DVDizzy Forum

Escapay wrote:

David S. wrote:Why not be happy enjoying the format you like, and let DVD fans enjoy the format they like.

albert

I agree. With David's statement and Scaps' support of it. If I had to choose one statement show the idiots over at blu-ray.com, that would be it it.

Escapay wrote:

David S. wrote:Why not be happy enjoying the format you like, and let DVD fans enjoy the format they like.

albert

Remember David the opposite goes for you too

Thanks and I agree, it goes for both sides. Remember though, I've never wished for things to be DVD-only or made fun of people who like BD or claimed the DVD format was "superior". (From a pure technology standpoint, I admit BD wins). My issue has simply always been when Disney leaves a substantial amount of bonus features off the DVD to try to entice people to switch.

I have no problem at all with the idea of making the BD release an excellent release AND the DVD release an excellent release. There is room for both formats, and I hope Disney begins to realize that. A hypethetical extended Platinum series that included Dumbo and eventually added titles like Hunchback and Hercules released on both 2-disc BD AND 2-disc DVD would be a step in the right direction.

Spanish website ZonaDVD announced today the releases of Dumbo: Edición Diamante in Blu-Ray and Dumbo: Edición Especial con 2 Discos in DVD, both for February, 2010. Well, seems like Disney is already announcing this release in other countries as well. Here's the link: http://www.zonadvd.com/modules.php?name ... &sid=19937

David S. wrote:Do you get some thrill out of the idea of titles being "exclusives" that the majority of the population won't be able to watch?

No, of course not. But exclusives push the audience to adopt a clearly superior format. I didn't get a thrill when I bought laserdiscs like the special editions of Snow White and Cinderella for over $125 dollars at Dave's Video in Hollywood, but I did when Disney began releasing special editions of A Bug's Life and Tarzan on DVD. Better quality, amazing bonus features, clearly superior to everything else around, and a whole lot cheaper then those $100 laserdiscs. Sucked for people who were VHS only, but DVD owners were loving it.

So yeah, I hope Fantasia and Beauty and the Beast are Blu-Ray only, not because I get a sadistic thrill out of this format war nonsense, but like DVD killing laserdisc and VHS, you get so much more, and exclusives will help move the masses to the format, and we can put this all to bed and move on.

By the way, I don't "despise" Beauty and the Beast, I object to the general ignorance of animation. While people are free to praise the film for the characters and the music, the animation (in places, but not uniformly so) is sub-standard to much of animation feaure history. This is because of tight budgets and rushed production timelines. So when I hear people call it the "best Disney animated film", it rankles me, because they don't know what they're talking about. In the lazy animation thread, they're barely scratching the surface of the sub-par work in that film. Good movie? Yes. Great musical score? No doubt. Best ANIMATED film of all time? Not on Planet Earth. Maybe on Planet "Gee That Song Sure is Catchy", but not on the planet upon which Fantasia, Pinocchio and Bambi were created.

Rudy Matt wrote:

David S. wrote:Do you get some thrill out of the idea of titles being "exclusives" that the majority of the population won't be able to watch?

No, of course not. But exclusives push the audience to adopt a clearly superior format. I didn't get a thrill when I bought laserdiscs like the special editions of Snow White and Cinderella for over $125 dollars at Dave's Video in Hollywood, but I did when Disney began releasing special editions of A Bug's Life and Tarzan on DVD. Better quality, amazing bonus features, clearly superior to everything else around, and a whole lot cheaper then those $100 laserdiscs. Sucked for people who were VHS only, but DVD owners were loving it.

So yeah, I hope Fantasia and Beauty and the Beast are Blu-Ray only, not because I get a sadistic thrill out of this format war nonsense, but like DVD killing laserdisc and VHS, you get so much more, and exclusives will help move the masses to the format, and we can put this all to bed and move on.

Having them co-exist isn't good enough? Both sides will still get what they want. You're still getting your Blu-ray versions with exclusive content. I don't get why you feel the masses have to move to the format for you to be happy. Also as discussed in the digital copies thread, polls were conducted and it showed that most don't care about bonus features. As a result, they aren't using bonus features as a selling point to the extent that it once was and you see that the BD exclusive bonus features aren't really that big a deal. (to me anyway) Contrary to what you may believe, jumping from VHS to DVD was a much larger deal to most people. You're assuming most will/do feel the same way about DVD to Blu-ray. The difference is there's nothing sub-par about DVDs and people see that there's no reason to think they are (Unless you consider non-HD subpar). There was plenty subpar about VHS's. The point is, I see both of them co-existing. DVD as a standard format and Blu-ray as a deluxe format. The existence of the format war between Blu-ray vs DVD only became such a big deal when Blu-ray-only supporters wished death onto DVD. They would probably happily co-exist but many Blu-ray supporters won't except anything but the death of DVD. HD still is and probably always will be a luxury. I see nothing wrong having a video format for HD. What I don't like is how it's being marketed.

Let both sides enjoy what they like. Both are great formats. No side should wish death on the other side. If I as a DVD purchaser am content with co-existing formats, one standard and one deluxe, than the other side should be to. If we both get what we want (we're both getting Snow White this fall) then there's no problem. Movie companies don't seem to be happy with the idea of co-existing formats either and it's a shame.

I agree with everything Iceflash said.

I also think that for the AVERAGE consumer, the leap between DVD and BD is not perceived to be as big of an upgrade as the leap between VHS and DVD. With VHS, anyone could see the flaws just by watching a tv program live, recording it, and then watching the playback of the tape. And everytime you play back the tape, both video and audio quality degrade.

Laserdisc was a HUGE step up (technically and for bonus features) but the price point stopped mass adaption and the fact that you couldn't watch a movie all the way through without having to stop it and change discs (usually more than once) probably didn't help! I know both of those issues were always a turn-off for me.

So enter DVD, which, like CD did for music, introduced the masses to the idea of having their movies stored on a digital optical disc that would not degrade with each playback and that would theoretically last forever if taken care of properly. You could watch the movie all the way through, and the format was capable of supporting bonus features like laserdisc, but sold at a substantially cheaper price.

Hence, like CD in music, the DVD exploded in mass popularity. If the industry knew that "HD" was right around the corner, IMO they should have been forward-thinking enough to make the specs for DVD HD-capable, or waited to launch the first digital format until the HD version (BD) was ready to be THE format.

But it's too late now, Pandora is out of the box, and whether everyone likes it or not, DVD has been embraced by the masses and accepted as the "standard" format.

While I admit that BD is technically superior, I am somewhat skeptical that BD will ever have as many catalog titles as DVD. Since BD players also play DVD, this means that BD capability by it's very nature can NEVER be in more households than DVD capability. So let's say that (insert obscure title) is available on DVD, and it is percieved to have an extremely limited audience, said title may never get a BD release, because by being on DVD, everyone with a DVD-only player can already have it in their collection, and everyone with a BD player can also have it in their collection and play that release on their current player - it just won't be in HD.

That is a HUGE difference between these 2 formats as compared to CD making vinyl and cassettes "obsolete" or DVD making VHS and laserdiscs "obsolete". Because DVD is compatible with BD players, I think it will always be around. And this is not meant to be an argument with anyone or to start a DVD/BD war, it's just my honest opinion and observations.

Like Iceflash said, there is no reason why both formats can't co-exist and I really don't understand why some BD supporters feel like DVD must die when there are millions of people happy with it. Just enjoy what you like and don't worry about world domination!

I don't think that Blu Ray owners want DVD to die they are just happy and enthusiastic to support a new format. I'm not so sure why the tirade always beings when Disney choose to support/push a new format...deal with it. It's as simple as that, DVD/Blu Ray can co-exist but with Blu Ray Disney is pushing it as a premuim product. As with all premium products not everyone can afford/not everyone wants it, but there is an audience for it.

Also exclusive features will be with the product as well, please stop the ranting everytime they try to push the format you really are killing the buzz and excitement for the adaptors who choose it. Beside a very few minor select group here, no one besides the agressive DVD owners are starting these fights.

That's not exactly true though (that DVD fans always start things). In this case, Iceflash and myself posted because Rudy Matt said he wanted Fantasia and Beauty and the Beast to ONLY be released on BD. This goes beyond wanting the BD to have exclusive features - it expresses a desire for BD to have exclusive TITLES.

As for DVD fans complaining when BDs have TONS of bonus features not on the DVD - we have a right to discuss issues with the DVD release since this forum is not an exclusive BD forum. It is not our intention to kill any buzz of the BD fans.

It goes both ways though. I vividly remember the day I read Luke's announcement on the home page that after YEARS of delays, Lilo and Stitch was FINALLY coming to 2-disc DVD! I was so excited and expected to see people jumping up and down on the forums, but instead the thread about the 2-Disc DVD was dominated by BD fans complaining that there wouldn't be a BD version. That sort of killed the buzz for DVD fans, although I know that people weren't consciously trying to, and they certainly have a valid right to want a BD version, and express that want.

Perhaps if these issues continue, it would be a good idea to consider having seperate forums for Disney DVD and Disney BD so fans of each format can discuss both the high points and low points of various issues related to their format without ruffling the feathers of fans of the other format.

I'm not saying I expect that because I LOVE UD the way it is and will continue to be a fan of UD whatever happens, I'm just saying that possibly that may eliminate some of the tension or "buzz" kill.

All blu-ray players are backwards compatible with DVD, so it's impossible for DVD to "die" any time soon. All your old 20th century discs work on the nw 21st century equipment.

Thing is, the more people adopt HD technology, the cheaper it gets for everybody. DVD will be phased out by Blu-Ray, based on the sheer fact of the backwards compatibility. Eventually, you won't be able to own a DVD-only stand alone player or computer drive. Optical is going Blu-Ray. Faster everyone gets on board, the faster and cheaper it will be for everybody. So yeah, I am rooting for Blu-Ray exclusives. I didn't see anyone complaining when Fantasia was a DVD-only release last time out. I won't be complaining if it's a Blu-Ray only release this time out.

To be honest, at the time I didn't realize there was no VHS version of Fantasia released in 2000, but for what it's worth, I WOULD have agreed with VHS fans who would have complained about that, because at the time, VHS was still the dominant format, just as DVD is now. So even as a DVD supporter, I don't think that was a fair move on Disney's part.

And you can bet that if there is no 2-Disc DVD re-release of Fantasia as was originally promised, DVD fans will raise hell, and justifiably so!

EDIT - I'm not sure that the lack of a 2000 Fantasia VHS was done to sell DVD as much as it was to remain true to the advertising on the previous VHS that it would be the ONLY time Fantasia was released on that format. (I remember reading about this after the fact). If Disney was truly trying to push people away from VHS, they would have used that same tactic on Snow White the next year and on the first several Platinums, which had VHS releases up until around 2005.

And not to be petty, but is there really a need to take cheap shots like "20th century disc"? DVD didn't hit it's stride until the 21st century, and if you want to really be technical, "Hi-Def" technology has been around since the 20th century as well, even if the BD format itself hadn't been launched yet.

The irony in all of this is that many of the "early adopters" who are so quick to abandon and criticize DVD will also be the first to abandon and criticize BD and act like it's a "POS" as soon as something slightly better comes along!

I try to stay out of the DVD vs. Blu-ray arguments, but that was very well written, David.

Rudy Matt wrote:Thing is, the more people adopt HD technology, the cheaper it gets for everybody.

Regardless of whether or not people want to upgrade (since many, including myself, are happy with DVD), it's just not financially possible for some at the moment. I wonder how people on here afford so many Blu-rays and DVDs! I just don't have the money to buy Blu-ray players and High-Def TVs. The monitor I'm using right now is a HD-TV that my husband won in a raffle, so I mean, we have one.

Just take into consideration that not everyone is rich enough to purchase such extravagant things...some of us are happy with what we have!

This is the Dumbo thread, right? It's hard to tell...

Does anyone think that Disney purposefully left off some material on the Big Top Edition so that they could rerelease the film in a better edition?

David S. wrote:And not to be petty, but is there really a need to take cheap shots like "20th century technology"

Well, the modern NTSC standard was created in the 1950's. DVD pumps out as much lines of resolution as it can, but ultimately, it's still an NTSC machine. So yes, it's 20th century tech. HDTV was created in the 20th century, too, but it took years of squabbling and wrangling before they created the acceptable standards, and Blu-Ray has come along (in the 21st century) to take advantage of HDTV and deliver Pinocchio, Sleeping Beauty, and Grand Canyon to you in a way that blows every previous release out of the water.

blackcauldron85 wrote:The monitor I'm using right now is a HD-TV that my husband won in a raffle, so I mean, we have one.

That's fantastic! congratulations. Did you know Wal-Mart is already selling Blu-Ray players for under $100? And while MSRP on Disney Blu-Rays seem high, they're typicaly available on release week in the $20-$23 range? That surely isn't "extravagant", is it? It's the TVs themselves that are the real pocket-book killer, but they've been coming down in price every year, when I was married last year, my wife and purchased ours for around $900. Great set, too.

You made some good points, Rudy Matt. I don't need a new DVD player at the moment, so whether or not I bought a new DVD or Blu-ray player wouldn't make much sense at the moment.

Can't we have one dvd disscussion without dvd vs blu-ray come on.

schoollover wrote:Can't we have one dvd disscussion without dvd vs blu-ray come on.

I apologize- I shouldn't have posted about that topic...I was debating whether or not to. It just blurted out. I'M SORRY!!!

On-topic: Again I ask: Does anyone think that Disney, knowingly, willingly, purposely, left off from the Big Top Edition some material they knew they had just so they could soon put out a bigger, better edition? Since they love people double-dipping...?

blackcauldron85 wrote: On-topic: Again I ask: Does anyone think that Disney, knowingly, willingly, purposely, left off from the Big Top Edition some material they knew they had just so they could soon put out a bigger, better edition? Since they love people double-dipping...?

I wouldn't put it past them, and if I had to take a guess, I would sadly say "yes". They even left off the trailers and the Reluctant Dragon excerpt that had been on the 2001 edition.

I think Dumbo was originally expected to be a 2-Disc in 2006. In hindsight, by 2006, they had ceased production of 2-Disc DVDs for DAC reissues except for the Platinums (which also began to have less content than earlier Platinums around this time). I think the first sign that the wheels were beginning to fall off, as it were, was when the previously announced 2-Disc DVDs for Tarzan and TENG were shortened to one-disc sets, (in fall 2005) and people began to speculate that they were holding material back for future releases in the BD era. (And as long as any upcoming meaty BD reissues are also available as a 2-disc DVD, I won't complain - I promise

PS. Amy, in my opinion, you did not do anything wrong by participating in the DVD/BD aspect of the thread, as it had already begun anyway, and these issues are valid ones anyway - and thanks for the kind words about my post above!

(The rest of this is not directed specifically to Amy but about the DVD/BD issues)

I know it gets tiring for some people to read but it's the reality of the fractured fan-base right now. BD fans are excited about the new format so when DVD collectors lament cases where the DVD version gets screwed, it can kill their buzz. Likewise, when DVD fans get excited about a release and people complain about the lack of a BD, in can kill the DVD buzz.

But the needs of people who collect both formats are valid things to discuss, and IMO they should be able to - but that's why so many threads keep taking this direction. I really don't know what the answer is. I know I, for one, joined the boards out of excitement over my growing Disney DVD collection, and I feel that when a DVD release get's the shaft (like Up), that I, and other DVD fans, have the right to express disapointment in the same way I expressed joy over the unexpected surprise of Lilo and Stitch on 2-Disc DVD. I know BD fans want us to stop "whining" in these cases, but if we can't discuss Disney DVD issues, both good and bad, on UD - the ULTIMATE fan site for Disney DVD -then where can we?

The fan community is simply going to have radically different points of view about various releases right now, based on whether they collect DVD or BD, and how the release in question favorably (or unfavorably) treats the format of their choice.

blackcauldron85 wrote:Does anyone think that Disney, knowingly, willingly, purposely, left off from the Big Top Edition some material they knew they had just so they could soon put out a bigger, better edition? Since they love people double-dipping...?

Well, that depends on what's out there. The 40th anniversary edition featured a fine commentary by John Canemaker and a great featurette with clips from leading modern animators. I thought it was sort of a Platinum already with all that was loaded onto the disc. Seriously, if they just ported all of that over to Blu Ray, along with a 4k restoration of the film, I'd be fine with it. I mean, what else is really out there to be "left out"? Walt introducing the film from the 50's? That was on Big Top, right?

It sounds like a lot of new content will have to be created to fill the disc. Just off the top of my head, some sort of testimonial to the theme park ride, analysis of the Pink Elephants on Parade, Andreas Deja breaking down the animation in the bathing scene, tribute to the award winning music, etc.

I'm not worried about Disney excluding something. I'm more interested in what they are including. If Fantasia is pushed back to help cross-promote that Nicholas Cage movie then I suppose I have no choice but to sit and wait, but dammit, if I have to wait another year, that set better include that Kostal 1982 soundtrack.