Hurt or Heal: Disney Villainesses

[Big Disney Fan]

Might just as well put Maleficent out of her misery...

The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 10
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Maleficent - 0 (-2)
Ursula - 14

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

[avonleastories95]

[b]The Evil Queen - 16 (+2)[/b]
Lady Tremaine - 10
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Ursula - 14

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

[Disney Duster]

Yes, the Evil Queen didn't have much better motivation than Maleficent, maybe slightly better. But Maleficent has a stronger voice, presence, and bascially stronger everything else. At least in my opinion and, like, a lot of people's opinion. I think it's actually undeniable she has more of a presence in her film.

The Evil Queen - 14 (-2)
Lady Tremaine - 10
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Ursula - 14

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

[4th Life of Thomasina]

The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 12 (+2)
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Ursula - 14

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent[/b]

[Disney's Divinity]

The Evil Queen - 12 (-2)
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Ursula - 14

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

[Jay]

Yes, the Evil Queen didn't have much better motivation than Maleficent, maybe slightly better. But Maleficent has a stronger voice, presence, and bascially stronger everything else. At least in my opinion and, like, a lot of people's opinion. I think it's actually undeniable she has more of a presence in her film.

The Evil Queen - 14 (-2)
Lady Tremaine - 10
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Ursula - 14

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

Well itis an opinion and like all opinions they are not facts. Maleficent just curses Aroura and goes off and lets her trolls hadle it and when they fail she has her raven go find Aroura. Not too professional. Atleast the Queen goes to do the job herself after the huntsman fails and doesn't rely on her pet. Also Aroura was cursed to die however the "inferior" Merryweather is able to make it so the curse only puts her to sleep. Plus Mally doesn't last to long with all of her "powers of hell" at the end. While she has an awesome voice and great design but I think the main reason put her on such a pedestal is because she says hell in a Disney film and turns into a dragon.

The Queen has more presence I feel she is colder and much more emotionally detached. Maleficent cares about her raven. The Queen is simply a sociopath who cares about nobody but herself. Even her raven fears her. Plus Lucille LaVerne did a great job voicing both the Queen and the Hag. Maleficent is all flash no substance I feel. I like her but I feel there are better villains then her which is my opinion just like yours is Maleficent is better than the Queen.............Anyways

The Evil Queen - 14 (+2)
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Ursula - 14

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

[Lazario]

Well it is an opinion and like all opinions they are not facts.

But maybe one of us is trying harder than the rest to remind everyone. I almost said this before, but I will now: it seems like you are a little too personally attached to this game's outcome. You have to let the chips fall where they may.

At least we know that Maleficent's popularity is most likely not driven by a desire to be her in any way. Despite her pettiness, people find her amazingly creepy. Blame it on Audley and her bone-chilling coldness. And her regal way of talking just seconds before she sentences a baby to its' death. That's a great deal scarier than Lady Tremaine's haggy domineering- regardless of how much more personal it was, deeper it cut.

Maleficent just curses Aroura and goes off and lets her trolls hadle it and when they fail she has her raven go find Aroura. Not too professional.

This tired old thing again? Look, for onscreen presence- Maleficent beats all the villainesses. That's just the way it is. Call it: vocal performance if you must. The animation helps a lot. And then you have scene structure. Please tell me how scary it is to have an entire army of animals surrounding the Queen from Snow White? Whereas, Maleficent is always the most powerful figure in every scene she's in. She merely transformed into the dragon to scare Phillip and she underestimated his bravery. The Queen? She was completely cut off from her powers. All she had was an apple and a plan of trickery. One where Snow White would have had to be an idiot to fall for it. And lucky for the movie, she was a complete idiot.

All these things factor into the equation. And since you seem to want to discuss this, here it is: Maleficent is better. Call it an opinion, but I call it: well researched.

Atleast the Queen goes to do the job herself after the huntsman fails and doesn't rely on her pet.

I think "after" is the key word here. You don't think Maleficent rose the occasion when she was failed? And- what are you talking about? Her pet- all the crow did was FRICKIN' LOCATE the Princess. What did you think was going to happen next- it would pull her hair and peck out her eyes?

Also Aroura was cursed to die however the "inferior" Merryweather is able to make it so the curse only puts her to sleep.

This is still a Disney movie. You do realize. And, so what? The Evil Queen / Old Peddler Woman put a spell on Snow White knowing full-well all it would do is make her sleep. Do you assume it's like grand irony somehow that she plotted for the Dwarfs to bury her alive yet they only lock her up in a glass case? Because that's not much more disturbing than Maleficent's plan. Sleeping Beauty is about the kind of supernatural balance between good and evil anyway. Neither one gets their way all the time. That's the point. Good wins out in the end, but think of all the trouble bad caused along the way. The threat of death, kidnap and imprisonment, and the fear of some force always watching every move you make. Let's face it, the stakes were higher throughout Sleeping Beauty.

but I think the main reason put her on such a pedestal is because she says hell in a Disney film and turns into a dragon.

That's incredibly petty. Almost insulting of the fans, but I won't go that far. Because I know you didn't necessarily mean to do that. You just want people to love The Queen. Well... she's okay. But she's just no Maleficent.

The Queen has more presence I feel she is colder and much more emotionally detached. Maleficent cares about her raven. The Queen is simply a sociopath who cares about nobody but herself. Even her raven fears her.

They have different personalities somewhat. The Queen is funny and only scary for maybe 1 shot in the movie (which could have been a lot scarier had she not narrated her entrance into the scene: the moment with the vultures). Maleficent didn't necessarily care about the raven, she just made reference to it being her pet (the same thing I think Satan might call any random person below shackled and chained) and was shocked at the site of it turned to stone. She did depend on it to do jobs for her- wouldn't you think: "aw, great; there goes another one" as in, "what a bitch it'll be to train another one." You can't prove she cared about anything or anyone.

Plus Lucille LaVerne did a great job voicing both the Queen and the Hag. Maleficent is all flash no substance I feel. I like her but I feel there are better villains then her which is my opinion just like yours is Maleficent is better than the Queen.

Snow White's Queen is boring until she goes into her dungeon. Before that scene, the only rewarding thing about her is her dang Mirror. Oh, and the music during the mirror scenes.



Anyway...


The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Ursula - 16 (+2)

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

[Jay]

Well it is an opinion and like all opinions they are not facts.

But maybe one of us is trying harder than the rest to remind everyone. I almost said this before, but I will now: it seems like you are a little too personally attached to this game's outcome. You have to let the chips fall where they may.

At least we know that Maleficent's popularity is most likely not driven by a desire to be her in any way. Despite her pettiness, people find her amazingly creepy. Blame it on Audley and her bone-chilling coldness. And her regal way of talking just seconds before she sentences a baby to its' death. That's a great deal scarier than Lady Tremaine's haggy domineering- regardless of how much more personal it was, deeper it cut.

Maleficent just curses Aroura and goes off and lets her trolls hadle it and when they fail she has her raven go find Aroura. Not too professional.

This tired old thing again? Look, for onscreen presence- Maleficent beats all the villainesses. That's just the way it is. Call it: vocal performance if you must. The animation helps a lot. And then you have scene structure. Please tell me how scary it is to have an entire army of animals surrounding the Queen from Snow White? Whereas, Maleficent is always the most powerful figure in every scene she's in. She merely transformed into the dragon to scare Phillip and she underestimated his bravery. The Queen? She was completely cut off from her powers. All she had was an apple and a plan of trickery. One where Snow White would have had to be an idiot to fall for it. And lucky for the movie, she was a complete idiot.

All these things factor into the equation. And since you seem to want to discuss this, here it is: Maleficent is better. Call it an opinion, but I call it: well researched.

Atleast the Queen goes to do the job herself after the huntsman fails and doesn't rely on her pet.

I think "after" is the key word here. You don't think Maleficent rose the occasion when she was failed? And- what are you talking about? Her pet- all the crow did was FRICKIN' LOCATE the Princess. What did you think was going to happen next- it would pull her hair and peck out her eyes?

Also Aroura was cursed to die however the "inferior" Merryweather is able to make it so the curse only puts her to sleep.

This is still a Disney movie. You do realize. And, so what? The Evil Queen / Old Peddler Woman put a spell on Snow White knowing full-well all it would do is make her sleep. Do you assume it's like grand irony somehow that she plotted for the Dwarfs to bury her alive yet they only lock her up in a glass case? Because that's not much more disturbing than Maleficent's plan. Sleeping Beauty is about the kind of supernatural balance between good and evil anyway. Neither one gets their way all the time. That's the point. Good wins out in the end, but think of all the trouble bad caused along the way. The threat of death, kidnap and imprisonment, and the fear of some force always watching every move you make. Let's face it, the stakes were higher throughout Sleeping Beauty.

but I think the main reason put her on such a pedestal is because she says hell in a Disney film and turns into a dragon.

That's incredibly petty. Almost insulting of the fans, but I won't go that far. Because I know you didn't necessarily mean to do that. You just want people to love The Queen. Well... she's okay. But she's just no Maleficent.

The Queen has more presence I feel she is colder and much more emotionally detached. Maleficent cares about her raven. The Queen is simply a sociopath who cares about nobody but herself. Even her raven fears her.

They have different personalities somewhat. The Queen is funny and only scary for maybe 1 shot in the movie (which could have been a lot scarier had she not narrated her entrance into the scene: the moment with the vultures). Maleficent didn't necessarily care about the raven, she just made reference to it being her pet (the same thing I think Satan might call any random person below shackled and chained) and was shocked at the site of it turned to stone. She did depend on it to do jobs for her- wouldn't you think: "aw, great; there goes another one" as in, "what a bitch it'll be to train another one." You can't prove she cared about anything or anyone.

Plus Lucille LaVerne did a great job voicing both the Queen and the Hag. Maleficent is all flash no substance I feel. I like her but I feel there are better villains then her which is my opinion just like yours is Maleficent is better than the Queen.

Snow White's Queen is boring until she goes into her dungeon. Before that scene, the only rewarding thing about her is her dang Mirror. Oh, and the music during the mirror scenes.



Anyway...


The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Ursula - 16 (+2)

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

Actually I said I wouldn't mind if Ursula or Lady Tremaine won I just didn't want Maleficent to win because as I said she wins every villain contest their is and I would like to see some variety. And I agree Eleanor Audley did a fantastic job voicing Maleficent if it wasn't for her the character wouldn't be as popular as she is in my opinion. And the Queen is rather creepy in her scenes offering Snow White the apple. She has the old folksy granny act down but the the way she drops that and says "Fine! Fine! Now take a bite!" and the shot of her face lighting up as Snow White subcums to "sleeping death" is pretty disturbing in my opinion.

And yes Maleficent does have the powers but she seems to overestimate them throughout the film. The curse, capturing Phillip, transforming into a dragon. She is very arrogant which is understandable. But Maleficent never once has people in complete fear of her while in her presnce. When she appears at the party nobody screams or runs away in fear they all just stand there.Everyone is intimidated in the Queen's presence. The huntsman, her raven and even the animals scurry at first at the sight of her. And yes they attack her but she still keeps her meance while getting Snow White to eat the apple. And again the faries sit and freely talk about Maleficent and mention her name several times and think nothing of it. While when ever anyone mentions the Queen it strikes fear into the characters. When the huntsman tells Snow White it was the Queen's idea and later when Snow White mentions her name to the dwarfs they all immediately react in fear. The only time charactrs fear Maleficent is when she is screaming and throwing her magic around. The Queen is simply mentioned and characters are frightened.


And how exactly did she "rise to the occasion?" She screamed at her trolls and sent her raven out to find her. If she as all powerful why wouldn't she be able to find her by using the powers of hell? And all she does is hypnotize Aroura. While it is an awesome scene it lacks the intensity and almost Hitchcokian suspense of the scenes where the Queen is offering Snow White the apple. And I don't understnad how the stakes were higher in Sleeping Beauty. The Queen was freaking insane while Maleficent was merely snobbish. She never got to the intensity of the Queen until her raven was turned to stone. And it is obvious she cares about her raven. She is seen stroking it several times and affectionately calls it "My pet" several times in a loving tone. So it's obvious she has feelings for it.

And the Queen is on screen for like 2 minutes before her dungeon scenes so not much really to judge her on there and it starts showing her insanity. And wanting a girls heart cut out and brought back in a box is hilarious. And during her transformation the Queen knows full well what she is doing to herself. As she adds each ingredient she states what it will do " Mummy dust to whiten my hair" ect. She knows she will be making drastic changes to herself but she is so deranged and into her goal that she is willing to do terrible things to herself to achieve it. Not so funny if you ask me. It is funny when she kicks the skelton and says "Thirsty? Have a drink!" but that is very dark humor and Maleficent uses dark humor as well.

And I am not trying to get people to love the Queen I am just stating my opinions and "research" just like everyone else is

[Big Disney Fan]

The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 4 (-2)
Ursula - 16

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

[Lazario]

Actually I said I wouldn't mind if Ursula or Lady Tremaine won I just didn't want Maleficent to win because as I said she wins every villain contest their is and I would like to see some variety. And I agree Eleanor Audley did a fantastic job voicing Maleficent if it wasn't for her the character wouldn't be as popular as she is in my opinion.

Well, of course not - as you probably know (but have obviously forgotten), she was cast well before she spoke her lines. She was used as a live-action reference when the animators were still creating the look of Maleficent. Audley is responsible for Maleficent's physical movements as well as the voice.

And the Queen is rather creepy in her scenes offering Snow White the apple. She has the old folksy granny act down but the the way she drops that and says "Fine! Fine! Now take a bite!" and the shot of her face lighting up as Snow White subcums to "sleeping death" is pretty disturbing in my opinion.

Old folksy granny? You mean the one who lived alone in a shed in the woods and kids were terrified of, ala- the witch in Hansel & Gretel? (I'm referencing both the candy-house witch and the stereotype of an old spinster.) Exactly whose grandmother is that creepy? There's no reason in the world Snow White should trust her. Therefore, the movie is playing on a different kind of logic. In essence, it's operating on the Jawbreaker logic ("they'll believe it because it's their worst nightmare"). It doesn't have to make sense. Well, please remember I'm not trying to take anything away from Snow White but since you brought it up; I will- she's a flawed villain in old hag form when you compare her to how Maleficent operated.

And yes Maleficent does have the powers but she seems to overestimate them throughout the film. The curse, capturing Phillip, transforming into a dragon. She is very arrogant which is understandable. But Maleficent never once has people in complete fear of her while in her presence. When she appears at the party nobody screams or runs away in fear they all just stand there. Everyone is intimidated in the Queen's presence. The huntsman, her raven and even the animals scurry at first at the sight of her. And yes they attack her but she still keeps her meance while getting Snow White to eat the apple.

Wait a second now...

First of all: there were several shots of people in the castle during Maleficent's entrance who were afraid of her. Remember- the closeups of the guards when she evaporated. Then, the Queen and Fauna. Check the scene again, you may find even more (depending upon whose face was onscreen). Only the King and 2 of the fairies didn't appear to be scared of her. And that's of course because they were being protective. Trying to put on a brave face. They were all scared.

Second: since this was somewhat spurred by the Old Hag scenes, I'll start there. Snow White is scared of everything. If you'll remember. She screamed and threw her hands up when she saw a bunny rabbit. And when she saw the Dwarfs. And when she saw a tree. And another tree. And another.

Third: You honestly believe the Huntsman was more intimidated by the Queen because she was a sorceress than he would be of any royalty giving him a command which he objected to? Back in those days, I'm sure they could cut off your head if you disobeyed them.

Fourth: The mirror wasn't scared of her. Neither were the vultures.

Fifth: Nobody is ever in the Queen's presence except for The Huntsman and the crow. Snow White is never seen in her presence and the one time she is, she doesn't know it because the Queen is in disguise. (Not that the disguise is fooling anyone except for stupid Snow White.)

And again the faries sit and freely talk about Maleficent and mention her name several times and think nothing of it. While when ever anyone mentions the Queen it strikes fear into the characters. When the huntsman tells Snow White it was the Queen's idea and later when Snow White mentions her name to the dwarfs they all immediately react in fear. The only time charactrs fear Maleficent is when she is screaming and throwing her magic around. The Queen is simply mentioned and characters are frightened.

Two important things.

1: Snow White is over-the-top. So, it doesn't matter what ideas they had. They're not as scary as Sleeping Beauty. Sleeping Beauty has more balance and spreads everything out over a broader field. So, they had the idea to have characters react in fear over a name. Sure- I'll give you that. But what good does it do when the heroine is an utter idiot, the Dwarfs are hasty stereotypes with really not that much personality between them (just Doc, Dopey, Grumpy really), and the music is too blunt to make anyone scared? Not that I'm ragging on the music, I love the score and I think it's great. For a fantasy. Not for any kind of spookiness or creepiness. In that area, Sleeping Beauty is superior.

2: The scene you referenced in Sleepy Beauty, you forget to mention that the fairies assumed they were safe to talk about Maleficent. Until Flora reminded them that someone/something might be listening. Now, chew on that for a second. Remember, specifically, the scene where a force of some supernature is playing with the fire in Aurora's fireplace and in the air we hear atmosphere that has a voice. The space itself seems alive. A lot of people continue to fail to put these two together. But the film didn't. There's always a sense of some deviousness or malice in the very atmosphere of every shot of the film- even before Maleficent is onscreen. That's more powerful than the Queen ever had.

And how exactly did she "rise to the occasion?" She screamed at her trolls and sent her raven out to find her. If she as all powerful why wouldn't she be able to find her by using the powers of hell?

You know I said when she was failed by her minions. Read back. I was talking about the scene where she attacks Phillip with her magic and is shown to physically be able to travel at the speed of [whatever], then confronts the good by transforming into a dragon. She didn't even have to say anything- she seems to have had the power to shapeshift all along. And knowing she had that power all along is terrifying if you learn it when she wants you to. She has more control than you're giving her credit for. As for: why didn't she just "do this, do that" with her magic - think about the mythical belief in evil. The Exorcist said the Devil believes in tricking people. When a guy looks at the possessed girl and says- "did you do that?" (move an object by force of magic), he tells the demon to do it again. The demon says: "that's much too vulgar a display of power." I took that as meaning not: save the magic because it runs out. But instead as: what's the good in giving people all you've got when they're expecting it? I believe the creative team were doling out evil in doses. They didn't want us to know all of what Maleficent was capable of until the movie reached a certain suspense or thrill peak. And you yourself agreed the dragon scene was powerful, so I think you know there's at least a little something to my theory.

And all she does is hypnotize Aroura. While it is an awesome scene it lacks the intensity and almost Hitchcockian suspense of the scenes where the Queen is offering Snow White the apple. And I don't understnad how the stakes were higher in Sleeping Beauty. The Queen was freaking insane while Maleficent was merely snobbish. She never got to the intensity of the Queen until her raven was turned to stone. And it is obvious she cares about her raven. She is seen stroking it several times and affectionately calls it "My pet" several times in a loving tone. So it's obvious she has feelings for it.

You're reading way too much into that bit. I'm questioning where certain things fit into a story structure. You're taking this one bit of character business which is nothing more than an insight into how Maleficent behaves and saying it changes the whole movie. No it doesn't. The moment where she sees the crow turned to stone means nothing. Watch the movie again. It's an indicator that things aren't going the way she planned. That's all. It's not some great movie defining moment where she's attacking Phillip to get revenge on her dead beloved bird. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Anyway, you don't get Maleficent. Her manners are not proof that she's not scary or evil. It's the way she expresses herself to others. She's trying to lull people into a false sense of security. I've seen a lot of movies about evil, some about spiritual and bodily possession and it so happens that the evil inside a demon or creature can be (and often is) a two-way street. You see one side and there's another layer underneath it. I think it's most likely a tradition that was established before Sleeping Beauty (whether it has its' roots in literature or whatever, I dunno) and they wanted to use it in their story. But I think most people can tell (and all fans of Maleficent do) that Maleficent is being two-faced in the scene you're using to try and discredit her.

Didn't you even stop to think about how much Aurora even meant to Maleficent? I promise you she wasn't jealous or anything. The whole kingdom put so much hope, joy, faith (etc) into this birth- that it was like energy emitting into the atmosphere and she could feel it. Now, before I let this sit and get read without explaining it, I have to aknowledge SuperAurora and Goliath's posts about the opening scene not feeling joyous and etc. I think it's because the fear of Maleficent was a cloud of dread that hung over the people's heads. So, they're summoning up all the strength they can to celebrate this birth and yet, in the movie it doesn't feel like much spirit. I say Maleficent felt it could turn into genuine hope, joy, faith (etc) if she didn't do something to stop the people from getting inspiration from the celebration. Note, for example, how she enters the castle at the very moment the fairies are giving their supernatural gifts. Her mission was symbolic. She was trying to destroy any trace of something "good" in the future. Not to mention the fairies putting their actual magic into the child. Giving it unfair advantages. So the whole kingdom would look at her "beauty" and hear her amazing voice and be reminded that there was a force in the universe that could challenge Maleficent's.

That's how the stakes were higher.

Now with all that in the story, you think the Queen can compare to that?
Really... ?

And the Queen is on screen for like 2 minutes before her dungeon scenes so not much really to judge her on there and it starts showing her insanity. And wanting a girls heart cut out and brought back in a box is hilarious. And during her transformation the Queen knows full well what she is doing to herself. As she adds each ingredient she states what it will do " Mummy dust to whiten my hair" ect. She knows she will be making drastic changes to herself but she is so deranged and into her goal that she is willing to do terrible things to herself to achieve it. Not so funny if you ask me. It is funny when she kicks the skelton and says "Thirsty? Have a drink!"

Well, I never really said I didn't like the Queen from Snow White. Just that I don't think her gallows' humor can compare to Maleficent's multi-layered evil.

[4th Life of Thomasina]

The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 2 (-2)
Ursula - 16

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

[Disney Duster]

Jay, I am not going to be the same as Lazario to you...hehe.

First, Maleficent used her raven to find Aurora, just like the Queen used her mirror to find Snow White.

Maleficent does do the job herself of putting Aurora to almost eternal sleep, just like the Queen put Snow White to sleep. But Maleficent also got to battle the Prince, the one who could actually awaken the princess, and near succeeded, she just had some magic fairies also going against her, a little different then just dwarfs (though I can see how the lightning bolt was like a supernatural/fate/God force).

Maleficent's spell is stopped by true love's kiss, but so is the Queen's spell!

What I was saying was that Maleficent has a stronger presense because she's in more scenes, she's more in the film, and she has bigger vocals and animation, she's even more dramatic. That doesn't mean Maleficent is flat out better than the Queen, I just think it's hard to argue she doesn't have more presence. But maybe you feel the Queen's cold evil is just so good she has more presence, even though she's present in less scenes. Well, if you really think that, but that's different from thinking the Queen is better, you know, it's not the same thing.

But well done Laz for pointing out the way Maleficent is in the same room as Aurora before her hypnotizing is very similar to when the fairies wonder if Maleficent could hear them. In fact, Flora shushes the fairies both times, and they're in similar locations.

I must say though I don't think the opening of Sleeping Beauty is meant to be unjoyful in the same way you do. Simply, I think Sleeping Beauty's world is a darker world. I mean, it is the middle ages. I think that it's the kind of world where joy is just...done in a darker way. I think the whole movie is just dark. And I don't think it's necessarily bad, it all really depends on what the filmakers wanted, and sometimes not even that, but just whatever people feel during the film.

For the record, Jay and Laz, I think she does have affection for her Raven, but yes, the same way the Devil would have affection for evil.

And I put Maleficent on a pedestal because her voice and animation came togetehr to make an amazing character no matter what her motivations or fail of logic or any of the complaints thrown against her. Like any of that matters in how awesome her performance is.

I will say however, I think the way Snow White shows the Queen, she is scarier, but I think Maleficent herself, like if I met her in real life, is scarier. If that makes sense.

The Evil Queen - 12 (-2)
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 6
Ursula - 14

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

[Jay]

Actually I said I wouldn't mind if Ursula or Lady Tremaine won I just didn't want Maleficent to win because as I said she wins every villain contest their is and I would like to see some variety. And I agree Eleanor Audley did a fantastic job voicing Maleficent if it wasn't for her the character wouldn't be as popular as she is in my opinion.

Well, of course not - as you probably know (but have obviously forgotten), she was cast well before she spoke her lines. She was used as a live-action reference when the animators were still creating the look of Maleficent. Audley is responsible for Maleficent's physical movements as well as the voice.

And the Queen is rather creepy in her scenes offering Snow White the apple. She has the old folksy granny act down but the the way she drops that and says "Fine! Fine! Now take a bite!" and the shot of her face lighting up as Snow White subcums to "sleeping death" is pretty disturbing in my opinion.

Old folksy granny? You mean the one who lived alone in a shed in the woods and kids were terrified of, ala- the witch in Hansel & Gretel? (I'm referencing both the candy-house witch and the stereotype of an old spinster.) Exactly whose grandmother is that creepy? There's no reason in the world Snow White should trust her. Therefore, the movie is playing on a different kind of logic. In essence, it's operating on the Jawbreaker logic ("they'll believe it because it's their worst nightmare"). It doesn't have to make sense. Well, please remember I'm not trying to take anything away from Snow White but since you brought it up; I will- she's a flawed villain in old hag form when you compare her to how Maleficent operated.

And yes Maleficent does have the powers but she seems to overestimate them throughout the film. The curse, capturing Phillip, transforming into a dragon. She is very arrogant which is understandable. But Maleficent never once has people in complete fear of her while in her presence. When she appears at the party nobody screams or runs away in fear they all just stand there. Everyone is intimidated in the Queen's presence. The huntsman, her raven and even the animals scurry at first at the sight of her. And yes they attack her but she still keeps her meance while getting Snow White to eat the apple.

Wait a second now...

First of all: there were several shots of people in the castle during Maleficent's entrance who were afraid of her. Remember- the closeups of the guards when she evaporated. Then, the Queen and Fauna. Check the scene again, you may find even more (depending upon whose face was onscreen). Only the King and 2 of the fairies didn't appear to be scared of her. And that's of course because they were being protective. Trying to put on a brave face. They were all scared.

Second: since this was somewhat spurred by the Old Hag scenes, I'll start there. Snow White is scared of everything. If you'll remember. She screamed and threw her hands up when she saw a bunny rabbit. And when she saw the Dwarfs. And when she saw a tree. And another tree. And another.

Third: You honestly believe the Huntsman was more intimidated by the Queen because she was a sorceress than he would be of any royalty giving him a command which he objected to? Back in those days, I'm sure they could cut off your head if you disobeyed them.

Fourth: The mirror wasn't scared of her. Neither were the vultures.

Fifth: Nobody is ever in the Queen's presence except for The Huntsman and the crow. Snow White is never seen in her presence and the one time she is, she doesn't know it because the Queen is in disguise. (Not that the disguise is fooling anyone except for stupid Snow White.)

And again the faries sit and freely talk about Maleficent and mention her name several times and think nothing of it. While when ever anyone mentions the Queen it strikes fear into the characters. When the huntsman tells Snow White it was the Queen's idea and later when Snow White mentions her name to the dwarfs they all immediately react in fear. The only time charactrs fear Maleficent is when she is screaming and throwing her magic around. The Queen is simply mentioned and characters are frightened.

Two important things.

1: Snow White is over-the-top. So, it doesn't matter what ideas they had. They're not as scary as Sleeping Beauty. Sleeping Beauty has more balance and spreads everything out over a broader field. So, they had the idea to have characters react in fear over a name. Sure- I'll give you that. But what good does it do when the heroine is an utter idiot, the Dwarfs are hasty stereotypes with really not that much personality between them (just Doc, Dopey, Grumpy really), and the music is too blunt to make anyone scared? Not that I'm ragging on the music, I love the score and I think it's great. For a fantasy. Not for any kind of spookiness or creepiness. In that area, Sleeping Beauty is superior.

2: The scene you referenced in Sleepy Beauty, you forget to mention that the fairies assumed they were safe to talk about Maleficent. Until Flora reminded them that someone/something might be listening. Now, chew on that for a second. Remember, specifically, the scene where a force of some supernature is playing with the fire in Aurora's fireplace and in the air we hear atmosphere that has a voice. The space itself seems alive. A lot of people continue to fail to put these two together. But the film didn't. There's always a sense of some deviousness or malice in the very atmosphere of every shot of the film- even before Maleficent is onscreen. That's more powerful than the Queen ever had.

And how exactly did she "rise to the occasion?" She screamed at her trolls and sent her raven out to find her. If she as all powerful why wouldn't she be able to find her by using the powers of hell?

You know I said when she was failed by her minions. Read back. I was talking about the scene where she attacks Phillip with her magic and is shown to physically be able to travel at the speed of [whatever], then confronts the good by transforming into a dragon. She didn't even have to say anything- she seems to have had the power to shapeshift all along. And knowing she had that power all along is terrifying if you learn it when she wants you to. She has more control than you're giving her credit for. As for: why didn't she just "do this, do that" with her magic - think about the mythical belief in evil. The Exorcist said the Devil believes in tricking people. When a guy looks at the possessed girl and says- "did you do that?" (move an object by force of magic), he tells the demon to do it again. The demon says: "that's much too vulgar a display of power." I took that as meaning not: save the magic because it runs out. But instead as: what's the good in giving people all you've got when they're expecting it? I believe the creative team were doling out evil in doses. They didn't want us to know all of what Maleficent was capable of until the movie reached a certain suspense or thrill peak. And you yourself agreed the dragon scene was powerful, so I think you know there's at least a little something to my theory.

And all she does is hypnotize Aroura. While it is an awesome scene it lacks the intensity and almost Hitchcockian suspense of the scenes where the Queen is offering Snow White the apple. And I don't understnad how the stakes were higher in Sleeping Beauty. The Queen was freaking insane while Maleficent was merely snobbish. She never got to the intensity of the Queen until her raven was turned to stone. And it is obvious she cares about her raven. She is seen stroking it several times and affectionately calls it "My pet" several times in a loving tone. So it's obvious she has feelings for it.

You're reading way too much into that bit. I'm questioning where certain things fit into a story structure. You're taking this one bit of character business which is nothing more than an insight into how Maleficent behaves and saying it changes the whole movie. No it doesn't. The moment where she sees the crow turned to stone means nothing. Watch the movie again. It's an indicator that things aren't going the way she planned. That's all. It's not some great movie defining moment where she's attacking Phillip to get revenge on her dead beloved bird. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Anyway, you don't get Maleficent. Her manners are not proof that she's not scary or evil. It's the way she expresses herself to others. She's trying to lull people into a false sense of security. I've seen a lot of movies about evil, some about spiritual and bodily possession and it so happens that the evil inside a demon or creature can be (and often is) a two-way street. You see one side and there's another layer underneath it. I think it's most likely a tradition that was established before Sleeping Beauty (whether it has its' roots in literature or whatever, I dunno) and they wanted to use it in their story. But I think most people can tell (and all fans of Maleficent do) that Maleficent is being two-faced in the scene you're using to try and discredit her.

Didn't you even stop to think about how much Aurora even meant to Maleficent? I promise you she wasn't jealous or anything. The whole kingdom put so much hope, joy, faith (etc) into this birth- that it was like energy emitting into the atmosphere and she could feel it. Now, before I let this sit and get read without explaining it, I have to aknowledge SuperAurora and Goliath's posts about the opening scene not feeling joyous and etc. I think it's because the fear of Maleficent was a cloud of dread that hung over the people's heads. So, they're summoning up all the strength they can to celebrate this birth and yet, in the movie it doesn't feel like much spirit. I say Maleficent felt it could turn into genuine hope, joy, faith (etc) if she didn't do something to stop the people from getting inspiration from the celebration. Note, for example, how she enters the castle at the very moment the fairies are giving their supernatural gifts. Her mission was symbolic. She was trying to destroy any trace of something "good" in the future. Not to mention the fairies putting their actual magic into the child. Giving it unfair advantages. So the whole kingdom would look at her "beauty" and hear her amazing voice and be reminded that there was a force in the universe that could challenge Maleficent's.

That's how the stakes were higher.

Now with all that in the story, you think the Queen can compare to that?
Really... ?

And the Queen is on screen for like 2 minutes before her dungeon scenes so not much really to judge her on there and it starts showing her insanity. And wanting a girls heart cut out and brought back in a box is hilarious. And during her transformation the Queen knows full well what she is doing to herself. As she adds each ingredient she states what it will do " Mummy dust to whiten my hair" ect. She knows she will be making drastic changes to herself but she is so deranged and into her goal that she is willing to do terrible things to herself to achieve it. Not so funny if you ask me. It is funny when she kicks the skelton and says "Thirsty? Have a drink!"

Well, I never really said I didn't like the Queen from Snow White. Just that I don't think her gallows' humor can compare to Maleficent's multi-layered evil.

No I haven't forgotten that Eleanor Audley was hand picked by Walt himself for the role and that she was a live action reference for the character. She was originally going to be hag like but Ms. Audley's vocals suggested a stronger appearance.

And how is she a flawed villain? She seemed to pretty much have everything down pact to me. And no there really were no shots when she appeared. People were looking on when the wind was blowing and everything. But when she herself appeared nobody reacted in horror. Fauna just said "Why it's Maleficent!" Nobody screamed or ran and the King had a pretty pissed look on his face throughout the scene. And of course the guards were terrified as she vanished because they were only inches away from flames.

And the Queen was a powerful woman. Obviously there is more to her than we see. I always thought her "faithful" huntsman was her mancandy and I feel her threats were deeper than simlpy having him executed. She could have been meaning to reveal their adultery to the huntsmans family and then kill his family and simply lock him in her dungeon and leave him there to starve and or die of thirst. Did you not see all the skulls and bodies in her dungeon? Obvioulsy this isn't the Queens first act of murder and she enjoys making people suiffer.

And of course Snow White is going to be scared she just learned her stepmother wanted her dead. I think if you foound out someone was out to kill you you would be a little jumpy yourself. And the mirror and the vultures werent scared of her because they were shown to be evil like the Queen herself.

And the fact that the Queen is seen in her regular form for so little time makes her very mysterious. She has an air of mystery around her and when she turns into the hag she lets her horrible true personality shins through. Because ehs is ugly on the outside she can let her ugliness on the inside pour out as well.

And Aroura is barley in the movie. She has a very unactive role while Snow White is given more to do and she is not an idiot just pure and naive. Trusing like a child which she is. And the faires arent any less of a sterotype than the dwarfs.

And in the scene where the dwarfs first meet Snow white Grumpy states that the Queen is full of balck magic and "she can be in his room right now." So obviously they know of the Queen's power and while she may not be as powerful as Maleficent she is powerful in her own right.

And it's obvious that Maleficent is upset at her raven's death. She gasps and is genuinley shocked to see he has been killed. And this adds to her drive to go after Phillip.

I have to admit I have no idea what you're talking about in the middle part but that is probably because it is late but it does sound interesting lol.

But yeah

The Evil Queen - 14 (+2)
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 2
Ursula - 14

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

PS Disney Duster Maleficent is not in more of the movie than the Queen both have about the same amount of screen time respectively in their movies.

[Lazario]

Wow, okay... Thanks, both of you, for getting so deep into this discussion that you screwed up the lists.

Here is the CORRECT list, everyone (with my today-vote included):

The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 2
Ursula - 18 (+2)

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

No I haven't forgotten that Eleanor Audley was hand picked by Walt himself for the role and that she was a live action reference for the character.

Than why did you say something as silly as "if it wasn't for her the character wouldn't be as popular as she is in my opinion"? I mean, think about it. She is Maleficent. She's the only Maleficent. You can't say there was a chance someone else could have been the character. Because she was the character. You suggested someone else could have come in and played the character as we know it but Audley created that character as we know it. So the entire movie would have been different from the animation stage, forget what people think of the character now. You're saying she would have made the character, but someone else would have done the voice? Absurd!

And how is she a flawed villain?

I repeat (and bolded the important part(s):

"Snow White is over-the-top. So, it doesn't matter what ideas they had. They're not as scary as Sleeping Beauty. So, they had the idea to have characters react in fear over a name. Sure- I'll give you that. But what good does it do when the heroine is an utter idiot, the Dwarfs are hasty stereotypes with really not that much personality between them (just Doc, Dopey, Grumpy really), and the music is too blunt to make anyone scared?"

Point being: the villainess is only as strong as her movie. If the movie gives us significantly flawed scenes with the heroine or the people the villainess is meant to be wreaking havoc upon, what good did all the stuff you're talking about - the build up and certain establishing scenes - ever do? Answer: not much.

And no there really were no shots when she appeared. People were looking on when the wind was blowing and everything.

Wait a second!! Again, you're abusing movie logic versus movie-watchers' logic. In the movie, all the people see is the wind blowing. Okay? They can't hear the music telling the audience watching the movie that something is coming and something is happening. We can. The audience. They may suspect it's Maleficent, but they first react to it as though it were just the wind. In fact... didn't you just prove me right in your own argument. Went ahead and said yourself, it takes Fauna to say: "it's Maleficent!" They don't know it's her at first. Could have just been the wind. Which I wouldn't be surprised if they reacted in a slight fright because Maleficent has them on-edge more than most kingdoms would be. Anything could have spooked them. This same theory, just to cover my ass here, doesn't apply to Snow White to explain why she overreacts and screams at everything.

But when she herself appeared nobody reacted in horror. Fauna just said "Why it's Maleficent!" Nobody screamed or ran and the King had a pretty pissed look on his face throughout the scene. And of course the guards were terrified as she vanished because they were only inches away from flames.

First of all, I already dealt with one of your points in my last reply. I repeat:

"Only the King and 2 of the fairies didn't appear to be scared of her. And that's of course because they were being protective. Trying to put on a brave face." My point was: you may argue the King wasn't scared but what do you think anger is? It's a front, a form of defense, to cover a weakness. Fear is a weakness. I'm putting the two together. He was scared.

Second: who is "nobody" in Sleeping Beauty? We don't see individual members of the kingdom, citizens / villagers / townspeople, whatever. It's part of the stylistic framework of the film that the nobodies you're refering to are treated like a flock of sheep in a sense. Or as backgrounds- extentions of. They affirm the atmosphere or keep it in check. Which means, if the tone of the scene suggests disaster, fear, excitement, they go along with it. You're suggesting the opposite is true. That their lack of a reaction proves Maleficent had less of a presence. Again, I don't agree (to say the least). Actually, another great example is: they're like the human race looking up at the sky while an alien spaceship is landing and they're unable to move because they're shocked / in awe.

As for the Guards... not a bad point you have there. But consider a couple of things: 1) You think they've never seen fire before? 2) If their expressions weren't of Maleficent's magic and instead just of the flames (something real her magic sparked in the atmosphere), why did they complete a full expression on their face, with eyes wide-open, and not jump backward? Wouldn't the brilliance from the intensity of the fire hurt their eyes? Yes it would. Wouldn't their faces show more sporadic movements (of eyes, skin, etc) if they were afraid of the fire? Yes, they would. And wouldn't they at any point... oh, I dunno... get the hell out of the way?!?!?! Yes, they would.

See for yourself, they're scared of Maleficent and her magic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCV0hy6ex1c

I'm not saying the reason they chose to stop in their tracks didn't have something to do with the fire. I'm saying- look at their faces. They're not reacting in "we can't go on, captain" mode. They're reacting in fear of her magic. Which pokes a significant hole in your theory.

And the Queen was a powerful woman. Obviously there is more to her than we see. I always thought her "faithful" huntsman was her mancandy and I feel her threats were deeper than simlpy having him executed. She could have been meaning to reveal their adultery to the huntsmans family and then kill his family and simply lock him in her dungeon and leave him there to starve and or die of thirst. Did you not see all the skulls and bodies in her dungeon? Obvioulsy this isn't the Queens first act of murder and she enjoys making people suffer.

To the last part - yes, I did. But you're taking for granted that just because she sentenced people to imprisonment and perhaps torture, that had a more personal involvement with their deaths. Her "thirsy? Have a drink" line (which is classic, I'd never argue that) could easily be the work of any spoiled member of royalty, amused by how power they have. It only takes apathy, not gall, to do something like that. You can't really say it proves that she took special enjoyment in suffering. She simply took a short moment of pleasure in seeing what she was able to bring about. Doesn't mean she really went down there and watched people suffer.

Again, you're reading way too much into something. I mean- a potential fling/affair, I'll give you. But- the huntsman's family? "I'll reveal our sexual history to" this person or that person?? That's just absurd. You say "obviously there is more to her than we see." But there's no indication that there's anywhere near as much stuff as you're finding in the story given to us by the movie itself.

And of course Snow White is going to be scared she just learned her stepmother wanted her dead. I think if you foound out someone was out to kill you you would be a little jumpy yourself.

A LITTLE jumpy?!?! By the way, she also screamed and threw her hands up (if I'm not mistaken) when the Prince showed up. Before this scene.... Okay, maybe it was more like a gasp, but she took off like Runaway Bride. Or the streets of Pamplona. Whilst flailing the aforementioned hands in the air.

Be serious, though: Snow White was scared of everything in sight. Because she was so stupid, her mouth opened before her eyes did. She's not a good meter to read if you want to know how dangerous the Queen was.

And the mirror and the vultures werent scared of her because they were shown to be evil like the Queen herself.

You can't prove that.

Vultures by nature's definition are scavengers. Only Melody Time showed them attacking their alleged prey before time of death. Their creepy expressions were nothing more than an artistic embellishment on public fear of them. The public knows if you see them, it's bad news. Which of course even goes further to prove my point that Snow White is over-the-top. But as far as character goes: they weren't evil. They were just excited.

The mirror was a drone. A spirit. That doesn't mean he's evil. In fact, he was very wise. And a power greater than the Queen, I think everyone would agree. If anything, you should be saying he's not afraid because he's magical. Not evil. I say he's not scared of her because he's wise. And as I write this, do you remember the end of Ichabod & Mr. Toad? The narrator, who you figure the Headless Horseman can't physically touch (in the same way the Queen can't touch the figure inside the mirror) the narrator- but he's scared anyway. I say it's a Disney tradition to have everyone afraid of villains. Heck, look at Smee- afraid of Hook. Creeper- afraid of Horned King. Kaa- afraid of Shere Kahn. The damned- afraid of Chernabog. Honest John and Gideon- afraid of the Coachman. Horace and Jasper- afraid of Cruella. Hiss- afraid of Prince John. Snoops- afraid of Medusa. Iago- afraid of Jafar. Hyenas- afraid of Scar. Amos- afraid of the big bad bear.

And the fact that the Queen is seen in her regular form for so little time makes her very mysterious. She has an air of mystery around her and when she turns into the hag she lets her horrible true personality shins through. Because ehs is ugly on the outside she can let her ugliness on the inside pour out as well.

That doesn't make much sense. The only mystery about her is the wait to see what she does next. And once you see the movie once, you know what she's capable of and everything she does. Only Maleficent has an aura that permeates mystically throughout the atmosphere of the film. Though there are some touches throughout other Disney classics that suggest something could be coming- seldomly attached to a villain. The "Tulgey Wood" scene in Alice in Wonderland- for example (the movie's best moody sequence- hear those kinda creepy birds chirping at the front and back of it). Especially as the Queen of Hearts is mentioned several times before we see her. Hey, look at that: she's still on the list here. She gets a build-up. Word of mouth. That's more than the Queen ever gets. She knows a little magic (far less than Ursula), which she just gets from a book. And has a mean streak. Most petty people do. I say it comes from selishness and apathy. Just look at politicians (and how far removed they are from the common working American). In a realistic context, The Queen wouldn't have magic, but she'd be in control of her kingdom, and with her attitude be more terrifying than Maleficent who - again, in a realistic context - would just be a derelict. A vagrant. Vincent Price in Theater of Blood. But, in a magical world, Maleficent is not human. Her wrath is something greater than a person's. The Queen? She's only too believably human. You can argue that's worth more in reality, but these moves take place in a fantasy world.

And Aroura is barley in the movie. She has a very unactive role while Snow White is given more to do and she is not an idiot just pure and naive. Trusing like a child which she is.

Jay, I just got through saying in my last reply that Aurora was a symbol of something. Therefore, she doesn't register as a heroine. What's your point? At least, since she wasn't a heroine, she wasn't a weakling- like Snow White. She's more like a magical object, again: she was spiritually blessed from the day of her birth. There's no contest here. Aurora's actual involvement in the movie as a character has no bearing on Maleficent's activities. Not like Snow White. Again, watch the apple scene but keep your attention focused on Snow White. Think about this event from her point of view. There is no motivation for her to bring this clearly predatory person into the house where she was living. Yet she does anyway. No reason to trust her. Yet she does anyway. And all along, she completely forgets the Dwarfs' warning because either she's an idiot and forgot, or she's an idiot and wasn't listening when they told her: don't let bitches in this house. (Okay, it was a cottage, but saying "house" is more fun.)

Snow White was an idiot. 's all there is to it. Not that I don't find the scene amusing in an absurd way...I do.

And the faires arent any less of a sterotype than the dwarfs.

They had better, more fleshed-out, and less cliched personalities. You can't deny it. They even held actual conversations that had nothing to do with the plot!! While Happy would whack Dopey, reprising untold Silly Symphony gags, Dopey was detailing what Figaro would do in Pinocchio, and Grumpy was busy establishing one of Disney's worst and most odious cliches in the book (the He-Man Woman Hater, which rears it's ugly head in: Peter Pan, Melody Time, The Aristocats, Robin Hood, The Black Cauldron, just to name a few), the fairies were actually engaging each other in displaying believable human characteristics. It may be old-fashioned, but it's good stuff. I mean, hell- that moment alone where Merriweather has to call "reality check" on Flora's plan ("I still think what I thunk before, I'm going to get those wands") - to which Fauna replies "You know... I think she's right," also the moment she actually chooses a side - is gold right there. And I say- better than anything the Dwarfs had going on. Goofy romance? Oh how cute: Dopey runs back for another kiss. Awwww...: Grumpy's blushing!! Sounds like the whole film needs some work in the writing department to me.

And in the scene where the dwarfs first meet Snow white Grumpy states that the Queen is full of balck magic and "she can be in his room right now." So obviously they know of the Queen's power and while she may not be as powerful as Maleficent she is powerful in her own right.

Oh, dear. Sounds like you might need a re-watch on that scene.

First: the music they play while Grumpy says those things is comical. Suggesting that he's being paranoid.

Second: The nature of plain village folk telling tales like this in film is a staple of urban legend. It's a form of gossip; "I heard they could do (this and that)." The male version of an Old Wives' Tail. Meaning- you have to take everything the speaker says with a grain of salt. That has bearing on this case, I believe, because there isn't a single piece of evidence throughout the film that what Grumpy says is true. Yes, the Queen has black magic. But; he also said earlier that the stew Snow White was cooking was probably poisoned, women are full of "wicked wiles," and suggesting that the Queen could be in the room at that moment? His dialogue is nothing more than his imagination running wild.

Third: consider the source. Grumpy. A character whose actions are tainted not by a desire to be protective, but by his need to feel like he's the leader rather than Doc (I think even Walt himself said something about Doc not being a real leader of their troop). This is a chance to get attention and seem like he's got everyone's best interests at heart. In fact, what he's doing for a moment isn't that much unlike Gaston. Except that he's right (where Gaston was wrong) and that when he doesn't get his way anyway- he sits with his arms and legs crossed, pouts, and complains.

And it's obvious that Maleficent is upset at her raven's death. She gasps and is genuinley shocked to see he has been killed. And this adds to her drive to go after Phillip.

Actually, the raven was transformed. It's no longer a raven- it's a block of stone. Maleficent was only shocked at this because she knew another form of magic was undoing her plans. And... her drive to go after Phillip? Uh-uh. She only was driven to go after him because he was trying to undo her spell. She waited 16 years and apparently obsessed over her plot every day of every one of those years- and you honestly think the raven is the reason for her intensity? Or that that had anything to do with her performance this moment? I'm saying "no," flat-out.

[avonleastories95]

OFF FOR HER HEAD!
The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 0 (-2)
Ursula - 18

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent
The Queen of Hearts

[Jay]

Wow, okay... Thanks, both of you, for getting so deep into this discussion that you screwed up the lists.

Here is the CORRECT list, everyone (with my today-vote included):

The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 12
The Queen of Hearts - 2
Ursula - 18 (+2)

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent

No I haven't forgotten that Eleanor Audley was hand picked by Walt himself for the role and that she was a live action reference for the character.

Than why did you say something as silly as "if it wasn't for her the character wouldn't be as popular as she is in my opinion"? I mean, think about it. She is Maleficent. She's the only Maleficent. You can't say there was a chance someone else could have been the character. Because she was the character. You suggested someone else could have come in and played the character as we know it but Audley created that character as we know it. So the entire movie would have been different from the animation stage, forget what people think of the character now. You're saying she would have made the character, but someone else would have done the voice? Absurd!

And how is she a flawed villain?

I repeat (and bolded the important part(s):

"Snow White is over-the-top. So, it doesn't matter what ideas they had. They're not as scary as Sleeping Beauty. So, they had the idea to have characters react in fear over a name. Sure- I'll give you that. But what good does it do when the heroine is an utter idiot, the Dwarfs are hasty stereotypes with really not that much personality between them (just Doc, Dopey, Grumpy really), and the music is too blunt to make anyone scared?"

Point being: the villainess is only as strong as her movie. If the movie gives us significantly flawed scenes with the heroine or the people the villainess is meant to be wreaking havoc upon, what good did all the stuff you're talking about - the build up and certain establishing scenes - ever do? Answer: not much.

And no there really were no shots when she appeared. People were looking on when the wind was blowing and everything.

Wait a second!! Again, you're abusing movie logic versus movie-watchers' logic. In the movie, all the people see is the wind blowing. Okay? They can't hear the music telling the audience watching the movie that something is coming and something is happening. We can. The audience. They may suspect it's Maleficent, but they first react to it as though it were just the wind. In fact... didn't you just prove me right in your own argument. Went ahead and said yourself, it takes Fauna to say: "it's Maleficent!" They don't know it's her at first. Could have just been the wind. Which I wouldn't be surprised if they reacted in a slight fright because Maleficent has them on-edge more than most kingdoms would be. Anything could have spooked them. This same theory, just to cover my ass here, doesn't apply to Snow White to explain why she overreacts and screams at everything.

But when she herself appeared nobody reacted in horror. Fauna just said "Why it's Maleficent!" Nobody screamed or ran and the King had a pretty pissed look on his face throughout the scene. And of course the guards were terrified as she vanished because they were only inches away from flames.

First of all, I already dealt with one of your points in my last reply. I repeat:

"Only the King and 2 of the fairies didn't appear to be scared of her. And that's of course because they were being protective. Trying to put on a brave face." My point was: you may argue the King wasn't scared but what do you think anger is? It's a front, a form of defense, to cover a weakness. Fear is a weakness. I'm putting the two together. He was scared.

Second: who is "nobody" in Sleeping Beauty? We don't see individual members of the kingdom, citizens / villagers / townspeople, whatever. It's part of the stylistic framework of the film that the nobodies you're refering to are treated like a flock of sheep in a sense. Or as backgrounds- extentions of. They affirm the atmosphere or keep it in check. Which means, if the tone of the scene suggests disaster, fear, excitement, they go along with it. You're suggesting the opposite is true. That their lack of a reaction proves Maleficent had less of a presence. Again, I don't agree (to say the least). Actually, another great example is: they're like the human race looking up at the sky while an alien spaceship is landing and they're unable to move because they're shocked / in awe.

As for the Guards... not a bad point you have there. But consider a couple of things: 1) You think they've never seen fire before? 2) If their expressions weren't of Maleficent's magic and instead just of the flames (something real her magic sparked in the atmosphere), why did they complete a full expression on their face, with eyes wide-open, and not jump backward? Wouldn't the brilliance from the intensity of the fire hurt their eyes? Yes it would. Wouldn't their faces show more sporadic movements (of eyes, skin, etc) if they were afraid of the fire? Yes, they would. And wouldn't they at any point... oh, I dunno... get the hell out of the way?!?!?! Yes, they would.

See for yourself, they're scared of Maleficent and her magic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCV0hy6ex1c

I'm not saying the reason they chose to stop in their tracks didn't have something to do with the fire. I'm saying- look at their faces. They're not reacting in "we can't go on, captain" mode. They're reacting in fear of her magic. Which pokes a significant hole in your theory.

And the Queen was a powerful woman. Obviously there is more to her than we see. I always thought her "faithful" huntsman was her mancandy and I feel her threats were deeper than simlpy having him executed. She could have been meaning to reveal their adultery to the huntsmans family and then kill his family and simply lock him in her dungeon and leave him there to starve and or die of thirst. Did you not see all the skulls and bodies in her dungeon? Obvioulsy this isn't the Queens first act of murder and she enjoys making people suffer.

To the last part - yes, I did. But you're taking for granted that just because she sentenced people to imprisonment and perhaps torture, that had a more personal involvement with their deaths. Her "thirsy? Have a drink" line (which is classic, I'd never argue that) could easily be the work of any spoiled member of royalty, amused by how power they have. It only takes apathy, not gall, to do something like that. You can't really say it proves that she took special enjoyment in suffering. She simply took a short moment of pleasure in seeing what she was able to bring about. Doesn't mean she really went down there and watched people suffer.

Again, you're reading way too much into something. I mean- a potential fling/affair, I'll give you. But- the huntsman's family? "I'll reveal our sexual history to" this person or that person?? That's just absurd. You say "obviously there is more to her than we see." But there's no indication that there's anywhere near as much stuff as you're finding in the story given to us by the movie itself.

And of course Snow White is going to be scared she just learned her stepmother wanted her dead. I think if you foound out someone was out to kill you you would be a little jumpy yourself.

A LITTLE jumpy?!?! By the way, she also screamed and threw her hands up (if I'm not mistaken) when the Prince showed up. Before this scene.... Okay, maybe it was more like a gasp, but she took off like Runaway Bride. Or the streets of Pamplona. Whilst flailing the aforementioned hands in the air.

Be serious, though: Snow White was scared of everything in sight. Because she was so stupid, her mouth opened before her eyes did. She's not a good meter to read if you want to know how dangerous the Queen was.

And the mirror and the vultures werent scared of her because they were shown to be evil like the Queen herself.

You can't prove that.

Vultures by nature's definition are scavengers. Only Melody Time showed them attacking their alleged prey before time of death. Their creepy expressions were nothing more than an artistic embellishment on public fear of them. The public knows if you see them, it's bad news. Which of course even goes further to prove my point that Snow White is over-the-top. But as far as character goes: they weren't evil. They were just excited.

The mirror was a drone. A spirit. That doesn't mean he's evil. In fact, he was very wise. And a power greater than the Queen, I think everyone would agree. If anything, you should be saying he's not afraid because he's magical. Not evil. I say he's not scared of her because he's wise. And as I write this, do you remember the end of Ichabod & Mr. Toad? The narrator, who you figure the Headless Horseman can't physically touch (in the same way the Queen can't touch the figure inside the mirror) the narrator- but he's scared anyway. I say it's a Disney tradition to have everyone afraid of villains. Heck, look at Smee- afraid of Hook. Creeper- afraid of Horned King. Kaa- afraid of Shere Kahn. The damned- afraid of Chernabog. Honest John and Gideon- afraid of the Coachman. Horace and Jasper- afraid of Cruella. Hiss- afraid of Prince John. Snoops- afraid of Medusa. Iago- afraid of Jafar. Hyenas- afraid of Scar. Amos- afraid of the big bad bear.

And the fact that the Queen is seen in her regular form for so little time makes her very mysterious. She has an air of mystery around her and when she turns into the hag she lets her horrible true personality shins through. Because ehs is ugly on the outside she can let her ugliness on the inside pour out as well.

That doesn't make much sense. The only mystery about her is the wait to see what she does next. And once you see the movie once, you know what she's capable of and everything she does. Only Maleficent has an aura that permeates mystically throughout the atmosphere of the film. Though there are some touches throughout other Disney classics that suggest something could be coming- seldomly attached to a villain. The "Tulgey Wood" scene in Alice in Wonderland- for example (the movie's best moody sequence- hear those kinda creepy birds chirping at the front and back of it). Especially as the Queen of Hearts is mentioned several times before we see her. Hey, look at that: she's still on the list here. She gets a build-up. Word of mouth. That's more than the Queen ever gets. She knows a little magic (far less than Ursula), which she just gets from a book. And has a mean streak. Most petty people do. I say it comes from selishness and apathy. Just look at politicians (and how far removed they are from the common working American). In a realistic context, The Queen wouldn't have magic, but she'd be in control of her kingdom, and with her attitude be more terrifying than Maleficent who - again, in a realistic context - would just be a derelict. A vagrant. Vincent Price in Theater of Blood. But, in a magical world, Maleficent is not human. Her wrath is something greater than a person's. The Queen? She's only too believably human. You can argue that's worth more in reality, but these moves take place in a fantasy world.

And Aroura is barley in the movie. She has a very unactive role while Snow White is given more to do and she is not an idiot just pure and naive. Trusing like a child which she is.

Jay, I just got through saying in my last reply that Aurora was a symbol of something. Therefore, she doesn't register as a heroine. What's your point? At least, since she wasn't a heroine, she wasn't a weakling- like Snow White. She's more like a magical object, again: she was spiritually blessed from the day of her birth. There's no contest here. Aurora's actual involvement in the movie as a character has no bearing on Maleficent's activities. Not like Snow White. Again, watch the apple scene but keep your attention focused on Snow White. Think about this event from her point of view. There is no motivation for her to bring this clearly predatory person into the house where she was living. Yet she does anyway. No reason to trust her. Yet she does anyway. And all along, she completely forgets the Dwarfs' warning because either she's an idiot and forgot, or she's an idiot and wasn't listening when they told her: don't let bitches in this house. (Okay, it was a cottage, but saying "house" is more fun.)

Snow White was an idiot. 's all there is to it. Not that I don't find the scene amusing in an absurd way...I do.

And the faires arent any less of a sterotype than the dwarfs.

They had better, more fleshed-out, and less cliched personalities. You can't deny it. They even held actual conversations that had nothing to do with the plot!! While Happy would whack Dopey, reprising untold Silly Symphony gags, Dopey was detailing what Figaro would do in Pinocchio, and Grumpy was busy establishing one of Disney's worst and most odious cliches in the book (the He-Man Woman Hater, which rears it's ugly head in: Peter Pan, Melody Time, The Aristocats, Robin Hood, The Black Cauldron, just to name a few), the fairies were actually engaging each other in displaying believable human characteristics. It may be old-fashioned, but it's good stuff. I mean, hell- that moment alone where Merriweather has to call "reality check" on Flora's plan ("I still think what I thunk before, I'm going to get those wands") - to which Fauna replies "You know... I think she's right," also the moment she actually chooses a side - is gold right there. And I say- better than anything the Dwarfs had going on. Goofy romance? Oh how cute: Dopey runs back for another kiss. Awwww...: Grumpy's blushing!! Sounds like the whole film needs some work in the writing department to me.

And in the scene where the dwarfs first meet Snow white Grumpy states that the Queen is full of balck magic and "she can be in his room right now." So obviously they know of the Queen's power and while she may not be as powerful as Maleficent she is powerful in her own right.

Oh, dear. Sounds like you might need a re-watch on that scene.

First: the music they play while Grumpy says those things is comical. Suggesting that he's being paranoid.

Second: The nature of plain village folk telling tales like this in film is a staple of urban legend. It's a form of gossip; "I heard they could do (this and that)." The male version of an Old Wives' Tail. Meaning- you have to take everything the speaker says with a grain of salt. That has bearing on this case, I believe, because there isn't a single piece of evidence throughout the film that what Grumpy says is true. Yes, the Queen has black magic. But; he also said earlier that the stew Snow White was cooking was probably poisoned, women are full of "wicked wiles," and suggesting that the Queen could be in the room at that moment? His dialogue is nothing more than his imagination running wild.

Third: consider the source. Grumpy. A character whose actions are tainted not by a desire to be protective, but by his need to feel like he's the leader rather than Doc (I think even Walt himself said something about Doc not being a real leader of their troop). This is a chance to get attention and seem like he's got everyone's best interests at heart. In fact, what he's doing for a moment isn't that much unlike Gaston. Except that he's right (where Gaston was wrong) and that when he doesn't get his way anyway- he sits with his arms and legs crossed, pouts, and complains.

And it's obvious that Maleficent is upset at her raven's death. She gasps and is genuinley shocked to see he has been killed. And this adds to her drive to go after Phillip.

Actually, the raven was transformed. It's no longer a raven- it's a block of stone. Maleficent was only shocked at this because she knew another form of magic was undoing her plans. And... her drive to go after Phillip? Uh-uh. She only was driven to go after him because he was trying to undo her spell. She waited 16 years and apparently obsessed over her plot every day of every one of those years- and you honestly think the raven is the reason for her intensity? Or that that had anything to do with her performance this moment? I'm saying "no," flat-out.

I didn't mean that anyone else was considered for the role of Maleficent I just said that she made the character what she is. Your getting me confused on that one lol.

As for the affair thing I always thought of that bit I use to make things up like that in movies like I use to imagine Maleficent was apart of the King's court and then she went evil. I just like to put things like that into movies.

And I would say the Queen has a little bit more than a mean streak. I would say she is a sociopath who gets pleasure from others suffering. And I would imagine that she would go down to the torture chambers and watch her victims suffer. And the Queen is in the first scene of the movie so the audience already knows who she is. No real need to build her up.

And I meant that she is mysterious because we don't know how she got the mirror or how she became the fariest one of all. Why is Snow White's father not around. How did she get her magic spell books. We no basically nothing about her. Of course the same could be said for Maleficent but we see more of her than we do of the Queen in her regular form. And in her regular form the Queen never seems to be completly comfortable with herself. She is cold and uptight and never once cracks a smile. Then once she turns into the hag her ugly personality comes through because she is ugly on the outside now she can show her ugliness on the inside.

And I still say that she cared for her raven. And I was a little drunk when I responded lol I didn't mean to say that her raven's death made her go after Phillip it just helped drive her even more.


The Evil Queen - 14
Lady Tremaine - 14(+2)
Ursula - 18

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent
The Queen of Hearts

[Disney's Divinity]

The Evil Queen - 12 (-2)
Lady Tremaine - 14
Ursula - 18

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent
The Queen of Hearts

[TheSequelOfDisney]

I've never seen so much conversation in the Polls & Games section!

The Evil Queen - 10 (-2)
Lady Tremaine - 14
Ursula - 18

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent
The Queen of Hearts

[Lazario]

I've never seen so much conversation in the Polls & Games section!

Well, I think it's over now.

I thought your ideas were good, Jay. Just not exactly believable.


As for the list... With Maleficent gone, the rest kinda seem so shabby. To explain my future votes, Jay said he doesn't think the best should necessarily win every time. So I'm voting for favorites now:


The Evil Queen - 10
Lady Tremaine - 12 (-2)
Ursula - 18

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent
The Queen of Hearts

[Big Disney Fan]

Can we drop the discussions already and get back to the game, please?!?

The Evil Queen - 10
Lady Tremaine - 10 (-2)
Ursula - 18

Eliminated:
Marina Del Ray
Queen Narissa
Morgana
Zira
Helga Sinclair
Madame Medusa
Mad Madam Mim
Yzma
Mother Gothel
Cruella de Vil
Maleficent
The Queen of Hearts