American Democracy in serious danger

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Lazario

Post by Lazario »

Disney's Divinity wrote:
The_Iceflash wrote:Besides, regardless of what one thinks of religion, it has become an overused scapegoat for what is wrong in politics, life, etc. Pointing fingers and playing the blame game solves nothing. DOING solves
It's not really a scapegoat when it actually does play a large force in politics and voting.

Also, what exactly have you been DOING lately? This whole thread is nothing but the "blame game." It's not like forumers can alter the political climate or the economy. Unless they're out shopping, at which point they wouldn't be posting here anyway.
There are differing belief systems involving economics so yes they do have much to do with the economy.
Yeah, but economic strategies aren't called "belief systems," are they? Besides, how could people normally have the same "moral standards" on the economy? Individuals don't normally limit taxes on the rich for money to trickle down or extend benefits to the poor on a daily basis.
I completely agree with Divinity.

Further, Iceflash- I agree that we should all be trying to do something. But... what exactly can we do? Thanks to the harping on social issues by politicians (which I think they do on purpose to turn us against each other), and the common apathy we have in general, Americans really don't care about each other. We care about ourselves and the people who we think are like us. Except for the devotion to family, I don't think Americans have enough goodwill together to spearhead any serious change.

I would also very much like to see us talk about why that is. In the meantime, I will agree that this kind of thing is going around in circles and gets us nowhere. If anything, it serves to take out a little aggression. It's a workout of our verbal skills. Besides, we're sort of left to feed on each other - it's all we get - because the friggin' politicians we should be saying these things to force up a wall between themselves and us. They're glorified businessmen and listening to the people is the last thing on their agendas.

Goliath wrote::cry: I'm very sorry for your parents. (I would add another political rant here, but that probably would be inappropriate. I wouldn't want to politicize their situation.) I wish them all the best.
Actually, to be honest, their financial problems are only the tip of the iceberg of their screwed up lives. But, I appreciate the gesture.
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Post by AwallaceUNC »

I would like to ask all participants in this thread to dial down the profanity. The excessive expletives in this thread create a tone that is not welcome at this forum. Several forum members in particular have been fairly reckless in this regard. Going forward, offending members will be contacted by forum moderators or administrators.
dvdjunkie wrote:And everybody thinks this idiot who doesn't even live in the United States of America knows what he is talking about.
Lazario wrote:If only it were still the Thanksgiving season. Then I could just laugh you off, point at you and say- "isn't Drunk-Grandpa cuuuute?"
Both of these comments are unacceptable personal attacks. If you would like to continue participating in this thread or others, you will need to refrain from all such personal attacks in all of your future posts (in this thread and others). You both have received warnings on multiple previous occasions.

<hr>
Whether this thread continues to stay open will depend on the ability of its participants to engage one another with civility. The current tenor of this thread will not be allowed to go on.
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Post by Goliath »

Lazario wrote:Further, Iceflash- I agree that we should all be trying to do something. But... what exactly can we do? Thanks to the harping on social issues by politicians (which I think they do on purpose to turn us against each other), and the common apathy we have in general, Americans really don't care about each other. We care about ourselves and the people who we think are like us. Except for the devotion to family, I don't think Americans have enough goodwill together to spearhead any serious change. [...]
I think you're right when you say that politicians from both parties try to divide the people amongst each other. Often they use so-called 'wedge issues', like gay marriage or abortion, to get the people to the polls to vote for them, or they will play the race card. Sadly, a lot of the time, it works. Imagine what could happen if all those divided people decided to work together...

I think people have more power than they often realize. If you just look at history, you can see how much common people have accomplished together, defying established powers and existing morals. Look at the women suffrage movement, the civil rights movement. Change can be accomplished by the people, if they push for it hard enough and work together. In this age of internet and social media, that should even be much easier. Imagine that all those millions of people who made small contributions to the Obama campaign in '08 (because they thought he would accomplish real change), put all that money and all that time they spend going door to door, into a viable third party candidate. The Democratic and Republican Parties haven't been around forever, so who says they should be the only two options for eternity?

When you look at most Latin-American countries over the past decade (ignoring the propaganda from the corporate media), you'll see many examples of massive political shifts in favor of the common people. Look at a country like Paraguay. Until 2008, the country had been ruled by one single party for 60 years! (That's including a 30+ years military dictatorship under Alfredo Stroessner.) 'Elections' were always marked by bloody violence, intimidation and fraud, and that's how the ruling party stayed in power. But in 2008, the common people decided to stick together and support their candidate, someone out of politics. They resisted all intimidation and elected Fernando Lugo, a former bishop, nicknamed "the bishop of the poor".

Of course, they were heavily inspired by their neighbouring countries. In 2006, Bolivia elected its first-ever Indigenous president, Evo Morales, a former coca grower. Even though the Indigenous people make up the largest segment of the population, not one of them had ever served as president. They were ruled by white presidents from the political establishment. Now a former union leader is leading them. In Brazil, the same. Their president, Lula da Silva, comes from a family that grew up in devastating poverty. He was arrested several times in the 1970's and tortured because he opposed the military dictatorship in his country. Now, he's president and overseeing a country that has seen its economy grown with 8% a year for a decade, despite a world-wide economic crisis, and literally millions of people have been lifted from poverty.

The same happened in Argentine. Their president, the late Nestór Kirchner, became president in 2001, when the country was facing an economic crisis as big as the Great Depression in the US in the 1930's. The country was on the break of bankrupcy, riots were going on in the streets. When he left office, the economy was growing every consecutive year; unemployment went down from over 20% to under 10%; people living in poverty went down from over 42% to about 16%; and he also found time to lift amnesty for former members of the military dictatorship and get their asses hauled in front of a judge. Oh, and he fought succesfully for gay rights as well. This great hero died this year.

What all of them have got in common (together with Rafael Correa in Ecuador, Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua, Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and former president Michelle Bachelet in Chile), is that they are/were politicians 'of the people'. They could only succeed, let alone even get elected, because the common people decided to band together and defy the political establishment. Even though the establishment did everything it did to prevent this from happening --and they still do. Their country's media are ranting and raving against these presidents 24 hours a day. They are being smeared and blackened in American and European media all the time. They have think tanks and so-called 'ngo's' working for them all over the world, to discredit these president. But the people decided to ignore the propaganda, defy the intimidation, stick together, and elect these presidents.

When one of them, Hugo Chavez, was deposed by a fraction in the military, aided by the corporate media in 2002, the common people rallied in the streets with hundreds of thousands in the capital alone --must've been millions all over the country. They demanded their president be re-instated. And they succeeded. It was the pressure of the people that made a fraction of the military decide to re-instate Chavez --embarrassing the Bush administration, which had already recognized the coup government.

That's the power of the people. If you wait for the politicians to act, it will never happen. Why would the establishment want to change anything about their comforting positions? The days of the Roosevelts and Kennedy's are over. Now it's up to the people. Campaign finance reform; the establishment of a third party; and breaking up the media monopolies will not happen unless the people make them happen. Once there was a Boston Tea Party. Now that historical event is being hijacked by a tiny group which is secretly funded and organized by big corporations to attack a perceived-'liberal' president. It's time to reclaim the term 'Tea Party' for the regular people.
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Post by Goliath »

We were talking about the 'Bush tax breaks' before, in this thread. I would like to ask you all to take 10 minutes out of your day to watch this video. Especially dvdjunkie. It's not only about the Bush tax breaks, but also about the Estate Tax that Republicans want to eliminate, and about Senator Sanders' 8 hour speech on the subject --and why the mainstream media haven't reported on it.

Please watch this and let me know what you think. Even if you watch it only for me (and I know I might not be the most popular member on this forum), please do. You'll thank yourself afterwards.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/O8Abz ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/O8Abz ... 1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>
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Post by Flanger-Hanger »

Anyone who watches that video and still supports the tax cuts and eliminations mentioned would need to do some serious explaining to get me to change my mind on agreeing with Ms. Maddow and Senator Sanders.
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Post by Goliath »

Study Confirms That Fox News Makes You Stupid

Yet another study has been released that proves that watching Fox News is detrimental to your intelligence. World Public Opinion, a project managed by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, conducted a survey of American voters that shows that Fox News viewers are significantly more misinformed than consumers of news from other sources. What’s more, the study shows that greater exposure to Fox News increases misinformation.

So the more you watch, the less you know. Or to be precise, the more you think you know that is actually false. This study corroborates a previous PIPA study that focused on the Iraq war with similar results. And there was an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll that demonstrated the break with reality on the part of Fox viewers with regard to health care. The body of evidence that Fox News is nothing but a propaganda machine dedicated to lies is growing by the day.

In eight of the nine questions below, Fox News placed first in the percentage of those who were misinformed (they placed second in the question on TARP). That’s a pretty high batting average for journalistic fraud. Here is a list of what Fox News viewers believe that just aint so:

* 91% believe that the stimulus legislation lost jobs.
* 72% believe that the health reform law will increase the deficit.
* 72% believe that the economy is getting worse.
* 60% believe that climate change is not occurring.
* 49% believe that income taxes have gone up.
* 63% believe that the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts.
* 56% believe that Obama initiated the GM/Chrysler bailout.
* 38% believe that most Republicans opposed TARP.
* 63% believe that Obama was not born in the US (or that it is unclear).

The conclusion is inescapable. Fox News is deliberately misinforming their viewers and they are doing it for a reason. Every issue above is one in which the Republican Party had a vested interest. They benefited from the ignorance that Fox News helped to proliferate. The results were apparent in the election last month as voters based their decisions on demonstrably false information fed to them by Fox News.

By the way, the rest of the media was not blameless. CNN and the broadcast network news operations fared only slightly better in many cases. Even MSNBC, which had the best record of accurately informing viewers, has a ways to go before they can brag about it.

More: http://readersupportednews.org/off-site ... you-stupid
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Post by disneyboy20022 »

Hey this should make some people happy (a lot I hope)

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/12/22/ ... tml?hpt=T2
Washington (CNN) -- The Senate on Wednesday passed a compromise version of a bill to provide free medical treatment to first responders of the September 11 terrorist attack.
The bill passed on a voice vote on what is expected to be the final day of the lame-duck session of Congress. It now goes to the House, which also is expected to approve it and send it to President Barack Obama to be signed into law.
Negotiations Wednesday morning involving Republican Sens. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma and Mike Enzi of Wyoming and Democratic Sens. Charles Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand, both of New York, led to the deal that reduced the cost of the bill by $2 billion and made other changes sought by GOP opponents, according to statements by the participants.
"The Christmas Miracle we've been looking for has arrived," said the statement issued by Schumer and Gillibrand, adding: "We are pleased to announce that we crafted an agreement that will allow this legislation to pass the Senate, and the House, this afternoon. We thank our Republican friends for coming together to fulfill America's moral obligation to the heroes of 9/11."
Coburn, a conservative who led the opposition to the bill, said the agreement produced a better piece of legislation.
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Post by Duckburger »

Finally! Though it's ridiculous that it took so long to pass a bill like this.
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Post by Goliath »

I'm not entirely pleased by the "compromise". This is what has got me worried:
The agreement also caps attorneys' fees at 10 percent of any total compensation award, and includes potential limits on compensation for individuals who already have received workers compensation for injuries due to the 9/11 response, the Coburn statement said.
This is Newspeak for: "some people who need help will still be fucked out of compensation". And why is that? Because:
According to the bill's supporters, it is funded by a procurement fee on some foreign countries that trade with the United States, the continuation of a fee on some travelers to the United States and a fee on visas for some companies. The version being negotiated by the senators Wednesday drops some of those funding sources.
Yes, the bill was going to get paid for by closing tax loopholes for big foreign multinational corporations. But Republicans didn't want that to happen. (Even after the owners of said corporations already got their millions worth of dollars tax cuts extended.) Coburn has defended his opposition to closing tax loopholes for foreign business as follows:
"Every American recognizes the heroism of the 9/11 first responders, but it is not compassionate to help one group while robbing future generations of opportunity," said Coburn, who had demanded that the cost of the bill be lowered and fully paid for. "I'm pleased this agreement strikes a fair balance and improves the bill the majority attempted to rush through at the last minute."
Lying hypocritical bastards.

The bill still has to be paid for. Now that this way of funding has been dropped, another way has to be found. Did I mention Congress is looking at cutting Social Security?

Merry Christmas, America!
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Post by Disney's Divinity »

Yeah, I was waiting for someone to expound on the "compromise" they made. Because you know that means--"we'll give anything as long as it doesn't affect us."
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Post by Lazario »

Disney's Divinity wrote:Yeah, I was waiting for someone to expound on the "compromise" they made. Because you know that means--"we'll give anything as long as it doesn't affect us."
VERY true - and that's their idea of socialism: if they have to share with us. However, the rest of us can share with each other and that's totally fine with them. That's not socialism at all!
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Post by ajmrowland »

This is usually the part where Goliath comes in an posts yet another video.

i bet it'll be the montage on last nights Jon Stewart.
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Post by dvdjunkie »

I can tell so easily that nobody here listens to the radio very much.

There are some really good people out there, Neal Boortz, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and everybody's favorite Rush Limbaugh. You might not like what they are saying, but they do know more about what is going on in Washington than any two or three of the posters here on UD put together.

All little TRUTH at this time of the year doesn't hurt anyone!!
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Post by disneyboy20022 »

dvdjunkie wrote:I can tell so easily that nobody here listens to the radio very much.

There are some really good people out there, Neal Boortz, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and everybody's favorite Rush Limbaugh. You might not like what they are saying, but they do know more about what is going on in Washington than any two or three of the posters here on UD put together.

All little TRUTH at this time of the year doesn't hurt anyone!!

......Rush Limbaugh....a Favorite...if you mean oh boy I want his autograph and would love to meet him and be his apprentice because he's so smart i have this to say..

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Post by Lazario »

dvdjunkie wrote:I can tell so easily that nobody here listens to the radio very much.

There are some really good people out there, Neal Boortz, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and everybody's favorite Rush Limbaugh. You might not like what they are saying, but they do know more about what is going on in Washington than any two or three of the posters here on UD put together.

All little TRUTH at this time of the year doesn't hurt anyone!!
Man, you really have to stop this trolling. I know you're just goofing around- you told me you were not a conservative years ago. You're just saying these things to get a cheap rise out of someone else. Just like I did to you, years ago, when I praised liberals in my signatures.

Sean Hannity is a know-nothing twit, Rush Limbaugh is a fat old pig with a serious drug problem, and O'Reilly is a loud, hypocritical pinhead. Truth has nothing to do with these guys' careers and you know it.
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Post by dvdjunkie »

At least I got a rise out of you. That's what I was looking for. Thanks for that Lazario, and nothing on my end has changed. And yes, I was just writing something to see if anyone really knows what they are talking about around here besides you and Goliath.
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Post by Goliath »

dvdjunkie wrote:I can tell so easily that nobody here listens to the radio very much.

There are some really good people out there, Neal Boortz, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and everybody's favorite Rush Limbaugh. You might not like what they are saying, but they do know more about what is going on in Washington than any two or three of the posters here on UD put together.

All little TRUTH at this time of the year doesn't hurt anyone!!
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Post by ajmrowland »

*AHEM*
dvdjunkie wrote:At least I got a rise out of you. That's what I was looking for. Thanks for that Lazario, and nothing on my end has changed. And yes, I was just writing something to see if anyone really knows what they are talking about around here besides you and Goliath.
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