Ooooh BOY. HERE WE GO!
JeanGreyForever wrote:
That's your opinion which you're perfectly entitled to but you don't get to speak for everyone, let alone "a large fanbase of people."
Majority of the people I know and talk to and even people I come across on web seems share the same sentiment. Keep in mind, You are the one that called us who are unhappy with Disney's Star Wars, "Disillusioned". I can't speak for the others as they are capable of defending themselves on their own, but I have to defend my own if you are to call me that.
JeanGreyForever wrote:The sad truth is that most of the EU was trash. Yes, it produced some amazing books, but that was a small minority compared to Darksaber, Crystal Star, The Jedi Academy Trilogy, The New Jedi Order, etc.
There were bad ones. No one is disputing that. But their were some fantastic ones too as you said, as well. My beef is that They scrap entirety of it rather than just scrap the shit ones. It's more obvious that Disney realized how popular and beloved many of the EU is are they try bringing many elements back into it, although despite that, it's doesn't feel the same (Thrawn) or poor knock off ( Kylo ren is pretty much Jacen Solo). The ones you list are bad.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Did you forget about the Yuzzhan Vong and how they took cluttered up most Star Wars stories after their introduction?
They did drag on too long. But it did have a fanbase. Other wise Dave Filoni wouldn't have been planning to incorporated them in the canceled final season
of The Clone Wars ( I dunno if they will be back for upcoming one for disney+ streaming).
JeanGreyForever wrote:Or how IG-88 literally became the Death Star?
Oh come on. lol That was stupid and dumb but made me laugh.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Or Chewbacca's death (did you really think they were just going to leave him dead for the new films)?
They killed off Han and Luke. Leia is irl dead. might as well kill Chewbacca while you're at it.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Or even the fact that before Rogue One, there were three separate stories about how the Death Star plans were stolen by the Rebel Alliance and none of them were ever any good.
This is only one I'm unfamiliar with. The one I'm always familiar with is the Kyle Katern one. what other one is there? And Kyle Katern story From Dark Forces was good. I disagree with you on that.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Heir to the Empire may have brought Star Wars back to life, in time for the Special Editions and the prequels (regardless of how you feel about them), but if you look past the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia, most of it hasn't aged well.
I disagree. Heir to Empire seems to age rather well compared to the other EU stories. But if you're going to go the aging well argument, you can say there are elements in Prequels, or even some stuff in OT that hasn't age well.
JeanGreyForever wrote:I mean Luuke, really?
Alien creatures that can repel the force?
Name was dumb but Fighting clone luke wasn't. It was done as a means in story for Mara Jade to end her Mission by the Emperor she was designed to fullfilled. It was for her to move on. I like it. As for the Ysalamiri, i have no problem with them and they're fine. I like the use of them as a means for Thrawn have some levelage against the jedis other wise he wouldn't be that threaten and would get beaten easily by the jedi and C'Bouth
JeanGreyForever wrote:The convoluted backstory of clones?
To be fair, this novel and many others that involved the cloning story were made at time before Prequels came out and solidified the clone wars back story. Back then people had to used their imagination what the clone wars was possibly be about.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Disney did a great job clearing all of this away, especially because general audiences were not familiar with this nor could you expect them to be beholden to these works when even many hardcore fans had lost interest with the EU's direction.
Disney always been about catering to lowest common denominator and the general mass. This is why I knew Star Wars will not become as successful as Disney hoped. Star Wars, despite being a iconic big brand, has a core niche fans. Lucas, who is a smart business man, didn't do that and why he been so successful all these times prior to disney buyout. Even in the prequel era, as blacklash as the films got, was producing successful merchandises, EU from that timeline, video games etc for the fans who did enjoy them and grew a dedicated fanbase within that era it's self.. Barely anyone are even buying the Sequel trilogy toys or products. Why? Fans care less for them and aren't interested. Barely anyone cares about Rose Tico, Jyn Orso, etc.
JeanGreyForever wrote:And Lucas himself would disregard the EU whenever he wanted to like Timothy Zahn's rendition of the Clone Wars or the evolution of Mara Jade's character.
He did but he also praised many of EU aspect too. Shadow of the Empire comes to mind on that one right down to implementing cameos in A New Hope Special Edition, wish he had thought of of it back then, and forming entire marketing for it even down to having it's own soundtrack.
JeanGreyForever wrote:I'm not saying Disney has done everything amazing, since little to none of their books have left any impression on me, but overall, their films have been adopted into the public consciousness which is more than you can say for pretty much 99% of the EU.
The films been adopted to public consciousness because that who general audience go for, and Disney being Disney, want to capitalize one that. The problem is that even if we take EU out of equation that are more geared to hardcore fans, the films alone show that the sequel trilogy is unfaithful and poor in even attempt on following in faith of OT or Prequels (again, i'm not a fan of the prequels but there are many who are so giving that out there)
JeanGreyForever wrote:If they hadn't gone for the nostalgia points, the film would have been received as well as the prequels.
You don't know that 100% for sure. I think just having Luke Leia and Han back together is enough to do so. Problem is, they went TOO similar. JJ Abram is a good visual director, but when comes to being creative in story and characters, he's poor on that. He also sets things up but never delivers on them. Lost comes to mind on that. It shows many times on a numerous of his Bad Robot projects. And this extends not just Him but many in that Bad Robot circle.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Doing so united audiences and brought back Star Wars after it had been creatively dead for a decade at that point, at least for the general public.
For one film. The TLJ came and you see where that went.
JeanGreyForever wrote:BTW, most of those scrapped concepts from TFA art book are being implemented in TROS so maybe you ought to give it a chance then if you actually feel like you missed out on those things.
Define "most"? Cause only two I know of they reusing from that is the Death Star II debris submerge in water, and the Emperor. And still, as I mention before, the fact they are now going back to reusing the old concept for TFA for TROS shows they either have no clue what's to do hence why they're bring the fucking Emperor back of all things and it shows that TLJ wrote themselves to a corner.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Honestly, this has been disproven so many times. Solo suffered from marketing mismanagement, not to mention the general lack of hype for a film that wasn't really asked for. The new casting was a turnoff for a lot of Harrison Ford fans (who's the most popular and famous Star Wars actor) and the change of directors brought in a lot of ill will as well. The release date was the last straw since Bob Iger forced it to be released in the summer to accommodate Mary Poppins Returns as the sole family film for the winter holidays and we saw how well that film did. At the end, one film was sacrificed for the sake of the other, but both flopped.
Those are also true. However, what I mention is also a factor. Many people I know and possibly many I don't know, were not happy with TLJ and in addition to the crap they had deal with from people within
JeanGreyForever wrote:Yet, all over online, I've seen Star Wars fans who missed out on Solo for whatever reasons
I gave you some of reason they skip it. If you don't want to acknowledge that, then that's on you.
JeanGreyForever wrote:but actually end up liking it after watching it and I know many people in real life who feel the same way.
Many i come across felt it was mediocre or alright. I haven't seen it still.
JeanGreyForever wrote:And frankly, most TLJ haters are sexist or racist which is evident from their garbage opinions.
AND THERE YOU HAVE IT. Now multiply that by hundreds on twitter and other social media sites and then you'll know what SW fans are pissed. When fans criticized Prequel era, did Lucasfilm company call them those names? No, because the political climate wasn't what it became now thanks to Social media assholes. And many of us who give reason for why TLJ suck donkey balls gave legit sounding reason.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Literally, JJ Abrams has flat out said that TLJ won't be retconned in TROS so I'm not sure where you are getting this information from. In fact, he said that Rian Johnson's choices in his film inspired him to depart from the traditional Star Wars structure and really branch out and do bigger and better things.
I heard him say that shit too. But here's the thing. How much of that of what he said is PR fluff and how much is that genuine? Cause every thing we're seeing and reading about TRoS from trailers, vanity fair mag etc, seems to contradict. Bringing back Anakin's/luke's lightsaber that got blown to pieces in TlJ? Kylo Ren repairing his helmet after he smashes it to pieces in TLJ? Snoke dead. oh ok we'll bring Emperor back? I could go on.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Considering you criticized TFA for being a "remake," I would think you'd be happier about the fact that Abrams is going to go all out for this new film.
It's not only criticism i have for it but is one of them. By this point I don't care. If he succeed good for him. I think it's going to be a disastrous mess. He's directing it but the writers are the same people who wrote that horrendous Justice League Movie. with the two combine. I could only imagine. I have little to no faith it this movie.
Mob mentality is a real thing and it's really easy to be disillusioned after you keep hearing the same negative opinions being spouted over and over by people who think it's cool to hate on TLJ or Star Wars in general now. Negative comments online are always more prominent than anything positive anyway.
I don't think anyone wanted hate it to be "cool". Many saw these movies, and they decided to voice their opinion on subject matter (most on youtube). Some in comment would pop in comments and say "yeah i agree with you" or "yeah i saw that movie too. it sucks". sure there are some that go overboard and those ones usually doing it for internet attention or just bored.
JeanGreyForever wrote:So now animal rights is a bad thing? That alone shows me why people label TLJ haters as sexists, racists, and bigots in general.
No one say animal rights is a bad thing. But honestly, why the fuck you need that in a fucking Star Wars movie? Only other than to shove a political message down people throats regardless if they are for or against that topic. Would you like it if a movie like Star Wars (especially an escapism one) shoved a Conservative political message like pro life message in it (or even another liberal message? I dunno your politic so just throwing that out there just in case) No, you wouldn't. Same deal here. And even though I am conservative, I still wouldn't want any conservative messages shove either in a fucking Star Wars film.
The reason so many are reacting and rightfully criticizing these political pandering in entertainment is because many in Hollywood media world are using these entertainment medium as mouth piece and as response to stick it to current administration. But to normal audience members, they don't give a shit about your political beliefs (the few who do applaud their "bravery" are quite honestly a small minority with a loud mouth), and quite frankly don't want any of that shit in products they are paying out of their wallets to consume.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Politics have always been a major part of Star Wars since the very beginning.
SInce when? Star Wars was made because Lucas:
1) Want make a Flash Gordon movie but couldn't get rights or what's not
2) And want make something that incorporate everything Lucas love. from Movie genres, to various mythologies , to WWII, to cool things like Samurais etc
JeanGreyForever wrote:The original trilogy was a criticism of the Vietnam War
The fuck? where? OT was a love letter to WWII influence. Tie fighter vs X-wings is reminisce of WWII airplane dog fight. Empire is amalgam of British empire and the Nazi. Han Solo's blaster is based on Nazi Luger pistol.
JeanGreyForever wrote:while the prequels were a political allegory of the Iraq War and had thinly veiled jabs at Bush's administration.
No. The Prequel political scheme that the Emperor hatch and especially how he became the emperor and the fall of the republic is again harken back to how Hitler took over Germany and the rise of the Nazi regime. He over threw the weak German democracy and gain support to be nominated as furher of Germany. Very similar with the Emperor. The last part about bush is true. I remember that being pointed out back in the day. And even back then, I remember people criticized that as something dumb.
All in all, even using Prequels as frame of reference for the politics. It was never one side or other and the fictional politics used in prequels were used as a frame structure to overall trilogy giving use of Coruscant, the republic etc.
JeanGreyForever wrote:In fact, the sequels are the least politically oriented in comparison
Holy shit no. lol
JeanGreyForever wrote:and no, showcasing a female lead and a minority male lead does not count as shoving politics down people's throats.
It's not even that. And even if you count that. The marketing made it out as such to overblown level especially Rey, rather than just treating them as simply characters. You never saw them do this with any of OT or Prequel characters.
JeanGreyForever wrote:The point of Canto Bight was to show that the rich are profiting off war at the expense of people like Broom Boy or Rose, who hail from poor planets or backgrounds and are treated as slaves.
Yeah only that. And it was point that didn't go anywhere and i highly doubt will be revisited either whether in TRoS or any future movies. Also, that implications already been kinda shown before at a more subdue level with Watto on a street level with the slavery and Jabba the Hutt on a more bigger scale. The Canto Bight scene seems way more blaring as if they was to hammer you down with it. When I saw that scene where DJ explains that shit to Rose and Finn, I said to myself, "I know. People like Jabba been doing that for years before."
P.S i'm a hardcore Jabba the hutt fan lol. Got a $800 statue of him. So beautiful.
JeanGreyForever wrote:At the same time, we see DJ and discover that Rose and Finn's black and white view that the First Order is the only group being aided by the rich war profiteers isn't true because the Resistance is just as complicit and getting their weapons from tem as well.
As mention before, on paper that's an interesting angle. However, you know they aren't going to anywhere with that route or revisit it. It's going come back down again in TRoS with good vs evil angle. FO vs Resistance.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Most importantly, Canto Bight was necessary because it is the catalyst for Finn's shift of perspective. The end of TFA and the beginning of TLJ show that his main concern is Rey and taking her as far away from this conflict in the galaxy as possible.
It is Rose and his experience on Canto Bight that makes him see that he can't stand by when so much of the galaxy is being oppressed which brings about his heel turn when he takes pride in being "rebel scum" and is willing to even sacrifice himself for the cause.
Here's the problem. That character arc of Finn happened in TFA where defect from FO to get out of the conflict and then later at maz's place want to leave on his own and want nothing to do with even Resistance's conflict. Basically a coward. But he gradually overcame that, and accept to assist Rey and Resistance and even overcame his cowardness by bravely challenging Kylo Ren. Now jump to TLJ, Finn's character arc that already been resolved at end of TFA got recycled back to beginning again. want opt of of Resistance and rey as well as you mention, only to have now Rose be the one to change his view ONCE AGAIN. Finn had most potential and they shat on him.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Unfortunately, Finn nor Rose were at liberty to rescue the kids at that point. Their greater mission was to find the master codebreaker so they could save the last remnants of the Resistance from the First Order.
And they failed. And they story got written to a corner.
JeanGreyForever wrote:Only if that occurs, can hope survive long enough in the galaxy to one day be able to rescue these kids and we see that at the end with Broom Boy and his friends.
And that's the thing. As I said before, You know they'll never going to revisit this shit. Rian Johnson add too many over complicated plot points that even as general audiences viewer could see will never go anywhere nor would they think this was ever going be the intentions.
JeanGreyForever wrote:The fathiers were released as a distraction so they could escape with the added bonus of freeing them.
There were so many ways to distract those idiots. Hell fucking BB-8 could of hatch up 20 different schemes lol
JeanGreyForever wrote:If you have complaints about this, why not complain about why Qui-Gon never frees the slaves on Tatooine like Anakin thought he was there for? They don't even try and rescue Shmi years afterwards.
First off, i'm not a prequel guy. i never like prequels. But If want my explanation on that, first Qui gon went there to gets parts for ship. That was the initial intention. When they got to Mos Espa, they came across Anakin. When Qui-Gon discovered this kid is ripe for Jedi grooming, he found a huge bonus. two bird one stone. Qui-Gon was never virtuousness and moral type guy. When he used his jedi skills to manipulate the bet against watto in his favor shows that. Also through out the trilogy, shows that the jedi weren't as moral good or just as they made themselves out to be. It's partly how Emperor was able to decieve them and win. The Jedi could give less a shit about the slaves.
JeanGreyForever wrote:
That's was the problem many fans had. Rian Johnson's The Last Jedi pretty much ignored anything JJ set up in Force Awaken thus feeling you're watching a completely different film altogether. I never like Force Awaken, but even if I did, i'd still be upset with TLJ because of that. It's being a disservice for even the fans of Force Awaken.
I'm not even gonna get into this part because I've never understood this argument and it's pretty much been disproved over and over. All the plot points that are brought up in TFA are continued and/or resolved in TLJ such as Rey meeting Luke, Finn becoming a full-fledged rebel, Kylo and Rey's relationship, Kylo usurping his master, etc.
Oh really? Show me how this was disproved over and over again. What about the rey handing Anakin's lightsaber to luke? At end of TFA, the last ending shot was meant as something big to come and you the audience is excited for next film to see how rey and luke bond over the connect of that saber. What did Johnson do? AH have Luke throw it over his shoulder into the water for comedic laugh. In TFA, rey was meant to be something more than she is , and Maz obviously hint to rey about her past, her parents, and linage. Johnson decided have Rey's parent were nobodies. Snoke was built to be someone akin to emperor not to mess with, but who is he? how he came to be? Why he so strong? Ah let's kill him him off leaving all those questions fans want invest in, crumble to ground. I could go on.
JeanGreyForever wrote:A quick google search ought to educate you because people more patient than I am can explain the fallacies in your "logic."
This sounds like more like you have no rebuttal against this argument with using the excuse of using "people who have more patient than I" despite spending how long typing out these huge ass paragraph response back at me. You obviously have the time for that.
Fun fact about that was Luke and Leia were never initally were suppose to be siblings. Lucas had plans for episode 7,8,9 in early 80's before working on Jedi. In that concept plans, Luke's sister was someone they haven't met yet. The emperor lived and was able succeed in luring Luke to dark side. It was Luke's mysterious long lost sister that was to journeyed to go find Luke and save him. the Dark Horse comic, Dark Empire, is based on that scrapped storyline lucas had planned. Somewhere along closer to making Jedi, he scrapped idea of making more and just decided to combined Leia and Luke as the siblings.
I'm well aware of this which is why the sequel haters who claim that the problems sprung about from not having one director or clear, coherent plan come across as hypocritical because the OT was created in literally the exact same way. Darth Vader being Luke's father was a last minute change and as you yourself said, Leia was shoehorned in in the final film once it was decided that they wasn't going to be episodes 7, 8, and 9 and Lucas needed to make clear why Yoda said "there is another."[/quote]
I never heard that complaint about not having one director. I didn't mind if they went multiple directors as even OT did that. I do disagree with you saying about "clear, coherent plan come across as hypocritical because the OT was created in literally the exact same way." Yes, OT have few missteps as you mention. But even with those in consideration, the three movies overall felt large coherent. and this was largely that, while yes lucas had other directors and people who help guide him, he was still the overall visionary linchpin that held it together.
JeanGreyForever wrote:I haven't read those novels although like you, I've heard terrible things about them. However, I've never heard about The Mandalorian being a straight adaptation of that. There are some parallels that I think were written in the books to set up the plot in the show, not the other way around.
That's what i'm hearing. Not straight up adaption but a lot of parallels. I'm saying that i wouldn't be surprise if it is a straight up adaptation of that segment of the story.
JeanGreyForever wrote:BTW, The Mandalorian was never supposed to be a Boba Fett spinoff film. This show has been planned for a very long time, whereas the rumored Fett film was cancelled after Solo underperformed (and will probably resurface as a Disney+ streaming show like Obi-Wan Kenobi has been confirmed to). One never replaced the other. In fact, it's general knowledge that The Mandalorian is inspired, if not directly a remake, of Lucas' cancelled live-action TV show, Star Wars: Underworld. In fact, many elements from the new spinoff films and even the sequel trilogy came from what Lucas wanted to introduce in that show if you read the "release and legacy" section in the link below.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Underworld
Yeah I heard about Underworld and was disappointed it never happen. The other one is that video game that got canceled when disney bought Lucasfilm call Star Wars 1313 which was a gritty underworld action adventure game.
Wheew That was a god damn lot to type out. I can't do this anymore. reminds me partly why i don't come on here anymore. All and all, I'm defending my position and view on disney wars and want others know how fans like us feel. I was happy to hear Black Cauldron response and respectively reply. It was good debating with you and glad to debate with someone else who has a good knowledge of Star wars and it's fandom culture. You're free to respond back but I won't be responding back. Just throwing that out there.
BTW, I like your username. I'm a big fan of Jim Lee's 90's Jean Grey and own two statues of her.One by Sideshow and one by Bowen Design. Waiting for the new sideshow one to come in.