The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part III

[Flanger-Hanger]

But I do agree that the marketing for TP&TF could have been much better. Most of what they did was refer to past magna-hits ("the fab four") to tell people, "PLEASE! Give us another chance at your money! We used to make films you loved!" The focus on Ray--who wasn't done justice in the trailers at all--didn't help either.

Ray was far more likable than the trailers led me to believe, however they failed to show alot of things including any song in some detail. Even the great animation in "Almost There" was ignored completely, along with Charlotte for the most part.

[Goliath]

But perhaps I am rooting for it's downfall, because it shows that there is a flaw in exclusively marketing a film as a tie in for a brand which rarely if ever accurately depicts the films they supposedly represent. Or that nostalgia and an attempt to cash in on it's hype instead of selling the film on it's own merits is not the best idea. If the film "fails", it's Disney's own fault.

Oh, I agree about that. The marketing has been horrible. It *has* been pushed as just another 'Disney Princess' film, and it relied far too much on announcements like "from the directors of Little Mermaid and Aladdin..." The trailers give a very distorted image of the film, I think (having read about the film only, of course). So yes, we agree on that. But I don't think it's necessary to express JOY over the failure a film that's been well-received by both critics and those in the audience who've seen it.

[Flanger-Hanger]

Oh, I agree about that. The marketing has been horrible. It *has* been pushed as just another 'Disney Princess' film, and it relied far too much on announcements like "from the directors of Little Mermaid and Aladdin..." The trailers give a very distorted image of the film, I think (having read about the film only, of course). So yes, we agree on that.

What previous successes Disney has had is the result of broad, even cross generational appeal that allow them become financially successful. Assuming one small demographic can make a film a hit is ridiculous. Heck, the merch was bound to be successful by default of it begin new and involving the words "Disney" and "Princess".

But I don't think it's necessary to express JOY over the failure a film that's been well-received by both critics and those in the audience who've seen it.

Well if those who saw it enjoyed it, than they shouldn't care what I think about the film's performance. And if people who saw it liked it, why was it a failure (same is true for The Fantastic Mr. Fox)?

However, it would be very unreasonable to assume that everyone is happy with it's performance and that everybody who isn't is just some evil Monty Burns caricature of a business tycoon. If there is a problem, making it sound better won't make it go away.

There should be some interesting discussion about what Disney could have done better in a discussion board for a film, but for every "mean" post I make there is easily a dozen or more posts insisting that any other view besides "this is a great 'Renaissance' success and that's that" is wrong for reasons that don't follow any logical sequence of thought given the facts out there. What "JOY" I have is based more on reading the humorous hype and reaction surrounding this film and everything related to it, not that the film didn't meet it's expectations.

[Flanger-Hanger]

Anyway, I think TP&TF's gross is somewhat disappointing. But, trying to look on the bright side, I can't help but think about Mermaid's small gross...

LM's gross was anything but "small". It may seem so compared to what followed and not adjusting for inflation, but it was quite a record breaking sum. Not only did it beat the previous record set by Oliver and Company (yes that was a record setter), it really squashed the competition from Don Bluth's All Dogs Go to Heaven released the same day.

It is possible that The Snow Queen's performance could build on what Frog archived based on word of mouth and a newer interest in Disney, but the impact Mermaid created has not been matched or seen anything similar too by Frog so I don't think it's going to influence Queen's performance that much. However Snow Queen, and other future 2-D Disney releases could also become a hit based on their own merits.

[MerXAN]

Disney fans get ill after copying 'Princess and Frog' movie

London Daily Star
YOUNG Disney fans are becoming ill after copying the heroine of a new cartoon film – and kissing a frog. Health experts issued a warning ahead of the film, The Princess and the Frog, opening in Britain this week.

More than 50 children have been taken to hospital in the US suffering from salmonella poisioning after the fairytale hit screens there in December. In the movie, the beautiful Princess Tiana kisses a frog, who turns out to be a prince.

Most of those infected in the US were girls aged under 10 and now medics are warning wannabe princesses in Britain not to take the risk with any pet or wild amphibians. The experts’ message is: “Please do not kiss frogs.”

One expert said: “Princess Tiana washing her hands after every encounter with the frog probably would have taken away some of that Disney magic. But it would help any misguided frog owners keep their happily-ever-afters.”

http://www.visionsfantastic.com/forum/f ... ogs-28194/

[pap64]

Uuuuuuuuuuh...

Wasn't Tiana's HUGE disgust at Froggy Naveen enough to warn girls that kissing frogs is just silly and unsanitary?

[Disney's Divinity]

I'm sorry, but TLM did not sell that much better than TP&TF. Box Office Mojo says its domestic was $111 million and I'm not even sure if it's separated the 1989 release from 1997 one. And on the chart for Disney film grosses, TP&TF is only 4 spaces down from TLM.

The domestic of the films before each: The Black Cauldron made $21 million, TGMD made $38, and Oliver and Company made $74 million; Treasure Planet made $38 million, Brother Bear made $85 million and Home On The Range made $50 million. Of these, I think only TBC and TP were massive losses, considering they both had pretty high budgets (TGMD is pretty low, but I don't think the budget was that high for it). I have no idea about the budgets of TLM and TP&TF, but I would think they were on the same level. TP&F has a higher standard of animation, but Mermaid had a helluva lot of special effects.

Overall, Mermaid was more of a cultural smash that changed people's then-current view about Disney, although it did reasonably well financially for its time, and was a stepping stone to greater success. TP&TF hasn't, I don't think, been as huge a smash in that way--I actually think Enchanted has made more of an impact, though it will be easily forgotten down the line--but it has stirred people into remembering that 2D Disney still exists. Unlike with Mermaid, TP&TF follows a period where the 2D animation studio was actually closed; not on the brink, but past it. It's $100 million is, at least, a small feat, similar to Mermaid's, which will hopefully bring interest back to Disney (if they don't give up and cancel future 2D projects]). On the other hand, Mermaid follows a decade or 2 when Disney didn't have a huge hit, whereas TP&TF has Lilo & Stitch not far behind it.

So, ultimately, I don't see how Mermaid and TP&TF can't be compared to some extent. If, in the end, TP&TF doesn't lead to greater success a la B&tB, Aladdin and TLK, at least it will have made as much as the first of the Fab Four and on line with a few from the 90s.

(Also, TLM wasn't that long ago, so I doubt its adjusted gross would see that much difference.)

Edit: And please don't take this as me trying to equate TP&TF with the past Golden Age, just me wondering if TLM would have really been considered such a hit or that much different from TP&TF if they if B&tB et al hadn't followed it (and I do that with as much reverence as possible, considering it's my favorite film. Period.).

[estefan]

Uuuuuuuuuuh...

Wasn't Tiana's HUGE disgust at Froggy Naveen enough to warn girls that kissing frogs is just silly and unsanitary?

Agreed. Plus, doesn't Tiana turn into a frog herself, because she's not a princess? So, I don't get what makes girls so intent on kissing a frog. Especially since real frogs don't talk and lack Naveen's charm (and teeth, lol).

[Flanger-Hanger]

(Also, TLM wasn't that long ago, so I doubt its adjusted gross would see that much difference.)

20 years is a big difference for sure. Just typing in $84 million on a CPI calculator, you'd get about $140 million today and it could be higher. The average movie ticket price in 1989 was $4, today it's $7.29. Doing some math it becomes $153 million. Inflation can't be ignored here.

And again, no animated movie had ever made that much money, which is why it was so impressive. Today even $153 million doesn't come close to what Up or Alvin did.

You're totals also include re-issues for GMD and O&C.

And here's an interesting list of some of this decades DAC adjusted for inflation:

Fantasia 2000: $86 million (used 1999 average price, $81 million with 2000)
Emperor's New Groove: $120 million
Atlantis: $108 million
Lilo and Stitch: $184 million
Treasure Planet: $47 million
Brother Bear: $102 million
Home on the Range: $58 million

[Goliath]

There should be some interesting discussion about what Disney could have done better in a discussion board for a film, but for every "mean" post I make there is easily a dozen or more posts insisting that any other view besides "this is a great 'Renaissance' success and that's that" is wrong for reasons that don't follow any logical sequence of thought given the facts out there.

Well, as I have experienced myself, there is almost no room on Ultimate Disney to be critical of anything that Disney does or puts out. Whether it be its unethical business in 3r world countries; Walt's ratting out of colleagues during the HUAC hearings; or just simply making bad films: the basic reaction you get is to shut up because you're being "too negative". Most of the people here are just so in love with the corporate logo that they simply refuse to see anything wrong with it --valid reasons and arguments be damned. They don't respond to that; they have no interest in that. Wanna bet that my newly created thread about Billy Cyrus' whoring out of his 9 year old daughter will only generate replies like: "LEAVE THE CYRUS-FAMILY ALONE!!!1!1"?

[Sotiris]

Well, as I have experienced myself, there is almost no room on Ultimate Disney to be critical of anything that Disney does or puts out. Whether it be its unethical business in 3r world countries; Walt's ratting out of colleagues during the HUAC hearings; or just simply making bad films: the basic reaction you get is to shut up because you're being "too negative". Most of the people here are just so in love with the corporate logo that they simply refuse to see anything wrong with it --valid reasons and arguments be damned. They don't respond to that; they have no interest in that. Wanna bet that my newly created thread about Billy Cyrus' whoring out of his 9 year old daughter will only generate replies like: "LEAVE THE CYRUS-FAMILY ALONE!!!1!1"?

Goliath, just because 2 or 3 members are like that, doesn't mean they represent the whole forum. I think the best is to be fair with Disney; i.e. both criticize its shortcomings (which unfortunately keep multiplying) but also acknowledge any aesthetic and/or financial successes.

[disneyboy20022]

Uuuuuuuuuuh...

Wasn't Tiana's HUGE disgust at Froggy Naveen enough to warn girls that kissing frogs is just silly and unsanitary?

Well...this isnt the first time something like this has happened,


Remember a Disney/Pixar Film called Finding Nemo....and apparently kids flushed their pet goldfish down the drain to set them free to the ocean...

[blackcauldron85]

Andreas Deja: The legendary Disney animator discusses bringing his latest character to life.
http://www.littlewhitelies.co.uk/interv ... reas-deja/
(via laughingplace.com)

[jpanimation]

I just watched The Thing today and found it ironic that Keith David's character says: "I cannot believe this voodoo bullshit!"

[Sky Syndrome]

I can hardly wait for the DVD. I've got a great idea for a tribute music video!

I just watched The Thing today and found it ironic that Keith David's character says: "I cannot believe this voodoo bullshit!"

I want to see that film. Before TPatF, I didn't know of Keith. According to his filmography following seeing TPatF, other than that and Coraline (in which he voiced a cat), pretty much everything else, along with Gargoyles, was stuff I hadn't seen much to know it well or never heard of/seen before. Now I'm interested in watching other stuff listed in his filmography. The Thing sounds familiar but I have no recollection on what it's about.

[disneyboy20022]

I can hardly wait for the DVD. I've got a great idea for a tribute music video!

I just watched The Thing today and found it ironic that Keith David's character says: "I cannot believe this voodoo bullshit!"

I want to see that film. Before TPatF, I didn't know of Keith. According to his filmography following seeing TPatF, other than that and Coraline (in which he voiced a cat), pretty much everything else, along with Gargoyles, was stuff I hadn't seen much to know it well or never heard of/seen before. Now I'm interested in watching other stuff listed in his filmography. The Thing sounds familiar but I have no recollection on what it's about.

Go to this link and click on the 53 second part of this trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdl1iisY8mk

yeah he was in both movies of the Cody Banks flms with Frankie Muniz


EDIT - Just found this on youtube..its a Montage of the Movies Kieth David aka in TPATF Dr Facilier's voice has been in via youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRhJe93zYvI

[jpanimation]

I can hardly wait for the DVD. I've got a great idea for a tribute music video!

I just watched The Thing today and found it ironic that Keith David's character says: "I cannot believe this voodoo bullshit!"

I want to see that film. Before TPatF, I didn't know of Keith. According to his filmography following seeing TPatF, other than that and Coraline (in which he voiced a cat), pretty much everything else, along with Gargoyles, was stuff I hadn't seen much to know it well or never heard of/seen before. Now I'm interested in watching other stuff listed in his filmography. The Thing sounds familiar but I have no recollection on what it's about.

The Thing is an 80's remake of a 50's movie about an alien landing and terrorizing an isolated arctic base (it's completely different then the original). Some movies with Keith David I recommend are Platoon (great Vietnam war movie) and Pitch Black (it's like a modern B movie version of Alien). If you like Keith's voice in Gargoyles then you should check out the other animated show that he's known for, Todd McFarlane's Spawn, a personal favorite of mine (be warned it's pretty adult in nature). Personally, he will always be Spawn to me and the good news is he's expected to play Spawn in the new series.

[blackcauldron85]

http://blueskydisney.blogspot.com/2010/ ... orrow.html

There are several factors that also seem to have worked against Frog as well. The holiday release date which is so jam packed as well affected this (Pixar in my estimation gets the more desirable summer openings).

Thoughts? Do any of you think that if the past many (really, Treasure Planet through [/i]Rapunzel[/i] will have been non-summer releases!)(but, just thinking about it now, many Pixar films haven't been summer releases...Toy Story, Monsters, Inc., The Incredibles...just from memory)DACs had been released in the summer, that they'd have done better at the box office? (I think that competing against popular film franchises is the bigger problem, at least when you compare holiday and summer releases, because the kids are out of school anyway for those.) Starting to get off-topic, but do you feel that films that are released at random times (like March or April, or October) get the short end of the stick, since not all kids have vacation then?


***

A SlashFilm documentary on TP&tF:

http://blueskydisney.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ntary.html

(I'll have to watch it later, but the blog writer says that it's "very nice".)

[Wonderlicious]

Do any of you think that if the past many (really, Treasure Planet through [/i]Rapunzel[/i] will have been non-summer releases!)(but, just thinking about it now, many Pixar films haven't been summer releases...Toy Story, Monsters, Inc., The Incredibles...just from memory)DACs had been released in the summer, that they'd have done better at the box office? (I think that competing against popular film franchises is the bigger problem, at least when you compare holiday and summer releases, because the kids are out of school anyway for those.) Starting to get off-topic, but do you feel that films that are released at random times (like March or April, or October) get the short end of the stick, since not all kids have vacation then?

You've raised a point there, though to be honest, I still am not quite sure what can be made about the whole situation. Things have changed so much since the 90s, and I can't help but think that lack of confidence in Disney does play a great part (or the idea of being swayed by flashier things). Sure, Lilo and Stitch did well in summer, but what about Atlantis?

Easter (March/April) seems to me to be a bit of a hit-and-miss time as far as guaranteeing success is concerned. That has made me somewhat concerned about how well Alice in Wonderland will do, in all fairness. Of course, Home on the Range did pretty appallingly, though that was generally out of a lack of enthusiasm for traditional animation on Disney's part. I can understand why Disney might have tended to re-release films around this period, as it's really only semi-lucrative.

Naturally, films released at more random times do tend to get the short end of the stick. In the UK (and much of Europe for that matter), things are perhaps not so drastic as schools are pretty much guaranteed around a week's holiday at the end of October and the middle of February, and these periods have, at least in the UK, in general been used as times in which to showcase big family films. Up, Finding Nemo, Pocahontas, Mulan and The Lion King are just a few examples of films that, as far as I can recall, were released in America in the summer yet premiered in the autumn in the UK. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, people here waited around a year before a new Disney animated film released the previous November/December in the USA would hit screens, mainly so that it filled the October half-term week. And many Disney films released in November/December in the USA get released in much of Europe towards February as there is another lucrative school holiday for a week or so (The Princess and the Frog has only just opened in the UK and France, for example).

Maybe summer is overall perhaps a better time-slot for America, but equally, Disney has always been associated to some extent with the Christmas and winter slots, which is probably why Disney has released a good number of their animated films in the 21st century then; Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid and Aladdin all got the Thanksgiving/Christmas slots, and older popular films (Snow White, Cinderella, The Jungle Book etc) tend to get put out on home video in time for Christmas. Then again, the turnaround between the cinema and home video has changed dramatically, and of course, all the late 80s/early 90s films did well because of being out for quite a long time. I think that a great part of the problem with box-office figures these days is that the gap between the silver and the small screen has shrunken too much, which has caused the reception of Disney animation to falter a lot. Really, the gap between the date of theatrical release and the date of DVD/Blu-Ray release need to be at least six months apart. If Disney disciplined themselves a bit more, then families would realise that going to the cinema isn't such a bad idea after all.

[2099net]

It doesn't matter when a film is released these days. Throughout the whole year, there's a big tentpole movie being released every 2 or 3 weeks - even more in the summer.

If people are moaning about TPatF going against Avatar, then how do you think it would do in the summer going against Iron Man 2, Robin Hood, Shrek 4Ever After, Prince of Persia, Marmaduke, The A-Team, The Karate Kid, Toy Story 3, Twilight Saga: Eclipse, The Last Airbender and The Sorcerer's Apprentice (all known "franchises" to differing extents).

Believe me, the crossover audience with Avatar and tPatF was no greater than any other time in the summer. I don't buy the release date argument (from a US perspective) at all. There is no time where you would find a clear 3 week window suitable for releasing the film. In fact, the release date to me, seems like the best it could be - I personally would avoid the summer because its too crowded, and while the Holidays may be preferable keep in mind there's always a slew of family films released at that time to take into consideration. But on the whole it seems the best.

However, I do feel the US release does impact on overseas box office. After all, in the UK and some other parts of Europe, we've only just got it. Why are certain parts of the world on a staggered release? It doesn't happen for the big blockbusters (we all expect Iron Man 2 and Prince of Persia etc to open more or less at the same time worldwide) so why are Disney's animated films different?

Let's face it, why would anyone on the fence pay to see a movie in a theatre when they can import the soon to be released US DVD and save themselves about £30 on a family outing by doing so? I really don't see why the film couldn't have opened here closer to Christmas - after all, all the children are off school at that time.

Disney really need to co-ordinate their releases if they want to maximise box office potentials to take in to account (whether they like it or not) we are living in a global economy and people have much more options for how they view their entertainment these days.