Frozen II

robster16 · Post by **robster16** » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:15 am

Just watched the first episode of the "Into The Unknown" making of and it's really interesting and revealing in terms of the access they give us to all the aspects of the production. It's really indepth and worth watching. The footage of the recording session of the orchestra for "Into The Unknown" had me in tears!

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:11 am

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:54 am

Side by Side: Lost in the Woods

Disney Duster · Post by **Disney Duster** » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:19 pm

DisneyFan09 wrote:Well, sorry to nitpick, but technically this era has been called the Revival era. Otherwise, I agree with you. I don´t think that Disney´s identity has been lost. But these new movies just haven´t been great enough to measure up to Disney´s greatest features. They´ve had good components, but overall lacked the mojo that has made Disney great. The Wreck-It-Ralph films have been an exception, though, since they´ve came with a freshness that made them feel invigorating. And truth to be told, Big Hero 6 has grown on me on each viewing, despite that it feels like a movie that could´ve been from any other studio than Disney.

Wreck-It-Ralph's two films and Big Hero 6 are not very Disney to me nor very good to me...

JeanGreyForever · Post by **JeanGreyForever** » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:35 pm

Disney Duster wrote:
DisneyFan09 wrote:Well, sorry to nitpick, but technically this era has been called the Revival era. Otherwise, I agree with you. I don´t think that Disney´s identity has been lost. But these new movies just haven´t been great enough to measure up to Disney´s greatest features. They´ve had good components, but overall lacked the mojo that has made Disney great. The Wreck-It-Ralph films have been an exception, though, since they´ve came with a freshness that made them feel invigorating. And truth to be told, Big Hero 6 has grown on me on each viewing, despite that it feels like a movie that could´ve been from any other studio than Disney.
Wreck-It-Ralph's two films and Big Hero 6 are not very Disney to me nor very good to me...

The first one is Disney enough for me although I can see why others don't feel that way. The second one is anything but Disney. But frankly, I'm not one to talk because I don't even consider Tangled to be Disney enough.

Disney Duster · Post by **Disney Duster** » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:06 pm

Different strokes!

Disney's Divinity · Post by **Disney's Divinity** » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:33 pm

DisneyFan09 wrote: Well, sorry to nitpick, but technically this era has been called the Revival era.

I'm with you. Revival and Renaissance aren't the same, imo. The '90s was a Renaissance because they were doing new things and also leading the charge. This era, most of their films ape PIXAR's formulas; they haven't brought anything new to the table like the '90s films did, while they are financially successful.

I also agree the original Frozen was pretty dark. Both sisters nearly died--in pretty awful ways--in that film. And then there was the beginning of the film when horrible things just seemed to pile on top of Elsa and both sisters were suffering mentally, imo.

Farerb · Post by **Farerb** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:11 am

I started watching the series and it's interesting and baffling at once. I thought this series was going to sugar coat everything, but they don't shy away with showing the Story Trust people laying out all the problems after viewing previews or the difficulties they had with Show Yourself, probably to show how hard they had to work to improve the film, but the thing is this film wasn't a critical success and it wasn't even nominated, so why would they show us that? Their hard work didn't really accomplish anything, the film remained a mess even after their fixes and they have to be aware of that, don't they? They have to be aware at least that their film wasn't nominated, right?

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:45 am

Well, it was nominated for a Golden Globe and a BAFTA. That's something, right? The only major award Frozen 2 won was the Humanitas Prize.

JeanGreyForever · Post by **JeanGreyForever** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:40 pm

farerb wrote:I started watching the series and it's interesting and baffling at once. I thought this series was going to sugar coat everything, but they don't shy away with showing the Story Trust people laying out all the problems after viewing previews or the difficulties they had with Show Yourself, probably to show how hard they had to work to improve the film, but the thing is this film wasn't a critical success and it wasn't even nominated, so why would they show us that? Their hard work didn't really accomplish anything, the film remained a mess even after their fixes and they have to be aware of that, don't they? They have to be aware at least that their film wasn't nominated, right?

Yeah, usually films that showcase their difficulties in being made are the ones that become critical darlings and win major awards like George Lucas' Star Wars films. Frozen II promised a lot but it ended up basically coming and going and leaving no permanent effect on pop culture like the first film did.

Disney Duster · Post by **Disney Duster** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:09 pm

Well, if people think Frozen II sucked, and they made it look like they magically made a perfect film with no problems, that wouldn't work either, would it? I like that they are showing how all their problems still lead to a problematic film. And I haven't even watched this series.

Farerb · Post by **Farerb** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:42 am

To me it seems that either they might not realize that or that they think that people who loved Frozen II unconditionally will think that they did fix all the films problems and appreciate their hard work. I only saw the first episode and my take is that Peter Del Vecho is a narcissist with him saying: "I don't think there's been more pressure on any disney animated film than this one"

and Jennifer Lee is constantly overreacting to things and micromanaging.
I have a friend who watched all the episodes and he told me that Show Yourself was almost cut because no one understood that the voice was Iduna and their solution was to add Elsa saying "mother". He also told me that it seemed like there was a lot of frustration by the end of production and that it seemed like everyone wanted to be over it. I don't know how much what he said was because of his bias or because that's what actually happened, but I'm glad that this series is about Frozen II and not a different film cause it might explain a lot that we don't know about its messy production.

By the way, I don't know where the whole thing about Elsa dying permanently came from, but that was never part of the plan, which makes sense cause it's a Disney film. I think the only original ending was Arendelle destroyed and a song called See the Sky that got deleted.

JeanGreyForever · Post by **JeanGreyForever** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:43 am

Disney Duster wrote:Well, if people think Frozen II sucked, and they made it look like they magically made a perfect film with no problems, that wouldn't work either, would it? I like that they are showing how all their problems still lead to a problematic film. And I haven't even watched this series.

You have a good point there. They can justify the issues they had with the film this way and say that it still turned out better than what they were expecting at one point. Tbh, I haven't had any desire to watch this series at all.

Farerb · Post by **Farerb** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:10 am

JeanGreyForever wrote:
Disney Duster wrote:Well, if people think Frozen II sucked, and they made it look like they magically made a perfect film with no problems, that wouldn't work either, would it? I like that they are showing how all their problems still lead to a problematic film. And I haven't even watched this series.
You have a good point there. They can justify the issues they had with the film this way and say that it still turned out better than what they were expecting at one point. Tbh, I haven't had any desire to watch this series at all.

I still recommend watching it. Frustrating filmmaking is sometimes more interesting when things go according to plan. I love it.

JeanGreyForever · Post by **JeanGreyForever** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:54 am

farerb wrote:
JeanGreyForever wrote: You have a good point there. They can justify the issues they had with the film this way and say that it still turned out better than what they were expecting at one point. Tbh, I haven't had any desire to watch this series at all.
I still recommend watching it. Frustrating filmmaking is sometimes more interesting when things go according to plan. I love it.

Normally I would but considering how I haven't even bothered to rewatch Frozen II since it came out on Disney+ (besides Elsa's showstopper musical numbers), I can't see myself being in the mood to learn more about the making right now.

Sotiris · Post by **Sotiris** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:34 am

farerb wrote:By the way, I don't know where the whole thing about Elsa dying permanently came from, but that was never part of the plan, which makes sense cause it's a Disney film. I think the only original ending was Arendelle destroyed and a song called See the Sky that got deleted.

That came from insider Daniel Richtman who shared on his Patreon page that early test screenings had Elsa die and revived in the form of a snowflake (or that a presence of a snowflake was a hint she survived).

blackcauldron85 · Post by **blackcauldron85** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:12 am

farerb wrote:"I don't think there's been more pressure on any disney animated film than this one"

I'm excited to but haven't yet watched the making-of series, but I took that quote (just reading it) to mean that the Suits were putting the filmmakers under a lot of pressure. Frozen did so, so, so well that obviously they wanted another Frozen film to do a home-run, so I can understand being under that kind of pressure. And even the filmmakers themselves probably put pressure on themselves, on a creative level, with how do you top Frozen?!

estefan · Post by **estefan** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:51 am

Every animated film goes through constant story sessions to try and make it work, even the ones that turn out, depending on the viewer, underwhelming.

Even a critically panned movie like "Norm of the North" spent 6+ years in production, with a good chunk of time likely spent on developing the story. Countless script drafts are written. Many story sequences are added, changed and deleted. Thousands of storyboards are drawn. It's why I reject the idea that any movie that doesn't work is due to "lack of effort." Every animated movie is the result of a lot of effort and trying to take the story to the best possible place. Sometimes, they do. Sometimes, they don't.

Disney's Divinity · Post by **Disney's Divinity** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:59 am

Sotiris wrote: That came from insider Daniel Richtman who shared on his Patreon page that early test screenings had Elsa die and revived in the form of a snowflake (or that a presence of a snowflake was a hint she survived).

Yes, I remember that and I remember wishing that had been the ending. I mean, I understand why Disney the corporation wouldn't want to do that, so many girls idolize the character and they'd leave the theater in tears--and more importantly, it might have temporarily harmed Elsa's merchandise sales!

--but I think it would've been a phenomenal ending leading into Frozen 3. I think it would've been received a little better, too (except for that crowd determined to hate Frozen because of overexposure at this point). It would be sort of like Toy Story 3's ending, except without the quick save at the end, she would've actually died to save everyone.

I really wish it had happened, I would've loved it and cried my eyes out even knowing she'd come back. And "Show Yourself" already made me cry a little bit, it would've been even more tear-inducing in re-watch if she died at the end.

estefan wrote:Every animated film goes through constant story sessions to try and make it work, even the ones that turn out, depending on the viewer, underwhelming.

Dependent on the viewer being the critical phrase here. I enjoyed the movie and so did most of my extended family. Two things, Frozen is the first fairy tale that has received a major franchise like this, isn't it? I always worried about that, because fairy tales don't really lend themselves to sequels; Frozen 2 did as well as it could on that point, jmo. Two, I think the original having blown up so astronomically inevitably played against the sequel with critics. Still, it'll be interesting to see the audience's reaction when Frozen 3 is released (it'll show in that film's box office). Critics didn't seem to be on the same wavelength as audiences in regards to the live-action Aladdin at all...

Farerb · Post by **Farerb** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:16 am

estefan wrote:Every animated film goes through constant story sessions to try and make it work, even the ones that turn out, depending on the viewer, underwhelming.

Even a critically panned movie like "Norm of the North" spent 6+ years in production, with a good chunk of time likely spent on developing the story. Countless script drafts are written. Many story sequences are added, changed and deleted. Thousands of storyboards are drawn. It's why I reject the idea that any movie that doesn't work is due to "lack of effort." Every animated movie is the result of a lot of effort and trying to take the story to the best possible place. Sometimes, they do. Sometimes, they don't.

Yeah true I agree with this. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and I guess with Frozen II it didn't, but just for the record, I don't think the Frozen team was lazy at all, I can tell that they cared deeply about it, though it does seem that they didn't really wanted to do it. I even don't think that Jennifer Lee is lazy what with her writing a diary for Elsa, she truly understands that character. I do however think she's incompetent. There seemed to be a lot of effort put into Frozen Ii, great songs, great score, pretty design, gorgeous animation, but in the end it all goes down the toilet because of a terrible script. It's like a really beautiful cake that you can't wait to eat, but once it's in your mouth it tastes like mud.

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