, there's no gun in The History Boys...perhaps you're confusing it with Jersey Boys?

Yes, I know what Jersy Boys is about. Sometime I'll look on History Boys. Did you say there's a song in it? I thought it was a straight play.

I'm watching the US version. I'm only about half-way in the 1st season, but basically Brian (hot guy everyone wants who has amazing job and apartment, gets with 17 year old) and Mikey (immature guy who works at the Big Q, gets wth Dr.) are best friends and Mikey seems to be in love with or want to date Brian, and Brian could be but it's unknown. Basically my beast and I are friends but I want us to be more.

I think I agree with everything you said about movie musicals except I actually like musicals with lots of singing, like Sweeney Todd. Still, when it comes to re-making a Disney film might as well keep the Disneyness of a balance between singing and saying.

What you said about changing the songs sounds great and exactly what I would do!

to eveything about you and your friends.

I'll get to UncleEd tomarrow.
EDIT: Because UncleEd clearly meant both meanings of the words he used which everyone knows can be read as slurs for homosexuality, and it's obvious he is attacking me by calling me "homoboy" and such, I will not be replying to what he said after all. That and the fact that what he said didn't really make sense and he's not good at arguing or debating. I had a hard time understanding him, and it's hard for me to answer what he said when he's deliberately trying to make me feel bad in what I'm replying to. By the way I live in America.

ESCAPAY, I feel sad and hurt because you didn't defend me, in fact you tried to defend UncleEd when it was obvious what he meant by his use of those words. I'm gonna get over it, you'll still be my friend, but I'm letting you know how I feel.

[Ariel'sprince]

Here's a mistake i noticed:
In the Broadway musical the dust cleaner's name is Babbet and in Belle's Magical World they called her Fiffy .

[Beast_enchantment]

Here's a mistake i noticed:
In the Broadway musical the dust cleaner's name is Babbet and in Belle's Magical World they called her Fiffy .

i like to pretend that Belle's "Magical" World doesnt exist, lol

[Ariel'sprince]

Here's a mistake i noticed:
In the Broadway musical the dust cleaner's name is Babbet and in Belle's Magical World they called her Fiffy .

i like to pretend that Belle's "Magical" World doesnt exist, lol

You mean Belle's Unmagical World.
Me too,it was really stupid how Belle and Beast had fights like a 5 years old kids on such nonsense.

[Beast_enchantment]

You mean Belle's Unmagical World.
Me too,it was really stupid how Belle and Beast had fights like a 5 years old kids on such nonsense.

not to mention the whole thing was painful on the eyes. ive never seen such shitty animation in my life! such a disgrace to the original movie!!

[UncleEd]

"I'll get to UncleEd tomarrow.
EDIT: Because UncleEd clearly meant both meanings of the words he used which everyone knows can be read as slurs for homosexuality, and it's obvious he is attacking me by calling me "homoboy" and such,"


I was not attacking you.

"I will not be replying to what he said after all. That and the fact that what he said didn't really make sense and he's not good at arguing or debating. I had a hard time understanding him, and it's hard for me to answer what he said when he's deliberately trying to make me feel bad in what I'm replying to. By the way I live in America."


No I wasn't but you're must too sensitive to make it in a debate. You'd never thrive in politics. If you have a hard time understanding me then you must have gone to public screwl...


'"ESCAPAY, I feel sad and hurt because you didn't defend me, in fact you tried to defend UncleEd when it was obvious what he meant by his use of those words. I'm gonna get over it, you'll still be my friend, but I'm letting you know how I feel."

There you go needing a man to defend you again. Can't you fight your own battles?

You take everything way too personally and find offense with everything. It's people like you who rant about Indiana Jones action figures are offensive if they make the Nazis...

[Ariel'sprince]

You mean Belle's Unmagical World.
Me too,it was really stupid how Belle and Beast had fights like a 5 years old kids on such nonsense.

not to mention the whole thing was painful on the eyes. ive never seen such shitty animation in my life! such a disgrace to the original movie!!

The animation is bad but the stories were even worse,the Beast was just a jerk.
Good thing this series was deleted,did you saw Sing Me A Story With Belle?.

[Beast_enchantment]

The animation is bad but the stories were even worse,the Beast was just a jerk.
Good thing this series was deleted,did you saw Sing Me A Story With Belle?.

I used to love sing me a story with Belle when i was a kid!!! wether or not it was actually good, i cant rememebr, lol!

[Someday...]

No, they're not there and I highly doubt any women stay with abusive men because of this fairy tale. If they are then they're just pathetic and deserve whatever misfortune comes their way.

But honey, thats the moral of the story (to its original audience anyway. Stay with whatever beastly man you get , and hope he will, in time, turn into your ideal man.[/u]

[UmbrellaFish]

I used to love sing me a story with Belle when i was a kid!!! wether or not it was actually good, i cant rememebr, lol!

I like it, too. I was so surprised when I grew up and found out people didn't like it. The last time I saw it must have been at least 3 years ago, and I was borrowing my cousin's VHS of the show (just to see what it was like).

[CJ]

If you have a hard time understanding me then you must have gone to public screwl...

UncleEd, That right there is a personal attack against Disney Duster's intelligence. I will not tolerate anymore attacks against any of your fellow forum members. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about your Archie Bunker comment, but it is clear that you intended that comment as a slur, which is most definitely a personal attack. Consider this your second warning.

[jeremy88]

But honey, thats the moral of the story (to its original audience anyway. Stay with whatever beastly man you get , and hope he will, in time, turn into your ideal man.[/u]

wow you hit it right on the nose! But still, sometimes the other person just stays one big beastly character! So hopefully they will turn into ideal person sooner then later.

Anyways, I like Beauty and the Beast, its one of my all time favorites. I actually get a little misty eyed when the end comes and they're dancing in the ballroom with the chorus is going BEAUTY AND THE BEAST!!! I think this one has more emotion to the story, like when it comes to Disney Fairytales I always compare Mermaid and Beast, because they are similar yet very different. Anyways I've always felt Beauty and the Beast is a better film then The Little Mermaid, because both Belle and Beast are so developed and their love for each other just grows spectacularly and it really seems like "true love". While Mermaid's love part of the story is actually kind of paper thin, mainly because it happens so fast. But its okay because when it comes to The Little Mermaid, my main focus on the movie is Ariel's initial dream, and the love aspect of the movie to me comes secondary. Anyways I just love Beauty and the Beast! My favorite song in that movie is Beauty and the Beast(especially the ending chorus) so yeah Beauty and the Beast gets a solid 11/10 from me!

[Ariel'sprince]

The animation is bad but the stories were even worse,the Beast was just a jerk.
Good thing this series was deleted,did you saw Sing Me A Story With Belle?.

I used to love sing me a story with Belle when i was a kid!!! wether or not it was actually good, i cant rememebr, lol!

Really? i didn't saw a single episode,thought i saw the opening,were there any other character from the film in the series?.