Treasures Wave 7 Content questions

[UncleEd]

I have some Treasure content questions that I felt were deserving of their own thread rather than in the thread on the release.

1.) Does the Oswald shorts content meet expectations to all that are known to exist or have some come to light since/were ignored?

2.) Does anyone know if the Donald Mickey Mouse Club clips featured as Easter eggs on the Donald set exist in color prints or just the black and white? I was just wondering why they would be in black and white here if color exists and we know that at least one version of the opening title exists in color.

3.) What Disneyland episodes on Disneyland are left unreleased? I can't think of many if any, excluding the Osmonds one since that was after Walt's death but I'd still have welcomed it here.

4.) How many episodes of Peoples and Places are there?

[UncleEd]

the new review answered my question 4 but are all 16 episodes 40 minutes long? That would be like releasing the 4 True Life Adventure volumes, wouldn't it?

[Lars Vermundsberget]

It's my understanding that they came up with more Oswald shorts for this release than were previously "known to exist".

[Escapay]

I can't answer the first two, but I can the last two...

3.) What Disneyland episodes on Disneyland are left unreleased? I can't think of many if any, excluding the Osmonds one since that was after Walt's death but I'd still have welcomed it here.

The first half of "A Progress Report/Nature's Half Acre" (aired February 9, 1955) features a tour of the still-in-construction Disneyland, with stuff like time-lapse construction footage, model sets, and a drive-thru of Jungle Cruise (before they added the water).

Also, there's the 1968 episode "From Pirates of the Caribbean to the World of Tomorrow", a sizable portion of which is on the Curse of the Black Pearl DVD. I'm not sure what the rest of the episode is about (I can't seem to find an episode summary anywhere), though I assume it's about the redesigning of Tomorrowland?

I too would love to see "Disneyland Showtime" surface on DVD. My sole copy of the episode is an old VHS, and the end credits are cut off and goes to Zenon, Girl of the 21st Century, of all things.

4.) How many episodes of Peoples and Places are there?

The review says 16, but Mr. Toad listed 18 in a really long post, which is one of several, that list every animated and live-action short, be it theatrical, non-theatrical, educational, etc.

1953 The Alaskan Eskimo People and Places
1954 Siam People and Places
1955 Arizona Sheepdog People and Places
1955 Switzerland People and Places
1955 Men Against the Arctic People and Places
1956 Sardinia People and Places
1956 Disnelyland USA People and Places
1956 Samoa People and Places
1957 Blue Men of Morocco People and Places
1957 Lapland People and Places
1957 Portugal People and Places
1958 Wales People and Places
1958 Scotalnd People and Places
1958 Ama Girls People and Places
1958 Seven Cities of Antartica People and Places
1959 Cruise of the Eagle People and Places
1960 Japan People and Places
1960 The Danube People and Places

Scaps

[Bill W]

Other anthology series episodes potentially about Disneyland the park include:
7/13/55 Pre-Opening Report from Disneyland and A Tribute to Mickey Mouse
2/29/56 A Trip Thru Adventureland and Water Birds
4/03/57 Disneyland, The Park and Pecos Bill
4/09/58 An Adventure in The Magic Kingdom
5/28/61 Disneyland '61 and Olympic Elk
12/23/62 Holiday Time at Disneyland
3/22/70 Disneyland Showtime
Not sure what these include.

[Bill W]

Also, don't forget the Arizona Sheepdog People & Places short can be seen on the Old Yeller DVD as part of the 11/20/57 "The Best Doggoned Dog in the World" episode (in black and white, of course).

[MK Sharp]

It's my understanding that they came up with more Oswald shorts for this release than were previously "known to exist".

Indeed. There were previously 11 Oswalds known to survive, which has been upped to 13 with the inclusion here of Ozzie Of The Mounted and Tall Timber.

The rumours that Ride 'Em Plowboy, Hot Dog and/or Africa After Dark might exist were discredited by the great and good Ramapith here.

[UncleEd]

Why were these rumored to exist and how was that information proven false?

It could be argued that no Oswalds truly exist since we only have edited versions from the 1930's. I'm glad to see them at all but it's sad to know that scenes were edited out back then and are now lost.

By the way, since these weren't storyboarded how do the historians know what was cut and how the original versions played, etc.?

[Tony]

Other anthology series episodes potentially about Disneyland the park include:
7/13/55 Pre-Opening Report from Disneyland and A Tribute to Mickey Mouse
2/29/56 A Trip Thru Adventureland and Water Birds
4/03/57 Disneyland, The Park and Pecos Bill
4/09/58 An Adventure in The Magic Kingdom
5/28/61 Disneyland '61 and Olympic Elk
12/23/62 Holiday Time at Disneyland
3/22/70 Disneyland Showtime
Not sure what these include.

I really hope these all turn up on one final treasure about Disneyland!

[ramapith]

Why were these rumored to exist and how was that information proven false?

A Spanish archive had a titleless Oswald cartoon about traveling in Africa. They misidentified it as AFRICA BEFORE DARK, and no questions were asked until we actually got a look at it, at which point it was found to really be Lantz's JUNGLE JUMBLE (1932).
Before that time, though, the archive had announced its "find" to other researchers, so rumors got into circulation.
The rumor of HOT DOG and RIDE 'EM PLOWBOY was accidentally spread several years ago by a researcher who'd discovered some video transfers in an Italian archive and simply misremembered which they were, not knowing which titles were rare and which weren't.

It could be argued that no Oswalds truly exist since we only have edited versions from the 1930's.

Of the 13 Oswalds on the set, six—the 1927 titles—are edited 1930s versions. The others are just about uncut, though OZZIE OF THE MOUNTED is missing a subtitle and the end of its last scene (doesn't affect the story at all).

By the way, since these weren't storyboarded how do the historians know what was cut and how the original versions played, etc.?

Actually, the studio drafts still survive on many Oswalds; fixed sheets of story sketches, too. So while there weren't storyboards in the modern sense, we can chart close to half the Oswalds scene by scene.

[MK Sharp]

Why were these rumored to exist and how was that information proven false?

Read the link, Ed...

It could be argued that no Oswalds truly exist since we only have edited versions from the 1930's. I'm glad to see them at all but it's sad to know that scenes were edited out back then and are now lost.

Well, you'd say that they exist in an incomplete version. It's not like they are non-existant. You can still get a good idea of the contents and the style of the films.
Unfortunately it's a problem that affects many silent films. Quite a few of the Buster Keaton shorts have been recovered from edited or incomplete prints, or pieced together from two or more fragmentary shorts. If you buy the DVD of Buster Keaton's The Cook And Other Treasures, it includes the reconstructed version plus both of the fragmentary source prints. It's an excellent education in the kinds of hard decisions that need to be made when dealing with material like this.

By the way, since these weren't storyboarded how do the historians know what was cut and how the original versions played, etc.?

They weren't storyboarded in the modern sense, but look at the story drawings reproduced in Walt In Wonderland. You'll see that there's drawings for various scenes, sometimes with footages included; and they also used quite detailed written scripts detailing the action. It would soon be obvious if there was something major missing.

EDIT: Ah, Ramapith got in before me while I was distracted by doing some work!

[UncleEd]

No worries you both offered information the other one didn't and vice versa.

Why couldn't they recreate the missing subtitle on Ozzie of the Mounted or was it over a scene that was cut? From the commentaries it makes it sound like all of the surviving Oswalds come from 1930's recut prints.

I wondered how they could have reshot the animation from the archives of that one lost Sagebrushg Sadie without Ub's X sheet. So I assume those exist too? I don't know much about how things were done in the early, early days. I'm more familiar with the animation techniques adopted from the 1930's on. (Note for our UK friends who may not have this title yet, they reshot 2 sequences using scenes in the studio archive.)

So do any of the lost Oswalds exist in fragments or could be recreated like this? I suppose Disney would deem it too expensive to reshoot anything more than what we got but I'd say it would be a good job for a responsible Cal Arts intern or dedicated film buff. You have to admire how in Walt's day you just did what you had to and got the job done while today you have to jump through hoops to do anything. A sad reflection of our modern times.

Does anyone think they'll reintroduce Oswald into the core group of characters or will he just be like Clarabell Cow and Horace Horsecollar or Clara Cluck? (Anyone know how or why those characters have become so obscure? I've never seen an official reason ever given.)

I enjoy silent films but it is hard to find a definitive version of any because they were recut and reissued so many times. I don't have the Buster Keaton set but it's been on my list for some time. If I ever win the lottery I'm going on a huge DVD shopping spree bonanza.

Was anyone surprised by the quality of the Ub Iwerks film? As soon as the blue Disney logo comes up with all the artifacts (not on the VHS mind you) I was stunned. How could a film age that fast and why wasn't it digitally backed up? You can't tell me that they couldn't find a better quality version of at least the logo anywhere in the studio. It really does seem like Disney has it out for Ub and this film.

Now, in the review for the Disneyland set it is mentioned that the new documentary was recut to feature current information and new interviews. My question is how much different is the "old" version? And what were the other 2 titles it was originally going to be released with? I think one was a Mickey Mouse Club one (Not the Treasure) but I forget the other.

[chadhobbick]

The Disneyland dvd, before it became a treasure, was supposed to come out w/the old Mickey Mouse Club and the Britney, Christina, Justin MMC set.

[ramapith]

Why couldn't they recreate the missing subtitle on Ozzie of the Mounted or was it over a scene that was cut?

The subtitle footage actually exists in an alternate source print, but has very serious disintegration damage. Nevertheless, not sure why it wasn't included.

I wondered how they could have reshot the animation from the archives of that one lost Sagebrush Sadie without Ub's X sheet. So I assume those exist too?

Not on SAGEBRUSH SADIE, to my knowledge. But the drawings were still easy to shoot because they were numbered sequentially, with comments penciled on to note when some should overlap others.
That said, I don't think anyone had any way of knowing which order the scenes were supposed to play in. They don't appear to run in any special order on screen (it's my guess that the first scene shown may have originally been the closing shot).

So do any of the lost Oswalds exist in fragments or could be recreated like this?

Large numbers of drawings do survive from scenes in the lost HAREM SCAREM (essentially a dry run for elements of the later GALLOPIN' GAUCHO and MICKEY IN ARABIA), but enough are still missing from the sequences that any attempt to reconstruct them still comes out looking jerky. I'm not sure, but I imagine that's why they weren't included here.

Does anyone think they'll reintroduce Oswald into the core group of characters or will he just be like Clarabelle Cow and Horace Horsecollar or Clara Cluck? (Anyone know how or why those characters have become so obscure? I've never seen an official reason ever given.)

Er—who says Clarabelle and Horace are still obscure? Clarabelle is a fairly major character in the modern Mickey comics and TV cartoons, if never as central as the so-called "fab five" (groan). And Horace is even more active in the new comics, often with stories of his own, though he doesn't seem to be in new animation more than occasionally—not sure why.
As for Clara Cluck, I think she got marginalized because as presented, she's a rather limited character: as presented in animation, she's an ostensibly humanized hen who nevertheless acts very much like a bird, not a person; she doesn't wear clothes and can't speak, only cluck. In the comics, she can talk and has reappeared occasionally, usually as Daisy Duck's long-suffering confidante.

[UncleEd]

I admit I only watched the recreation once but it looked like they got the timing for each frame fairly close to what Ub was doing around that time. I was impressed with that. I haven't explored the disc much but I hope a gallery is provided of Oswald art.

I know Horace and Clarabelle showed up on House of Mouse but what I was saying was they used to be part of that core group that Daisy is sometimes part of but got dropped aside. I haven't read many Disney comics because I'm so intimidated in buying them all. Does this one you sent the link for have an adaptation of the cartoon "Pluto's Christmas Tree" or is it another version, same title? Clara Cluck as Minnie's buddy makes sense. I think Oswald would make sense being added to this selection of characters if they still got used state side more often.

That Disneyland game is kind of cool in that if you play you see a short featurette on an attraction. Not sure if they're all vintage but the Haunted Mansion one certainly wasn't. Not worth playing so soon for another though.

[Barbossa]

Here's a question, how come the amounts produced were low for wave 7?
i.e. Donald Volume 1 had 165,000 and Donald volume 3 only had 50,000
Wave 5 had 125,000 of each (Donald volume 2, Rarities, Spin & Marty, Elfego Baca)

[UncleEd]

My guess is either the previous waves volumes had lower sales than were expected or it's an attempt to kill the line off. I'm surprised they expect to sell 2-1 Oswalds over the rest but I suspect that was done to off set the search and restoration costs of the films.

[MK Sharp]

The logic probably is that they produced 65,000 last year and of those only More Silly Symphonies is now unavailable - suggesting that demand is less than 65,000 for live-action titles or those with reasonably common shorts (Pluto 2, Donald 3).

However, a set of rarities is likely to be bought by a collector even if they already have the bulk of the Disney output on VHS or Laserdisc. In the case of Oswald which contains two films not in general circulation (All Wet, Sky Scrappers) and another two that have been only been recently located, there is reasonable expectation that every self-respecting animation buff will be availing themselves of a copy, even if they wouldn't buy any other Treasure.

I'm not sure that the Great General Public is likely to become more prone to silent animation as a result of the widespread availability of the Oswald set; although there may be some curiousity due to the "this is what they swapped the sportscaster for" factor.

[David S.]

3.) What Disneyland episodes on Disneyland are left unreleased? I can't think of many if any, excluding the Osmonds one since that was after Walt's death but I'd still have welcomed it here.

Here is a fairly comprehensive chonological list of every anthology episode from the "classic" days that acted as sort of a travelogue of Disneyland. I've also included 3 theatrical featurettes and 2 live television specials. I have most of these recorded from Vault Disney, just a few short years ago when the Disney Channel was actually worth watching - but I'd love to see it all appear on DVD, unedited.

All are anthology eps except where indicated:

The Disneyland Story, 10/27/54
A Progress Report/Nature's Half Acre, 2/09/55
A Pre-Opening Report From Disneyland/A Tribute To Mickey Mouse, 7/13/55
Dateline: Disneyland (Live TV Special), 7/17/55
A Trip Through Adventureland/Water Birds, 2/29/56
Disneyland USA (theatrical featurette), 1956
Disneyland The Park/Pecos Bill, 4/03/57
An Adventure In The Magic Kingdom, 4/09/58
Disneyland '59 (Live TV Special), 6/16/59
Gala Day at Disneyland (theatrical featurette), 1960
Disneyland '61/Olympic Elk, 5/28/61
Disneyland After Dark, 4/15/62
Golden Horseshoe Revue, 9/23/62
Holiday Time At Disneyland, 12/23/62
Disneyland Goes To The World's Fair, 5/17/64
Disneyland 10th Aniversary, 1/03/65
Disneyland Around The Seasons, 12/18/66
Disneyland: From the Pirates of the Carribean to the World Of Tomorrow, 1/21/68
The Magic Of Disneyland (theatrical featurette), 1969
Disneyland Showtime, 3/22/70

As far as I know, this is a pretty comprehensive list up until 1970. Of course, there have since been numorous tv specials and episodes about Disneyland produced since then, but these earlier works are the ones that generally have the classic "travelogue" feel, with nice leisurely pacing where you feel like you're strolling around in the park and getting an extended look at the attractions via "ride-throughs". Most of these early efforts were directed by Hamilton Luske, and the PARK was the star of the show.

In the 70's and 80's, this format would give way to a "variety show" episode format (some of which were outsourced) with famous celebrities singing and dancing in the park, but compared to these earlier works, you saw a lot less of the park itself and little to no attraction footage.

The 3 theatrical featurettes are all brialliant, IMO.

Disneyland USA gives a nice overview of the park just after it opened.

Gala Day At Disneyland focuses specifically on the 3 new attractions from 1959 and has incredibly breathtaking cinematography and a gorgeous musical score, featuring the somewhat famous cue (among Disneyana buffs) "Monorail Song". Great footage of the Submarine Voyage, Matterhorn Bobsleds, and Monorail can be found here.

Magic Of Disneyland is more like Disneyland USA, with emphasis on attractions that opened after the first film was shot.

A pattern can be seen in the earlier anthology programs of dedicating half of the episode to DL and the other half to something else. These late 50's/early 60's shows were broadcast in black and white and IMO not quite as memorable as the color featurettes and color full-length anthology eps from the 60's - but still pretty darn good, and worth owning on DVD.

As far as the anthology eps, the string from Disneyland After Dark (the first to air on Wonderful World Of Color) until Disneyland Showtime represents a peak of sorts, IMO. Each program has gorgeous color cinematography and is dedicated in it's entirety to the park, wonderfully and colorfully capturing the magic of the park and it's attractions, and making me want to catch the next plane to DL(even though I don't fly). Or more specifically, long for a time machine to get a taste of the park in it's earlier incarnations from "before my time".

Disneyland Showtime can be seen as a "transitional" episode. It features a nice Haunted Mansion ride through and some nice shots of the park, but foreshadows the variety show format that would come to dominate the theme park episode format of the 70's and 80's.

Although most of the WDW programs were the variety-show type, there are a few early efforts that retained some of the spirit of the early Disneyland efforts which I would love to see on DVD:

Grand Opening Of WDW (TV Special), 1971 - My favorite thing about this program is it presents excellent footage of at LEAST half of the Country Bear Jamboree and the late, great Mickey Mouse Revue!

Magic Of Walt Disney World, (theatrical featurette), 1974 - WDW gets it's own travelogue documentary in the tradition of Disneyland USA, albeit with a shorter run time and quicker edits. Also has nice POV of Country Bear Jamboree, but not as many songs as the Grand Opening Special

Magic Of Walt Disney World (anthology episode), 3/31/74 - This is said to be an expanded version of the theatrical featurette with the same title, including a preview of Space Mountain. Unfortunately I haven't seen it as it's the only program on this list that never aired on Vault Disney.

PS. To answer an earlier question, the second half of the Pirates/Tomorrow episode indeed features a tour of (then) new Tomorrowland, with a look at the attractions. None as comprehensive as the Pirates ride-through in the first half of the show, but a nice overview with great shots and score.

[UncleEd]

If you cut out any of the film library filler on the remaining Disneyland episodes not on DVD like the one with the elk and what not, how many more could be included on a DVD set? I have no problem with them releasing these with content that looks best on the DVD releases of that content like the True Life Adventures and the shorts. Anyone else have a problem with edits like that if it got more original content on the discs?