Saving Mr. Banks

[Sotiris]

I like how you put patriotic and Republican in the same category as sexist and racist when discussing what makes someone not a good person.

Well, the Republican party now is notorious for their racist/sexist/homophobic stance and policies. However, in Walt's time it was much more moderate; it wasn't the far-right political party it has become.

[SWillie!]

I like how you put patriotic and Republican in the same category as sexist and racist when discussing what makes someone not a good person.

Well, the Republican party now is notorious for their racist/sexist/homophobic stance and policies. However, in Walt's time it was much more moderate; it wasn't the far-right political party it has become.

You're right, and that's exactly the point I was making. (Although to be fair, not ALL people who consider themselves Republicans today have those far-right beliefs, thankfully, even if it may seem that way in the news lately ) The fact that Walt was or was not a Republican has nothing to do with the fact that he was or was not a "good guy". Nor does his patriotism (I fail to see how that one even relates at all.)

[Super Aurora]

That's cause the republicans back in 50's and early sixties were more moderate. It wasn't until after the civil rights movement did the switch in party ideologies have switched.

Walt also wasn't religious either.

Frankenollie clearly doesn't know much about Walt Disney to begin with other than "info" being fed to him.

[Kyle]

Walt also wasn't religious either.

I dunno about that.
http://www.visionsfantastic.com/forum/t ... us-Beliefs

[Dr Frankenollie]

On the one hand, I don't want to derail this thread. On the other, SA has aggravated me. So...

Walt did use the swear words that almost any adult male frequently uses, and he may have used some of the racially prejudicial terms like “n—–“ and “to jew down” that were common before about the 1950s

The argument of this article seems to be that "Walt was racist and anti-semitic, but not very racist and anti-semitic. Besides, everyone else was too!" I wasn't suggesting Walt was a bloody Nazi, yet he was still racist and an anti-semite. Also, the argument that it was just a social norm to be a prejudiced bastard is annoying, suggesting that people can only be good and moral if everyone else is too. Plenty of people back then were against racism & anti-semitism anyway. Besides, although Walt did employ Jews and blacks, that certainly didn't stop discriminatory gags from appearing in his short subjects and films, all of which were approved by Walt. Have you heard of Sunflower the Black Centaur from Fantasia?

However, I will acquiesce that Walt wasn't particularly sexist, evidenced merely by the fact he employed Mary Blair as a designer. Upon reflection, I was wrong about that.

Now, regarding the Republican Party...I wasn't suggesting that it meant Walt was a far-right psychopath fighting for an all-Christian totalitarian regime. Please, don't make such great assumptions, especially based on such a small number of words as mine in my previous post. Due to my own political views, I think even the old "moderate" GOP of the 50s and earlier was something immoral and abhorrent. In the 1940s, the party leader Wendell Willkie opposed the welfare and social security Roosevelt had provided in the New Deal. If it wasn't for Roosevelt's economic policies, countless Americans would have starved to death, and poverty would have endured. Regardless of whether you are a socialist or a capitalist, Roosevelt's policies were necessary for a relatively quick economic recovery after the Depression. Willkie and the Republican Party at the time opposed such policies, as did Walt, who supported Willkie and later attended a rally in 1944 in favour of the Dewey-Bricker Republican ticket, alongside the likes of Gary Cooper (aka Howard Roark in the adaptation of The Fountainhead). I know it's not the general consensus, but I personally believe that being a Republican from the New Deal onwards was something truly immoral.

And as for the fact I put patriotism alongside racism et al...perhaps I shouldn't have, because patriotism is a form of racism after all. The very concept of having pride for your country's achievements is akin to having pride for your race's achievements. Just because you randomly ended up being born in America does not mean you can claim other Americans' achievements as your own. And of course, nationalistic patriotism generally means people feel supercilious towards the people of other countries, which in itself is a racist, xenophobic and detestable notion.

[qindarka]

Would you not agree, though, that people are product of their circumstances? The average man in times gone by would hold views deemed to be deplorable today, society having progressed since then. In the same vein, I am sure there would be views and practices that we advocate or take for granted today that would be condemned 100 years down the line. Would it be fair to pass damning moral judgement on us in this case? Of course, that is not to excuse all immoral actions in the past simply for having taken place in the past, how their actions were viewed relative to the standards of the time should be taken into account. The efforts of those who strove to advance morality should also be applauded though I feel it is unfair to judge all people by the standard they set.

And it really does feel harsh to deem all Republicans immoral. Political opinions can be so ingrained into one from a young age, from one's family, friends, teachers, media etc and it is not so easy to change ones views. People, by and large, do not suddenly become enlightened, they have to be provided the tools to do so from one's environment.

And I believe you are reading too much into patriotism as racism. People simply wish their own country to do well, I don't see any malice beyond that in most cases. Even then, you will have to concede that patriotism is a very understandable sentiment, regardless of your own personal views.

You do take social issues rather seriously which is commendable. Perhaps it might be a good idea to be less quick to pass judgement, though.

Apologies if this post appeared to be patronizing.

[SWillie!]

Man, you must hate A LOT of people. That must be exhausting.

[PatrickvD]

Is it December yet?

Because I think this topic could explode once we get to trailer #3.

[Dr Frankenollie]

Would it be fair to pass damning moral judgement on us in this case?

Yes, absolutely yes. Don't misunderstand: I agree with you completely on the fact that people are products of their circumstances. I'm a hard determinist. But despite the fact that they cannot help being immoral, so to speak, they are still immoral. So even if Walt may have been racist/anti-semitic and so forth because of his environment, that still means he was racist and anti-semitic. If we can't pass moral judgement on him, we can't pass moral judgement on anyone whatsoever. And although you view it as "unfair" to compare more moral contemporaries of Walt's to him and people like him, the fact that there were people back then with more progressive views is enough to make feel that the likes of Walt shouldn't be so quickly forgiven.

it really does feel harsh to deem all Republicans immoral. Political opinions can be so ingrained into one from a young age, from one's family, friends, teachers, media etc and it is not so easy to change ones views. People, by and large, do not suddenly become enlightened, they have to be provided the tools to do so from one's environment.

To reiterate: if people lack the freedom to be moral instead of immoral, that doesn't exempt them from being judged. I'm not saying immoral people should be punished (I think all criminals should be rehabilitated rather than receiving punitive sentences). After all, as you correctly state, it's one's environment that shapes one's perspectives. Personally, considering the state of many people's lives in Depression-era America, I think that people who supported the Republicans back then were immoral, because they were opposed to the social welfare and security necessary for mere survival of those in poverty. They favoured the principle of pure laissez-faire capitalism over what the situation practically, realistically required, and to refuse compromises and consideration is immoral and wicked in my view.


@SWillie!: Only the people who hate individuals are capable of loving individuals. The human being who hates no one will love no one.

[DisneyAnimation88]

He was anti-Semitic, racist, sexist, vehemently anti-Communist, patriotic, Republican, a control freak and ruthless.

I think you've been grossly misinformed about Walt Disney. While he was certainly no saint he wasn't all those things people unfairly accuse him of. Notable historians like Fred Patten, Michael Barrier, Jeff Kurtti and Jim Korkis have long debunked the myths perpetuated in pop culture that he was an anti-semite and a racist. And where did the sexist accusation come from? Was it because women were only employed at the ink and paint department? That's hardly any indication he was sexist. And since when being a patriot is a character flaw? Did you perhaps mean chauvinist? Although I fail to understand how that applies to Walt.

Spot on. Much of the nonsense that has been printed about Walt Disney is about as believable as the myth that he was cryonically frozen and is stored somewhere underneath Disneyland.

[disneyboy20022]

let's please stay on topic of the actual movie. Not what Walt was or wasn't, just talk about this movie not what Walt did wrong or right and not about these other details such as his view on politics and such

[Super Aurora]

Walt also wasn't religious either.

I dunno about that.
http://www.visionsfantastic.com/forum/t ... us-Beliefs

Several legitimate book sources including even his own daughter's words, have stated that at best he was agnostics. His parents on other hand, were extremely religious, and it turned him off.

On the one hand, I don't want to derail this thread.

Too late as you brought this up upon yourself first.

On the other, SA has aggravated me. So...

You get piss at anyone who call out on your statements. Because that statement you made was absolutely ignorant. Especially when most of it is fault.

Walt did use the swear words that almost any adult male frequently uses, and he may have used some of the racially prejudicial terms like “n—–“ and “to jew down” that were common before about the 1950s

The argument of this article seems to be that "Walt was racist and anti-semitic, but not very racist and anti-semitic. Besides, everyone else was too!" I wasn't suggesting Walt was a bloody Nazi, yet he was still racist and an anti-semite. Also, the argument that it was just a social norm to be a prejudiced bastard is annoying, suggesting that people can only be good and moral if everyone else is too. Plenty of people back then were against racism & anti-semitism anyway. Besides, although Walt did employ Jews and blacks, that certainly didn't stop discriminatory gags from appearing in his short subjects and films, all of which were approved by Walt. Have you heard of Sunflower the Black Centaur from Fantasia?

However, I will acquiesce that Walt wasn't particularly sexist, evidenced merely by the fact he employed Mary Blair as a designer. Upon reflection, I was wrong about that.

So Walt isn't a sexist because he employed a women like Mary Blair, but IS an anti-semitic and racist even though he did employ blacks and jews? What kind of logic is that?

Now, regarding the Republican Party...I wasn't suggesting that it meant Walt was a far-right psychopath fighting for an all-Christian totalitarian regime. Please, don't make such great assumptions, especially based on such a small number of words as mine in my previous post.

It's hard not too considering your usual political rants political labeling, as well as the fact that that post you made was totally inaccurate.

Due to my own political views, I think even the old "moderate" GOP of the 50s and earlier was something immoral and abhorrent.

You got to be kidding me. That's really ignorant.

let's please stay on topic of the actual movie. Not what Walt was or wasn't, just talk about this movie not what Walt did wrong or right and not about these other details such as his view on politics and such

Agree. However he brought this up upon himself, in order shove some pointless and useless political commentary in our face.

[SWillie!]

Well regardless of any political or social crap, I'm very glad to see they aren't making him out to be the unwavering shining beacon of perfection that the modern Disney company usually gets a bad wrap for making him out to be.

[Disney's Divinity]

I'm surprised so many people commented negatively on Tom Hanks the past few pages. I know he doesn't look like Walt at all, but I thought he was a good choice? As far as ratings...who pays attention to those unless a film is rated R... It's your prerogative, but I personally see very little difference between G/PG/PG-13 films.

Regarding the other explosion, I don't think anything Dr. F said about Walt was wrong or out-of-line even if I don't agree with some of it (for instance, I don't see being anti-Communist as a bad thing, although I hate how that term is thrown around so loosely these days to scare people), especially considering it was mostly a throw-away remark to begin with. Personally, I could care less about Walt Disney the man in general anyway, whatever degree racist, etc. people want to agree he was or wasn't. I'm more interested in the movie because of Emma Thompson and the Mary Poppins connection.

[Dr Frankenollie]

...considering it was mostly a throw-away remark to begin with.

Thank you.

[Disney Guru]

Goodness this thread sure has gotten large with this little rant, but back on topic. I for one am thoroughly excited to see this film upon it's Theatrical Release. The trailer looks very intriguing I think that Tom Hanks does Walt Disney fairly well of course nobody else could ever be Uncle Walt but he does a good job. Will be thoroughly enjoyable to see what they do with it. Going to be a great fall for films Saving Mr. Banks, Nicole Kidman in the new Grace Kelly bi-opic, remake of the Danny Kaye film Secret Life of Walter Mitty with the brilliant Ben Stiller. Can't wait.

[mdseverin]

[quote="Dr Frankenollie"]
Only the people who hate individuals are capable of loving individuals. The human being who hates no one will love no one.[/quote]

That is the dumbest thing I ever read. I don't hate anyone and I have a deep love for many. There is no one on Earth that I have a deep hostility toward. Hate and being mad at someone takes too much effort and brings no reward. I think the opposite of what you said is true. Hate consumes you and makes loving others harder.

[Mooky]

I thought Disney said they were done with fairy tales...

[PatrickvD]

I thought Disney said they were done with fairy tales...

[TsWade2]

I think this movie might get a nomination and win an Oscar for Best Picture. Dream on, I know. But hey, you never know.