The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part II

blackcauldron85 · Post by **blackcauldron85** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:38 pm

So, I have a free subscription to "Woman's Day" magazine, and I just got the newest issue. There's a Leap Frog game ad, and it says:

See the movie at a special advance screening! If you live in one of the cities below, join us for the double feature. Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, New York. Log on to WomansDay.com/diary to download complimentary passes.
No purchase necessary. Tickets are available on a first-come, first-served basis while supplies last. Giveaway only open to residents of Atlanta, GA, Chicago, IL, Dallas, TX, Los Angeles, CA and New York, NY metro areas. Void where prohibited. Must be 18 years of age or older to enter. Some restrictions may apply. See complete rules online at www.WomansDay.com/diary.

The Leapster game trailer is at leapfrog.com/tiana, if anyone cares. I'm not sure what the double feature is they're talking about above (obviously TP&tF will be shown).

blackcauldron85 · Post by **blackcauldron85** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:56 am

A couple interviews with Musker & Clements. I don't have time to read them right now, but I'm sure they're excellent!

http://www.awn.com/articles/people/clem ... sney-again

http://www.latinoreview.com/news/interv ... mages-8310
(via blueskydisney.blogspot.com)

blackcauldron85 · Post by **blackcauldron85** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:40 pm

I read the first article and I'm reading the other now; this is interesting, at least to me:

http://www.latinoreview.com/news/interv ... mages-8310

Clements: Sure. The history of this project is a little more complicated than some movies, but obviously this is very loosely based on the Grimm fairy tale 'The Frog Prince' which is a very short little story. Disney actually has been trying to do something with that story for years and years, going all the way back to the time of 'Beauty and the Beast' that I remember. They had versions in the works. More recently, in I think 2003, Disney bought the rights to a children's book called 'The Frog Princess' by an author named E.D. Baker and in that story, it was basically a kind of fairy tale with a twist. In that story the princess kissed the frog and instead of him turning into a prince she turned into a frog and then the two sort of went on an adventure together. It doesn't really bear a lot of resemblance to our movie except for that basic thing within that. Then Disney explored in the earlier part of this decade, I think, versions of that with some writers and some treatments.

Musker: Parallel to that Pixar had been exploring 'The Frog Princess' as a possible CG film and at first it was set in Chicago in the 1930's and then I think John Lasseter suggested New Orleans to Pixar and their development because he loves New Orleans. It's his favorite city and I think being frogs and all of that which made him go, 'Why don't you set this in New Orleans. It's a great locale and a cool place.' So they start developing the idea in New Orleans but the story didn't really get off the ground.

Clements: It wasn't really a fairy tale. It was a fairy tale but it did have some elements. It had voodoo in it and a few things. When we got involved, we were gone from Disney for a little, just for about six months, and then John Lasseter and Ed Catmull came to Disney and became in charge of Disney animation they sort of invited us back and we've known John for years and years and years.

Did you guys go to the Disney film archive to look at other films for this?

Musker: We definitely looked at 'Bambi' and 'Lady and the Tramp'. Those were the principle ones that we looked at but we certainly looked –

Clements: On another level we looked at some of the work that had been done for New Orleans Square in Disneyland.

Musker: Yeah, Dorothea Redmond has this great water colors and did a lot of studies of New Orleans square when that was built.

Clements: We also spent a lot of time in New Orleans and did a lot of research there, but just to finish in terms of the history of the project; John and Ed Catmull asked us to take a look at that and in terms of coming up with ideas that was one that we kind of focused on. We looked at all the different versions because there were multiple versions of the story. There are elements and different things that we liked and there were some things from the Pixar version and the several Disney versions. We kind of put our own stuff in there and came up with our own version which was kind of an American fairy tale with an African American Princess taking place in the 1920's during the Jazz Age as a musical. We pitched it as a musical with Randy Newman doing the music and we pitched it as a hand drawn film.

Musker: That was around March or April 2006. John really liked the pitch, and Ed Catmull. They were the people we were pitching to and so they said, 'Move forward.' But then John said, 'Before you write the script you have to go to New Orleans and soak up the atmosphere.' So then we went down to New Orleans for a week and went to the Jazz fest and took a lot of pictures and did some drawings and talked to people and took notes. It was a great trip.

And another section, about Dr. Facilier, that I found interesting (really, you should read the whole article...both of them, really, but I think the second one is more in-depth, but for those who don't have time to...)(nothing really spoilerish here unless you want to know absolutely nothing about the movie):

Did you have difficulties in fleshing out the villain in Dr. Facilier and making him different from previous movie villains?

Clements: Certainly, yes. It's always a challenge.

Musker: It was fun. Most villains are fun. In the villains that we've done, I think we've had fun with all the villains that we've done.

Clements: Certainly our villain has greed which is a strong motivation and he isn't trying to take over the world which some of our villains have tried to do. We wanted it to be a little more localized and a whole aspect of him having sort of magic at his disposal, that was fun for us. But there are limits to his magic and that gave him some challenges.

Musker: His smoothness and his sort of conman aspects and his showman, his theatricality that he can sing and dance really, really well.

Clements: One thing that I think helped a lot is that we called him The Shadow Man in earlier versions of the script and then Sue Nichols just cuing off of that, reading a treatment with that in there, she did drawings of him with other shadows, his army of shadows in there. That came from her drawings. Before we wrote the script we were like, 'Wow. That's a cool idea.' She had a thing where he did a duet with his own shadow because he was called The Shadow Man. We were like, 'Yeah. Lets work that into the script.' So then when we were writing the script we sort of incorporated that idea into it.

You see the shadow pushing the –

Clements: Yeah, and that's like his sidekick. He can confer with his shadow, that sort of thing.

Musker: I mean, there's the one shadow that is kind of his sidekick.

Which draws from 'Peter Pan'.

Clements: It does. There's a little analogy with 'Peter Pan'.

Musker: And then there are more shadows in the movie that are shadows from the other side that kind of help him along the way.

Clements: Yeah, he has an army of them.

And about paperless tablets:

What kind of workflow did Ed Catmull help come up with?

Musker: Well, Ed Catmull certainly wasn't so much of a day to day guy. He said, 'We have to do this efficiently –' and all that. I think he really embraced it. He liked the idea of doing paperless animation on this in the early going and we explored that and then it became prohibitive and some of the animators resisted that because just of the tactile quality of drawing on paper. I think they haven't given up on that idea. I think if they can improve the tablets that you draw on so that you can get more of a tactile quality, that will come again I think. But all of our FX work was done on the (sp?) Sintick. I don't know if people know what those are, the (SP?) Whack'em tablets that are pressure sensitive and you draw on them. All of our storyboards, most of the storyboards were done on that and are FX animation, they scanned the pencil drawings of the characters but all the shadows, all the rain, all the water ripples were done on Sintick's in this Harmony system and that was actually a timesaver and a very interactive thing that they could use that really helped the FX. The FX look really rich on this film and I think it was partly because they were able to use this really new technology. I think that Ed was pushing for doing as much as we could on a system like that.

Really, just read the whole article!

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:53 pm

Heh, its spelled Cintiq and Wacom. I use a Wacom and I totally get the problems of it not being tactile. although I would think a Cintiq would be easier, since those you draw directly on the screen, as opposed to on a smooth surface while looking at the screen somewhere else.

Really I think if they could just give the tablets a paper like texture it would work out better.

Havnt tried a cintq though, wish I could afford one.

Elladorine · Post by **Elladorine** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:28 pm

Digital tablets do take a bit of time to get used to drawing on, but after lots of practice a regular Wacom can feel as natural as drawing on paper even when you're drawing on a surface separate from the screen. Now granted, it's mostly a hobby to me so I could take my time with learning.

I can understand the apprehension any artist would have against wanting to use one, my early pieces on it were slow, awkward, and made me feel like I had to learn to draw all over again. The Bamboo tablets from Wacom are supposed to have more of a paper-like texture, but the pens aren't nearly as pressure-sensitive as the more expensive models.

One of my friends (who is a professional artist) has a Cintiq and he absolutely loves it; I've yet to try one myself. And I'm not exactly willing to drop a grand on one when I'm satisfied with the old model I'm currently using.

Anyway, I can certainly understand the advantages of eventually going all digital with hand-drawn animation sometime in the future.

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:41 pm

I don't think I agree that tablets can ever feel as natural as paper, not the ones out at the moment any way. Are you an animator? I think its one thing to do a single drawing with one, its another to have to get, say, a pupil of an eye to match the last fame exactly without wobbling. it can be done of course, but not as efficiently. Ive been using mine for a few years now, and Ive gotten pretty good at it, but still think we have a little ways to go in developing this technology.

Elladorine · Post by **Elladorine** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:17 pm

I'm not an animator (wish I was though) but I do have a good understanding of what it takes, including staying consistent from frame to frame and keeping the pencils from getting "wobbly." I've been using a Wacom for about two years now, the same model as you have I believe (at least the one I've seen Buzz standing on in one of your Toy Story toy photos). It probably took me about a year to become fully comfortable with not only sketching, but drawing final line art (which proved to be the most difficult part for me to get down). The part that threw me off the most was the smooth surface, but I adapted to that over time and honestly feel just as comfortable with it as a pencil and paper now.

The friend I've mentioned having the Cintiq is an animator (he used to work for Disney before the studio was closed down a few years back). He didn't adapt to the Cintiq until much more recently but he swears by it now.

The main advantage I see is being able to easily zoom in on the drawings you're working on, which allows for a lot of accuracy with the details that you may not even have on regular paper (something my friend agrees with). I also feel it allows for a lot more flexibility & control when it comes to correcting mistakes, resizing, etc.

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:36 pm

Your absolutly right when it comes to making corrections, being able to zoom in real close, etc. is a great advantage, but as you mentioned, final line work is where I think its a dissadvantage. in my experience it only looks right if you can draw lines in large quick strokes. You get a nice clean line that way, but sacifice accuracy. When you try to do it slowly, it looks like you have mild case of parkinson's or something.

Elladorine · Post by **Elladorine** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:16 pm

LOL, true. The final line art is difficult to keep steady. I'd actually equate creating the final line art or "inking" on a tablet to inking an animation cel by hand: very difficult to create long, steady, accurate lines without lots and lots of practice.

Many artists I personally know that use the computer for final line art opt to use the pen tool in photoshop to "trace" over their own (or even other people's) sketches since it gives a great, steady line; some argue it looks too mechanical though, and I don't feel it would be an appropriate tool for a traditional animator to use. To me, setting anchor points is tedious and gets in the way of actual sketching and drawing (although I admittedly rely on it at times, depending on the type of work I need to do). A traditional animator would most likely prefer doing all the line art by hand, so the ability to keep steady on a tablet is definitely an issue.

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:55 pm

Exactly, and for me the pen tool is another beast. You have to really slap it around to do what you want.

tsom · Post by **tsom** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:57 pm

Just saw a commercial!!! It was magical!

P.S. it's Rated G.

jpanimation · Post by **jpanimation** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:29 pm

Well I've only used a Wacom once and it's definitely something you need to adjust to but I think its worth it. From what I've seen though, animating on a computer is great because you can fade you pervious drawing to get an idea of where to start your new one (without all the flipping), and then play them to get instant feedback on the timing and spacing. As for inking, thats a skill I've yet to pick up, on or off a computer.

I've been thinking about picking up ToonBoom and a Wacom tablet for a while but I just don't have the money. I'll just stick with perfecting my computer animation before I invest in another animation tool. As for Cintiq, my mentors love them.

Disney's Divinity · Post by **Disney's Divinity** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:49 pm

blackcauldron85, that excerpt about Dr. Facilier has me really excited. Ever since I first heard him being referred to as The Shadow Man, I really wanted to see how they dealt with the character in the film. I've always liked when villains are given titles, and the "shadow" bit has an even more sinister undertone. I have to admit that his design somewhat turned me off when the trailers first came out (he seemed more comical than serious--that Hook side that I dislike), but that quote has given me hope that they'll turn out another classic villain--regardless of how good the rest of the film turns out to be.

So far, he and Mama Odie look to be the high points. I haven't listened to the music as of yet (want to be surprised), but, from the small bits heard in the trailers, their songs sound good, too. Especially Odie's. And "Friends On The Other Side" is a title with a lot of potential. I'll see if it lives up to it December 11th.

blackcauldron85 · Post by **blackcauldron85** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:51 am

Disney's Divinity, I'm so glad that you're excited! And I agree- The Shadow Man definitely sounds spooky and...uh...shrouded in mystery? Sort of? That's the best my mind can do at this hour.

And, more detailed info on Tiana's Showboat Jubilee!

Tiana’s Showboat Jubilee! brings New Orleans Style to the Magic Kingdom
http://thedisneyblog.com/2009/10/22/tia ... c-kingdom/

ColorsOfTheWind · Post by **ColorsOfTheWind** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:50 pm

Disney's Divinity wrote:I have to admit that his design somewhat turned me off when the trailers first came out (he seemed more comical than serious--that Hook side that I dislike), but that quote has given me hope that they'll turn out another classic villain--regardless of how good the rest of the film turns out to be.

That's initially what I thought of Dr. Facilier's design as well. He seemed too comical for my taste, but after seeing the Friends on the Other Side sequence at the D23 Expo, he doesn't seem nearly as comical as he looks. He's actually quite dark, in my opinion. I think he looks like a very promising villain

DisneyJedi · Post by **DisneyJedi** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:31 am

Part 11: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKto_XsZgd0

Part 12: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsgHn0H- ... re=channel

Part 13: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y98owsg6 ... re=channel

Part 14: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_XwHnVv ... re=channel

Part 15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsaQq6yH ... re=channel

More sneak peeks galore!

Poody · Post by **Poody** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:51 am

Thanks for the links! I can't wait to see the movie there in less than a month!!! ahhhhhh!

Margos · Post by **Margos** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:57 am

Wow! I was excited about this before, but, man! Dr. Facilier is amazing! I already know I'm going to love this song. It's so... dark and magical. Like "Poor Unfortunate Souls." It's perfect!

Old Fish Tale · Post by **Old Fish Tale** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:14 pm

I feel the same, Margos! Thanks, Disney Jedi!

Elladorine · Post by **Elladorine** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:50 pm

Wow, why does the Lawrence character look so familiar to me? Like he reminds me of an old-school Disney character, but I can't put my finger on it.

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The Princess and the Frog Discussion - Part II