The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part III

[Sotiris]

Dr. Toon: Wielding the Hatchet
Dr. Toon takes on critics for blasting The Princess and the Frog for all the wrong reasons.

http://www.awn.com/articles/2d/dr-toon- ... page/1%2C1

[BK]

I posted in the wrong thread but I thought the romance between Tiana and Naveen was really badly done.

Pacing wasn't really a problem which I found upon repeat viewing in other Disney movies, most notably, The Lion King.

He falls in love with her after a few hours? The only bonding time they had was cooking.

So Mama Odie's 'what do you need' bullshit was laughable. It's no more deeper or better than the formulaic rom-com that plagues Hollywood these days. I know Disney movies have heavy doses of this quickie romance subplot but after viewing a couple movies again it just doesn't work in many of them. Character development is fine but the chemistry is fake, I don't see why they can't flesh it out a little more by extending the movie, after all, it's not supposed to be aimed squarely at kids, right?

But, even if they are reduced to a limited running time, they could've used it better. The hillybilly scene did nothing; the voices were annoying and stupid, filled with dumb slapstick. I guess why this vapid romance was more bothersome was because they got married after hours of getting to know each other and of course when I say getting to know each other I mean small talk over cooking.

[Sotiris]

I posted in the wrong thread but I thought the romance between Tiana and Naveen was really badly done.

Pacing wasn't really a problem which I found upon repeat viewing in other Disney movies, most notably, The Lion King.

He falls in love with her after a few hours? The only bonding time they had was cooking.

So Mama Odie's 'what do you need' bullshit was laughable. It's no more deeper or better than the formulaic rom-com that plagues Hollywood these days. I know Disney movies have heavy doses of this quickie romance subplot but after viewing a couple movies again it just doesn't work in many of them. Character development is fine but the chemistry is fake, I don't see why they can't flesh it out a little more by extending the movie, after all, it's not supposed to be aimed squarely at kids, right?

But, even if they are reduced to a limited running time, they could've used it better. The hillybilly scene did nothing; the voices were annoying and stupid, filled with dumb slapstick. I guess why this vapid romance was more bothersome was because they got married after hours of getting to know each other and of course when I say getting to know each other I mean small talk over cooking.

Perhaps this review might interest you:

Progress City Home Theater: The Princess and the Frog
http://progresscityusa.com/2010/03/29/p ... frog-2009/

[blackcauldron85]

http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/ ... esign.aspx

Speaking in front of a hall full of students & parents at a recent Ryman Arts career event, Andreas talked about all the care & thought he put into designing Mama Odie.

“I’d never worked on a character like this before. (Mama Odie)’s not really a sorceress who uses voodoo. She’s more of the fairy godmother type,” Deja explained. “Plus she’s the oldest character that I’ve ever animated. So I wanted to find some interesting ways to show her age.”

Which Andreas eventually decided to do was contrast flesh and bone. As in: Mama Odie has very wide hips, while – at the same time – narrow bony arms.

“And figuring that – after she’d lived 197 years – most of Mama Odie’s hair would be gone … Well, that’s why I put kind of a wrap around her head. And that hat stays on Mama Odie’s head for the entire movie except for three frames toward the end of ‘Dig a Little Deeper.’ That’s when she does a hop in this musical number. And – just for an instance – Mama Odie’s hat comes off of her head. And that’s when you see she has nothing but fuzz left,” Deja laughed.

Andreas put this amount of care & thought in every aspect of “The Princess and the Frog” that he worked on. Which included Mama Odie’s seeing-eye snake, Juju.

“I didn’t want people looking up at the screen and saying ‘That’s the snake from Jungle Book,’ “ Deja continued. “Which is why I made some very deliberate design choices with this character. Because Kaa had a long snout and beady little pupil, I designed Juju with a short snout and big Roger Rabbit-type eyes.”

Which – as far as snakes go – then made Juju a cute, almost cuddly kind of a reptile.

[BK]

I posted in the wrong thread but I thought the romance between Tiana and Naveen was really badly done.

Pacing wasn't really a problem which I found upon repeat viewing in other Disney movies, most notably, The Lion King.

He falls in love with her after a few hours? The only bonding time they had was cooking.

So Mama Odie's 'what do you need' bullshit was laughable. It's no more deeper or better than the formulaic rom-com that plagues Hollywood these days. I know Disney movies have heavy doses of this quickie romance subplot but after viewing a couple movies again it just doesn't work in many of them. Character development is fine but the chemistry is fake, I don't see why they can't flesh it out a little more by extending the movie, after all, it's not supposed to be aimed squarely at kids, right?

But, even if they are reduced to a limited running time, they could've used it better. The hillybilly scene did nothing; the voices were annoying and stupid, filled with dumb slapstick. I guess why this vapid romance was more bothersome was because they got married after hours of getting to know each other and of course when I say getting to know each other I mean small talk over cooking.

Perhaps this review might interest you:

Progress City Home Theater: The Princess and the Frog
http://progresscityusa.com/2010/03/29/p ... frog-2009/

Wow. That's almost exactly how I feel.

The article is a bit more critical about other characters like Louis and Dr. Facilier but sums up my feelings well overall.

It was a good return for hand drawn classic Disney but the talk of an Oscar was unfounded IMO with better movies in Up, Coraline, Fantastic Mr. Fox, Cloudy and even in fun terms Astro Boy and Dawn of the Dinos. But then again it was a strong year for animation as a whole and I haven't even seen a few movies yet. It certainly massacres the turd that is Monsters Vs Aliens though.

[Sky Syndrome]

Tiana and Naveen played around with the frog hunters. That could be considered bonding time too. Naveen learned Tiana isn't above doing fun things. He rescued her from them and that made her think more tenderly of him. Tiana would've expected him to stand on the sidelines.

[Polizzi]

I have no problem with Disney's, "The Princess and the Frog," except the story would probably need some improvement. Take the frog hunters for example, they are not receiving enough roles. All they do is hunt frogs, and they got defeated by frogs. What do they do after that? Here's an idea I came up with:

What if the frog hunters went to see Dr. Facilier (Shadowman) for help with their talking frog problems? That is when Dr. Facilier strikes a deal with the frog hunters saying that if they capture Tiana (because Dr. Facilier believes that she might foil his plans to rule New Orleans), and bring her to him, the frog hunters' reward will be raining frogs from Dr. Facilier's friends on the other side. Lawrence asks Dr. Facilier a question about sending his friends on the other side to capture Tiana, than the frog hunters. Dr. Facilier replied that he needs his friends on the other side to watch over the wedding, to make sure that nothing goes wrong. After the frog hunters did, their deal got backfired, which turned the frog hunters into frogs, instead of receiving raining frogs. When they are freed by Ray (after they promised to never hunt frogs again, and Tiana decided to give the frog hunters their job as a greeter, usher, and/or chef for her future restaurant), they decided to help Tiana save Naveen, for they want revenge against Dr. Facilier for cheating against them. In the scene where Tiana uses her tongue to grab the talisman from Dr. Facilier, what if he dodges her tongue and says that she missed? That is when, unexpected, the frog hunters came behind Dr. Facilier, and attacked him. The leader of the frog hunters (Pa) grabbed the talisman, throws it to Tiana, and shouts at her to destroy it. When she does, Dr. Facilier broke free from being attacked by the frog hunters as frogs, and came down in a panic. As Tiana and the frog hunters hid themselves behind the tomb, they saw Dr. Facilier's fate carried by his friends on the other side. In the scene where Tiana gets married with Naveen, and the frog hunters invited to their wedding as frogs, they all become human. In the scene where Tiana and Naveen buy the building for their future restaurant, not only they are accompanied by Louis, but the frog hunters (now as humans) as well with their guns to make the building owner's give Tiana respect. In the scene where Tiana sings in her restaurant, Naveen serves to his parents while the frog hunters cook and serve to other customers. And they all lived happily ever after.

How is that for an extended story for Disney's, "The Princess and the Frog?" IF Disney wishes to re-release their animated movie to theaters to get some audience again, why not create an extended version to make it more interesting than leave some scenes in the movie out, especially give some characters more roles.

And I must agree with Disney fans: Why is Tiana and Naveen's romance cut short? Talk about a, "Bad Romance (song by Lady Gaga)," get it? They could at least try to get to know each other more, than just fell in love with no reason. I wish I could help come up with ideas to get Tiana and Naveen to know each other, than just fall in love like that.

[BK]

I have no problem with Disney's, "The Princess and the Frog," except the story would probably need some improvement. Take the frog hunters for example, they are not receiving enough roles. All they do is hunt frogs, and they got defeated by frogs. What do they do after that? Here's an idea I came up with:

What if the frog hunters went to see Dr. Facilier (Shadowman) for help with their talking frog problems? That is when Dr. Facilier strikes a deal with the frog hunters saying that if they capture Tiana (because Dr. Facilier believes that she might foil his plans to rule New Orleans), and bring her to him, the frog hunters' reward will be raining frogs from Dr. Facilier's friends on the other side. Lawrence asks Dr. Facilier a question about sending his friends on the other side to capture Tiana, than the frog hunters. Dr. Facilier replied that he needs his friends on the other side to watch over the wedding, to make sure that nothing goes wrong. After the frog hunters did, their deal got backfired, which turned the frog hunters into frogs, instead of receiving raining frogs. When they are freed by Ray (after they promised to never hunt frogs again, and Tiana decided to give the frog hunters their job as a greeter, usher, and/or chef for her future restaurant), they decided to help Tiana save Naveen, for they want revenge against Dr. Facilier for cheating against them. In the scene where Tiana uses her tongue to grab the talisman from Dr. Facilier, what if he dodges her tongue and says that she missed? That is when, unexpected, the frog hunters came behind Dr. Facilier, and attacked him. The leader of the frog hunters (Pa) grabbed the talisman, throws it to Tiana, and shouts at her to destroy it. When she does, Dr. Facilier broke free from being attacked by the frog hunters as frogs, and came down in a panic. As Tiana and the frog hunters hid themselves behind the tomb, they saw Dr. Facilier's fate carried by his friends on the other side. In the scene where Tiana gets married with Naveen, and the frog hunters invited to their wedding as frogs, they all become human. In the scene where Tiana and Naveen buy the building for their future restaurant, not only they are accompanied by Louis, but the frog hunters (now as humans) as well with their guns to make the building owner's give Tiana respect. In the scene where Tiana sings in her restaurant, Naveen serves to his parents while the frog hunters cook and serve to other customers. And they all lived happily ever after.

How is that for an extended story for Disney's, "The Princess and the Frog?" IF Disney wishes to re-release their animated movie to theaters to get some audience again, why not create an extended version to make it more interesting than leave some scenes in the movie out, especially give some characters more roles.

And I must agree with Disney fans: Why is Tiana and Naveen's romance cut short? Talk about a, "Bad Romance (song by Lady Gaga)," get it? They could at least try to get to know each other more, than just fell in love with no reason. I wish I could help come up with ideas to get Tiana and Naveen to know each other, than just fall in love like that.

What was the point of your idea?

Those frog hunters were the worst part of the movie, why on earth would they extend their roles? Your script makes them out to be important characters which they sure as hell are not.

On the contrary Syndrome, Naveen's character would not have been to abandon Tiana. He is made out to be a self-concerned jerk but there is nothing indicative of him being a deserter. The whole Tiana wants fun aspect was badly done. It was her dream, not only her father's to want that restaurant and she enjoys cooking. It was badly plotted, that's all.

[Polizzi]

I have no problem with Disney's, "The Princess and the Frog," except the story would probably need some improvement. Take the frog hunters for example, they are not receiving enough roles. All they do is hunt frogs, and they got defeated by frogs. What do they do after that? Here's an idea I came up with:

What if the frog hunters went to see Dr. Facilier (Shadowman) for help with their talking frog problems? That is when Dr. Facilier strikes a deal with the frog hunters saying that if they capture Tiana (because Dr. Facilier believes that she might foil his plans to rule New Orleans), and bring her to him, the frog hunters' reward will be raining frogs from Dr. Facilier's friends on the other side. Lawrence asks Dr. Facilier a question about sending his friends on the other side to capture Tiana, than the frog hunters. Dr. Facilier replied that he needs his friends on the other side to watch over the wedding, to make sure that nothing goes wrong. After the frog hunters did, their deal got backfired, which turned the frog hunters into frogs, instead of receiving raining frogs. When they are freed by Ray (after they promised to never hunt frogs again, and Tiana decided to give the frog hunters their job as a greeter, usher, and/or chef for her future restaurant), they decided to help Tiana save Naveen, for they want revenge against Dr. Facilier for cheating against them. In the scene where Tiana uses her tongue to grab the talisman from Dr. Facilier, what if he dodges her tongue and says that she missed? That is when, unexpected, the frog hunters came behind Dr. Facilier, and attacked him. The leader of the frog hunters (Pa) grabbed the talisman, throws it to Tiana, and shouts at her to destroy it. When she does, Dr. Facilier broke free from being attacked by the frog hunters as frogs, and came down in a panic. As Tiana and the frog hunters hid themselves behind the tomb, they saw Dr. Facilier's fate carried by his friends on the other side. In the scene where Tiana gets married with Naveen, and the frog hunters invited to their wedding as frogs, they all become human. In the scene where Tiana and Naveen buy the building for their future restaurant, not only they are accompanied by Louis, but the frog hunters (now as humans) as well with their guns to make the building owner's give Tiana respect. In the scene where Tiana sings in her restaurant, Naveen serves to his parents while the frog hunters cook and serve to other customers. And they all lived happily ever after.

How is that for an extended story for Disney's, "The Princess and the Frog?" IF Disney wishes to re-release their animated movie to theaters to get some audience again, why not create an extended version to make it more interesting than leave some scenes in the movie out, especially give some characters more roles.

And I must agree with Disney fans: Why is Tiana and Naveen's romance cut short? Talk about a, "Bad Romance (song by Lady Gaga)," get it? They could at least try to get to know each other more, than just fell in love with no reason. I wish I could help come up with ideas to get Tiana and Naveen to know each other, than just fall in love like that.

What was the point of your idea?

Those frog hunters were the worst part of the movie, why on earth would they extend their roles? Your script makes them out to be important characters which they sure as hell are not.

On the contrary Syndrome, Naveen's character would not have been to abandon Tiana. He is made out to be a self-concerned jerk but there is nothing indicative of him being a deserter. The whole Tiana wants fun aspect was badly done. It was her dream, not only her father's to want that restaurant and she enjoys cooking. It was badly plotted, that's all.

Like I said, the story needs some more work. But I can tell you this, what if Disney WANTED the frog hunters to be useful? If Disney wanted characters to become useful instead of a waste of time, why not give them more roles? But, if Disney DOES NOT WANT the characters to be useful, then that is a good question about what you said: Why did Disney created characters that can waste time than being useful? What Disney NEEDS to do is improve the story, than leave some scenes that remain a question out.

[ajmrowland]

they would've been more useful, only if the Dr. made a housecall.

[Polizzi]

they would've been more useful, only if the Dr. made a housecall.

Unless if the leader of the frog hunters (Pa) replied to Dr. Facilier that not only he and Lawrence have Naveen who is a frog, but Pa mentioned Tiana who is a frog, which could make Dr. Facilier become suspicious about Tiana's plans to save Naveen, and destroy his plans to rule New Orleans. That is when Dr. Facilier strikes a deal for the frog hunters to put Tiana out of the way while he and Lawrence continue their plans to get Lawrence married, and himself to rule New Orleans.

[Prudence]

TIANA IS THE FIRST DISNEY PRINCESS WHOSE DRIVE AND PERSONALITY I CAN RELATE TO (EXCEPT FOR EILONWY WHO IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE DISNEY PRINCESS MERCH, BUT I CAN IDENTIFY WITH TIANA MORE). HELL, TIANA IS THE FIRST LEADING DISNEY CHARACTER, PERIOD, THAT I CAN IDENTIFY WITH. I LIKE HER A LOT FOR THAT. I LIKED ALL THE CHARACTERS EVEN THOUGH LAWRENCE SEEMED LIKE A RIP-OFF OF NATHANIEL. PRINCESS AND THE FROG WASN'T MY FAVORITE MOVIE, BUT IT WAS NOTABLY ABOVE AVERAGE.

CINDERELLA IS STILL MY FAVORITE PRINCESS. CHARACTERS I SEE MY FRIENDS IN > CHARACTERS I SEE MYSELF IN, FOR ME. TIANA GETS THE SILVER MEDAL IN MY BOOK.

[SillySymphony]

I LIKED ALL THE CHARACTERS EVEN THOUGH LAWRENCE SEEMED LIKE A RIP-OFF OF NATHANIEL.

I thought that too when I saw him on screen! They could be brothers.

[Polizzi]

TIANA IS THE FIRST DISNEY PRINCESS WHOSE DRIVE AND PERSONALITY I CAN RELATE TO (EXCEPT FOR EILONWY WHO IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE DISNEY PRINCESS MERCH, BUT I CAN IDENTIFY WITH TIANA MORE). HELL, TIANA IS THE FIRST LEADING DISNEY CHARACTER, PERIOD, THAT I CAN IDENTIFY WITH. I LIKE HER A LOT FOR THAT. I LIKED ALL THE CHARACTERS EVEN THOUGH LAWRENCE SEEMED LIKE A RIP-OFF OF NATHANIEL. PRINCESS AND THE FROG WASN'T MY FAVORITE MOVIE, BUT IT WAS NOTABLY ABOVE AVERAGE.

CINDERELLA IS STILL MY FAVORITE PRINCESS. CHARACTERS I SEE MY FRIENDS IN > CHARACTERS I SEE MYSELF IN, FOR ME. TIANA GETS THE SILVER MEDAL IN MY BOOK.

OF COURSE TIANA IS THE MAIN ROLE, NOT TO MENTION A FEMALE PROTAGONIST! AND THE MOVIE DOES SUPPORT HER! SOME TIMES THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING SUPPORTIVE CHARACTERS TO SUPPORT TIANA! THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE MOVIE GREAT, ESPECIALLY WHEN DISNEY DID THEIR VERY BEST TO PUT A MOVIE LIKE THAT, AND I LOVE IT VERY, VERY MUCH, PERIOD!!!

PS: She is also the first African-American princess to be part of the Disney Princesses. She's cool.

[Elladorine]

Uh . . . what's with the sudden use of caps lock?

[nachonaco]

I'll have to post a screengrab to prove it, but does it creep anyone out that Tiana's Mom and Naveen's mom look EXACTLY alike?!?

[Disney's Divinity]

I'll have to post a screengrab to prove it, but does it creep anyone out that Tiana's Mom and Naveen's mom look EXACTLY alike?!?

Well, they don't look completely alike. Tiana's mom is a bit chubbier, and Naveen's is older, with white hair and more wrinkles. But, yes, they are very similar.

They probably made them similar to save time animating. But Naveen's mother is only in 2 (very short) scenes! They could've given her a more unique design. But, again, it is only about 5 seconds of the movie that we see her, so it never bothered me that much.

[Prudence]

TIANA IS THE FIRST DISNEY PRINCESS WHOSE DRIVE AND PERSONALITY I CAN RELATE TO (EXCEPT FOR EILONWY WHO IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE DISNEY PRINCESS MERCH, BUT I CAN IDENTIFY WITH TIANA MORE). HELL, TIANA IS THE FIRST LEADING DISNEY CHARACTER, PERIOD, THAT I CAN IDENTIFY WITH. I LIKE HER A LOT FOR THAT. I LIKED ALL THE CHARACTERS EVEN THOUGH LAWRENCE SEEMED LIKE A RIP-OFF OF NATHANIEL. PRINCESS AND THE FROG WASN'T MY FAVORITE MOVIE, BUT IT WAS NOTABLY ABOVE AVERAGE.

CINDERELLA IS STILL MY FAVORITE PRINCESS. CHARACTERS I SEE MY FRIENDS IN > CHARACTERS I SEE MYSELF IN, FOR ME. TIANA GETS THE SILVER MEDAL IN MY BOOK.

OF COURSE TIANA IS THE MAIN ROLE, NOT TO MENTION A FEMALE PROTAGONIST! AND THE MOVIE DOES SUPPORT HER! SOME TIMES THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING SUPPORTIVE CHARACTERS TO SUPPORT TIANA! THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE MOVIE GREAT, ESPECIALLY WHEN DISNEY DID THEIR VERY BEST TO PUT A MOVIE LIKE THAT, AND I LOVE IT VERY, VERY MUCH, PERIOD!!!

PS: She is also the first African-American princess to be part of the Disney Princesses. She's cool.

I NEVER SAID ANYTHING AGAINST SUPPORTIVE CHARACTERS. I SAID I LIKED ALL THE CHARACTERS IN THIS MOVIE. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR POINT IS.

I'M JUST SAYING THAT IT'S COOL THAT DISNEY HAS A BLUE COLLAR CAREER WOMAN FOR A MAIN CHARACTER FOR ONCE, BUT CINDERELLA WILL ALWAYS BE MY FAVORITE PRINCESS EVEN THOUGH I DON'T REALLY RELATE MUCH TO HER. THAT IS ALL.

Uh . . . what's with the sudden use of caps lock? Confused

I FEEL LIKE SHOUTING TODAY.

[Margos]

Hey, Pru is back, and louder than ever! Welcome back!

I definitely agree. Tiana is pretty awesome!

I must say, though, I don't understand what's with all of the TPatF trashing lately. It was actually really good. The romance might have been a little bit rushed, but certainly less so than say, Aurora and Phillip, Snow and What's-His-Face, Cinderella and Charming, and Ariel and Eric.

[Disney's Divinity]

I think the only thing I didn't like about Tiana--and it's not really about her character exactly--is that she kind of gets swallowed up by such an excellent cast. But, yes, I do love her (although her design is far too similar to Belle).

I was going to write a long, huge rant about how much I disagreed with most of that article, but I went through about 3 paragraphs and decided I didn't want to post another weighed-down, over-opinionated post on UD for at least a few weeks. I'll just say: 1. Lawrence, the frog hunters, and Louis do all serve a purpose in the film, and, 2. People have been complaining that the characters fall in love too quickly....like this has never happened before in the history of Disney. Maybe the movie seemed so serious and "real" that the quickness of their relationship stood out particularly, but this is not a new problem. I think the only Disney couple I've liked besides Tiana and Naveen were Hercules and Megara.

To end on a more positive note, I've watched the movie at least 15 to 20 times now and it still hasn't worn out my interest. It's easily my favorite film since Mulan (I really love Treasure Planet, but that one has a lot of gaping flaws). It's almost sad to see that I'm out of sync with most UD members, film reviewers, and a large part of the general public (who I'm not sure have taken much notice of this film). Despite its flaws--and it has its flaws--for better or worse, I'm glad this film was made.