Buffy / Angel Discussion (Including Reviews)

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Post by ichabod »

Disney-Fan wrote:Only down side to this season: I'm starting to really hate Xander, and I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to happen.
Oh don't worry, I loathe the useless lump!

I really wish something happened to him, which didn't but happened to someone else! :(
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Post by nordic »

I loved the second season. It has so many great episodes. Surprise/Innocence, as you mentioned, are pretty much the defining episodes of the series to me. I can't believe you didn't mention Passion, though. It's probably the most heartwrecking episode of Buffy IMO.
Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered is also one of my favorite episodes of the season. But I really like Xander, so that might explain it.
Ooh, and Killed by Death is my scariest episode of the show. At least until the eye-sucking begins.

While there's a lot of great episodes here, there's also a lot of missed opportunities. Ted being one of them. How great wouldn't it have been for Buffy to realise she had hurt an actual human being? Instead they pull a monster of the week, and what could have been an emotional episode ends up just being a filler.
As for filler episodes in general, I'll think you'll find that season 3 has less of them. For better or worse.

I'm not with you on Xander. Sure, he grows constantly more useless, but he's needed as he's probably the most "normal" of the gang.
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Post by Disney-Fan »

nordic wrote:I loved the second season. It has so many great episodes. Surprise/Innocence, as you mentioned, are pretty much the defining episodes of the series to me. I can't believe you didn't mention Passion, though. It's probably the most heartwrecking episode of Buffy IMO.
Woops, thanks for pointing that out. I confused Phases with Passion in honorable mentions. It's a favourite of mine for sure, but not a top favourite. I loved Angel's narrative, and this was the first episode to use that idea.
nordic wrote:Ooh, and Killed by Death is my scariest episode of the show. At least until the eye-sucking begins.
That's the Giles-centric episode, right? I thought his subplot had so much potential that was wasted. I was really expecting to uncover how he became a Watcher since the question was raised in an episode. Instead we got irresponsible Giles that has demons from the past, literally.
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Post by nordic »

Disney-Fan wrote:
nordic wrote:Ooh, and Killed by Death is my scariest episode of the show. At least until the eye-sucking begins.
That's the Giles-centric episode, right? I thought his subplot had so much potential that was wasted. I was really expecting to uncover how he became a Watcher since the question was raised in an episode. Instead we got irresponsible Giles that has demons from the past, literally.
No, it was the episode with Buffy in the hospital, and the demon (death) that only the kids could see. Not a great episode, but easily one of the creepiest.
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Post by Disney-Fan »

OK, so I've finished off Season 3. Now, I'm having a hard explaining my feelings reguarding this season. It's definitely been awesome. The Mayor is officially my favourite all-hell-breaks-loose type of bad. Starting episode 3, the episodes constantly got better and more enjoyable. The arc was handled extremely well and packed the punch most of the way through. Now, here's the but; But where's Spike? One epi just ain't enough. Where's the massive season end cliffhanger? And what is that poor excuse for a premier? And why is Xander still a part of this show? Anyways, on to my favourite episodes:

* Faith, Hope & Trick - Faith has been awesome, and her introduction is wonderful. Nice action, lots of humor, great storyline. 9/10

* Homecoming - I don't know what it is about it, but I was enjoying myself thorougly the whole way through. 9/10

* Gingerbread - Joss' version of a Sunnydale hate crime is awesome. Not too preachy, always funny, and very subtle. Very Buffyish. I also loved that it came from good intentions on Joyce's part, it just spun way out of control (didn't like the solution though). 8.5/10

* Bad Girls / Consequences - Do I even need to explain this one? 9.5/10 -- Oh, and that dance sequence with Faith + Buffy -- HOT!

* Enemies - They had me goin' there again. I was screaming at the TV when they "turned" Angel again. I'm glad to see that was not the case. 9.5/10

* The Prom - Funny, well executed by both writers and actors, and very touching (the "I can't breathe, Willow" speach had teary eyed). 8.5/10

Nitpicks / Comments:
* I would like to ask once more: Why is Xander pathetic-and-oh-so-useless Harris still around? Ugh.
* The finale was lacking. I don't know if it was for the lack of a cliffhanger, or if it was for the lack of Cordelia's parting explination, or if it was just a poorly executed climax. Either way, it felt lackluster. The Buffy writers can do a bit better than a giant snake (been there, done that, only better).
* The second episode had me screaming at some characters. By god, If I were in Buffy's place I would've knocked Xander silly. He was pushing it, even by Xander-limit definition. At least they kept Willow respectful and caring the whole way through.
* Faith's turn to the dark side -- OK, so there was nothing bad about this bit, I just hoped she'd be redeemed by the end of this Ascention. :P
* The hinting that Willow's lesbian? Loved the way it was done. Props to the writers.

Overall for Season 3: 9/10 :up:

Your thoughts?
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Post by 2099net »

Well, here's my preferred season list from earlier in the thread:

3rd Season (The Mayor)
5th Season (Dawn)
2nd Season (Angelus/Spike)
4th Season (Adam)
7th Season (The First)
1st Season (The Master)
6th Season (The Pits )

So Season Three! yay!

Xander is still there, because he's supposed to be "us", the vewers. He has no powers. He isn't particularly brave, or clever. Surely you loved the Xander specific episode "The Zeppo" - that was 'king awesome man!

They do one of the biggest stories of the season, the Hellmouth opening again, and don't show any of it. Instead they concentrate on Xander who is, basically, pushed aside by everyone else. But Xander manages to have his own adventure and save Sunnydale. I love this episode, I really do. Its fresh, novel and funny.

But yes, at the end of S2, you really do want to hit Xander for what he did out of spite to Angel. But, its moments like that that make him a true character, rather than a cypher (although, I'll admit he probably has the least character development out of all the regulars, although this is addressed more in S5 and S7).

As for the climax, its not a cliffhanger because, I guess, the creators knew it was the end of an era for Buffy. Angel moving into his own spin-off... Buffy and co leaving school.

I personally think Graduation Day could be seen as a sort of "jumping the shark" moment - after all, its hard to ignore a giant 40ft snake attacking a school. But you have to suspend your disbelief - and I'm pretty sure one of the spin-off novels explains this away; it says the Mayor has cast a spell of denial over the town when it was first formed, making it easy for the citizens to ignore or explain away anything out of the ordinary.

Oh yes, Spike will be back. And funnier too.
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Post by Siren »

Yeah, I as mad at Xander for what he did, but what he did was probably the most human thing. He isn't gifted with slayer powers, nor uses the powers of witchcraft to get to the end of his means. He was jealous and selfish. He made a mistake. And though they didn't linger on it much, eventually, he comes clean, so that tells me, he felt guilty for what he did and sorry as well.

And I agree with 2099net, the Mayor or perhaps some other power had more then just a gentle grip over the city. It was afterall, over a Hellmouth. With all the murder and violence, let alone monsters that happen in that city, you'd think it would be a ghost town. But obviously, something held them there. Because if they chased a lot of the citizens away, vampires and demons lose their food supply. Something held them there. Spell, denial, not really sure.

And Spike does just get better and better. Watched Pangs today, in lue of Thanksgiving. I love Spike in that episode.
Spike: I just can't take all this mamby pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians.
Willow: The preferred term is...
Spike: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.
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Post by Disney-Fan »

Here it is, my season 4 viewing! So, this season has been, well, off. It has had really high ups, and on the other hand really low downs. My major issue (which I understand Joss was very much aware of) is that this season has almost zero flow of arching story. Every episode is very much stand-aloneish. Not much else to comment on, so I'll just continue to my favourite episodes:

* The Freshman - The Slayer being more vunerable than ever because she feels weak again is a stroke of genius. 9/10

* The Harsh Light of Day - It's great to have Spike back again and the whole idea with the ring was great (too bad Angel destroyed it :roll: ). 9/10

* Pangs - The first crossover featuring both main stars and turns out to be much more than a promotional event! This is also continued in Angel in an extremely emotional part II which happens to be one of my favourite episodes. 8.5/10

* Hush - Do I need to explain this one? Wonderful concept, creepy execution, fun all around! :up: 10/10

* This Year's Girl / Who Are You - You think Faith would return and I wouldn't love it? :D 10/10

* Superstar - Had me curious the whole way through. Wicked concept. 9/10

* Primeval - If only for that scene with Buffy and the combined power of the Slayers. SWEET! 7.5/10

Honourable mentions: Something Blue, The I in Team, The Yoko Factor and Restless (I'll have to comment on this one after viewing season 5).

Comments and nitpicks:
+ Beer Bad -- What were they thinking?? Yes, I got the message, but WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?? :roll:
+ The whole Initiative arc had so much more potential yet they dropped the ball midway. (which leads me to my next point...)
+ Adam. Why? Did any of the writers honestly think this would be semi-interesting? Poor idea, poor execution.
+ Willow's coming out was handled extremely well, and I admire the writers for that. It was never too akward. It felt right and the timing couldn't have been better.
+ Spike in the main cast! YAY!! :up:
+ Xander was almost non-existant this season. I was thrilled!

Overall for season 4: 7/10


Angel Season 1 review coming soon...
So far, comments, questions? Discuss! :)
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Post by nordic »

Season 4 was... interesting.
Like you said it has some really great episodes, but some really bad ones as well. Beer Bad comes to mind, as does Doomed and (the worst of all) Where the Wild Things Are. The writers must have been on something when they wrote these three in particular.

Highlights for me this season were Hush (of course), Restless, Who Are You? and Fear, Itself. Also, more Anya (yay!) and gay Willow is always good.

Season's 4 biggest problem is Adam and the whole Initiative. I didn't mind the idea as much as the execution. It just didn't come close to the potential IMO. I think this is one of the funniest seasons, though. Especially the first few episodes feel very fresh, and there's some great comedic moments in Living Conditions, Pangs, Something Blue and Superstar.

Overall an uneven season. While season 5 doesn't have as many highlights as this season does, it's still better IMO.
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Post by Disney-Fan »

Angel -- Season 1
To sum it up in a word, incoherent. It was easy to see that Joss and co. weren't sure if this is a continuation of Buffy, a new animal altogether or something in between. After a great Pilot the show seemed to swing from great to bland to awful, sometimes all in a single episode. This season had its highlights though, but sadly most of 'em only came during a crossover event.

Highlights include Spike's visit to LA, Buffy during Angel's conversion to human ( :cry: ) and Faith's redemption episodes. One thing I will admit is that I'm curious about the season end. Bringing Darla back should definitely be interesting, and I'm curious to see if Angel's prophecy is to be fullfilled.

Favourite episodes:
*City Of... -- 9/10
*In the Dark -- Though Angel's decision to destroy the ring really irritates me. 8.5/10
*I Will Remember You -- :cry: 10/10
*Hero -- 8/10
*Eternity -- 9/10
*Five by Five / Sanctuary -- 9.5/10
*To Shanshu in LA -- 9.5/10


Buffy Season 5 review coming soon.
Little preview for now: Best. Season. Ever. :D
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Post by 2099net »

I personally don't think Angel found its feet until the final episode of the 1st season "To Shanshu in LA" (which is "To live and die in LA" :D).

Maybe with Hero, but I still have a few problems with that episode (The demons weren't really demons were they, they were blatantly Nazis. I don't like that because the metaphor is too forced, and also, why have we never heard of this particular clan of demons again?)

Still, it all picks up next year. Oh boy, does it pick up! :up:
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Post by Disney-Fan »

2099net wrote:(The demons weren't really demons were they, they were blatantly Nazis. I don't like that because the metaphor is too forced, and also, why have we never heard of this particular clan of demons again?)
Definitely agree on that bit, but I loved Doyle's character arc for the episode. Too bad the only way they saw fit to conclude it was by killing him. :roll:
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Post by 2099net »

Hey Disney-Fan, after you've enjoyed the final Buffy season on DVD (Season 7), why not jump directly into Season 8. Yes, Season 8.

A whole 22+ episode "season", with a fully Whedon plotted "arc", episodes written by Whedon and other Buffy writers, and a Earth shattering conclusion.

The only thing is, it will be in comicbook form. But who cares? It's whole new Whedon Buffy!

http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=16875
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Post by ichabod »

2099net wrote:The only thing is, it will be in comicbook form. But who cares? It's whole new Whedon Buffy!
Oooh the adventures of the Scooby Gang continue! Although, unless it has Anya, I ain't buying! ;)
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Post by Disney-Fan »

OK, I promise to write a review real soon, but I am now rewatching the season and one thing is really bothering me. In Fool for Love we see that Drusilla is Spike's syer (sp?) but in Season 2's School Hard Spike clearly says to Angel: "You were my syer! My Yoda!" So, is this just a huge continuity goof or is it explained later on? It's really bugging me! :P
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Post by Disney-Fan »

ichabod wrote:Oh don't worry, I loathe the useless lump!

I really wish something happened to him, which didn't but happened to someone else! :(
Well, the useless lump is improving... Just a bit though. Here's my season 5 review:

Yes, I think this is by far my favorite season. The amount of godly amazing episodes that have come out of this season are plenty, and even the mediocre ones are 3 notches above anything up until this point. I'd like to first comment on one of the Buffyverse's most awesome creations; Glory.

Oh the glorious Glory. Written so well, acted out even better, and just seems to fit like a glove to a hand within the Buffy universe. Her character arc is gripping and interesting to see how she slowly but surely becomes a human-like God and not just a force at work. Her interaction with the cast is awesome, and brings out some awesome moments (especially when she starts a crazed ramble).

Buffy, I feel, suffered a wee bit too much as a character. Joyce's death ( :( ), Dawn just coming out of nowhere, Glory and death all in a year. Poor girl. As a result she has become full of angst, somewhat rude to her surroundings and is a far cry from her former self. I hope they address this soon and help her get out of this slump she seems to be going through (yes, well, right after they revive her :P ).

The supporting cast have become an inseparable part of the show and I now love them all as much as I do Buffy ('cept for Xander). Willow and Tara are adorable beyond words, and I hope they enjoy nothing but a bright future. Anya is slowly but surely becoming human, and I am now enjoying witnessing this growth within her. I felt so bad for her in The Body. Oddly enough, her emotions were the most human of all in that episode. Xander's character is finally growing up, and I'm happy for that. If this continues he might (gasp!) finally become a grown up. Last but not least: Giles. Not too much of an exciting season for him, though him becoming more and more the father figure is pleasing me a great deal. :D

Noticed how I haven't mentioned specific episodes? They're all amazing for me, each and every one of them. I'll just mention 3 honorable ones:

First being Fool for Love - I feel for Spike, and relate all too well. I understand Buffy's attitude towards him, yet I can't help but feel sorry for him. Despite the inconsistency with Drusilla suddenly becoming Spike's sire, the flashbacks were also great, and it was great to see that him killing other Slayers was just a case of right place, right time. It wouldn't have made sense any other way.

Second is Triangle. Developing Willow and Anya's characters in the midst of an all-out comedic episode was a stroke of genius. I love the guy that played the Troll and was laughing my a$$ off the whole way through.

Third is (obviously) The Body. I can honestly say I felt the uncomfortable feeling of death, and I suspect that that was Joss' intention. Seeing Willow and Anya was, for me, by far the hardest thing to witness.

I also loved the ending of The Gift, but was disappointed with the episode on a whole. It was a great season finale, no doubt, but nothing about it (except for the end cliffhanger) made it special. When a show reaches 100 episodes, I expect just a tad more.

Overall: My favorite arc by far, best character development for everyone yet, and still maintains those smart real-life analogies and witty humor that made Buffy so smart and interesting to watch. 10/10

:)
Last edited by Disney-Fan on Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by 2099net »

Oh dear. Season six is next. Good luck young sir!

They break Willow. :(
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Post by Disney-Fan »

2099net wrote:Oh dear. Season six is next. Good luck young sir!

They break Willow. :(
That bad? :(
Fans of the show in these parts seem to really love season 6. It seems to be a mixed bag when it comes to opinions about this season!
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Post by 2099net »

Actually, they pretty much break everyone in Season 6. I don't want to go into details, but... well, for me, Season 6 is pretty much the pits.

I don't mind change in things. I actually get quite amused when I read people complaining about actors changing in Doctor Who for example - its the constant turnaround of characters and ideas that keep the show interesting.

But change has to be change for a reason. None of the "changes" in Buffy S6 are for the better IMO, and virtually all of the scooby gang come out for the worst in S6. And, again IMO, Willow is fundermentally "broken" as a character and forever tainted by her actions in S6.
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Post by Disney-Fan »

Oh, dear...
I'm afraid to see the change within Willow, but I need some kind of Joss entertainment since Angel's proving to be a whopper disappointment. Speaking of the witch, I loved her little cameo Angel's Disharmony episode. I was ROTFL the whole scene.
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