Frog Princess found & renamed!

[Marky_198]

Well, Snow White and Cinderella weren't black. Otherwise, Disney would get a LOT of complaints.

Exactly, only for white people it's ok to be a chambermaid..........?!
No-one ever complained about Snowwhite and Cinderella.
I find this whole "Tiana can't be a chambermaid because she's black" attitute really arrogant and unacceptable.

[pap64]

Well, Snow White and Cinderella weren't black. Otherwise, Disney would get a LOT of complaints.

Exactly, only for white people it's ok to be a chambermaid..........?!
No-one ever complained about Snowwhite and Cinderella.
I find this whole "Tiana can't be a chambermaid because she's black" attitute really arrogant and unacceptable.

Not to sound like a jerk, but I find it funny that its widely accepted that white people can get away with being humiliated and forcing to work terrible jobs, but when you put a minority in then its being racist and inconsiderate.

Isn't this an universal evil that NO ONE deserves?

[2099net]

Well, Snow White and Cinderella weren't black. Otherwise, Disney would get a LOT of complaints.

Exactly, only for white people it's ok to be a chambermaid..........?!
No-one ever complained about Snowwhite and Cinderella.
I find this whole "Tiana can't be a chambermaid because she's black" attitute really arrogant and unacceptable.

I think its fair to say, if Snow White or Cinderella was made today, they would come in for no end of criticism, mainly for being sexist.


As for Tiana, you find it arrogant? My mind is boggled.

Firstly, I think some people would complain if a Disney film was made today with the principle female as a chambermaid, even if that person was white. See my comments above on Snow White and Cinderella. Arial was a Princess by birth but rebellious, Belle and independent thinker, Meg her own woman, Mulan brave and self-sacrificing... etc. etc.

Can you see how reverting to a Cinderella archetype may been seen as insulting no matter what the colour of the character's skin?

As for being a chambermaid, well, there's two ways the film could go.

The first is to show Tiana being bossed, abused and humiliated by guests and her boss. All would, naturally be white. (If we're using the argument that casting her as a chambermaid has historical accuracy). Not something which would be pleasant to view on screen, for people of any age. Whatever this film may be, it is not an historical document of the 1920's, nor is it a documentary on race relations.

The second is to basically ignore any historical accuracy or abuse, and have her simply doing chores while whistling and singing a-la Snow White. But, if they chose this approach, the actual job becomes meaningless. You could tell exactly the same story with her as a waitress, laundress, street sweeper or tens of other jobs.

So it seems to me that in the first instance, complaints would be 110% justified, and in the second, the actual job is insignificant and not worth bothering about one way or another (either to complain about it needing to be changed or complain about it changing)... and who knows having her as a waitress may now be critical to the story.

[Disney's Divinity]

See my comments above on Snow White and Cinderella. Arial was a Princess by birth but rebellious, Belle and independent thinker, Meg her own woman, Mulan brave and self-sacrificing... etc. etc.

The difference between all those is that the little mermaid, the beauty, Megara and Mulan were never chambermaids in their stories/legends. Cinderella and Snow White were. As for Megara, I think being enslaved by the Devil (yes, Hades is the god of the Underworld, but with the way Disney played the movie he might as well be the Devil) isn't exactly the best place to be.

Also, I agree that it is arrogant to have one set of rules for one race and not the other. I'm sorry that African Americans went through centuries of enslavement and discrimination, but that doesn't suddenly justify discrimination against Caucasians. But let's be honest, if it had all been reversed with blacks having been in power, then this movie would have been about the first white princess. Racism isn't just a white thing.

Whatever this film may be, it is not an historical document of the 1920's, nor is it a documentary on race relations.

And I guess that's a good enough excuse to ignore reality altogether? Even Pocahontas kept the race conflict, even if it were utterly simplified.

I also don't understand why people cry sexism over Cinderella and Snow White being chambermaids. They were not degraded and cruelly victimized by men, but by women (their stepmothers). It had more to do with family than it did gender.

[BelleGirl]

Whatever this film may be, it is not an historical document of the 1920's, nor is it a documentary on race relations.

And I guess that's a good enough excuse to ignore reality altogether? Even Pocahontas kept the race conflict, even if it were utterly simplified.

Can you mention another DAC with a 'race conflict'? Oh, I know: Hunchback of Notre Dame of course.
I think it's funny that you write that even Pocahontas kept the race conflict, I always thought that this one of the movie's major themes.
I'm not sure if that is the case with The Princess and the Frog.

I also don't understand why people cry sexism over Cinderella and Snow White being chambermaids. They were not degraded and cruelly victimized by men, but by women (their stepmothers). It had more to do with family than it did gender.

Yes, that's true.

[Goliath]

Well, Snow White and Cinderella weren't black. Otherwise, Disney would get a LOT of complaints.

Exactly, only for white people it's ok to be a chambermaid..........?!
No-one ever complained about Snowwhite and Cinderella.
I find this whole "Tiana can't be a chambermaid because she's black" attitute really arrogant and unacceptable.

Ugh... when will people learn their (film)history before making ignorant claims? Fact is that, throughout most of film's history, black people have been consistently portrayed as servants, subversive to white masters/patrons. Whenever a white person was cast in that role, it was an exception to the dominant modus operandi of white heroes. And for the white characters, in the end, everything would turn out fine and they would be better off than they were at the start. *That's* why nobody complained about Snow White and Cinderella and they did complain about Tiana.

If you (talking in a general sense here) can't see that, you are oblivious to film historyand the history of black people in the US, and you should refrain from making stupid posts, thinking you're soooo clever when in fact you're not.

[Goliath]

Also, I agree that it is arrogant to have one set of rules for one race and not the other. I'm sorry that African Americans went through centuries of enslavement and discrimination, but that doesn't suddenly justify discrimination against Caucasians.

There's no such thing as 'discrimination against Caucasians'. White people who bitch about discrimination are losers who have a very warped sense of the world and history. Yes, it's arrogant to have one set of rules for one race and not the other. But the fact is that, to this very day, white people have it far easier than black people, in every respect, so there's a special set of rules for *them*, to benefit *them*.

But let's be honest, if it had all been reversed with blacks having been in power, then this movie would have been about the first white princess. Racism isn't just a white thing.

That's convenient to say if you want to ignore all the white racism against people of color.

[ajmrowland]

Exactly, only for white people it's ok to be a chambermaid..........?!
No-one ever complained about Snowwhite and Cinderella.
I find this whole "Tiana can't be a chambermaid because she's black" attitute really arrogant and unacceptable.

Ugh... when will people learn their (film)history before making ignorant claims? Fact is that, throughout most of film's history, black people have been consistently portrayed as servants, subversive to white masters/patrons. Whenever a white person was cast in that role, it was an exception to the dominant modus operandi of white heroes. And for the white characters, in the end, everything would turn out fine and they would be better off than they were at the start. *That's* why nobody complained about Snow White and Cinderella and they did complain about Tiana.

If you (talking in a general sense here) can't see that, you are oblivious to film historyand the history of black people in the US, and you should refrain from making stupid posts, thinking you're soooo clever when in fact you're not.

Well, then it's a good thing I see it. Don't about Marky, though. I seriously doubt he did.

[Disney's Divinity]

There's no such thing as 'discrimination against Caucasians'. White people who bitch about discrimination are losers who have a very warped sense of the world and history. Yes, it's arrogant to have one set of rules for one race and not the other. But the fact is that, to this very day, white people have it far easier than black people, in every respect, so there's a special set of rules for *them*, to benefit *them*.

Talk about a warped view of the world. Caucasians have it easier (just as men have it easier than women), but--of course!--that makes discrimination against them much more acceptable.

That's convenient to say if you want to ignore all the white racism against people of color.

And that's a convenient way to ignore that it's human nature to hate what is different.

Ugh... when will people learn their (film)history before making ignorant claims? Fact is that, throughout most of film's history, black people have been consistently portrayed as servants, subversive to white masters/patrons. Whenever a white person was cast in that role, it was an exception to the dominant modus operandi of white heroes. And for the white characters, in the end, everything would turn out fine and they would be better off than they were at the start. *That's* why nobody complained about Snow White and Cinderella and they did complain about Tiana.

I could be wrong--forgive me (as if I honestly care)--but most black characters in subservient roles were rarely the film's central characters. And Tiana will end up "better off than [she was] at the start."

[Goliath]

Talk about a warped view of the world. Caucasians have it easier (just as men have it easier than women), but--of course!--that makes discrimination against them much more acceptable.

Like I said: there is no such thing as discrimination against Caucasians. If you think there is, you simply do not know what discrimination is, and you're victimizing yourself when in fact you're in a very priviliged position.

And that's a convenient way to ignore that it's human nature to hate what is different.

I don't know if it is human nature. I think it is being taught. Nevertheless, that doesn't rule out the fact that you use that simplistic 'truth' to overlook the reality of white discrimination and racism toward people of color.

[ajmrowland]

There's no such thing as 'discrimination against Caucasians'. White people who bitch about discrimination are losers who have a very warped sense of the world and history. Yes, it's arrogant to have one set of rules for one race and not the other. But the fact is that, to this very day, white people have it far easier than black people, in every respect, so there's a special set of rules for *them*, to benefit *them*.

Talk about a warped view of the world. Caucasians have it easier (just as men have it easier than women), but--of course!--that makes discrimination against them much more acceptable.

A warped view of the world is that which tells you discrimination isn't still happening

That's convenient to say if you want to ignore all the white racism against people of color.

And that's a convenient way to ignore that it's human nature to hate what is different.

Yep, that's the one thing that starts wars against wildlife, religions, gay people, nudists, illegal immigrants, communists, and women's rights activists. The point being is that after looking at all of these, I'd say that communists are the only ones without a good POV. Yes, even nudists have a good stance(and they seem to speak the truth, too).

[Goliath]

I could be wrong--forgive me (as if I honestly care)--but most black characters in subservient roles were rarely the film's central characters.

That's right, and that just adds to my side of the argument. The pattern in Hollywood was such, that black people were always cast in smaller roles, having to make room for the white heroes, and while in those already smaller roles, on top of that, they had to play subservient characters. That is exactly why, nowadays, there is an outrage whenever a black character is cast as a servant, because it is a throwback to a racist modus operandi from the Hollywood cinema of a couple of decades ago.

And Tiana will end up "better off than [she was] at the start."

That's NOW, today! Not 40 or 50 years ago. What about the concept of 'film history' don't you get?

[Disney's Divinity]

Like I said: there is no such thing as discrimination against Caucasians. If you think there is, you simply do not know what discrimination is, and you're victimizing yourself when in fact you're in a very priviliged position.

You seem to be strangely opting the word discrimination to mean "violence." Yes, maybe Caucasians haven't been hung and killed and beat to death, but I believe it's still discrimination when black workers are allowed more leniency on the job or are more likely to get a place at a university or keep a spot in the workplace than a white person in the same position. Fighting racism with racism isn't justified.

And that's a convenient way to ignore that it's human nature to hate what is different.

I don't know if it is human nature. I think it is being taught. [/quote]I disagree. Yes, opposition endures much longer with "education" being passed down between generations, but the initial dislike of one group of people, for vain reasons, can't be founded on any other reasoning than," They're not like me, therefore they are evil and/or inferior."

Nevertheless, that doesn't rule out the fact that you use that simplistic 'truth' to overlook the reality of white discrimination and racism toward people of color.

I don't overlook it; I'm just more the type that racism against one race isn't justification for racism against another (even if it may not be on the "same level" to you).

That's NOW, today! Not 40 or 50 years ago. What about the concept of 'film history' don't you get?

But what does what happened in "film history" have to do with a movie that's made "NOW, today!"? The fact that Tiana, like Cinderella and Snow White, would end up in a better place in the world by the end of the film proves that her being a chambermaid would not be a throwback to modus operandi. And that anyone who would think so is determined to find racism.

[Goliath]

You seem to be strangely opting the word discrimination to mean "violence."

Uhm... no. I mean 'discrimination'.

Yes, maybe Caucasians haven't been hung and killed and beat to death, but I believe it's still discrimination when black workers are allowed more leniency on the job or are more likely to get a place at a university or keep a spot in the workplace than a white person in the same position. Fighting racism with racism isn't justified.

No, what you're talking about is a very, very, very small effort (actually more: the least you could do) to right a tiny bit of all the wrongs that have been perpetrated against black people. And if you think black people are 'more likely' to get into university or a spot in the workplace, you need a reality-check and see some statistics.

I don't overlook it; I'm just more the type that racism against one race isn't justification for racism against another (even if it may not be on the "same level" to you).

Yes, you do overlook it, and you use a tired, old non-argument ("affirmative action is racism") to mask it.

[Goliath]

But what does what happened in "film history" have to do with a movie that's made "NOW, today!"?

EVERYTHING! Oh my God, if you don't understand the fact that everything that has happened in history has an impact on what's happening today, and on the way we see the world, then how do you even function in society?

The fact that Tiana, like Cinderella and Snow White, would end up in a better place in the world by the end of the film proves that her being a chambermaid would not be a throwback to modus operandi. And that anyone who would think so is determined to find racism.

No, because even casting her as a chambermaid would be a throwback to the times when black people could only be the servant. And this is even more true for Disney, since this is their *first* black main character, and having their first black character being a servant would be even MORE of a throwback.

[Disney's Divinity]

Uhm... no. I mean 'discrimination'.

Then you must be using an extreme version of the word, applied to every instance of discrimination in history.

No, what you're talking about is a very, very, very small effort (actually more: the least you could do) to right a tiny bit of all the wrongs that have been perpetrated against black people.

From who? Most ordinary people today did not enslave or discriminate against black people. The fact that you believe there's some kind of 'national debt' to be paid by the descendants of white racists to the descendants of black people who were truly discriminated against proves how idiotic your viewpoint is to me and I have no further reason or obligation to defend myself against someone so misguided.

Of course, I have no doubt you'll have the last word, in order to improve your own self-image. But I'm not wasting my time reading or responding to such a toxic poster.

[Goliath]

From who? Most ordinary people today did not enslave or discriminate against black people. The fact that you believe there's some kind of 'national debt' to be paid by the descendants of white racists to the descendants of black people who were truly discriminated against proves how idiotic your viewpoint is to me and I have no further reason or obligation to defend myself against someone so misguided.

You are the misguided one because you believe racial discrimination has somehow become extinct in the last one or two decades, and this is simply not the case. Society does discriminate against black people, and society does privilige white people. Black people overall live in worse neighborhoods, attend worse schools, get less education, get lower jobs, earn less than most white people do. And you don't seem to notice.

Of course, I have no doubt you'll have the last word, in order to improve your own self-image. But I'm not wasting my time reading or responding to such a toxic poster.

Whatever, if that justifies your posts in your own mind... so be it.

[ajmrowland]

Uhm... no. I mean 'discrimination'.

Then you must be using an extreme version of the word, applied to every instance of discrimination in history.

No, what you're talking about is a very, very, very small effort (actually more: the least you could do) to right a tiny bit of all the wrongs that have been perpetrated against black people.

From who? Most ordinary people today did not enslave or discriminate against black people. The fact that you believe there's some kind of 'national debt' to be paid by the descendants of white racists to the descendants of black people who were truly discriminated against proves how idiotic your viewpoint is to me and I have no further reason or obligation to defend myself against someone so misguided.

Of course, I have no doubt you'll have the last word, in order to improve your own self-image. But I'm not wasting my time reading or responding to such a toxic poster.

You're both right, actually. Goliath was trying to prove to you how History and events in the world today influence the media, which even further influences our viewpoints of these countries/people/ideas that are in contemporary conflicts. It's happened all throughout the history of Hollywood, and it still happens, though mostly in PG-13-R rated comedies. You see women being sexualized far more by men, because men are still dominant. You see muslims taking hits because christianity/catholicism is still the dominating religion in western cultures. And in old movies up until now, blacks were portrayed as servants. And of course, revenge is not the answer, and that is what you believe Goliath to be thinking. Chew on that for awhile!

[Goliath]

And of course, revenge is not the answer, and that is what you believe Goliath to be thinking. Chew on that for awhile!

If Disney's Divinity believes that's what I'm thinking (and I'm not saying he/she is, because I don't know), he/she would be wrong. Affirmative action and being more aware of avoiding racial sterotyping in film has got nothing to do with 'revenge'.

[ajmrowland]

And of course, revenge is not the answer, and that is what you believe Goliath to be thinking. Chew on that for awhile!

If Disney's Divinity believes that's what I'm thinking (and I'm not saying he/she is, because I don't know), he/she would be wrong. Affirmative action and being more aware of avoiding racial sterotyping in film has got nothing to do with 'revenge'.

Maybe, but I was too lazy to look for evidence. You two can get on with your argument(as if anything else will happen now), I'll just enjoy the fireworks.