The Little Mermaid Discussion

[Disney's Divinity]

Where have all the Disney villains gone?
https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/5/19/2 ... -frozen-ii

[Disney Duster]

That article was right on the money.

[blackcauldron85]

How The Little Mermaid Should Have Ended
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-NSASsdYlQ

[Disney Duster]

Amy, all of that was hilarious! I love Flotsam and Jetsam's part most!

[Marce82]

The only problem with the "how it should have ended" is.... Ariel was never going to regain her voice.
The deal was she would remain human.... but the voice was payment, not "refundable" if she managed to get the kiss.

Also, Ursula specified it had to be a "kiss of true love".... not of convenience to end the deal!

Oh well

[PatchofBlue]

Also, Ursula specified it had to be a "kiss of true love".... not of convenience to end the deal!

That's actually a very valid point lol

Anyways, one of my favorite film blogs, the same one that wrote the "Raya" piece I shared a week back or so, put out a piece about The Little Mermaid in anticipation of the remake this week. Probably the most interesting bit is that they actually defend the choice to have Eric defeat Ursula instead of Ariel


Bright Young Women: The Legacy of Ariel and The Little Mermaid
https://filmsandfeelings19.blogspot.com ... l-and.html

Ariel took a huge leap of faith not only when she took Ursula’s deal, but when she saved the life of someone her society had trained her to hate. At its core, the goodness of humans is the question that Ariel and Triton are warring over, and Eric is the counterargument to the narrative that Ariel has been questioning since day one. He is the horse Ariel was betting on. Eric saving Ariel also feeds into Triton’s story, forcing him to confront the error in his thinking that humans were “spineless, harpooning, fish-eaters.” The Broadway show attempts to get some mileage out of Triton being moved by Eric like trying to save the day, and that's what opens Triton's eyes to his own prejudice, but you can feel the difference in gravity between the two actions. On one level, the climax is a test of the purity of the love between Ariel and Eric, but on an even deeper level, this confrontation is a test of whether Ariel was right to question the worldviews of her time and culture to begin with.

Eric saving the day works as a resolution because a human loving a mermaid so much that he would move heaven and earth to save her is not something Ursula in all her malice and coldness would have anticipated. It is not something Triton would have anticipated. It is not something Sebastian the crab would have anticipated. Ariel was the only one who saw humans as good. Everyone has told her "You are foolish for believing this. You are going to get yourself hurt believing this. Just sit down and play with your starfish like a good girl." The level of catharsis, then, when the subject of Ariel's love swoops and in completely skewers that argument, crashes a ship right into it, proving once and for all that Ariel was right to believe in something no one gave her permission to, is considerable. Significantly more, I'd say, than Ariel throwing a seashell on the ground.

[Disney's Divinity]

That's always been my personal way to look at the ending in the best possible light, but it's really just making lemonade out of a lemon. I have always felt that Ariel should've been the one to defeat her own villain. When it comes to the ending, it's less about Eric needing to "prove" himself, and more about Triton needing to realize that Ariel deserves to be free. You already have the latter with the deal--Triton sees how much Ariel wants to be free and how close he came to losing her entirely by exerting control on her (her privacy with the grotto, her interests and thoughts, etc.). So from there the battle royale with Ursula that follows Triton becoming a polyp has little relevance to Triton's character. Ariel defeating Ursula would show not only the strength of her desire to fulfill her dreams at all costs, but also show that she didn't intend any harm on her father or her other loved ones who would've been endangered by Ursula because of her actions, that she wasn't filled with anger at her father but simply wanted her freedom to live her life and be happy.

[Disney Duster]

In the alternate/deleted scenes on the Platinum DVD, we hear Howard Ashman himself as Triton say, "That human saved my life." Eric saving his beloved is intrinsic to this best, favorite version of The Little Mermaid for how it solidifies and legitimizes Ariel's desires and changes her father's views.

[UmbrellaFish]

In the alternate/deleted scenes on the Platinum DVD, we hear Howard Ashman himself as Triton say, "That human saved my life." Eric saving his beloved is intrinsic to this best, favorite version of The Little Mermaid for how it solidifies and legitimizes Ariel's desires and changes her father's views.

Is it though? They took that line out of the movie for a reason, right? I understand why some people feel that Eric saving the day helps Triton change his mind, but really all we see in the movie is Triton’s reaction to his daughter. “She really loves him, doesn’t she, Sebastian?” The movie is about the father-daughter relationship, Eric doesn’t have to prove anything to Triton because that isn’t the point. The point is Triton learning to support his daughter in making her own decisions.

[PatchofBlue]

I think one thing this essay does well is explain the significance of Eric proving Triton wrong in a way that centers the conversation on Ariel's story and the ideas she has been fighting for.

I'd imagine there has to be a way for Ariel to be the one to eliminate Ursula in a way that still jives with the central themes and tensions of the film. Just so, I haven't seen it pulled off in a way that feels truthful or satisfying. (I'll reserve judgment on the remake until I see it, I guess, but from what I've heard, they just do a search-and-replace with Ariel and Eric, which doesn't really impress me.)

Though, I actually have liked your proposal, Divinity, with having Ariel use the trident to defeat Ursula. I just think the idea of Ariel getting to use the trident is itself such an empowering image, and I'm almost surprised that Disney hasn't played it that way yet. (Is that right? I can't remember if she gets to use it during, like, the animated series.)

I think letting Ariel defeat Ursula is a perfectly valid creative choice, but when I hear people like Marshall and the live-action team insinuate, or say outright, that Ariel NEEDED to be the one to defeat Ursula or else she's just a damsel in distress, I don't think that's fair to the character. Neither do I think it's because they necessarily know anything I don't.

[Disney's Divinity]

The only thing that the remake does as a "fix" that really bothers me is cutting the PUS lyrics. Ursula is a liar, so nothing she said is worth editing, imo. All PUS needed was a little more focus on Ariel's desires aside from Eric in the dialogue between the two halves, the song itself was fine
I also don't think there's anything wrong with Ariel pursuing a guy (the amnesia thing just makes her more passive when she was very active) or getting married. I'm fine with the KtG change and her being aged up though, it's minor, and I don't mind that she saves herself at all, just I think the way they did it was silly.

I have seen Ariel wield the trident in some things lately (I think there was some kind of ship musical where she does?). I think she only uses it in the series in the dinosaurs episode when she frees them from ice or something. Urchin also uses it once, but they always play it as having severe consequences and they're too young to wield it safely (with great power comes great responsibility, in other words). Yeah, I would've liked it, too. Plus I like the idea of Ursula being done in by the power she wanted.

[Disney Duster]

Ok, so you guys make some good points about why Ariel saving herself and everyone else is good. But I think a character believing humans are good, falling in love with one, rescuing him, and then being rescued by him in return to prove both her love and her views of humans are valid is the more powerful, better way to go.

UmbrellaFish, with the line changing, you did remind me how Ariel was gonna defeat Ursula before Jeffrey Katzenberg changed it. So...does anyone know how Ariel was gonna do it? Was that what Howard Ashman wanted? Was that the true way this film should be, meaning I'm wrong?

[Disney's Divinity]

I think initially the ending was the one that has a storyboard as a bonus feature on home media. Ursula knocks Ariel out, then tries to strangle Eric to death, and Sebastian saves the day... Katzenberg thought there needed to be more action, and I think that decision helped the film, proving that not all his instincts are bad like haved wanted to delete POYW makes it sound.

Personally, I think the only reason Eric does kill Ursula isn't some story reason connected to that character, but to make it like old fairy tales where "the prince slays the dragon" or whatever. And perhaps they thought the scene would drive the viewers' interest during the action with Ariel being the one whose life is on the line in the whirlpool since we care about her, not Eric, which will heighten our interest. I think that's why I prefer the idea of her getting the trident somehow or something to do with reflecting the blast, because I do like her being in the whirlpool dodging the shots.

[Disney Duster]

Yeah your Ariel in whirlpool with trident idea is good. But...

Katzenberg said he didn't understand how Ariel could be able to defeat Ursula. She was going to defeat her, and he didn't think it worked.

At least, I read that or heard that. Can anyone confirm that, and if it's true, what Ariel was gonna do?

[Atlantis]

With the movie now out...we have gained a new version of Ariel. I just reminded myself of Once Upon a Times version of the character(s) and story...still so disappointed how that turned out.

[carolinakid]

There’s only one version of Ariel ....the REAL Ariel from 1989.

[Disney's Divinity]

Jodi Benson > Joanna Garcia-Swisher > Sierra Boggess > Halle Bailey > Sara Bareilles (Hollywood Bowl) > Auli'i Cravalho > Kerry Butler (TLM Broadway Demos)

Garcia-Swisher nails the personality perfectly, and Boggess / Bailey are both serviceable in the role with occasional highlights (I give Boggess the edge over Bailey for being more emotive and Broadway-sounding). Of course, Cravalho doesn't really get to act any part, just sing, so it's not really a fair comparison exactly. It's funny, I think both her and Bailey's versions of POYW (Reprise) are disappointing in similar ways--mostly the ending's key being raised (also something I don't like about Boggess' version) and the very awkward ending where the splash is supposed to go, they both looked like animatronics malfunctioning somewhat in their respective versions. IDK, they both sort of looked in pain to a degree trying to hit the movement. I could kind of understand with Cravalho where they had her on a wire from what I recall, that had to be difficult to do all that live in the moment, but a filmed version where they can have many takes having the same issue is odd?

While we're on the subject:
Pat Carroll > Queen Latifah = McCarthy > Emily Skinner (TLM Broadway Demos) > Lana Parilla > the other OUAT actress (4B) > Rebel Wilson (Hollywood Bowl) > Sherie Rene Scott
Samuel Wright > Tituss Burgess > Daveed Diggs > the Kingdom Hearts VA > Shaggy (Live!)
Kenneth Mars > Javier Bardem > the Ariel's Beginning VA > Norm Lewis > the OUAT actor
Christopher Daniel Barnes > Darren Criss (Hollywood Bowl) > Gavin Creel (TLM Broadway Demos) = Sean Palmer > Rob Paulsen > Jonah = Graham Phillips (Live!) > Drew Seeley > OUAT actor
Awkwafina > Buddy Hackett > Eddie Korbich
Rene Auberjonois > John Stamos > John Treacy Egan
Ben Wright > Art Malik > Jonathan Freeman (no knock on Freeman, all three for Grimsby have been good)

Flounder, Vanessa, and Carlotta in the original and remake are about equal to me. I like F&J in every version, too, although I hated the costumes in the Broadway show (thankfully they're not really electric in the remake, still the grey moray eels they were who simply electrocute Ariel via Ursula's magic with the deal working through them as her familiars, imo)

[carolinakid]

Thanks for reminding me, Div, of the lovely Sierra Boggess.
Unfortunately, I never saw the Broadway production, but I have the cast album and listen to her songs quite often.
She remains the definitive live action Ariel in my book.
While she’s no Pat Carroll, I definitely rate Sherie René Scott higher on the Ursula list than you do.

And thank you for compiling the live action ratings. While I refuse to see any of the live action remakes (mainly due to lack of interest and the fact that I find woke “correcting” insulting and unnecessary ), I do find the stats interesting.

[Disney's Divinity]

Yeah, I also liked Boggess, she was a perfect cast. I sort of updated my post last night with other actors that I could think of from over the years--honestly the worst person I could remember ever being Ariel was Kerry Butler. I'm so glad they didn't cast her in the musical. I would've rather had Ursula's demo actor over Scott, tbh.

[carolinakid]

I had no idea Kerry Butler recorded the demos for the Broadway songs. I saw her in Hairspray and Xanadu in New York and she was fabulous!
Gavin Creel I saw in Hair and I have him on the Hello, Dolly! revival cast album.

Thanks for the info!