DVDizzy Forum

Heil Donald Duck wrote:Those framening problem could be for few reason.

1. Your TV
2. Your DVD/Blue-ray player.

Well, the screen capture was made directly from the Blu-ray disc with a computer, and it shows the image as it is (1080 × 1920). There is no TV set or Blu-ray player or a camera involved in the capture. They are not photographs.

Besides, the view is similar on my TV. I know how to avoid zooming or overscan.

3. The transfer from the film/print to the digital format

Im not sure but I see little more than the pic above show but I don't see on my computer the feet of pinks all the time (good way to rule out some over scans).

You are not sure?

For the first, which issue do you have — the U.K. or the Mexican or some other? Could you post a screen capture here so that we can judge it ourselves? Can you see the edge of the bubble on which they are marching in this particular shot? (The colour in this shot is slightly "dim" because they are all in a bubble but you don't see the edges.)

miniroll32 wrote:My copy doesn't have that problem. The only time I notice any frame issue is at the very beginning with all the rain in the night sky

On the scene where the pink elephants waltz around the border of the screen, their feet do sit right on the edge. They only leave the frame as they take stride - if it was zoomed in, they wouldn't be touching the border properly.

Could you please post a screenshot so that we can see this ourselves? It would be odd (but not impossible) that different releases were framed differently.

My guess is that Dumbo originally was 1.37:1, but TVs are 1.33:1. I would imagine any "restoration" has been cropped slightly to the more convenient 1.33:1. Therefore, edges will be cropped.

This 1.33:1 cropping of course makes more sense for SD restorations than H restorations - its doubtful anyone will be watching a HD image on a 4:3 display. But I guess the latest restoration was done for a duel purpose of HD and SD transmission/viewing.

Did Snow White and Pinocchio have the same problem?

I don't think so.

ajmrowland wrote:It is confirmed after viewing the youtube video of the scene that no such framing issue exists on the new restoration.

I'm afraid you are not telling the truth.

There are several versions of this famous scene in Youtube:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMKvmy9yCis
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJv2Mugm2RI
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J61IemcP5lE
• etc.

When I just watched the HD version available there, it is as badly (too tightly) framed as the Scandinavian Blu-ray and DVD release is. Here's a screenshot to prove my words:

BK wrote:Did Snow White and Pinocchio have the same problem?

I don't think so.

Possibly. Very little happens at the edge of the frame in those movies for people to notice.

marlan why don't you post what should actually be there that way people can easily compare rather than posting the same 'cut' shot over and over.

BK wrote:Did Snow White and Pinocchio have the same problem?

I don't think so.

No, they did not. So it's puzzling why Dumbo didn't get a proper restoration.

Also, the framing of The Sleeping Beauty on Blu-ray was corrected from the earlier DVD releases. This message contains two screenshot comparisons: http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/showpost. ... stcount=29.

marlan wrote:

BK wrote:Did Snow White and Pinocchio have the same problem?

I don't think so.

No, they did not. So it's puzzling why Dumbo didn't get a proper restoration.

Also, the framing of The Sleeping Beauty on Blu-ray was corrected from the earlier DVD releases. This message contains two screenshot comparisons: http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/showpost. ... stcount=29.

Ah, I see. Well, then it is weird...

But you did say all the DVD releases have had it.
Snow White, Pinocchio were already fine beforehand I assume?

Then there's Bambi, Fantasia, package features all in 1:37:1.
I'm no expert, I hardly own any, but it seems weird that this problem would only affect Dumbo.

BK wrote:marlan why don't you post what should actually be there that way people can easily compare rather than posting the same 'cut' shot over and over.

Unfortunately I don't have a theatrical print (35 mm film) of Dumbo at my possession right now (who does?). I will contact the Finnish Film Archive next week and ask if they could scan me a few frames from it. The bad thing is that it costs apparently € 23.00 per frame + plus labour € 70.00 per hour!

No, they did not. So it's puzzling why Dumbo didn't get a proper restoration.

Well technically, it has - the film look flawless on my TV, and their are no framing issues. As the pink elephants dance around the screen, their feet always return to the edge. It is only once they take the big stride that the standing foot leaves the frame slightly. As I said, this is just part of the original production - otherwise, the elephants wouldn't be making contact with the screen as they stride.

And if their was an issue, it would be universal across all copies - not just relevant to certain continents.

Even if it was just a few millimetres out, can we honestly have a go at Disney just because of a couple of scenes were the frame is slightly incorrect? I wouldn't. The effort Lowry put into restoring these films is just remarkable

marlan wrote:

BK wrote:marlan why don't you post what should actually be there that way people can easily compare rather than posting the same 'cut' shot over and over.

Unfortunately I don't have a theatrical print (35 mm film) of Dumbo at my possession right now (who does?). I will contact the Finnish Film Archive next week and ask if they could scan me a few frames from it. The bad thing is that it costs apparently € 23.00 per frame + plus labour € 70.00 per hour!

Forgive my ignorance but how do we know then there are actually bubbles there?

Was it on the VHS/LD?

Why the heck would anyone go to that much trouble? If you can't enjoy the film without mentioning these 'frame' issues, then you're forgetting why the film is so great in the first place.

2099net wrote:My guess is that Dumbo originally was 1.37:1, but TVs are 1.33:1.

That is really not the problem here. High Definition televisions are always 16:9 (that is, 1920 × 1080 pixels when "Full HD"), so there is no need for that kind of "conveniency" you are referring to. Besides, the cropping seems here be much more radical than simply a 1.37:1→1.33:1 modification.

a HD image on a 4:3 display. But I guess the latest restoration was done for a duel purpose of HD and SD transmission/viewing.

That does not seem a plausible cause.

marlan wrote:Also, the framing of The Sleeping Beauty on Blu-ray was corrected from the earlier DVD releases. This message contains two screenshot comparisons: http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/showpost. ... stcount=29.

Actually the first DVD contains the OAR, while the framing of the Platinum Edition is widened!

miniroll32 wrote:Well technically, it has - the film look flawless on my TV, and their are no framing issues.

Good for you. I will accept that as well as soon as I'm allowed to see it myself, and will buy the same release that you have.

As the pink elephants dance around the screen, their feet always return to the edge. It is only once they take the big stride that the standing foot leaves the frame slightly.

However, you should see their feet entirely, and also the edges of the big bubble on which they are marching.

As I said, this is just part of the original production - otherwise, the elephants wouldn't be making contact with the screen as they stride.

How do you know what was the original production? When did you last see Dumbo at a cinema, projected from a 35 mm film print?

Even if it was just a few millimetres out, can we honestly have a go at Disney just because of a couple of scenes were the frame is slightly incorrect? I wouldn't. The effort Lowry put into restoring these films is just
remarkable

Remarkable? Perhaps, but not good enough, if 5–15 % of the picture may be missing. As said, we would need a theatrical print for confirmation.

BK wrote:Forgive my ignorance but how do we know then there are actually bubbles there?

As I wrote on 2006-01-10, it was so shown at a cinema.

marlan wrote:

BK wrote:Forgive my ignorance but how do we know then there are actually bubbles there?

As I wrote on 2006-01-10, it was so shown at a cinema.

Well, since Dumbo isn't one I really like, I don't care much.

And if it wasn't on the VHS release, which is the only format I've seen Dumbo in, then, I wouldn't notice the difference anyway.

I mean, you only know there are bubbles because of that one theatre experience. It just seems kind of inconsequential?

Do you have a screencap of what was cropped from Fantasia too?

5-10% Thats a bit steep.

The film is perfectly watchable - I don't know what all the fuss is about.

I've just taken some pics - will upload them in a minute

miniroll32 wrote:If you can't enjoy the film without mentioning these 'frame' issues, then you're forgetting why the film is so great in the first place.

I'm not forgetting that this film is very great indeed (no pun intented) — it's one of my favourites. But I cannot enjoy watching this particular transfer because it is "visually impaired", that is, the tight framing violates the visual composition of the image: all the time one notices how something falls slightly off-screen (as if there weren't "room" enough). I didn't notice any such problems at a theatrical screening, and when one buys a Blu-ray disc, she or he wants to see the movie as it was shown at cinemas. Nobody can (and should) be blaimed for that.

We all know that Walt strove for visual perfection — this release does not correspond to it, and does not do Dumbo justice.