DVDizzy Forum

and now back to our regularly scheduled insanity.

Dr. Frankenollie wrote:

ajmrowland wrote: 1. not that kind of test. 2. life's not a classroom designed to over generalize it's students. 3. who said it was fair? 4. ridiculous? i barely believe it but it's not much more ridiculous than the theory of life on other planets in that it involves thinking outside the box1.

I was obviously using that scenario as an example to prove the point that EVERY SINGLE TEST HAS TO BE THE SAME TO BE FAIR. That is a basic scientific principle. It doesn't just apply to tests in classroms-it applies to tests with chemicals and everything else. It doesn't matter if it's a classroom exam or God's fictional test to see which people go to Heaven and which go to Hell, it has to be the same. And besides...how do YOU know what kind of 'test' 'God' does? 2. I know life's not a classroom, but as I said above, I was merely using it as a metaphor to show that EVERY SINGLE TEST HAS TO BE THE SAME TO BE FAIR. 3. IF A TEST ISN'T FAIR THE RESULTS DON'T MATTER. IF A TEST ISN'T FAIR THE RESULTS DON'T MATTER. IF A TEST ISN'T FAIR THE RESULTS DON'T MATTER. THAT IS A BASIC SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE. If the 'test' of 'God' isn't fair, then it doesn't matter what results 'he' gets. 4. Let me be perfectly clear: it's not that I don't think God doesn't exist. There may be a 'God' of some sort, or a 'Creator'. What I'm trying to show is that there can't be the Christian God, and if there is, then he's an unfair, stupid, malevolent jerk who isn't omnipotent in the slightest. And besides, there are kinds of evidence for extraterrestrial lifeforms. For example, there have to be distant planets similar to Earth and thus life most likely can or already has appeared on such planets. Where is the proof that there's a God? Is the proof that a lot of people believe there is? The Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Greeks and Romans all have huge influences over the world today and were some of the most progressive civilisations of all time. However,

well, sorry for being open-minded.

and i think you mistook me for some religious nut. im just philosophical. i dont believe anything without proof, but i do speculate.

and nobody's the same so no test *can* be 100% fair to everyone. common sense.

I suggest you make a set of rules for this thread, ajmrowland or else this thread will be destined to go down in a shit-storm by Duster, Goliath, Frankie, Lazario, etc.

Best make rules to help keep it civilized or else CJ will close this one too.

1. everybody must be open or willing to listen to and consider others views, even if they initially disagree.

2. no sentences or partial-sentences IN ALL CAPS or with more than one exclaimation point.

3. no personal attacks.

Christ, people.

i just made this cuz i had to reply to make my point clear and the "normal" thread's locked.

Semaj, please do not use His name like that. I suppose we can't stop you elsewhere, but to be respectful of other's religions and feelings here, so that we will respect you back.

Disney Duster wrote:Semaj, please do not use His name like that. I suppose we can't stop you elsewhere, but to be respectful of other's religions and feelings here, so that we will respect you back.

Excuse me, but you're the main reason why threads keep getting closed.

Knock it off.

Super Aurora wrote:I suggest you make a set of rules for this thread, ajmrowland or else this thread will be destined to go down in a shit-storm by Duster, Goliath, Frankie, Lazario, etc.

That's waltmad and black pearl's fault. They just had to take the subject of religion to a dark, angry, and judgmental place. I always discussed this topic completely civilly with Duster and, on occasion, Goliath- who never challenged me about this. We pretty much see eye to eye on it.

ajmrowland wrote:well, sorry for being open-minded.

and i think you mistook me for some religious nut. im just philosophical. i dont believe anything without proof, but i do speculate.

and nobody's the same so no test *can* be 100% fair to everyone. common sense.

There's not nothing wrong with open-mindedness; however, there is something wrong with a lack of logic and sense.

It doesn't matter to me whether you're a 'religious nut' or not.

I know that no test can be 100% fair. In fact, thanks for pointing that out; just another point for my side.

ajmrowland wrote:1. everybody must be open or willing to listen to and consider others views, even if they initially disagree.

2. no sentences or partial-sentences IN ALL CAPS or with more than one exclaimation point.

3. no personal attacks.

Could I add one more?

4. If a member is proven to be unequivocally wrong on one point or another, they have to admit it.

Anyway, when it comes to 1, even if I try to be open, I can still point out the flaws in the arguments, right?

As for 2, I'll go along with it, but I might forget and put something in capitals LIKE THIS (!!!!), and if somebody points that out I'll happily edit my inadvertent rule-breaking.

I agree with 3 and have no qualms about it at all.

One more thing: sarcasm is okay, right?

Semaj wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:Semaj, please do not use His name like that. I suppose we can't stop you elsewhere, but to be respectful of other's religions and feelings here, so that we will respect you back.

Excuse me, but you're the main reason why threads keep getting closed.

Knock it off.

Right you are, Semaj, right you are.

I'll now repost my previous points from the original 'What is Normal?' thread, because these points weren't replied to due to the locking by CJ.

Disney Duster wrote:Dr Frankenollie, the tests for everyone isn't supposed to be the same. We all lead different lives.

I know we all lead different lives. What I'm saying is that if 'God' really wanted to test us, then he would do it in a way that would be fair and equal. Yes, I know people end up having all sorts of different ambitions, careers, families and lives, but a more equal way to test us would be to not have evil or misery on Earth whatsoever other than one bad thing that is the same for everyone that happens at least one point in every single human being's life.

For example, everyone on the planet could be knocked over by a car but live and receive the exact same injuries, and their reactions could be used as the results which 'God' could weigh up. Thus, if one person renounced religion after being hit by a car, and another person who was also hit by a car and received the exact same types and number of injuries instead remained loyal to religion, then it would be obvious that the first person was bad and the second person was good.

Obviously, if there is a God, then we've got the crappy and lazy God to hail and praise. A fair God would do something like I did (and I'm not even an adult and yet I could think of a better method for testing), but an unfair God would let a talentless and self-obsessed ass like Paris Hilton become wealthy, while letting a brilliant writer like Oscar Wilde be hated for his sexuality. Wait a minute. Oh, the unfair God is our 'God', right, Duster?

Disney Duster wrote:And yes I can ignore a scientific principle if I don't agree with it or if I just don't think it applies to this subject.

...





...




...







...You've got to be kidding me.


Hey Duster, guess what? Some meanies are saying that Lunos isn't real because Nicompoop, his elephant son sent to Earth to save us all, wrote in the sand of his zoo pen that 2+2=5! Yes, I know that 2+2-4 is a mathematic principle, but hey, so what? I can ignore a mathematical principle if I agree with it or if I just don't think it applies to this subject.

Disney Duster wrote:As for the rest of what you said, haha. But I meant what I said earnestly.

How could you have truly meant what you said? It was nonsensical!

But the thing that really, really, really just maddens me is that you didn't get the point I was making. I was saying that the meaningless stuff that you said could fit anything! You could change every instance of God and Christianity with instances of Lunos and Lunacy, and yet no other alterations would be necessary (well, perhaps besides any other references to Christianity)! You could replace God and Christianity with instances of Cheese and Cheesecake and it would flow just as it flowed originally!

Disney Duster wrote:I really hope you will just relax, let go of perhaps too logical ponderings, and believe. You and I and everyone all know Christianity is different from what you just spat out to reply to me mockingly, even if we couldn't put our finger on or describe the difference and you wouldn't want to find a difference anyway because you don't feel like believing. It's all up to you man, but I wish you would believe in at least the spiritual and good things in Christianity.

Duster, I really hope that you will just relax, let go of perhaps too logical ponderings, and believe in Lunos. You and I and everyone all know that Lunacy (the religion of Lunos) is different from the 'Christianity' stuff that you just spat out to reply to me mockingly, even if we couldn't put our finger on or describe the difference and you wouldn't want to find a difference anyway because you don't feel like believing. It's all up to you man, but I wish you would believe in at least the spiritual and good things in Lunacy.

...You see, Duster? Your words are meaningless. You have no arguments. You just have words that are interchangeable with every other deity and religion on the planet.

Well, I'm still an agnostic Christian since the last thread. ... Not really much else to say...

Now back to the regularly scheduled Rosie O'Donnell v. Elizabeth Hasselbeck-esque face-screen battle to the death. UD Celebrity Deathmatch ftw!

DrFrankenollie, i'm glad we can agree on something. Also, yes, all of those rules and additions are accepted, though no.4...........this is a faith topic after all.

as for the tests, finally we agree, but my high school learning was mostly individualized and that was my argument.

Dr. Frankenollie, you gave such a simple example of a test. You are simplifying things. We don't know eveyrthing about God just like we don't know everything about life. Nobody knows everything. Sure, your theory makes some sense on some level, but it is only a possibility.

I'm sure this is driving you up the wall because you're probably a very logical guy, but illogical things happen all the time, even in humans. There's just more to life than some logical thoughts can sum up, even seemingly very good logical thoughts.

I mean, what if, for instance, some person only needed to be tested once and they were very bad after that, while someone else was tested, was good, and they were tested again to see if they would stay good. That is just a mere thought, it doesn't explain everything, it just gives you an idea of how their could be more out there than something summed up in your thoughts.

Your only real excuse against the idea that God is beyond our full comprehension was that that it "is a copout". But that is an opinion, of you and probably many people, but still an opinion. You're basically trying to prove or disprove why we should believe in religion or why it has to make sense. And none of us right now are saying that it needs to be proven or make complete sense to the limited logical side of our human minds.

If you must have something, some differences between Christianity and the religion you made up is that Christianity has a Bible written and truly, actually believed in by many people over time, that has records of actual historical people, places, and events, and cites God as reasons behind some of those events. Also, your talking of your Lunacy religion is very literal about elephants and moons and sand, but Christianity, and I'm pretty sure all religions, speak of a higher, non-physical, non-literal, spiritual and higher plane that we all feel and comprehend the idea of, though some people, like you, cast it as nonsense because you'd rather be logical or whatever other reason. In other words, you talk about an elephant in the moon and we talk about the thing that created everything, just using terms like "father", "son", and "God" as mere terms to help us understand.

Disney Duster wrote:I'm sure this is driving you up the wall because you're probably a very logical guy, but illogical things happen all the time, even in humans. There's just more to life than some logical thoughts can sum up, even seemingly very good logical thoughts.

See, what I don't really understand about this is how you are more prepared to defend and illogical statement with zero proof, and refute a statement with logical ideas behind it. You could apply your logic to anything and its a cheap excuse for a rebuttal in my opinion.

Disney Duster wrote:I mean, what if, for instance, some person only needed to be tested once and they were very bad after that, while someone else was tested, was good, and they were tested again to see if they would stay good. That is just a mere thought, it doesn't explain everything, it just gives you an idea of how their could be more out there than something summed up in your thoughts.

I really can't understand what you just said, but I do want to point out that (in my opinion, of course) "good" and "bad" are not as defined as you claim them to be. Someone could do something, and it would look 'good' in your eyes but it might seem 'bad' in mine. The only set rules for 'good' and 'bad' are set in religion, and possibly morality to an extent, but even so the lines between good and bad are much more blurred in my opinion. It's more of a gray area.

Disney Duster wrote:Your only real excuse against the idea that God is beyond our full comprehension was that that it "is a copout". But that is an opinion, of you and probably many people, but still an opinion. You're basically trying to prove or disprove why we should believe in religion or why it has to make sense. And none of us right now are saying that it needs to be proven or make complete sense to the limited logical side of our human minds.

I would be interested in hearing the reason you believe in God. Is it the Bible? What proof do you have that God exists?

Disney Duster wrote:If you must have something, some differences between Christianity and the religion you made up is that Christianity has a Bible written and truly, actually believed in by many people over time, that has records of actual historical people, places, and events, and cites God as reasons behind some of those events. Also, your talking of your Lunacy religion is very literal about elephants and moons and sand, but Christianity, and I'm pretty sure all religions, speak of a higher, non-physical, non-literal, spiritual and higher plane that we all feel and comprehend the idea of, though some people, like you, cast it as nonsense because you'd rather be logical or whatever other reason. In other words, you talk about an elephant in the moon and we talk about the thing that created everything, just using terms like "father", "son", and "God" as mere terms to help us understand.

All I could think of while reading this paragraph was that Christianity is actually very similar to many other religions. Native Americans didn't understand nature, so they created stories to make them feel better. The Greeks and Romans and Egyptians were the same way. Now that we have science to give logical explanations for those religions, we think they are silly. Those religions have died because of logical explanations. If science hadn't come along to disprove those religions, they would still be around today (and you very well could be defending Greek Mythology right now because it is "believed by many people" and "speaks of a higher, non-physical, non-literal, spiritual and higher plane").
Its similar to Christianity. Because we don't fully (with concrete evidence) understand how the earth and universe were formed, we created a religion that decided some Being created us. No need to worry about that question any more. Also, we solved the question of "what is the point of life?" People now have a reason to live because of religion.

Religion always has seemed to be an excuse for something, to me. :shrugs:

Lazario wrote:

Super Aurora wrote:I suggest you make a set of rules for this thread, ajmrowland or else this thread will be destined to go down in a shit-storm by Duster, Goliath, Frankie, Lazario, etc.

That's waltmad and black pearl's fault. They just had to take the subject of religion to a dark, angry, and judgmental place. I always discussed this topic completely civilly with Duster and, on occasion, Goliath- who never challenged me about this. We pretty much see eye to eye on it.

Don't remind me of black pearl....that person said I should not call myself a christian since I watched Disney movies that have some super natural magic stuff....or something to that effect. I forget if they left the forums or were kicked out...I wanna say black pearl left.....

On the other hand it did bring me to have a chat about the subject with one of the pastors at my church. He said as long as i'm not bowing down and take it way too far like worshiping movies or don't do any of the dark stuff in it watching movies such as Hellboy or Pirates. My pastor and I talked about it yesterday again. He asked If I was asked to spend a day with god or worship walt disney. It would be god. It's okay to have hobbies, he has hobbies as well such as watching WWE, Listens to music of ac/dc, ozzy osbourne, and watches movies like Kick-Ass and horror films. And he hasn't seen the 10 commandments movie...

I saw Bill Maher's RELIGULOUS last night on TV. Freakin' hysterical....especially the black preacher who justified his wealth by saying that Jesus was rich because the Magi gave him GOLD! You can't make this stuff up!

carolinakid wrote:I saw Bill Maher's RELIGULOUS last night on TV. Freakin' hysterical....especially the black preacher who justified his wealth by saying that Jesus was rich because the Magi gave him GOLD! You can't make this stuff up!

Apparently that preacher was thinking of The Da Vinci Code plot and took it to be what happened in the bible

I have seen the Religulous documentary. Also I like watching Bill Maher on youtube or his site. I do agree that many cultures justify their actions by saying in the name or the Lord to justify their actions which seem questionable...To Which not only are they using Gods Name in Vane. People today do this a lot, though the majority uses Jesus' name and misuse/abuse to just use it as a means to their own selfish end or causes (politics, groups, etc etc,)

For the record I'm a Christian. I have great faith in God....even more since my fiance has been in my life. And I put faith in Jesus always, even when times I don't understand his ways or actions, I have faith in him that everything happens for a reason....which usually when something happens it's not always apparent to what the reason is. we might never know, we might know in 5 years etc etc

Heartless wrote:See, what I don't really understand about this is how you are more prepared to defend and illogical statement with zero proof, and refute a statement with logical ideas behind it. You could apply your logic to anything and its a cheap excuse for a rebuttal in my opinion.

I was applying my, er, "logic"(?) to the subject of logic! lol

Heartless wrote:(in my opinion, of course) "good" and "bad" are not as defined as you claim them to be. Someone could do something, and it would look 'good' in your eyes but it might seem 'bad' in mine. The only set rules for 'good' and 'bad' are set in religion, and possibly morality to an extent, but even so the lines between good and bad are much more blurred in my opinion. It's more of a gray area.

Yes. That is a good opinion. However, the idea is that maybe, there is an objective, true good or evil, known by God or what have you. We all understand the idea of this.

Disney Duster wrote:Your only real excuse against the idea that God is beyond our full comprehension was that that it "is a copout". But that is an opinion, of you and probably many people, but still an opinion. You're basically trying to prove or disprove why we should believe in religion or why it has to make sense. And none of us right now are saying that it needs to be proven or make complete sense to the limited logical side of our human minds.

I would be interested in hearing the reason you believe in God. Is it the Bible? What proof do you have that God exists?[/quote]
Hm? Well, I guess I could say I believe God exists because anything exists at all. Something doesn't come from nothing. Whatever made everything would obviously have to be very powerful, but would probably be somewhat like what was made (as in humans), or have something like what was made in it (so God would be somewhat like humans, or have that human capacity in him). And all this is what I call God.

As for the rest, sure, religions are similar to other religions. Which is cool, as it makes it seem even more likely, as maybe lots of people saw or felt the same parts of the one true religion or something. I am fine with the possible idea of the "being that created everything" informing different cultures of it's religion and each culture giving it different names and experiencing it different ways, etc. But anyway, the theory on creating religion to answer questions is only a theory because no one, no scientist or historian, could actually go back in time and ask people how or why what they believe in started. It is merely a guess. But religion, at least some, like Christianity, is not meant to explain the same things science can explain, physical things like that. It is meant to tell us about the things outside of the physical. The spiritual. And I would also say that the Greek gods were a little more literal and human sounding than the "higher plane" stuff I was talking about lol.

You know what? This is all I have to say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh99A86HraY

Disney Duster wrote: Hm? Well, I guess I could say I believe God exists because anything exists at all. Something doesn't come from nothing. Whatever made everything would obviously have to be very powerful, but would probably be somewhat like what was made (as in humans), or have something like what was made in it (so God would be somewhat like humans, or have that human capacity in him). And all this is what I call God.

What? Why does a creator "probably" have his creations made in his image? You get that from what you've heard, that we are created in God's image. What about all the other creations God created? Animals, plants, space, time?

And yes, something doesn't come from nothing - and since we as humans do not know how we were created, God is the excuse. Christianity gives people a reason to live (because we don't know the reason for life, why we are here, what happens after death).

And you believe God exists because other things exists? What makes GOD the one you believe in? There are many other reasons out there that theorize about how things came to exist. Why do you believe God specifically was this reason?

Disney Duster wrote:But anyway, the theory on creating religion to answer questions is only a theory because no one, no scientist or historian, could actually go back in time and ask people how or why what they believe in started. It is merely a guess. But religion, at least some, like Christianity, is not meant to explain the same things science can explain, physical things like that. It is meant to tell us about the things outside of the physical. The spiritual. And I would also say that the Greek gods were a little more literal and human sounding than the "higher plane" stuff I was talking about lol.

What? We do have proof. It isn't a guess.. It's called history. History is fact. Ancient Greeks and Romans and Egyptians wrote down their beliefs, and drew pictures, and studied astronomy based on religion. They built structures to worship their gods that are still standing today. Native Americans wrote stories about the beings they worship. Native Americans are still around today and some continue the beliefs of their ancestors. How can you say we don't know WHY people had religion in their life thousands of years ago?

And yes, all of those religions were to answer questions that were unknown to them. The same is said for Christianity, really. It answers the questions people have about life. Religion has transcended beyond explaining why the crops grow and what the weather was. Science has proved all that now and thus, the religions are gone. Christianity deals with "spiritual" aspects, sure. So does Buddhism and Hinduism.. it deals with things science cannot explain (like the purpose of life, or what happens after death) and that is why those religions have survived to this day.

Thanks for rebutting some of Duster's statements in his previous post, Heartless.

Disney Duster wrote:

Heartless wrote:See, what I don't really understand about this is how you are more prepared to defend and illogical statement with zero proof, and refute a statement with logical ideas behind it. You could apply your logic to anything and its a cheap excuse for a rebuttal in my opinion.

I was applying my, er, "logic"(?) to the subject of logic! lol

Heartless obviously meant your backwards version of logic when he or she said 'your logic.'

Disney Duster wrote:

Heartless wrote:(in my opinion, of course) "good" and "bad" are not as defined as you claim them to be. Someone could do something, and it would look 'good' in your eyes but it might seem 'bad' in mine. The only set rules for 'good' and 'bad' are set in religion, and possibly morality to an extent, but even so the lines between good and bad are much more blurred in my opinion. It's more of a gray area.

Yes. That is a good opinion. However, the idea is that maybe, there is an objective, true good or evil, known by God or what have you. We all understand the idea of this.

Er...if we 'all understand this', then in your opinion Duster, why are there atheists?

The moral system was made up by us, in a similar way perhaps to how history has been written by the victorius. Our ideas of fairness originated only due to the beliefs of how to live made up by others much time ago. Being a nihilist, I feel that anyone and everyone has the 'right' to do as they please.

Disney Duster wrote:

Heartless wrote: I would be interested in hearing the reason you believe in God. Is it the Bible? What proof do you have that God exists?

Hm? Well, I guess I could say I believe God exists because anything exists at all. Something doesn't come from nothing. Whatever made everything would obviously have to be very powerful, but would probably be somewhat like what was made (as in humans), or have something like what was made in it (so God would be somewhat like humans, or have that human capacity in him). And all this is what I call God.

So if you believe that something couldn't have come from nothing, where do you think 'God' come from?

Disney Duster wrote:As for the rest, sure, religions are similar to other religions. Which is cool, as it makes it seem even more likely, as maybe lots of people saw or felt the same parts of the one true religion or something. I am fine with the possible idea of the "being that created everything" informing different cultures of it's religion and each culture giving it different names and experiencing it different ways, etc. But anyway, the theory on creating religion to answer questions is only a theory because no one, no scientist or historian, could actually go back in time and ask people how or why what they believe in started. It is merely a guess. But religion, at least some, like Christianity, is not meant to explain the same things science can explain, physical things like that. It is meant to tell us about the things outside of the physical. The spiritual. And I would also say that the Greek gods were a little more literal and human sounding than the "higher plane" stuff I was talking about lol.

Imagine a world without religion, a world based on the beliefs of science and, most importantly, rationality and logic alone. Religion was only ever created, if one uses rational ideas, for comfort, to make sense of the universe. Thousands of years ago people were confused and needed something. Something to make sense in their lives; so they made things up. But now, with modern sciences continuing to be improved is religion important anymore?

Religion is not a good thing. It makes people arrogant of their religion, or prejudiced against others. Many of the ideals in Holy Books are severely dated. The real reason that Jews made a religious law against eating pork is because, thousands of years ago, pork and shellfish were filled with contagious parasites. But today’s cleaning of products and knowledge of how to get rid of parasites is so improved then thousands of years ago, this Jewish law is unnecessary.

And I don't know about you, Duster, but I find the core ideas of Christianity - getting down on one's knees and worshipping a God, before 'eating his body' and 'drinking his blood' - more than a little, shall we say, creepy.

Duster, if you offer ANY kind of proof that 'God', specifically the Christian one, does exist, then honestly - I shall listen. But you have to be the one to offer proof. If someone claimed that they could fly, then it would be silly of them to say "Prove I can't fly". They have to prove that they can!