Is Pocahontas really hated?

[Sky Syndrome]

Didn't bother me. I was too busy being caught up in the emotion of that moment to care how gory and not gory it was. It was a very important moment for that film, and I think it completely changed the story from that moment on. Now both sides had a real reason to hate each other and it caused Pocahontas to really examine her life and who she was as a person. It was very well done in my book, perfect.

Of course it's a very important moment in the film, full of emotion. I'm not into blood, guts, or gore (I can't stand horror films, for example), but showing a full-frontal shot of Kokoum falling backwards with no sign of an actual injury after the gunshot was a major distraction the very first time I watched it. I couldn't tell what happened exactly. Did the gunshot scare him? Did it barely graze him? Oh wait, never mind, he's dead . . . apparently he got shot in some vital area and the colors of the wind somehow masked it for the sake of the children.

If they were afraid to show blood (which I think is understandable) I think it was unwise to focus on his entire body falling without a wound in sight. They could have focused on just his face for example, or did the shot in a silhouette. Instead we're handed a confusing shot of a warrior falling from an invisible wound.

Or a warrior playing opossum.

[milojthatch]

Didn't bother me. I was too busy being caught up in the emotion of that moment to care how gory and not gory it was. It was a very important moment for that film, and I think it completely changed the story from that moment on. Now both sides had a real reason to hate each other and it caused Pocahontas to really examine her life and who she was as a person. It was very well done in my book, perfect.

Of course it's a very important moment in the film, full of emotion. I'm not into blood, guts, or gore (I can't stand horror films, for example), but showing a full-frontal shot of Kokoum falling backwards with no sign of an actual injury after the gunshot was a major distraction the very first time I watched it. I couldn't tell what happened exactly. Did the gunshot scare him? Did it barely graze him? Oh wait, never mind, he's dead . . . apparently he got shot in some vital area and the colors of the wind somehow masked it for the sake of the children.

If they were afraid to show blood (which I think is understandable) I think it was unwise to focus on his entire body falling without a wound in sight. They could have focused on just his face for example, or did the shot in a silhouette. Instead we're handed a confusing shot of a warrior falling from an invisible wound.

I still don't think it is that big of a deal, but fair enough, I do understand what you are saying. I just re-watched "Tangled" last night, and at the end where Flynn is stabbed, it showed a close up of his eyes during the act, and then a shot of his body crumbling to the ground with Mother Gothel holding the knife. And while I don't remember very much, there was some blood.

[ajmrowland]

a little kid loses a loved one every day, so I disagree.

Yeah, but not most children get to watch it happen (unless hospitals have different rules for under-age children these days). Plus, I doubt murder is usually involved.

The grief is still very real

[ajmrowland]

I just re-watched "Tangled" last night, and at the end where Flynn is stabbed, it showed a close up of his eyes during the act, and then a shot of his body crumbling to the ground with Mother Gothel holding the knife. And while I don't remember very much, there was some blood.

Interestingly, I dont recall seeing any blood on the knife.

[Elladorine]

I still don't think it is that big of a deal, but fair enough, I do understand what you are saying. I just re-watched "Tangled" last night, and at the end where Flynn is stabbed, it showed a close up of his eyes during the act, and then a shot of his body crumbling to the ground with Mother Gothel holding the knife. And while I don't remember very much, there was some blood.

Honestly, I don't see it as a big deal either, it's a relatively minor quibble of a film I still enjoy very much. To be fair, the way Ray's death was handled in The Princess and the Frog also bothered me in a similar manner so I must have a personal issue with such things.

[milojthatch]

I just re-watched "Tangled" last night, and at the end where Flynn is stabbed, it showed a close up of his eyes during the act, and then a shot of his body crumbling to the ground with Mother Gothel holding the knife. And while I don't remember very much, there was some blood.

Interestingly, I don't recall seeing any blood on the knife.

That is true. As I remember, any blood shown was on Flynn's wound. But I still don't remember much.

I still don't think it is that big of a deal, but fair enough, I do understand what you are saying. I just re-watched "Tangled" last night, and at the end where Flynn is stabbed, it showed a close up of his eyes during the act, and then a shot of his body crumbling to the ground with Mother Gothel holding the knife. And while I don't remember very much, there was some blood.

Honestly, I don't see it as a big deal either, it's a relatively minor quibble of a film I still enjoy very much. To be fair, the way Ray's death was handled in The Princess and the Frog also bothered me in a similar manner so I must have a personal issue with such things.

You mean the fact that Ray wasn't squished? I guess it would be hard to have the last touching moment with him if he was...

[Elladorine]

You mean the fact that Ray wasn't squished? I guess it would be hard to have the last touching moment with him if he was...

Well, sorta, lol. It didn't make sense to show his body just sort of deflated and otherwise uninjured. I think they should have had Louis wrap him up in a leaf like a blanket and leave his injuries to our imagination, that way we still could have that last touching moment. But don't mind me, I'm rather particular about these things.

[Linden]

I watched Pocahontas (pretty much for the first time) about 2 years ago. Honestly, I think it deserves the negative reviews. The movie just seemed really cheesy all around and no matter what, I could not like the characters. The animation of Pocahontas really bothers me too. She's like a hyperbole. Sure, she's pretty, but she's not real.

Things Pocahontas has going in its favour: good animation, good score, good songs (for the most part), beautiful scenery, story that could have worked.

And just for the record, I hate Andrew Jackson. He was the worst president. And I hate it every time I see him on my money.

[milojthatch]

You mean the fact that Ray wasn't squished? I guess it would be hard to have the last touching moment with him if he was...

Well, sorta, lol. It didn't make sense to show his body just sort of deflated and otherwise uninjured. I think they should have had Louis wrap him up in a leaf like a blanket and leave his injuries to our imagination, that way we still could have that last touching moment. But don't mind me, I'm rather particular about these things.

Fair enough, but lets not forget, it was a cartoon, and while the DAC don't fall into animation traps like most cartoons do, they are still cartoons. Meaning what may be in one frame will not be in another, details will be missed sometimes in some frames, and reality will be bent.

[Mooky]

I looked for an appropriate thread, but funny enough, there doesn't appear to be a general discussion topic about Pocahontas, so I guess this one will do.

Well, last week was the Labor Day weekend, and my family and I went on a sort-of-pilgrimage down to Williamsburg, Virginia. My cousin is a huge Pocahontas fan, and we used the opportunity to visit the original Jamestown settlement location and the surrounding areas, and we kept talking about the movie and singing the songs, so naturally, after coming back home, I had to give it a rewatch.

I'm usually super-hard on this movie and have issues with how it handles its characters and tonal shifts between its lighter and darker parts, but this time I enjoyed it more than I ever did in the last 15 years or so. I still dislike Mel Gibson's John Smith and think he was terribly miscast and given some of the worst, clunkiest dialogue ever heard on screen, but the rest of the movie I was quite fine with. The beginning and the ending are the movie's strongest elements, it's the middle that suffers. I really think the movie would have benefited from a longer running time, and a more developed relationship between the leads. As it is, I just don't buy this whirlwind romance because it feels unearned. Even fairytale movies with their notoriously swift romances seem more believable than the one seen here. Maybe it's due to the unhappy ending -- as a general rule, the leads in Disney movies end up together and while their initial courting period was quick, the implication is that the relationship will further develop as it goes on. Here, Pocahontas and John Smith are obviously smitten with each other from the start, and basically have a three-evening romance before he is shot and transported back to England. There really is no time to process the romance properly. If the movie was set over the course of a, say, month, and then used one of the songs as a montage to cover that period (like for example Tarzan did with "Strangers Like Me"), I believe it would have done wonders for the movie and the relationship between Pocahontas and John Smith. Pocahontas's playful nature could have been showcased more in that montage as well, before the threat of the impending conflict would make her act more serious and reserved.

Also, I'm aware of the actual history and that much of the movie's plot was fabricated (and that by all accounts the real-life John Smith was a POS), and I can accept the movie as a fairytale version of the historic events, but if you're reinterpreting it as a fantasy, then a happier ending wouldn't be THAT out of place, would it?

Anyway, after I finished the original, the sequel came up as a suggestion on Disney+, so I kind of begrudgingly pressed play, and... ended up sort of liking it? (When I told her I liked the sequel upon the rewatch, my Pocahontas-loving cousin threatened to disown me.) I've only seen it once or twice before, and that was probably twenty years ago at this point. Make no mistake, it's still quite a bad movie, BUT there are elements of a really good story, and had it been given a proper care and wasn't a quick cash grab, it really could have been something special. The worst things about it: the songs. Save but one (well two, including the end credits song), they all sound like they came from a different movie universe (Beauty and the Beast and Hunchback came to mind multiple times) and don't fit the movie AT ALL. Secondly, the designs of supporting and background characters; again, they don't fit the visuals of the original in the slightest. What else? Terrible comic relief. Needlessly comical/hysterical King James. But the rest? Not gonna lie, I enjoyed it. Pocahontas's struggle with fitting in, the whole subplot of Ratcliffe trying to make her appear uncivilized in front of the court, her coming back to her roots and being proud of her culture, and some good, compelling dialogue that normally shouldn't exist in a cheap DTV -- all good. If only the rest of the movie was as enjoyable. Oh well.

On a semi-related note, I really miss the times when Disney (and non-Disney) movies were set in real-life locations and introduced audiences to different cultures and traditions. Pocahontas, Hunchback, Anastasia, Mulan, Lilo & Stitch, The Princess and the Frog, etc., all sparked my interest in historic events behind some of these movies' plots and made me want to visit countries and regions they were set in. And I understand that places like Corona and Kumandra are inspired by real-life destinations, but it doesn't really feel the same as before.

[DisneyFan09]

Sorry for bumping this thread, but after reading your response and how nobody replied, I wanted to give it a shot.

The beginning and the ending are the movie's strongest elements, it's the middle that suffers. I really think the movie would have benefited from a longer running time, and a more developed relationship between the leads. As it is, I just don't buy this whirlwind romance because it feels unearned. Even fairytale movies with their notoriously swift romances seem more believable than the one seen here. Maybe it's due to the unhappy ending -- as a general rule, the leads in Disney movies end up together and while their initial courting period was quick, the implication is that the relationship will further develop as it goes on. Here, Pocahontas and John Smith are obviously smitten with each other from the start, and basically have a three-evening romance before he is shot and transported back to England. There really is no time to process the romance properly. If the movie was set over the course of a, say, month, and then used one of the songs as a montage to cover that period (like for example Tarzan did with "Strangers Like Me"), I believe it would have done wonders for the movie and the relationship between Pocahontas and John Smith. Pocahontas's playful nature could have been showcased more in that montage as well, before the threat of the impending conflict would make her act more serious and reserved.

Also, I'm aware of the actual history and that much of the movie's plot was fabricated (and that by all accounts the real-life John Smith was a POS), and I can accept the movie as a fairytale version of the historic events, but if you're reinterpreting it as a fantasy, then a happier ending wouldn't be THAT out of place, would it?

You know, despite how I`ve always loved Pocahontas, as an adult I`ve realized that the movie clearly suffers from those flaws that you`ve mentioned: The development between the lovebirds isn`t given enough time to truly develop as it should`ve have. Sure, it`s mostly due to how they meet up trice, but despite that, the screentime between them should`ve been more expannded. It`s ironic how Tarzan was more believable and plausible with it`s language barrier and romance development with Strangers Like Me, despite not being rooted in reality to the same degree as Pocahontas supposedly were. Yes, the Listen With Your Heart-device is contrived, but even the development of learning their different point of views is rushed. As Pocahontas teaches John Smith about her lifestyle just roughly after having met. Which makes Colors of the Wind rushed.

As for the ending, as a child I wanted Pocahontas to have a happy ending (due to the norm of the formula). And while I have nothing against that it was given an unhappy ending, the ending still suffers from being contrived from an analytical, scrutinizing point of view. It was way too quick and convienent to have John Smith being shot (despite how it actually happened). And while Pocahontas is given a final arc of chosing her own path, she`s still given the choice to actually go with Smith. So the tragedy doesn`t come across as completely hopeless as it should`ve have, which dilutes the believability of the tragedy.

Anyway, after I finished the original, the sequel came up as a suggestion on Disney+, so I kind of begrudgingly pressed play, and... ended up sort of liking it? (When I told her I liked the sequel upon the rewatch, my Pocahontas-loving cousin threatened to disown me.) I've only seen it once or twice before, and that was probably twenty years ago at this point. Make no mistake, it's still quite a bad movie, BUT there are elements of a really good story, and had it been given a proper care and wasn't a quick cash grab, it really could have been something special. The worst things about it: the songs. Save but one (well two, including the end credits song), they all sound like they came from a different movie universe (Beauty and the Beast and Hunchback came to mind multiple times) and don't fit the movie AT ALL. Secondly, the designs of supporting and background characters; again, they don't fit the visuals of the original in the slightest. What else? Terrible comic relief. Needlessly comical/hysterical King James. But the rest? Not gonna lie, I enjoyed it. Pocahontas's struggle with fitting in, the whole subplot of Ratcliffe trying to make her appear uncivilized in front of the court, her coming back to her roots and being proud of her culture, and some good, compelling dialogue that normally shouldn't exist in a cheap DTV -- all good. If only the rest of the movie was as enjoyable. Oh well.

You know, despite how the sequel clearly is a second-tier product, I still like it. Sure, it`s suffering from most of the flaws that cheapquels does and it`s nothing against the spectacle that was the original. But I still thought it was a compelling, worthy sequel. Most of all due to how there`s more action, suspense and the stakes of the conflict are even higher. Not to mention that the script is very good.

On a semi-related note, I really miss the times when Disney (and non-Disney) movies were set in real-life locations and introduced audiences to different cultures and traditions. Pocahontas, Hunchback, Anastasia, Mulan, Lilo & Stitch, The Princess and the Frog, etc., all sparked my interest in historic events behind some of these movies' plots and made me want to visit countries and regions they were set in. And I understand that places like Corona and Kumandra are inspired by real-life destinations, but it doesn't really feel the same as before.

Agreed. I miss it, too.

[Disney's Divinity]

It's going to sound like blasphemy to some, but I actually always liked the DTV sequel more than the original. I mean, the original has more artistic value and of course the music is superior and all, but it's so preachy and dire for the sake of it that it's hard to watch most of the time (and that's coming from someone who mostly agrees with the message it was attempting to sell).

[twihard]

nope never hated it and never met anyone who hated it. We watched it in history class a lot.

[MoonMarc21]

I should also put in my own two cents in this discussion and say that I think everyone outside the US doesn't hate the movie that much. In my opinion, I think everyone knows that it's very inaccurate compared to actual history but excuses it because it's not their history. That and people I know who are older than me say that they really liked the movie and felt represented through her because of the similar culture and clothes we had in my country before Raya and the Last Dragon was supposed to do that.

[carolinakid]

I should also put in my own two cents in this discussion and say that I think everyone outside the US doesn't hate the movie that much. In my opinion, I think everyone knows that it's very inaccurate compared to actual history but excuses it because it's not their history. That and people I know who are older than me say that they really liked the movie and felt represented through her because of the similar culture and clothes we had in my country before Raya and the Last Dragon was supposed to do that.

MoonMarc21,
I have nothing to say about Pocahontas except I don’t hate it and I’m an American, but I wanted to say Ma Baker by Boney M is one of my favorite songs. I have the original 12” disco version on CD as well as various ass kicking remixes. I also love Daddy Cool and Rasputin among their other hits. All these songs used to pack the dance floors at the gay clubs in Boston back in the day. Glad to see guys like you are keeping them alive!

[MoonMarc21]

Aww...thank you so much carolinakid! I heard the song once in the radio and it immediately became my top repeat songs on Spotify! Also, your last sentence made me feel special given that I'm a teenager that loves all kinds of music no matter their age. Seriously, most teens my age only know few songs in the 90s, 80s, 70s and so on so I say that's a big accomplishment for me