The Fox and the Hound Discussion

[Mooky]

So yeah, TFatH is a nice, sweet, underrated movie. Not one of Disney's best, but still pretty good. We don't talk about the sequel/midquel though.

I've never once finished it. I know Reba McEntire's supposed to be in it.

Don't bother with it. Tonally, It's completely divorced from the original, and even if you are a fan of Ms McEntire, you'd be better off watching something else. Her character is basically a knock-off of Georgette from Oliver & Company.

[blackcauldron85]

And it's so cool to know that the looks of the films are what draws you! That is often how I am drawn to Disney films, by their looks.

It may not be much of a song, but the power of it is why it's so good

I love the characters, the story, the suspense, excitement, etc, too- they have the whole package.

Exactly- it's an extremely moving moment, one of the most heartbreaking in any movie, I think.

[DisneyFan09]

It is interesting you were so excited for the movie but when you finally got it you didn't watch it much. That's kind of a sad story in it's own right.

Really? Why is that? It's not unusual to want something as a child and not appreciating it when you finally get it. It's happened to me before. I remember that I was obsessed with the 1993 remake of Homeward Bound as a child and when I finally got it, I didn't gave it enough rewatches But that's really logical when you think about it.

[Disney Duster]

I love the characters, the story, the suspense, excitement, etc, too- they have the whole package.

Exactly- it's an extremely moving moment, one of the most heartbreaking in any movie, I think.

Yes, I figured you liked all that makes up the movies, and colors are just part of it!

That moment must be in the top five Disney sad moments.

Really? Why is that? It's not unusual to want something as a child and not appreciating it when you finally get it. It's happened to me before. I remember that I was obsessed with the 1993 remake of Homeward Bound as a child and when I finally got it, I didn't gave it enough rewatches But that's really logical when you think about it.

Well, you're right, but I guess I meant it's kind of sad you loved something and then didn't love it so much later.

[DisneyFan09]

Well, you're right, but I guess I meant it's kind of sad you loved something and then didn't love it so much later.

Well, it kinda is, but it doesn't mean that is truly as sad as it could've been. Again, I've rediscovered these films as an adult and therefore appreciating them more.

[Disney Duster]

Well, it kinda is, but it doesn't mean that is truly as sad as it could've been. Again, I've rediscovered these films as an adult and therefore appreciating them more.

Oh, then the sad stories got happy endings.

[blackcauldron85]

In the "Onward" thread, JeanGreyForever mentioned how if Tweed + Slade could end up not mortal enemies,but stinks that Tod + Copper had to. Disney Duster said that nature is the cause.

Without reading our earlier posts in this thread, I know we've touched upon this. Copper was a trained dog, trained to kill. When he was a puppy, he wasn't indoctrined into that mindset so much, so T + C could be buddies. Tod was not trained to kill- Widow Tweed brought him up in a gentle environment, being so nurturing.

To use a real world example, my coonhound Lucy was an abandoned hunting dog. Maybe when she was a puppy she could be friends with squirrels or cats (or raccoons, rabbits, or whatever she was taught to hunt). Whenever she sees a cat or squirrel, etc, she freaks out. She wouldn't care if she saw her "childhood friend"-- small creature = kill in her mind. It's a training, it's a way of life for those dogs. Copper might need to go to dog behavioral training to learn how to deal with his intense prey drive.

So with that in mind, I think the "one-way" friendship, with Tod leaning more towards friendship than Copper, could be that Tod wasn't trained to hate or kill, whereas that was Copper's schooling. Nothing against Tod personally, but chase, kill! is what Cooper knows...

[JeanGreyForever]

In the "Onward" thread, JeanGreyForever mentioned how if Tweed + Slade could end up not mortal enemies,but stinks that Tod + Copper had to. Disney Duster said that nature is the cause.

Without reading our earlier posts in this thread, I know we've touched upon this. Copper was a trained dog, trained to kill. When he was a puppy, he wasn't indoctrined into that mindset so much, so T + C could be buddies. Tod was not trained to kill- Widow Tweed brought him up in a gentle environment, being so nurturing.

To use a real world example, my coonhound Lucy was an abandoned hunting dog. Maybe when she was a puppy she could be friends with squirrels or cats (or raccoons, rabbits, or whatever she was taught to hunt). Whenever she sees a cat or squirrel, etc, she freaks out. She wouldn't care if she saw her "childhood friend"-- small creature = kill in her mind. It's a training, it's a way of life for those dogs. Copper might need to go to dog behavioral training to learn how to deal with his intense prey drive.

So with that in mind, I think the "one-way" friendship, with Tod leaning more towards friendship than Copper, could be that Tod wasn't trained to hate or kill, whereas that was Copper's schooling. Nothing against Tod personally, but chase, kill! is what Cooper knows...

That's a really insightful point there and a reminder that Tod and Copper are animals so they can't serve as a direct allegory of humans, even if in Disney films it can often appear that way. Although to be fair, even when Tod and Copper are young and before Copper goes on his hunting trip, it seems like Tod is more into Copper than the other way around.

[blackcauldron85]

^ Yeah, I agree with you that Tod is the more enthusiastic friend of the two.

[Disney Duster]

Yes, I was going to say exactly that, that Amy gave a very thoughtful and insightful explanation for why the two can't be friends. There can be many ways to look at it, but two ways you can look at it I can name are - they are real animals and must act that way, or they are personified Disney characters that can overcome nature. I guess this time, these Disney animals couldn't overcome their nature and training.

[blackcauldron85]

Um, to my knowledge (my memory is awful), The Fox and the Hound did NOT use CGI. These sites are mistaken, right? The traps don't *look* like CGI...(one site quoted below mentions the traps)...I mean, I really don't think it was the smoke or the fire effects. They must be mistaken, and The Black Cauldron was the first (yes, fine, TGMD was ) to use CGI, right?!?!

https://www.cbr.com/fox-hound-movie-dis ... via-facts/

It's Easy To Sleep Through The Dawn Of CGI, But We Saw The First Glimmer Here
It's easy to miss because it's not exactly used a lot, but this was the first Disney animated movie to feature computer-generated graphics. The technology was mostly experimental at the time, was used sparingly, and was also expensive.
It would be several years before audiences would see whole characters and landscapes created solely using computer animation. The scene where the hunter, Amos, corners Vixey and Tod in their den is partly done with CGI.
The Budget Was Big, But So Was The Gross
The Fox and the Hound was an expensive movie to make, partly because of the bits of CGI and the big-name actors involved in the voice performances. With a $12 million dollar price tag, it was one of the most expensive movies of its time.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082406/trivia

This was Disney's first animated feature to use computer graphics. Most of the CGI in this movie is shown during the scene where Amos Slade traps Tod and Vixey in the burrow.

https://aminoapps.com/c/cartoon/page/bl ... me8oVVQem6

The Fox and the Hound features the studio's earliest use of CGI, as seen in Slade's bear traps.

*edit*
https://www.cbr.com/black-cauldron-disn ... via-facts/

This was the first Disney movie to use CGI integrated with the animation. The technique had been used for a few limited scenes in The Fox and the Hound but it wasn't until The Black Cauldron that CGI was used more extensively to depict bubbles, a floating orb of light, and the cauldron itself. The Great Mouse Detective, which was completed at the same time, also included CGI but was released later.

[Disney's Divinity]

$12 million was expensive in those days. It feels like every movie they make has a $150-200 million budget now they only make 3D films.

[Sotiris]

Babes in the Woods: The 40th Anniversary of Disney’s “The Fox and the Hound”
http://www.animationscoop.com/babes-in- ... the-hound/

[Disney's Divinity]

Oh, wow. It's too bad Charo never has been in a Disney film. I always thought she was hilarious in Thumbelina. It's interesting that she ended up on a Don Bluth film after having been in an early version of this (during the making of which Don Bluth left the studio).

[Elladorine]

I saw the original theatrical release way back in the day … I would have been five years old, and it’s one of my earliest theatrical memories from Disney (along with a showing of The Jungle Book in the auditorium of our local high school, of all places). I know it left a major impression on me, likely for several reasons.

I was excited for it through the Illusion of Life special that featured some behind-the-scenes footage as more or less a promo; it’s the one hosted by Hayley Mills back when she was still planning to do Eilonwy’s voice in The Black Cauldron. Pearl Bailey sings The Best of Friends on-screen, and we get to see some of Glen Keane’s rough drawings. I may have been a little kid, but I was completely mesmerized!

I grew up in the rural Midwest; not on a farm, but I was definitely familiar with them (my dad was raised on one and my cousins had horses and such). Our house was on the edge of a large field, with woods less than a block away that just begged to be explored. We had a dog (named Lady!), and saw a lot of wild animals in the area. Foxes were a rare sighting, but we occasionally saw them out on the country roads. More often we saw deer, rabbits, raccoons, and especially squirrels close to the house.

I had a comic book adaptation in early grade school, likely printed when the film was first released, which I read so many times that I probably still remember it more clearly than the actual film itself. When the VHS was eventually released, I got the package deal from Walmart that included a Copper plushie. They were really the masters of marketing back then, lol. And wow … I must have been a senior in high school at the time?



I always loved the wistful, somber tone of the overall film; something within me believed there was something honest and realistic about that. I must have been around 10 when I taped a rerun of the Illusion of Life special, when I really fell in love with The Best of Friends. I know a lot of people dismiss the songs from this film (aside from Goodbye May Seem Forever), but I always loved how Big Momma expressed her optimism over the unlikely friendship, also while realizing that perhaps it couldn’t last due to the laws of nature.

Oddly enough, one of my favorite scenes of any Disney film is when Amos realizes where Tweed has dropped off Todd. There’s something dark and subtley foreboding just looming in the atmosphere as he muses with Copper about revenge; you can practically feel the storm brewing with the muted colors and blowing wind.

Maybe it’s strange that I feel this way, but the film really has the perfect ending; not happy, but happy enough. Sometimes friends go through horrible circumstances, they can grow apart, and they may make up to an extent later in life. In this case, they had to grow apart. But it’s okay! Todd is in the wild where he belongs, likely starting a family with Vixey, and Copper already has his own family that all care for each other in their own way, even if it’s just a curmudgeonly old Grandpa Joe (seriously, lol) and his aging hunting dog.

Of course, Tweed’s song as she sets Todd free is utterly heartbreaking, but also part of life, I suppose. Even if Amos hadn’t threatened Todd, he was wild animal that was never meant to be a pet. Perhaps my perspective on this is from the many times I caught a wild animal back when I was a kid? Often babies that we’d have to let go, including young rabbits cornered by Lady, and birds hopping around the yard, not quite ready to fly. One of the few things I remember about my paternal grandmother was that she told me stories about a baby squirrel she adopted when she was a little girl; as he got older, he’d spend less time in the house and more time in the nearby woods. Eventually, he disappeared back into the wild where he belonged. She was heartbroken, but also knew it was the best thing to happen. My aunt (one of her daughters) told me similar stories about Corky, another squirrel she adopted herself under similar circumstances. And one of my dad’s favorite Disney films was Perri, and I can’t tell you how ecstatic I was that it was included on Disney+ from the very beginning.

Ha! I didn’t meant to write a whole essay here. This film is so near and dear to my heart, reminding me of several facets of my childhood, including many aspects I haven’t even touched on here. Something I’ve come to realize is that we need to enjoy the moment, because life changes in a heartbeat … and while change is often painful, it’s often necessary and is simply a part of life to change paths. And I love that the concept is explored in this film.

[blackcauldron85]

I love what you wrote, Elladorine!!! I love that your family members adopted squirrels!! (jealous!) I like that you said that the ending is "happy enough". The bittersweetness of the film has always been a draw for me. It could have ended a lot worse, with Tod + Copper truly hating each other or one or both of them dead, so yes, happy enough! And you make a great point, that they had their families.

[Disney Duster]

Wow, what a great post Elladorine. I'm glad the movie (and The Illusion of Life!) touched you in such amazing ways.

I will never think the film should have had Copper and Tod stay apart. In real life some people's pet dogs have become friends with unlikely other pet animals and I'm sure they could befriend a fox. The movie saying they can't be friends is really bull.

[blackcauldron85]

This is interesting:

The Fox and the Hound: The Bizarre Story of How Disney's "Adaptation" Changed Animation Forever
https://youtu.be/le8xAUsa6yw