DVDizzy Forum

Actually, I just had the ridiculous jingle stuck in my head. But I do like your idea more. Though I fear Charlton Heston may figure out what we're up to and run around yelling "Dr. Moreau's Double Trouble Mint Gum is PEOPLE! Dr. Moreau's Double Trouble Mint Gum is PEOPLE!"

albert

Disney Duster wrote:No, that is not the truth.

It is so far as anyone can prove it. It's only easy, after a certain age, to see what can be proven and believe in that. That's the only thing we can count on. At this adult age, wishful-thinking is a luxury and often- a dangerous thing.

Disney Duster wrote:science looks at only the physical, what they can see in front of them. That's all they can look at.

That's all that matters, really. For the purpose of social responsibility, we need to recognize people as deserving respect. But apart from that, all that matters and makes a difference is what we can see and feel.

Disney Duster wrote:What you said has reminded me why I hate some sides of science. They seem to view things as just cells or whatever.

Since they're trying to help and cure people of diseases... that's a good thing. Someone has to see us just for our parts.

Disney Duster wrote:I see and believe more.

And guess what, I always can.

And so I will. And you will not crush it.

Give me a few minutes.

Well, it's been way more than a few minutes, and I'm still believing and all the better for it.

By the way, I can't see it, but I certainly can feel my soul and spirit, as we all can.

It's terrible for anyone to see us only for our parts. And it's especially terrible to do it so much, to be so steeped in it, that's the only way you can view all of life.

About the lump of cells Laz mentioned, isn't Duster technically half right? They may not be a formed baby/human yet but they are still a living organism, or to use Duster's term, being (though I'm not fully sure if he means it in a living being or human being context).

Just thought I'd throw that out there.....*goes back to humming the jingle*

Thank you very much Chernabog. That's all I want to say.

Mike Duster wrote:

Laz wrote:Someone has to see us just for our parts.

It's terrible for anyone to see us only for our parts.

Anytime I see someone say "parts" in regards to humans, it reminds of "The Girl in the Fireplace."

And when it reminds me of "The Girl in the Fireplace" I realise I make too many "Doctor Who" references.

But anyway...

• THE DOCTOR
  Hello, Reinette. Hasn't time flown?
  
  REINETTE
  Fireplace man!
  
  The Doctor steps past her and sprays the droid with the fire extinguisher until it is immobile. He throws the extinguisher back to Mickey. The droid starts to click and whirr loudly.
  
  MICKEY
  What's it doing?
  
  THE DOCTOR
  Switching back on. Melting the ice.
  
  MICKEY
  And then what?
  
  THE DOCTOR
  Then it kills everyone in the room.
  
  The clockwork droid's arm shoots out towards the Doctor's throat - he jumps back and backs towards Reinette.
  
  THE DOCTOR (CONT'D)
  Focuses the mind, doesn't it? (addressing the clockwork woman) Who are you? Identify yourself.
  
  The droid cocks its head but does not answer.
  
  THE DOCTOR (CONT'D)
  (to Reinette)
  Order it to answer me.
  
  REINETTE
  Why should it listen to me?
  
  THE DOCTOR
  I don't know. It did when you were a child. Let's see if you've still got it.
  
  REINETTE
  (to the droid)
  Answer his question. Answer any and all questions put to you.
  
  The droid lowers its arm.
  
  DROID
  I am repair droid seven.
  
  THE DOCTOR
  So what happened to the ship, then? There was a lot of damage.
  
  DROID
  Ion storm, eighty two percent systems failure.
  
  THE DOCTOR
  That ship hasn't moved in over a year. What's taken you so long?
  
  DROID
  We did not have the parts.
  
  MICKEY
  (laughs)
  Always comes down to that, doesn't it? The parts.
  
  THE DOCTOR
  What's happened to the crew, where are they?
  
  DROID
  We did not have the parts.
  
  THE DOCTOR
  (persistently)
  There should have been over fifty people on your ship. Where did they go?
  
  DROID
  We did not have the parts.
  
  THE DOCTOR
  Fifty people don't just disappear! Where--?
  (it dawns on him)
  Oh. You didn't have the parts, so you used the crew.
  
  MICKEY
  The crew?
  
  ROSE
  We found a camera with an eye in it... and there was a heart... wired in to machinery.
  
  THE DOCTOR
  It was doing just what it was programmed to. Repairing the ship any way it can, with whatever it could find. No-one told it the crew weren't on the menu. What did you say the flight deck smelt of?
  
  ROSE
  (quietly)
  Someone cooking...
  
  THE DOCTOR
  Flesh plus heat. Barbeque.

Chernabog_Rocks wrote:Just thought I'd throw that out there.....*goes back to humming the jingle*

Doublemint's out of my head now, and I've got this one stuck in my head...

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albert

Disney Duster wrote:Well, it's been way more than a few minutes, and I'm still believing and all the better for it.

There is a difference between your belief making you feel better, and telling other people you're a better person because you believe. Like, those who don't are not better in their own way too...

Disney Duster wrote:It's terrible for anyone to see us only for our parts.

Okay, tread carefully, DD. To some extent, you're talking about the people who have saved lives with medical, scientific, and genetic cures to horrible diseases and disabilities. And who are trying to save more.

We need these people. We need research, regardless of how much it feels faithless to you. We need people to study the body without considering all this spirit and soul you're talking about. Otherwise- no one is taking care of us while we're on this Earth. You can't pray away or hope away every problem you have. And you can't count on a miracle either.

Chernabog_Rocks wrote:About the lump of cells Laz mentioned, isn't Duster technically half right? They may not be a formed baby/human yet but they are still a living organism

Um, yeah. Like spiders or fleas. But we kill those. Therefore- if you kill a bug, it's no worse than aborting a human that doesn't look like a baby. Especially if it's a rather small group of cells. Or a rather reptile-looking group of cells.

And remember- millions of hunters kill Bambi's mother every year, destorying her family. Yet somehow it's worse to kill a baby in cell-form that won't even cry when it dies. The reason why? Because of the religious implication that just because it can turn into a human being later, it's God's work. Blah blah blah. But seriously- it's way worse to kill Bambi's mother. She's way cuter than a lump of goop smaller than a human kidney.

I agree with Laz

Besides, I bet that even when we could achieve a successful expriment between half-animal half-human it could be just as the discovery of the genome: A lot of excitement because we don't know the complete implications of this...because we just have that A + G + A = Protein but we don't know what does this AGA-protein do

Lazario wrote:
You can't pray away or hope away every problem you have. And you can't count on a miracle either.


And remember- millions of hunters kill Bambi's mother every year, destorying her family. Yet somehow it's worse to kill a baby in cell-form that won't even cry when it dies. The reason why? Because of the religious implication that just because it can turn into a human being later, it's God's work. Blah blah blah. But seriously- it's way worse to kill Bambi's mother. She's way cuter than a lump of goop smaller than a human kidney.

Wasn't trying to say it's worse to kill the lump of cells or anything, was just pointing out Duster was right that they are alive

Also, I agree to an extent about the bolded part. You can hope things will get better but hoping and praying won't do anything unless you act on it I think. You could pray that your cancer goes away, but just sitting there praying and hoping won't cut it, you have to go to the Doctors and get things going to get the help you need to make it go away (or slow down etc.)

Probably not the greatest example, or at least not the greatest explained one.

When I said I believe and am all the better for it, I meant it has made me better, it has been better for me, it has made my life better, etc.

Of course someone is taking care of us on Earth. If the force keeping the universe together and in existence left us...uh, that is something I will not go into.

Chernabog_Rocks wrote:About the lump of cells Laz mentioned, isn't Duster technically half right? They may not be a formed baby/human yet but they are still a living organism

Um, yeah. Like spiders or fleas. But we kill those. Therefore- if you kill a bug, it's no worse than aborting a human that doesn't look like a baby. Especially if it's a rather small group of cells. Or a rather reptile-looking group of cells.[/quote]
Oh I see. You only bother with looks. Like scientists as well. If it doesn't look like whatever, it doesn't matter...kill it. No, killing a human anything is much worse than killing a bug or anything else. If you want something scientific, it's human DNA in there, not anything else. It's still human. It's still a living being. It's still a living human being.

As you can see, it is not about the religious implication it can become human. It already is human. It's all human cells. And a human soul in there that makes you special, unique, and you. Scientifically, if we must, all the DNA that is unique to you is in there. Scientists could just take a sample and get all the DNA that will physically make all of you up from it.

I admit, I haven't read the whole thread, but really this is not old news. We have been mixing humans and animals for a while now.

For instance, for people who have been born without an ear(s) or have an unfortunate accident that caused them to lose one...scientists have been "growing" ears on the backs of mice. They then cut off the ear and stitch it to a human being...but in reality, that is MOUSE skin and MOUSE blood running through that ear. And it has saved people from lifetime deformity. Helped them to look normal. Its only now because DNA is becoming more involved in it that it seems to be a problem.



Experiments in medical science like this, they benefit human kind. And there is so much more out there. There are species of animals that don't get cancer. If we can find exactly why, develop that with human samples, we may find a cure for cancer.

I don't believe in making something just to see if it can be made. I don't believe anything they create should then be up for sale as pets either.

But if it can cure AIDS, cancer, etc, then go for it.

Disney Duster wrote:When I said I believe and am all the better for it, I meant it has made me better, it has been better for me, it has made my life better, etc.

Understood. What I was mainly doing is saying - check yourself, you don't want people to think you're saying something else.

Disney Duster wrote:

Lazario wrote: Um, yeah. Like spiders or fleas. But we kill those. Therefore- if you kill a bug, it's no worse than aborting a human that doesn't look like a baby. Especially if it's a rather small group of cells. Or a rather reptile-looking group of cells.

Oh I see. You only bother with looks.

Would it be easier for you to believe that that is true? That I only look at the surface; because you need people like me to be superficial and cynical so you can go on believing, uninterrupted?

Actually, I was making a joke. Because on one level, what you're saying is really silly. Just begging to be poked at and satirized, even by an amateurist like me.

Disney Duster wrote:Like scientists as well. If it doesn't look like whatever, it doesn't matter...kill it.

Ah, so even after all we've been talking about here - you still see Science as a force of destruction instead of a healing force. And Scientists as cold-hearted murderers instead of trying to often help us. Forgetting all the while that the people who have invented medicine through the years were Scientists. Forgetting that without them- no one would ever have survived breast cancer, as well as a huge host of other horrible afflictions and diseases science has helped reverse, if not stop.

Disney Duster wrote:No, killing a human anything is much worse than killing a bug or anything else. If you want something scientific, it's human DNA in there, not anything else. It's still human. It's still a living being. It's still a living human being.

There's something you really need to be taught about human beings, stat - we are nothing without understanding our will to live. Or feeling the full pain of dying. You have to see there is a huge difference between a lump of cells that hasn't gotten anywhere and hasn't yet built our body to the point where we look like a human baby - and an actual person who knows the value of life. Not just as a chemical, physical instinct. But as something more. As just a lump of cells- we know and feel nothing more than an instinct to put pieces together. We are driven by just one single goal. And you know what? It's a dangerous drive. It's a drive that has no morality about it. It's just an instinct. We hate instinct without thought and understanding. We have to think twice before we kill and hurt or grab and take. We have the instincts but have to think before we do them. That, DD, is humanity as we cultivate it. Make it social. It's different from the human instinct. To do what is programmed, without consideration of consequence. A blind force. But when we develop rationality and feel pain - the potential to understand the results of our actions, that is when we become human in society's eyes.

We still have to recognize it first to understand it. You wouldn't even know it if you saw it. You'd have to have someone else tell you a pile of human cells are human to know it is. It's living, yes. But it's not the same as a human that feels loss of identity or the pain of murder. And you have to get your head out of the clouds and pay attention to something else - no one is trying to kill the children of people who want their babies just because we can kill cells of human embryos before they grow into babies. You're using that fear as an at-least subconscious motivator to make these statements. You're looking for someone on your side. Someone who fears as much as you do. To form a united moral front against natural facts, facts that are void of righteousness. Because you feel you need that righteousness, that that is what makes you civilized. You also fear that you're losing ground because many people are starting to see the facts as they are and not let their fears control what they understand.

Disney Duster wrote:Of course someone is taking care of us on Earth. If the force keeping the universe together and in existence left us...uh, that is something I will not go into.

Well then, don't you think That Someone is being a lazy pile of doodoo for letting us die horribly in drunk driving crashes, nuts shooting up buildings and schools, terrorist attacks, cancer and AIDS and diseases like Alzheimers and Parkinsons and depression, and drug abuse and alcoholism, kids being beaten and killed by their parents and other kids at school, animal cruelty, hatred and bigotry, wars, pestilence, famine, natural disasters, and the slaughter of the Indians (or any people- based on ethnic and religious differences), among others. Don't you think The Someone taking care of these people needs to be terminated from their post?

Nobody is taking care of us on Earth except ourselves. That thing is widely known to be a fact. And if God isn't to blame for all of that, how can we thank Him/Her/It for keeping our loved ones safe when other peoples' loved ones are dying or being killed and raped and abused or in great danger of becoming a victim? Or for putting food on some peoples' tables when millions of innocent children die from starvation and malnurishment, or for certain Presidents when everyone knows the voters and voter fraud are the reasons they're in office?

We know the reasons for these things - because there is no Someone taking care of anything down here. Otherwise, things would make more sense. Some of us admit it to ourselves and carry on with life. Others don't and choose to believe the fairy tales they're told in church and by their parents and other places. But just because some naive people can't stand the thought of living this horrible life without a big, never-ending party or soft and happy dream after it's over... doesn't prove the existence of anything. Nor will dying and seeing it for ourselves. Because if I die and am confronted with a big guy in white telling me I've earned an eternity in some place called Heaven - I'm going to remind that bastard that Life was no sonofabitching picnic. That nothing was worth the pain and the degredation and the suffering and the overwhelming sadness. And the guilt that you're not suffering enough. It's pretty freaking sick to assume we have to suffer for a reward. And, not very spiritual. Sounds much more like a sadist- a very human type of person with very human motivations for justifying and initiating the suffering of others. Who says it takes a God to come up with that one?

Disney Duster wrote:As you can see, it is not about the religious implication it can become human. It already is human. It's all human cells. And a human soul in there that makes you special, unique, and you.

Okay- that's not a very smart thing to say. Nobody can't prove it and it sounds kooky. To anyone. Everyone knows who our parents are, what they teach us, and what we experience in the world on our own makes us Us and builds our character. Life teaches us that as a fact.

You're using your religious implications to make the statement that the lump of cells is more than human. Our humanity does not include a ghost life extension (aka- the soul). It's another fairy tale meant to make people feel superior because they're following the rules set up by their religion. It's reinforcement of an ideal. That if you follow your religion's particular rules, your souls stays springtime fresh and squeaky clean and goes to a pretty place where you'll be happy forever. But- if you don't do what your told (a clearly Patronizing influence = the displeased father who will shame you and punish you when your naughty and stand tall over you making you feel small and wag his "no-no-no" finger in your face which lets you know you've been a bad puppy) then your soul rots and rusts and makes you do bad things which means it'll go to a not so pretty place where you'll burn and suffer for all eternity. Just like Life itself, only you'll be hyper-aware of it instead of having the magical power of ignorance to distract yourself with material possessions and morality.

It's all one big "Honor Thy Father" fest, with plenty of "Wait 'Til Your Father Gets Home" laid subtly in so we associate the fear of God's wrath and judgment with the fear of our own fathers('). The preachers say don't defy God, don't shake your fist in his face. Meaning- don't you dare disobey your father. Always do as your told. But some people know that religion is just like societal conformity- why let someone else make your decisions for you? It's your life. No one can live it for you. No one takes the brunt of all we have to go through but the individual. We have to face it head-on. Unless you're really, really, really good at avoidance.

We need to pay attention to Life's lessons to understand what's right and wrong. Not get distracted by fairy tales of rewards for being-good and fantasies of superiority. It's like The Great Pumpkin. We don't die or suffer inexplicable tragedy because we've been less sincere. The same way we don't get rewarded for being more sincere. There's no God or Satan, no reincarnation, no spiritual beyond in any extreme, and no soul. Call that scientific explanation. I call it: common sense. Pay attention without using any religion as a filter for what you see and hear and learn and experience. It doesn't always make you do the right things (because we're human - we're flawed), but it makes you wise enough to see when someone's colossally pulling your chain.

Oh, I still think science can do good. And yes, that it has before.

I do not believe that we all just start out with being programmed. I don't believe that's all, at all. You can throw a whole bunch of experiences or events in my face about children being bad or whatever but I will still always, always believe we have souls and we sense right and wrong and we feel bad when we do bad things and we really care about people and are good inside. That we have souls from the very moment we exist. And actually, something else is, children often don't realize what they are doing, so sometimes when they do bad things, they don't even realize the real consequences or know what someone else is going through.

No one needs to know the things you are saying they need to to be human. Sure, maybe in some people's eyes, but also part of being human is realizing other people have other thoughts, all that matters is what you think. You are human no matter what someone else thinks, no matter who else thinks "oh, not human enough". But according to what you said makes people human, little kids, even perhaps teenagers, aren't human, and they don't matter, they can be killed. It reminds me of that one college professor I heard who thought two year olds could still be "aborted" or killed because they weren't people in his eyes. Yup, someone else's eyes.

Of course someone is still taking care of us, for the reasons I said about what keeps the universe together and in existence.

Look. I'm gay, and I know the Bible is confusing and some people think it says something against gays where as I can read it another way, also with knowledge of what they probably originally meant as well as that the Bible has changed over time by not the original authors. But even then, I feel God wants me to be happy as he made me, gay.

But as you can see, I've felt the pain and the suffering of wondering "if I act on what I am, I'll go to Hell oh noooo" and all that, I've felt sad and angry and pained because of religious things, and yet I still believe and am happier for it.

I've been through some bad sh*t, and no, I will not go into it, so yea, you can't know how bad, and for now, you won't, but even through all the bad I've experienced or learned happened to others, I still believe.

And you don't know what's out there. You don't know if there could be something much better than this life. I would think it would only make sense to you there's something better, happier than this life, or at least, something akin to the happiness and better life we felt when we were younger.

So of course I believe there can be something worth all this trouble, pain and suffering. A heaven. And I do.

We are more than just what we're taught. You know that. Otherwise, what should I say, all you ever said to me was what you were raised on by your parents? NO. YOU ARE MORE. You have a soul, you have your own thoughts that didn't come from anyone else. You saw the world, you experienced the world, and then formed your own thoughts on it. You have a soul. You are unique and you.

Disney Duster wrote:Oh, I still think science can do good. And yes, that it has before.

So then, what's up with your sudden and potent paranoia of scientists now? You think science has suddenly become a corrupting force and is only doing bad? You speak as though science is only good in the past tense.

Disney Duster wrote:I do not believe that we all just start out with being programmed. I don't believe that's all, at all. You can throw a whole bunch of experiences or events in my face about children being bad or whatever but I will still always, always believe we have souls and we sense right and wrong and we feel bad when we do bad things and we really care about people and are good inside.

Okay. So where do you think our Good comes from?

Disney Duster wrote:That we have souls from the very moment we exist. And actually, something else is, children often don't realize what they are doing, so sometimes when they do bad things, they don't even realize the real consequences or know what someone else is going through.

And - why do you think that is?

Disney Duster wrote:No one needs to know the things you are saying they need to to be human.

Of course. I didn't say otherwise. I said the forces that control our minds define what makes us human. What really makes us human is our instinct, not our rationality. Our rationality is to blame for responsibility. But instinctually, we have no buffer that stops us from doing bad things. Our higher brain functions are what makes us mindful of others. But some of us use it instead to ignore common sense and facts. To use morality instead to explain things. A morality very much clouded and biased by certain institutionalized fears.

Disney Duster wrote:But according to what you said makes people human, little kids, even perhaps teenagers, aren't human, and they don't matter, they can be killed. It reminds me of that one college professor I heard who thought two year olds could still be "aborted" or killed because they weren't people in his eyes. Yup, someone else's eyes.

That's not what I said. Not even close. In fact- how did you miss the part about feeling the pain of being murdered? A lump of cells doesn't think to feel pain unless it has the ability to cry out. And the brain capacity to log-in the feeling of pain as a barometer to remember for later deciding it's in danger.

Again, like I said before, you're using your fear of abortion to rule your responses on this discussion. I've already responded to your fear. Now, let's try some intelligence instead; what do you say?

Disney Duster wrote:Of course someone is still taking care of us, for the reasons I said about what keeps the universe together and in existence.

You are now bluntly lying to yourself and ignoring what I said. And I think I know why. It's because I made it sound like my point was - there is no God. Surprisingly, that was just a by-way. My real point is that it's completely clear that if there is a God, he/she/it has absolutely no contact with us on Earth. No higher power is taking care of us. Ever. We only have ourselves.

It's a fact that some of us cling to the faith that there is a reason we are not the people being killed or raped or abused or are starving and diseased and tortured. If someone were actually taking care of us, DD, there might be a reason. But there is none. If someone were taking care of us, the devastation of the human race wouldn't be so random.

Disney Duster wrote:Look. I'm gay, and I know the Bible is confusing and some people think it says something against gays where as I can read it another way, also with knowledge of what they probably originally meant as well as that the Bible has changed over time by not the original authors. But even then, I feel God wants me to be happy as he made me, gay.

"He" didn't make you. Your parents made you. Yes, if there is a God, it's possible homosexuality as an orientation was created for a reason. But if that's true- "he" is not responsible for each homosexual person being homosexual.

Besides- do you think it makes any sense that some gay people want to have sex with their siblings? What's the reason for that? Did God make that? If God made that person homosexual, did he also make that person incestuous? You're making a lot of crazy statements here, which boil down to - God controls everything. But it makes no sense. Most things come down to a random series of events.

Disney Duster wrote:But as you can see, I've felt the pain and the suffering of wondering "if I act on what I am, I'll go to Hell oh noooo" and all that, I've felt sad and angry and pained because of religious things, and yet I still believe and am happier for it.

So because you've found peace with something in your life, you think that proves that God has control over our lives? Don't you realize that's the same thing as me saying that just because my life has been mostly shitty, that that proves "he" doesn't exist?

Clearly you don't believe bad things prove there is no God. So, be consistent. Good things don't prove that there is a God either.

Disney Duster wrote:And you don't know what's out there. You don't know if there could be something much better than this life. I would think it would only make sense to you there's something better, happier than this life, or at least, something akin to the happiness and better life we felt when we were younger.

On what basis would I have to believe that, DD? Because it's a nice thought? That's not enough. Yeah it makes sense for people to believe based on that reasoning. But all that proves is that people will believe what they want to believe instead of looking at facts and making a decision based on what the facts point to.

Disney Duster wrote:We are more than just what we're taught. You know that. Otherwise, what should I say, all you ever said to me was what you were raised on by your parents? NO. YOU ARE MORE. You have a soul, you have your own thoughts that didn't come from anyone else.

Um... The Human Brain is quite a remarkable thing, DD. It has nothing to do with a soul. Everything we see and experience is processed through that. All our judgments and beliefs come from what we have learned - filtered through our mind. Without a mind, there is nothing. The Brain is our consciousness. Our only consciousness. If we have a soul, as I said before, it's not an extension of our life. Or our humanity. It's just our energy. Like waves that vibrate from us when we move. Or sounds we make that affect the environment we inhabit. Nothing from our personality. That is formed by our developing bodies.

Disney Duster wrote:You saw the world, you experienced the world, and then formed your own thoughts on it. You have a soul. You are unique and you.

That's just the brain, DD.

Nothing more.

Our good comes from God, of course. And our soul, made by God.

We have a soul from the beginning. If you say some of our instincts come from the instincts of the soul, alright then. Our soul is always with us, so it is always behind everything, it's behind reasoning, etc. that you mentioned. Though, this one I do not know, but from the very moment it exists, the soul may feel a pain of not being able to live in the body it's been placed in if that body is killed so early on, it may not be the physical pain that you can only think of or study.

I am not using my fear as you are saying.

God is always taking care of is, as I said, keeping the universe together and in existence, though I admit, people, like scientists, may even be harming the universe, and so, God may just have to let that harm go because of free will, which he decides is right to let us have, and just take care of us after we leave Earth. But he's still keeping everything in existence.

Of course there is reason. It's interesting that if, as you say, everything is random, the whole coming together of the universe and us is random, that we can even think that there's is reason, and a point.

God made me, and is responsible for everything. Even if he let some things play out without what seems to be direction, he still set forth in motion the start that made everything come about into existence, to then come together in a certain way. Of course it looks natural, it's nature, which he made.

Of course God made incestuousness in existence, too. However it is down to people's wills to decide if they will do it or not.

No, if your life was shitty, my life was shitty too. Or at least, some shitty things happened to me that I will tell you were freakin' among the most horrible but I won't tell you what they were. And I still think God exists. The thing you may be missing is...you can find peace. You can believe. You can make yourself happier and stop thinking so negatively and that everything's random. Of course it's hard. But you still ain't trying. Oh, you tried for a few days and it didn't work? Whoever said it was easy or quick? Whoever said you didn't have to keep trying and battling bad thoughts every day?

The soul is what makes you you. Yes, on top of that are experiences. But your soul thinks about the experiences, decides things and chooses things using those experiences. The soul has our consciousness. If not a consciousness scientists or people like you can measure, that only makes sense, it's a soul, you can't measure it or study it. It is an extension of our life. And yes, it has lots to do with your personality, it is the core of you.

If you want to believe you are just how you are raised and experienced, well then, I guess you aren't talking to me, just a whole bunch of bad, negative world experiences. I'll just write off everything you say as maybe some people who were mean or some porn you saw when you were too young.

No, don't believe that. You have a soul that forms thoughts, feelings, and opinions about your experiences. We've all seen the same Disney movies, why do our souls love certain ones that other souls don't like? If you find it very hard to believe in a soul doing all that because you can't measure it, you can only look at the physical, what does that matter? Of course it can't be measured physically. You can still believe. And you will probably be better, happier for it. You can choose and decide, your life experiences don't make you. You can see the cruel world, have the world be cruel to you, and still believe in good, and that underneath it all we are good, and we will have a wonderful happy life later. Even if it's an after life.

Or you can believe in

Lazario wrote:Nothing more.

Which, is rather sad. Please don't do that. I still like you on here. Yea, so I care, so what...

Lazario is my new god!

Good posts! I wish I had that kind of patience.

Ever think that maybe this IS God's plan? Doctors and scientists discover new medicines and ways to save people's lives everyday. Some say, God's hands are guiding them. So why not God guide them through this too? But putting God into medicine never gets a winner. Heck, if my father followed his Jehovah Witness roots, I'd be dead right now. As an infant, I developed a lot of health problems. I am one of the few infants to have lived through SIDS (and only because my family lived directly across the street from a fire station), I developed a rare and deadly strain of E.Coli, I became anemic, I needed a blood transfusion. My father's side of the family are almost all Witnesses. My father converted to the Catholic church when he married my mom. His family was not happy, never really liked my mom, but it was HIS choice. So there I was, ready to die....for a third time...and the decision was made to give me a life saving blood transfusion...according to my father's side of the family, such a thing was against God. They rather me have died than be saved by science. Glad my father had wits to him. For about 8 years, we never saw my father's side of the family...They finally "forgave" him for his "sin" of letting me live.

Is that what God is all about? Don't let humans, with free will, develop the means to save HIS children?

When you mix God in really...its pointless. You are chasing your tail. While you say no, other religions may say the God they know, is helping, agrees, whatever.

If you don't like what the scientists do to save people's lives, then let your kids die. That's how some people's God works. Very sad indeed. I don't fear my God. I am certain if we were not meant to do such things, they would be impossible. If we were all meant to part the sea we would. If we are gonna say God chooses what we can and can't do, then we shouldn't be able to do this type of science in the first place.

Siren, I have indeed considered what you said. Did you miss what I said before?:

Disney Duster wrote:Oh, I still think science can do good. And yes, that it has before.

I agree with everything you said! Oh, and you were really special and meant a lot to your father to move him to do that, he really cared for you, as any father would, but that took a lot, and he really showed it, you were that special to him. I'm sorry that happened to you, too, though it turned out to bring something out in your father and you got to see more of his love for you.

Oh, Lazario, I do realize, you could have chosen to stay up and watch a certain movie, and kept watching because it interested you or whatever, and so that experience affected your life and helped make you you and build you up, but behind it it was still you, your soul, your decision, to watch the film. So yea, experiences affect our souls.

Siren wrote:So there I was, ready to die....for a third time...and the decision was made to give me a life saving blood transfusion...according to my father's side of the family, such a thing was against God. They rather me have died than be saved by science.

That's why organized religion scares the crap out of me. It was in the news just this week that a court had find a father guilty of the death of his child (son? daughter?) because he refused to give it the medical treatment it needed. I think that's good. It sets an example to other religious nutjobs.

Siren wrote:If you don't like what the scientists do to save people's lives, then let your kids die. That's how some people's God works. Very sad indeed.

Have you seen this commentary from Bill Maher's show about the mexican flu? I think it fits well with your post on God and curing diseases:

Bill Maher- Evolution & Swine Flu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyxxTT5la6Q

Slam dunk!

Goliath wrote:Lazario is my new god!

Good posts! I wish I had that kind of patience.

My secret: you have to pretend you're talking to a rational person. That always does the trick.

Goliath wrote:Bill Maher- Evolution & Swine Flu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyxxTT5la6Q

Slam dunk!

I concur. And then, in encore: AMEN!

This is actually something of a rare event. It's not often that I can agree wholeheartedly with Maher. Because truth be told, he's often very condescending to people who actually would support him and his views. And with not very much that puts him above those people he condescends to.