Episode 4: A New Hope for Gay UD Threads?

[Jules]

Whoa everyone!

Firstly, I have to admit I'm kind of delighted to discover that two fellow UDers I know are gay. Soupy, remember a few years ago when Brenders, xxphlinkxx and I were curiously fighting for your affection and going like ...

UDer 1:"Soupy is mine! He's all mine! Take your hands off him!"

UDer 2:"You release him you dirty camel. Soupy was made for me!"

UDer 3:"Alas you're all foiled. Surely he will choose to be my mate, lads!"

I'll admit I may have embellished my memory of that conversation with extra adjectives, but to the point ... back then I was under the impression that you were straight and that we gay guys were cruelly teasing you. Oh well ...

And don't get me started on gay clubs.

Ah, this. Patrick, I'm the sort of person who's never touched another guy, never kissed another guy and never done anything of a sexual nature with anyone else. Unfortunately I'm not getting younger - I'm 22. Most of my friends had their first kiss (with a girl) when they were 13 -15. I'm dying for some sort of contact (all I can do is fantasise, or make do with erotic dreams ... ), yet I do not know how to make a gay friend and possibly find myself a mate simply because I cannot recognise gay people. The only place where I'm sure to find gay people is gay clubs, and I simply don't feel ready to go to a place like that ... because Malta's gay clubs can be found in Paceville (a town to which seemingly the entire country's youth flocks to every weekend). I'm not a Paceville person. I feel out of place in a disco and at a bar. I don't drink, I don't really enjoy loud techno music blaring in my head and basically never visit Paceville because I don't like it there.

So, how does one find a gay friend in "normal" places? If you avoid gay clubs in the Netherlands, then where do you locate gay men?

By the way, I have a half-Dutch second cousin who is like, smoking hot, though of course I've never told him I find him attractive ... probably because he'd be disgusted to find out ... and he's not gay anyway, which makes me wonder why I'm even mentioning him.

Hey! New discussion! Whom of you have crushes on someone in your extended family? Maybe a cousin, or an hot aunt?

And no, I don't mean to promote incest.

[PatrickvD]

And don't get me started on gay clubs.

Ah, this. Patrick, I'm the sort of person who's never touched another guy, never kissed another guy and never done anything of a sexual nature with anyone else. Unfortunately I'm not getting younger - I'm 22. Most of my friends had their first kiss (with a girl) when they were 13 -15. I'm dying for some sort of contact (all I can do is fantasise, or make do with erotic dreams ... ), yet I do not know how to make a gay friend and possibly find myself a mate simply because I cannot recognise gay people. The only place where I'm sure to find gay people is gay clubs, and I simply don't feel ready to go to a place like that ... because Malta's gay clubs can be found in Paceville (a town to which seemingly the entire country's youth flocks to every weekend). I'm not a Paceville person. I feel out of place in a disco and at a bar. I don't drink, I don't really enjoy loud techno music blaring in my head and basically never visit Paceville because I don't like it there.

So, how does one find a gay friend in "normal" places? If you avoid gay clubs in the Netherlands, then where do you locate gay men?

I totally identify with your story. Around 22 I had sort of given up on gay clubs because it just made me uncomfortable not being able to communicate and meet guys without feeling like I wasn't hot/gay/cool/new/interesting enough. Because the gay clubs made me lose my self worth instead of function as a place to meet nice guys.

So being in a crazy mood I tried online dating The idea was ridiculous to me initially, but I did end up meeting my first love/boyfriend online. I was also craving for some human interaction I SO get that, feeling like you're missing out. That part just fucking sucks (yeah bite me). He was very similar to me in not enjoying the gay scene. Ultimately we were too different so we broke up, but we're still friends.

I'm convinced there are millions of nice guys who don't like dealing with the stress and pressure of gay clubs and bars that try their luck online.

Although I should add that there are probably gay bars that do offer a relaxed and nice environment, it's just not everyones cup of tea. I don't like dance music and all that crap and that's usually all they offer.

Online dating however can be tricky. You need to be careful because of course not everyone is who they say they are. But I've met some nice people online.

Just my two cents.

[Khonnor]

So, how does one find a gay friend in "normal" places? If you avoid gay clubs in the Netherlands, then where do you locate gay men?

I myself dont like discos, but there are also just regular bars for gay people that I like to visit, with a different crowd of people, not really the glam-gays youll more than likely find out clubs.

I have met and still meet gay people everywhere. On the street, movie theatre, beach, mall, etc etc. And ofcourse, there's always online.

[Goliath]

So, how does one find a gay friend in "normal" places? If you avoid gay clubs in the Netherlands, then where do you locate gay men?

Don't ask me, I'm not gay.

One place not to look for gays in The Netherlands: the Dutch Disney forum. Lots of strict, conservative christians there. Dunno why we attract them.

[ajmrowland]

Got the same problem with girls. 20. never been kissed. only one date-actually two but never really got off the ground with her. closest contact was some cuddling on the couch while watching a movie, but nothing of a strictly sexual nature(though it was sort of tense).

Yeah, I'm really only comparing. I'm a straight guy on a gay thread.

[CampbellzSoup]

dumbass follow what I'm saying.

If that's supposed to be a dig, coming from you- it doesn't work.

I said that just because gay people "choose" you're trying to devalue my whole opinion. I know you don't "choose" what you like; you are born that way.

I said that I don't believe in or like social gay culture, how emphasis is placed on being permiscious or being girly. I myself am a gay man and I don't like to go in gay culture at all - i'm disgusted by it. I've been in a relationship for almost 2 years - so I an speak from what I know.

Look, you're all over the map here. If you have issues with other people for being gay and you're gay yourself, don't come in a thread like this to piss and moan. I don't see many people here as conflicted with being gay as you are. And if you don't think you are (conflicted), then quit judging people for liking what they like and assuming that to like something girly means a man is girly.

Grow up.

[PatrickvD]

So, how does one find a gay friend in "normal" places? If you avoid gay clubs in the Netherlands, then where do you locate gay men?

Don't ask me, I'm not gay.

One place not to look for gays in The Netherlands: the Dutch Disney forum. Lots of strict, conservative christians there. Dunno why we attract them.

So true. Not sure why they like Disney.

[Lazario]

I'm not a fan of "gay culture" meaning the men in bikinis and the feathers and drag...it just demeans and devalues people's persception of those who choose to like the same sex. Just because you are gay doesn't mean that you're a club whore, or that you're trashy, or that you're a woman...I dunno I really really don't like most gay people who I've met.

Although I'm not gay, I do agree with this. I really does give a bad stereotype perception about gays outside gay community and probably one of the stereotypes labels that lead some people to have homophobic attitude towards gays.

I don't want to say something silly like- these are the people who have allowed us to be open about our interests in anything, even what are perceived as girly. But it's kind of true. CS'z post was not a great declaration of anything and very short-sighted. The behavior he complained about doesn't continue because gay people are unoriginal- it's because the majority of the culture continues to see men being feminine as a taboo. When they get tired of their macho bullshit, we'll butch up. So why's he really complaining- because we all know this will never change. But straight people are too organized and too powerful to touch, so he's blaming gay people for this. What does he think- WE can change the fucking world? We're still a minority! All we can do, is, well I'll quote another reply:

act "normal".

And since there's always the other side of the coin... If CS'z message is: we don't need to change the world, we just need to change ourselves, then maybe he should really ask himself how anything he's indicated has stopped any of us from being ourselves? Everyone here has always been honest about their own interests. I don't feel a single person here has been pressured to like what they say they like because this image CSz has brought up forces people into a box. Why should we think ill of ourselves or people we know because he seems to be sick of anyone liking what are considered stereotypical things? NEWSFLASH: if you believe in stereotypes, everyone will fit into some stereotype no matter what you do or display an interest in. Either CSz has forgotten this or knows it well and is choosing to bring up these common interests to get others to bash them too, so that hopefully - because you all joined him - we won't believe he hates gay people. Laugh if you want, but I think Gay Republicans alone prove you can be gay and hate gays.

Anyway, I've been around the block just as long as he has and I don't see these things as that stereotypical. Perhaps it's because of how many tweenage girls go nuts over the Jonas Brothers and Justin Bieber. Why do they have to be such little girls, even though some of them are in their mid-to-late 20's? (And plenty more in their 30's or 40's.) Weird... Or because of how many black people seem to get involved in rap. What's up with that; don't they know how stereotypical that is? Maybe nobody told them how bad that is for the image of black people. Ridiculous, right? Why does every attractive young woman have to be an actress or singer? What's up with all those people from the South liking country? Why DID all those white kids start wearing their JNCO pants around their knees? Why are women still obsessed with marriage (and does it make gay people women if we still want the right to marry?), what if a black man eats chicken and watermelon (or are only these stereotypes outdated now?), do white people have their own cultural identity apart from judging everyone else for not being like them?

And why do so many repressed people love Disney?

[CampbellzSoup]

I think you are totally missing the point I'm trying to make Lazario...there is nothing wrong with expressing yourself in a creative, fun, and original way. I don't have a problem with that at all...nor do I have a problem with femine acting gay people.

I simply said I don't like the most gay culture with those who are in the "scene". I don't like how if I got to most gay outings or if something is gay central I have to be bombarded by men in thongs, and men with glitter and feathers on any kind of media gay centralized towards gays it's viewed as such. From my short experience being in the gay scene too, from what I personally know - everyone thinks that we are supposed to be promiscuous. It just bothers me.

The most recent example was at Six Flags when I was pressured to go to gay day because they thought it would be a fun idea...I felt so uncomfortable and awkward watching men with booty shorts, and acting ridiculous. I rather go on another day and hold my boyfriends hand rather than be part of that circus.

Also I dispute your argument that we are a minority...negative. We are not, we are the same people as everyone else...when things like the gay pride parade, or anything gay focused on the media gives such negative attention it makes it a minority.

[Lazario]

I think you are totally missing the point I'm trying to make Lazario...there is nothing wrong with expressing yourself in a creative, fun, and original way. I don't have a problem with that at all...nor do I have a problem with femine acting gay people.

I simply said I don't like the most gay culture with those who are in the "scene". I don't like how if I got to most gay outings or if something is gay central I have to be bombarded by men in thongs, and men with glitter and feathers on any kind of media gay centralized towards gays it's viewed as such. From my short experience being in the gay scene too, from what I personally know - everyone thinks that we are supposed to be promiscuous. It just bothers me.

The most recent example was at Six Flags when I was pressured to go to gay day because they thought it would be a fun idea...I felt so uncomfortable and awkward watching men with booty shorts, and acting ridiculous. I rather go on another day and hold my boyfriends hand rather than be part of that circus.

Also I dispute your argument that we are a minority...negative. We are not, we are the same people as everyone else...when things like the gay pride parade, or anything gay focused on the media gives such negative attention it makes it a minority.

NOW you're speaking my language! I knew there was something like a story behind your original post. (Actually, I didn't when I first replied- but after so many other UD'ers basically supported your view, I did realize that you struck something. I just needed to dig and find out what it was.)

I can't disagree with a single thing you've said there since that's your experience. But let me tell you- you're talking to someone who doesn't go out. I know what's out there but I'm not defending it nor do I crave it or mean to glamorize it. It's over the top, and I'm against almost every kind of excess (you couldn't have come across a more socio-political minded gay UD'er, I personally don't smoke, drink, do drugs, or abuse medication because I believe in living the way you want to see the community, the way I want it is clean, healthy, and trying to take care of ourselves) but what it represents is good.

Yet, at the same time, I'm just always on the look-out for people who I think don't understand. That has very little to do with you and I may have overreacted. Actually, more than anything it's previous experience on UD. For example- I will not have anyone pissing at me because I think Lady Gaga deserves her praise and recognition (ask Goliath!), or insinuating that there's something shameful about ... well, remember that your reply came on the heels of Julian's picture of the hunky boat guy in next-to-nothing, so- how was I to know you were talking about (an even more exaggerated version of), well, this kind of thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOXxzB198PU , 5:18-6:10 (just so you know, this link is from a sitcom- it's only a little bit unsafe-for-work)? Rather than any random pic of a sexy guy in next-to-nothing?

And I never meant to argue that there is none of what you're talking about in the culture out there. I would literally have to have my head buried in the ground not to notice that. Or be as sappy as I have criticized (for example) Beauty and the Beast fans for being. But I do not believe in being so unbelievably general in my argument. Your posts very much seemed to demonize gay people who had any interests considered stereotypical.

Oh, and I just meant to say that the majority of heterosexual white voters will always see gays as a minority. I agree with you that we're really not. Yet at the same time, we don't dictate the way most people see things.

[Disney's Divinity]

The most recent example was at Six Flags when I was pressured to go to gay day because they thought it would be a fun idea...I felt so uncomfortable and awkward watching men with booty shorts, and acting ridiculous. I rather go on another day and hold my boyfriends hand rather than be part of that circus.

I've always felt that way, too.

On the other hand, I remember reading an article over the past few years that pointed out that we should be somewhat grateful to the "queens" because it's those unabashed, outrageous, and "non-normal" (queer) people that have really changed things. Conforming to the dominant hetero ideas isn't going to stop heterosexism--rights are something that have to be demanded.

On a personal level though, I've always been more tame myself. I know I've already posted about my problems of always being attracted to straight guys (before I know they're straight), which is unfortunate. I always think gay people have it a little harder getting into relationships. Most of the time, you're not sure who's gay and who's not, but you're afraid to bring it up because of the reaction you might get. Plus, if you're like me and you live in the middle of nowhere (rural in the Bible Belt), you may just be the only gay person in your whole high school--that's open, anyway. While all the straight people are going to prom, having their first times, you're kind of alone. Thank god high school's over.

[CampbellzSoup]

I totally agree. However, just because I'm "gay" doesn't mean I have to act any different from how others act. I'm not taking away the fact that you can be different, fun, original or creative...I'm just diputing the fact that just because I happen to like guys doesn't mean that I have to act a certain way. NO ONE would ever be able to tell that I was gay and I plan to keep it that way - I'm the same as everyone else - I just walk to a different beat .

I'm very very much into gay rights or being treated equally, but I do believe in the notion that just because you are gay it doesn't come with theatrics or a ruse acting different then any "straight" person does...just my opinion.

[Lazario]

I totally agree. However, just because I'm "gay" doesn't mean I have to act any different from how others act.

There is no "how others act." People are all different. They only look the same.

Except on television, where they not only look- but are exactly the same. (Though we owe this to bad writing and flat acting; actors cast for looks rather than actual talent.)

I'm not taking away the fact that you can be different, fun, original or creative...I'm just diputing the fact that just because I happen to like guys doesn't mean that I have to act a certain way. NO ONE would ever be able to tell that I was gay and I plan to keep it that way - I'm the same as everyone else - I just walk to a different beat .

This is what I meant by "you're all over the map." You say one thing... and then you say another.

Now, okay- if you say that you want to be gay without theatrics, we get that. We all know the kind of person you're talking about. I used to have a problem with that too. When I was in high school (that was more than 10 years ago, the late 90's). But then... you say you want to act "how others act." That no one can tell you're gay. And that you think you walk to a different beat... Be careful. Because you don't seem to realize how close you are to saying that gay people choose to also be flamboyant. This is something I had to learn from experience. You don't have to try to "act" gay for people to be able to tell that you are. I was in French class one day and it was a normal day like any other - I hung out with my anime and sci-fi loving friends (mostly guys and all straight, far as I knew), when I got to the computer- I would look up lyrics to songs and bands I thought were normal (Beck, Smashing Pumpkins, Marilyn Manson) and horror movies - and this kid passed me a picture with my name on the back of a male model in a suit on the front and (I think) his friends were laughing.

You can't help the way you talk, the way you walk (unless you seriously practice like some kind of weirdo to walk a different way), and move your body. Though the way you put it, you act as though gay people can act gay and attract bad attention for everyone. I've learned from experience that that isn't usually true.

[Goliath]

For example- I will not have anyone pissing at me because I think Lady Gaga deserves her praise and recognition (ask Goliath!) [...]

I never 'pissed' at *you* for praising Lady Gaga... I 'pissed' at *Lady Gaga*.

[Lazario]

Goliath wrote, on Monday, January 17th, 2011:

But no matter what you say, you can not cancel out the fact that people make up their own meaning. Use any words you want, but a lot of people disagree that "same sounding" music can't be artistic.

If you know what I mean, like you say, then why do you keep interpreting/explaining my words completely the wrong way? Like I said: I'm not talking about "meaning" in the way that "everybody makes their own meaning". You know that very well, so why keep going on about that? I was simply saying experimental, ground-breaking music was mainstream in the 1960's and wouldn't be nowadays. I don't care how much you like all those blonde-haired, over-produced, under-talented, over-hyped, over-styled, playbacking girls who inhabit the top 40 charts, they're not comparable to the real artistry that was mainstream in the 1960's. And that's a fact.

You posted that about 2 months after we "discussed" Lady Gaga in the Gnomeo & Juliet thread about Elton John's collaboration.

I mean, I don't know what that says to you, but, A) it came out of nowhere, and, B) you had no right to say it. It was an insult.

[CampbellzSoup]

Lazario you said in a previous post you haven't been out.

I think me and you need to take a trip out to some gay functions/venues. You truly get an idea of just how people act when their in a social gay setting/a club scene designed purely for gay people. I've been and it truly makes me hate "the scene" which is what most gay people are associated with.

[Lazario]

Lazario you said in a previous post you haven't been out.

I think me and you need to take a trip out to some gay functions/venues. You truly get an idea of just how people act when their in a social gay setting/a club scene designed purely for gay people. I've been and it truly makes me hate "the scene" which is what most gay people are associated with.

Who are you talking to? I said I don't go out actively. That does not mean I haven't ever been out or that I have no idea what you're talking about. Trust me, I get what you're saying. But how does this matter to you exactly? What does any of this have to do with gay people outside of this club or social scene you're talking about? Either you're bashing people for being flamboyant (which you were in previous replies) or you're bashing them for having no sense of self (which seem to be doing now).

You keep bringing up associations like that means anything. I know people act differently in groups. But, what does that have to do with being gay? You do realize women, black people, everybody is labeled when they hang around in groups. Life isn't about associations or stereotypes or anything. Stop placing so much emphasis on this scene of yours.

What do you expect us to do about this anyway? What is the point? You shouldn't care, since you went on and on about how different you are than the peoploe you can't stand. Isn't that enough?

[CampbellzSoup]

Life isn't about associations or stereotypes or anything.

But in the "gay world"...it is.

Perhaps through typing my opinion isn't being properly expressed.

Gay people ARE placed on a microscope, people thing that most gay people are how they are portrayed in the media/film/the stereotype. I am trying to express that the way most people view gay people is through the gay scene culture which is often expressed through promiscuously /femine/ provocatively dressed.

Why is it when pride/gay day is expressed we have to have men flaunting themselves in bikinis/glitter...that's what the stereotype is, that’s what most people believe that gay people are.

I am just in the position to maintain the fact that I believe that not everyone gay is like that....I feel ashamed/embarrassed that people would find out I’m gay because it would place me in that category/group. I rather people know who I am then I feel comfortable telling them...the point I'm trying to make in a round about way the way we are expressed/expose through the media is through the gay scene life...and that is not something I choose to be a part of/proud of.

I'm a proud gay man I like Lady Gaga and all things associated...I celebrate gay icons, life, and culture and being an individual. I don't support what the media portrays of us/how we are identified with the men in thongs and the trashyness that gay pride focuses on.

[Lazario]

Why are things this way? We both know the answer to that and I explained it before. I didn't think I needed to but I wanted you to stop laughing and be serious, since this discussion stemmed from a concern of yours I assumed was genuine.

I told you before- most people in the world think there is a taboo about men acting like women, kissing other men, there's even still a (very slight) taboo of men being sensual and sensitive. The world still shouts things like, "every boy wanted that girl" or it's not masculine to cry (there are lot of other examples but you get my meaning) through the same exact media you're complaining only shows gay people when they're being trashy. As long as this is taboo, our community will still be like this. That's just the way things are.

What you're complaining about is the result of a circular trend that doesn't end. Not on the larger scale. Turns out, there's really nothing we can do about others. All we can do is change ourselves. Meaning- I can me and you can change you. But in the meantime, it sure helps if we not judging ourselves so harshly. I think the religious right, Republicans, and the ignorant masses do that enough as it is.

[Super Aurora]

Lazario: the UD Drama Queen.