The Lion King Discussion

[Rudy Matt]

The Lion King isn't a bad movie because it rips off Bambi, but conversely, what prevents it from being a great movie is that it rips off Bambi and looks shallow in comparison.

[Siren]

This is the most hilarious, overly critical review of TLK EVER! Warning, there are a lot of cursing, but its such funny cursing!
http://www.confusedmatthew.com/The-Lion-King.php

He makes some good points. Young Simba is a little Draco Malfoy, save for the fact he's not a bigot, but he's still full of himself. Though I think I'd liken young Simba more to Kuzko than Draco.

Yet he cares enough about it to make a 45 minute video review telling everyone what he hates about it...

Hmm.

How does the length of the review have anything to do with it? There are a lot of points he hates about it. So it took some time. And I still love the movie, but in nearly every point, he is right. Even when I saw it when I was 16, I realized the same thing he did about the whole, "its your fault he's dead". I always found that to be utterly confusing. I assumed when he got older he's realize it wasn't his fault. I didn't think he would blame Scar then, because stampede happen in the wild, its pretty much a natural disaster as far as I am concerned. But he still blamed himself, he returns and no one questions Scar about what happened. Nala doesn't even question it. Nor does his mother.
He is also right, Timon and Pumbaa's relationship with Simba is based on a selfish desire to want a bodyguard.

Also, I can totally understand needing to take that long to say why you hate a movie...you are talking about a huge blockbuster loved by millions with a constantly growing fan base. If he did a 5 minute review saying he hates it, its not enough time to explain why. And as a fan of Lion King, I liked to hear why, in depth, someone could hate it. And now that I have, I understand the haters. They are right in many respects. But I still love the movie.

[ajmrowland]

But remembert, he thinks he caused teh stampede by roaring too loud.

[Sky Syndrome]

Mufasa may have told Simba about fight-or-flight response and that's how Simba links his echoing roar to the stampede arriving immediately afterwards.

[Siren]

That still doesn't explain why the lionesses were so stupid. Other than the fact the writers would have to face a major plot point. The whole Scar telling the pride they BOTH died and there is Simba. No one questions him if Mufasa is alive too, why he said Simba died when he obviously didn't, etc. And then Sarabi questions Simba about if its his fault Mufasa is dead...in all truth...what parent would do that? What person would do that? Simba was like the equivalent of a 10 year old kid when Mufasa died. How he could be held respondsible for his father's death by his own mother is kinda disturbing.

[Disney Duster]

Wow, I actually get to come up with good reasons to defend a movie I don't care much for for everyone. Keep in mind, I have not seen the film in a long time, but, well, here I go!

Simba starts out as a selfish, unresponsible, annoying kid who just wants to be a special king. Hm. We know kids tend to be selfish, and those little girls wanting to be special princesses. And aren't they supposed to learn responsibility later? Wait, Simba does learn that later. Oh. That's covered then. What, Confused Mathew's excuse is that Simba was just a little too selfish and annoying? What, Simba has to be like him and other average kids? He admitted Simba was like a kid drill sargents would yell at. Yea, so? Simba changes.

The scene with Simba bonding with his dad does indeed show a good side of him. Oh, and when Simba cries for his dad, that's showing care for somebody else.

Like ajmrowland and SkySyndrome said, Simba thought that his roar made the stampede happen. If it wasn't that, that his father tried to save him was a reason for him to feel responsible for killing his dad. It does not matter a lick of Simba was on that rock because he was told to be, or that he didn't intend to kill his dad. He still feels responsible.
"If I wasn't there, he'd still be alive", and that is all he needs.

Admittedly, he seems to think it's a little too much of his fault, and he could explain to the others it was only his fault because his dad tried to save him, but he still feels responsible.

Now, Timon and Pumbaa. Look, being lazy and selfish does not make you a bad person. It is just undesirable and not "the best you can be." Not being resonsible for your action is a bad thing, but Simba could not do anything to save his dad, and didn't some people think he would suck as king anyway?

Simba does not really grow into a much better person with Timon and Pumbaa, but he's not an ashole to anyone now, and he thoughtfully talks about his theory on the stars and what happens to us when we die. This came from his father, and it is also his father who helps him to become a better person by telling him to take responsibility, be king, and help people.

Nala doesn't have much use actually, but Mathew's complaints on their love, well...what about the way Ariel and Eric or all the Disney Princesses before Belle and the Beast fell in love? Rather quickly, without knowing each other very well. And this guy said most other Disney films before this were flawless. However, admittedly, in all those previous films I mentioned, they are fairy tales, and the idea of true love at first sight and possibly knowing everything you need to know about a person from that sight could be in there. "There she is, the girl of his dreams" "I know you I walked with you once upon a dream"...

However, Nala and Simba have known each other since they were children. They were great friends would had fun together. Now they're older. That's really all you need for the love. Admittedly, it's weird that they still love each other after being away for so long, and then after their love scene kind of "breaking up", but they are animals after all...Okay, I must admit, the way their love was handled is just a bit...well...odd and kinda bad and could have been better, but hey, almost any Disney love can, if this one is just more bothersome.

Rafiki. Well, he has been in the film already, not just in one scene, and he has actually interacted with the characters, just not with words. So? But even if his main scene of real interaction and doing anything is brief, um, what would Mathew saw of the Fairy Godmother in Cinderella? Admittedly, the Fairy Godmother almost serves as both magical monkey and Mufassa's ghost as well...

Speaking of, Mufassa's ghost cannot come whenever he wants! He depended completely on Simba's willingness to see and listen to him! To let him out of himself, so to speak. Whether he be all in Simba's imagination or a real ghost, or something conjured by Rafiki, or a real ghost conjured by Rafiki, or whatever.

Mufassa tells Simba to remember who he is - which is his son, and King, someone who has responsibility. Simba actually learns this and grows up to be responsible and rule and help his people.

Timon and Pumbaa showing up at Pride Rock shows that they, too, have changed and grown as characters! They go with Simba to show that they love him as a real friend, not just because he's a bodyguard! Also, they do things to try and help the fighting, funny hoola and all, so they deserve to be on Pride Rock in the final shot.

Oh, and Simba can be responsible for Mufassa's death and there still be a stampede, if the stampede was caused by a stamped or Mufassa was trying to save him from the stampede. But the reason no one questions anything is because, well first of all, everything's kind of happening so fast they don't know what to think or do, they're kind of in shock, and no one could have thought Scar could have assumed Simba was dead but been mistaken? But seriously Scar and Simba almost start fighting immediately there's not much room for interjection from a third part, though a "Scar, you lied?" would have been good, yes. But as for believing Simba could have caused his father's death, yes, that is believable since the little guy could have accidentally gotten the stampede on his dad, in many accidental ways.

I will admit, this "responsible for my father's death thing" is still rather weak, and so, all the love and "it's so great" praise heaped on something that has such a weakness is something I will admit seems unearned. But the whole entire film isn't that weak or undeserving of love and praise.

So at the end of the film, Timon and Pumbaa and Simba change and learn responsibility and caring for and helping others, very deserving.

"I Can't Wait to be King" can certainly be a loved song about a character who is saying things that aren't the best. What, we don't love villain songs? But even then, I do not think Simba was going to be an evil ruler, and Timon and Pumbaa's philosophy may not have been the most desirable thing in our society but I love Timon and Pumbaa for their desire to relax and make themselves happy without hurting others in any way. So "Hakuna Mattata" is fine, too.

Face it, and I have to, too, people love this film as it is. I may not think it's deserving of such a huge freaking amount and not as good as so many other Disney films, but I don't think it's awful or not deserving of love. I am mad that it feels like a total guy's film, even though I am a guy. You see, even in all the princess films, the female protagonists made friends with females and males, and their female and male friends, fairies, and princes helped the story and did more for their story than, like, any of the females do for the story in The Lion King. It seemed more equal. At least Nala tried to do something for Simba, she gets points for trying, it's true. And I guess she was friends with Simba when they were young, did she do much then?

[Elladorine]

Like ajmrowland and SkySyndrome said, Simba thought that his roar made the stampede happen. If it wasn't that, that his father tried to save him was a reason for him to feel responsible for killing his dad. It does not matter a lick of Simba was on that rock because he was told to be, or that he didn't intend to kill his dad. He still feels responsible.
"If I wasn't there, he'd still be alive", and that is all he needs.

Admittedly, he seems to think it's a little too much of his fault, and he could explain to the others it was only his fault because his dad tried to save him, but he still feels responsible.

I agree with you there. It wasn't only Scar saying "Simba, what have you done," but adding the rather direct, "if it weren't for you he'd still be alive" . . . and then the clincher: "what will your mother think?"

Isn't there also something called survivor's guilt? His father died a noble death in saving him, and how had Simba acted all his young life? He took his father for granted throughout most of it, being selfish, risking lives by disobeying him, etc. And after Mufasa paid the ultimate price to save him, perhaps he felt that *he* should have been the one that died. Even through situations where a loved one's death is not directly connected in RL, those left behind often feel that pang of "survivor's guilt."

[Siren]

Like ajmrowland and SkySyndrome said, Simba thought that his roar made the stampede happen. If it wasn't that, that his father tried to save him was a reason for him to feel responsible for killing his dad. It does not matter a lick of Simba was on that rock because he was told to be, or that he didn't intend to kill his dad. He still feels responsible.
"If I wasn't there, he'd still be alive", and that is all he needs.

Admittedly, he seems to think it's a little too much of his fault, and he could explain to the others it was only his fault because his dad tried to save him, but he still feels responsible.

I agree with you there. It wasn't only Scar saying "Simba, what have you done," but adding the rather direct, "if it weren't for you he'd still be alive" . . . and then the clincher: "what will your mother think?"

Isn't there also something called survivor's guilt? His father died a noble death in saving him, and how had Simba acted all his young life? He took his father for granted throughout most of it, being selfish, risking lives by disobeying him, etc. And after Mufasa paid the ultimate price to save him, perhaps he felt that *he* should have been the one that died. Even through situations where a loved one's death is not directly connected in RL, those left behind often feel that pang of "survivor's guilt."

I agree with all that and much of what DD said in the previous post. But what always irked me and only now came to light against because of the review I posted...why did no one question Scar when Simba showed up? Why did Sarabi practically accuse her son of killing his father? I can get Simba's guilt, but Sarabi seemed a lot smarter than that. I think her whole questioning of Simba was both out of character and out of place. She can't possibly believe her son, then a cub, could have been respondsible for killing his father.

[Disney Duster]

Well, like I said, Simba thought he did it accidentally. So any adult could think that a little kid did it accidentally, too. She asked if it was true, but that was it, I don't remember if she condemned him any more than that or did anything worse after that...

Actually, even if she said "It doesn't matter, it was an accident" later, as her, I would want to know who killed my husband, I would want my child to be honest, or I would want to know how my husband really died.

Basically, it just should've been done better. She should have asked it nicer, like "aw sweety it's okay" or said it didn't matter since it was an accident and it wasn't really his fault.

Often in films, things that people would usually do but are kind of talky and rather small and don't do that much, despite what we would naturally do, get excised. That has always bothered me, I think...

[Siren]

I just found the question highly unrealistic. Its pretty obvious, whatever Scar told them, he lied. Simba was still alive. And whenever its pointed out Simba is still alive, the answer is the same "it doesn't matter, you're alive/i'm home". Sarabi is all "You're alive, how can that be?" and 5 minutes later, she is asking a very accusatory demand, "Its not true, tell me its not true"...instead of repeating her original question of what happened. How could he have been respondsible for his death. In the musical, we see the lionesses grieve over Mufasa's body. Apparently they just figured Simba was trampled into oblivion and there is no body?

No one questions anyone about what really happened. And when given the chance, they are like "who cares" or don't bother at all. And then when Scar says he killed Mufasa...oh, sudden epiphany. Maybe if they asked Simba when he first showed up what happened, Confused Matt got it wrong...this is how it should have went.

Sarab: "What happened, Simba?"
Simba: "Scar brought me down to the gorge to meet Dad. Scar said it was a surprise from Dad."
Nala: "Scar, what is he talking about?"
Scar: "I haven't the foggiest idea."
Simba: "And then I roared and a stampede happened."
Sarabi: "We roar all the time, the herd doesn't stampede. And why would they run towards the very thing roaring?"
Zazu: "And then Scar came and got Mufasa and me. When we got there, Scar didn't help at all. And I said I was going to help and I got knocked out somehow. The only other person there was Scar."
Scar: "You must have had amnesia. A wildebeest scaled the cliff side, kicked you in the head and then left."
Nala: "What were you doing the whole time during this Scar?"
Scar: "Watching Mufasa try and save Simba."
Sarabi: "And you never once tried to help them? And the day Mufasa died, he wasn't planning on something with Simba in the gorge. Why did you take him down there? Unless...." *bitchslap...fight ensues...lionesses finally realize they were lied to*

[JDCB1986]

Yet he cares enough about it to make a 45 minute video review telling everyone what he hates about it...

Hmm.

How does the length of the review have anything to do with it?

Because if he hates it so much, there really isn't a point in wasting any time at all on it. Yet he spent time not only recording what he hates about it, but more than likely taking notes on what he hates about it in order to remember every detail, which would require viewing the film (unless he has a stunning memory.)

So... he watched it (if he hates it so much, why does he have a copy available for viewing ?), took notes on what he hated, recorded 45 minutes worth of audio telling everyone why he hates it and then put that audio to screen caps of the film. That is an AWFUL lot of time and effort to spend on something you "hate" so much.

And I'm confused at why any person would be so hateful towards anything that they feel the need to go on a 45 minute rant about how horrible it is, or why anybody would waste 45 minutes of their life listening to something so filled with negativity.

And whether or not it's supposed to be comedic... it's not funny, just sad.

[Disney's Divinity]

I don't find it that hard to grasp that the lionesses would either be too shocked to think straight when Simba appeared or that they accepted Scar's account of what happened after so many years of believing it. Scar could've easily said Simba died in the thorns or that he ran away (and surely died without food/water). Thus, Simba's return after so many years of staying away comes across as possibly a sign of guilt. To this point in the story, I think most everyone disliked Scar, but they had no reason to believe he would have lied about Mufasa's death. Sure, the guy's not nice, but he really wouldn't have killed his brother? And Scar acts quick before the lionesses can think hard on the facts, so Simba'll be dead before they realize.

As for Sarabi, I don't think she was being accusatory or holding Simba responsible, I think she just didn't want to believe her life had been ruined by something Simba had caused by accident. She wanted to hear it from Simba's mouth.

And, yes, there is definitely a hole there for "Why didn't the lionesses do what they wanted instead of following Scar?" The Pride Land is clearly very patriarchal, and in those societies women rarely think of rebelling (it's their duty to serve, they would say). Of course, that's probably just rationalizing a problem in the story, considering I doubt Disney would have intended to show women in that light. But Sarabi and the others are such small characters in the story, that the writers might've overlooked their presence. Or maybe they noticed the hole too far along to change it and thought, "Crap--let's try to pretend that couldn't happen so noone else will notice!"

[BelleGirl]

And, yes, there is definitely a hole there for "Why didn't the lionesses do what they wanted instead of following Scar?" The Pride Land is clearly very patriarchal, and in those societies women rarely think of rebelling (it's their duty to serve, they would say). Of course, that's probably just rationalizing a problem in the story, considering I doubt Disney would have intended to show women in that light. But Sarabi and the others are such small characters in the story, that the writers might've overlooked their presence. Or maybe they noticed the hole too far along to change it and thought, "Crap--let's try to pretend that couldn't happen so noone else will notice!"

Fact is, the lion's world is a very patriarchal society. The female do almost all the work hunting, but the male is still the boss and gets his "lion's share" of the prey. I think this is the problem with humanized animals: should you portray them more animal-like, with the traits of the animal-society, or should they be more 'human' and reflect modern human society as 'we' would like to see it, in which power and leadership is more equally divided between males and females? Personally I prefer the former. Disney should not try to force a 'feminist message' out of a world most people know is male-dominated and will never change in this respect. Or else they sould completely let go of the concept of lions in their natural surroundings and dress it up as a fable like Reynard the Fox.

Hope this makes some sense..

[BelleGirl]

He he, I've now listened to the rest of confused Matthew's review and I can't understand how I took the illogicalities in the story so for granted.

Just had to laugh a bit about Matthew's comment on the last part and final confrontation with Scar.

[Super Aurora]

The video was funny but Matthew tries WAY too hard picking this movie apart. He was basically over exaggerating almost about everything. He brought up some true inconsistency and illogic but again, Just about all disney films have some form of that.

He whined about Simba being a brat when a kid. Now you tell me: If you were son(especially as a kid) of a king and soon will become ruler of the kingdom, wouldn't you behave very similar like Simba did as acting all high and mighty because of your title?

As for the "I kill my father guilt." This is not uncommon in real life. People have taken a blame of something that really wasn't their fault and believe they done it just because other people pointed fingers at them for doing so. It's called being a scapegoat.

The whole point of the movie is that He can hide and run away from his past for ever and that he must confront them. It took him a while to realize this but it eventually came.

I can understand if people don't prefer this movie as their favorite or such or even dislike it. But to hate it such a passion like that Matthew guy and Escapy, i'll never understand. They making Lion King out to be so horrible that it's in the same category of shit films as like Batman and Robin or something.

[er121876]

The Lion King isn't a bad movie because it rips off Bambi, but conversely, what prevents it from being a great movie is that it rips off Bambi and looks shallow in comparison.

You can't really rip off your own film - they just kind of expanded on the Bambi storyline and made it a bit more fun and a bit more exciting (I haven't seen Bambi in years and don't remember much of it but I never saw it as a particularly action-based film). Although, IMO, The Lion King shares more similarities in terms of the storyline with Hamlet than with Bambi. Anyone agree?

[Escapay]

I can understand if people don't prefer this movie as their favorite or such or even dislike it. But to hate it such a passion like that Matthew guy and Escapy, i'll never understand. They making Lion King out to be so horrible that it's in the same category of shit films as like Batman and Robin or something.

At least Batman and Robin has Alicia Silverstone.

And I don't hate it with the passion that Confused Matthew does. On occasion I will speak positively of certain aspects of the film, but for me, the reason I dislike it so much is because there are no characters worth watching, rooting for, or identifying with, the story is unoriginal and trite, the music is bombastic and overdone, and overall it just feels like a picture all dressed up with nowhere it really wants to go. It's like 1982's Inchon. It strives to be a grand sweeping epic with beautiful landscapes (TLK - Africa, Inchon - South Korea), a heavy story (TLK - Bambi/Hamlet in Africa, Inchon - the Battle of Incheon), allegedly-complex characters that are worth watching (TLK - Simba, Scar, etc., Inchon - General MacArthur), and music by a renowned composer (TLK - Hans Zimmer, Inchon - Jerry Goldsmith) but in the end it's just a lot of style and very little substance.

albert

[yamiiguy]

Just watched it for the first time in years and I still love it, easily my favourite Disney Animated Classic and easily in my top 5 favourite animated films. It's probably the best Shakespeare adaptation I've ever seen as well. I'd also say it has the greatest movie soundtrack of all time. Only rivalled by the likes of Fantasia, which don't really count. I've just seen some HD footage on my TV from the Waking Sleeping Beauty trailer and it's magnificent.

[yamiiguy]

The Lion King is in 720p (HD) on youtube with an ABC logo in the bottom right, can anyone tell me if the Lion King has ever been shown in HD on ABC?

[The_Iceflash]

See, I think the Lion King is a film with a lot of substance with great animation and music to back it up. The characters are ones you can identify with. Simba not wanting to take responsibilty and basically blocking his past as a coping mechanism is something that's very relatable to many people.

I can understand if people don't prefer this movie as their favorite or such or even dislike it. But to hate it such a passion like that Matthew guy and Escapy, i'll never understand. They making Lion King out to be so horrible that it's in the same category of shit films as like Batman and Robin or something.

It's simple, it's easily one of Disney's most popular and beloved films. Some choose to dislike it to not conform to popular opinion and to seperate themselves from other Disney fans by having a more unique and original opinion.