DVDizzy Forum

This topic can be used for ageism from any perspective--for the elderly, or so on. It’s a subject that rarely gets serious discussion, and usually evokes eye-rolls (not another -ism!), but it‘s one that is ripe for a dialogue. Age is a factor that affects how we treat, interact, and judge one another, just like anything else. What I’ve written below is only some of my thoughts on the subject from a more youth-centered perspective.

First, I want to be clear this isn‘t an attack directed at anyone in particular. I was only reading the Belle vs. Ariel debate and it reminded me of a lot of comments I’ve read over the years, so this subject goes up and beyond any one thread or post and beyond the '90s Disney heroines even. I had actually thought about posting it there, but besides being off-topic I also thought it deserved its own thread, mostly because I’m very passionate about the subject.

Getting right to it: I’ve always found the term “spoiled brat”--which comes up often around discussions of Ariel (and, in some cases, Jasmine and Belle, too)--an extremely degrading, ageist term. I know that I’m in the minority, since it has common usage among those “more mature” (usually, old[er]) people. Only recently, Haley Reinhart on American Idol got some very immature comments on a bunch of websites from a large number of grown adults because they thought she was a spoiled b*tch (exact words, with some worse) all based on her facial expressions--which I find very sad indeed.

That term in particular has always implied to me that children (no matter what age--5, 25, 50) should be in a perpetual state of gratitude no matter what their parents give or--more often--don’t give them. And if they dare say one disobedient word--or apparently make a disobedient face (:lol: )--they’re instantly an unforgivable, ungrateful, spoiled brat whose problems are "overdramatized whining." How dare those silly little children dare to be more than insert-the-blank to fulfill their parents’ wishes--be seen and not heard--rather than fawn over how wonderful their parents are--because all parents are immediately deserving of respect!

All I can say is I have never called a child that--and I never will, no matter how “difficult” or angry they might be, or appear to be to those who don‘t want to understand the issues their dealing with (and they are difficult ones--not childish or less important because they are a child's problems). Despite their age, they have lives, feelings, and thoughts that may or may not be “obedient” to the “mature” people around them, and that‘s not silly at all.

I wanted to unpack what that expression means to me, because it‘s a loaded one. One of my Education classes also made me think more about getting to what’s behind ideas/statements/beliefs.

Before someone typecasts me as [someone who would be] one of those lax, Democrat, liberal parents who let their children do whatever--I do believe in boundaries, rules, etc. I don’t believe in strict/blind obedience; I don‘t believe in breeding drones; and I don‘t believe a child ever “owes” a parent anything--considering the parent is the one who decided to have/raise the child, and that experience alone is something worthwhile. I have the least respect for people who don‘t take their roles as parents--or how they treat their children--seriously.

I know, for myself, I would be extremely grateful to have the chance to raise a child, so the treatment of children/teenagers has always been important to me. Maybe it’s my experience as a gay man who can’t honestly have children at the drop of a dime that makes them more valuable to me than the average person who can simply have a one-off with somebody and thus have the instantaneous right to raise a child. It could also be that I’ll be a licensed high school teacher in a year, and I want--and I’ve learned--that you can’t “reach” someone by belittling or diminishing them. They need to be treated, on some level, as equals who have a right to respect--because we are all living and breathing people regardless of our age.

For me, children are only miniature human beings, and no matter how much they still need to learn and grow, they should be respected just like any other person on this earth. And, yes, that includes those “difficult” teenagers. We always hear people preach about respect for elders--how about a little respect for the children for once?

Off my soap box now. It was a bit preachy up there.

Feel free to respond, or talk about other ageist issues. For the elderly, there are a wide range of them (I‘m guessing dvdjunkie will have some views), but the other side rarely gets any limelight so I went for it. After this essay-post and the dash-spamming, I'm not expecting many responses. This is why I don't make threads often.

Thank you for the soap box to stand on about this "age" thing that I get accused of throwing around so much, maybe after this you will understand more about me and see where I come from.

Let's start at the beginning, I was born on the snack bar floor of my Mom and Dad's movie theater in El Centro, California on a hot July afternoon in 1940.. I was to be the oldest of eleven kids (8 boys, three girls) and so a lot of responsibility was handed to me at an early age. My sister, Elizabeth, was born two years later, just afterward my father got called into the service of our country for the US Army.

My Dad always, after coming home from the war, made sure that us kids always had what we needed to get by. On my fifth birthday, I got a red Radio Flyer wagon and I was king of the neighborhood.

In 1947 my brother, Dennis, was an early Christmas present. We then lived in Los Angeles, California. Back then soda pop was only sold in bottles, and there was a 2 cent deposit on them, so as kids we used to go around the neighborhood finding bottles and taking them into the corner grocery store to get some money. My fondest memory was that I used to use this money to play the jukebox in the local ice cream parlor and my folks made sure that when they changed the music in the juke box that I was told, so that I wouldn't waste my money on a song I didn't know.

As my other brothers and sisters came into this world my Dad began working two full-time jobs and my Mom was a stay-at-home mother. By the time I was in Junior High School (grades 7, 8, and 9 - I believe they call it middle school today) I had a two paper routes. I in the early morning hours and one right after school. My Dad would get me up at 3:30 in the morning to do my morning paper route, and my Mom would have my papers folded and packed, ready for me to take on my after-school route. I made about $150 a month, which was a lot of money then, because going to the movie theater only cost 25 cents and that included free popcorn.

My Dad made a deal with me, if I rode my bike to High School for the 10th and 11th grades, I would get a car to drive for my 12th year in school. I was bullied and picked on by kids who rode the school buses, but I insisted on riding my bicycle to school those two years.

I played on the "B" squad (I think they call it Jayvee today) of our football team and also played baseball. I was better at baseball, so I dropped the football thing after the 10th grade.

It is amazing how many friends I suddenly had when I got my car to drive to school for my senior year. It was a '49 Ford convertible and it was then that I leanned a quick lesson in life, 'I picked my friends, my friends didn't pick me', or something to that way of thinking. Some of those who were responsible for sending me home in tears after school for all the torment I got while riding my bike, all of a sudden were my best friends. Of course, that didn't work, and only those who supported me through those trials and tribulations were lucky to ride to and from school with me.

While growing up in such a large family, one thing was always made clear to me. Dad worked two jobs during the week, but the weekends were reserved for "family things" - no ifs, no ands, no buts. We always had to clear any weekend plans we had with Mom and Dad first, and with their approval we could do something outside of the family, but that didn't happen very often. My folks understood what it was about growing up and were always there for all of us. We earned our own money, and were shown how to save it, by opening up a savings account at the bank. We were taught how to save up for that particular item we wanted that couldn't be provided because of the expense. My folks were always quick to offer to share the expense of a new bike, or new suit, or new dress, or whatever was the need. We leaned to earn our allowance at home by doing little things to help out.

Doing dishes was rotated among us older kids, and we had a chart on the wall with a daily list of things needed to be done, and we could sign up for those to earn extra money. I used to always want to mow the lawns, front and back yard, because it paid the most - $1.50. This would be in addition to the money I made on my paper route, I gave up the afternoon route when I graduated from Junior High School.

You need to remember, people didn't have televisions back then. They were a luxury. Besides there weren't a whole lot of programs on during the day, so I spend any free time I had listening to the radio, or playing records in my room on a record player that I bought with my savings.

The words "spoiled brat" were never something our family heard. We all earned what we had, but there were some kids that were only children in a family, and of course they were doted on hand and foot. Those were the "spoiled" ones, who always made fun of us when we rode our bikes to school or when we couldn't go to the movies because it was family outing day.

When I had a girlfriend in my senior year of high school, my folks understood that I wanted to have time on Friday or Saturday, but many times they would contact my girlfriends parents and ask if she could come along on our family outings. So it was always nice to know that they knew that I had something else to do in my growing years.

I always was taught when I wanted something, I could go earn the money to get it. When I saw a car that I wanted, my Dad would always find a way to make it easier on me to have it, by offering my extra work around the house, or even helping me find a part-time job while I was in Jr. College.

While I was growing up, it was family first, then me, second. I have always passed that along to my kids as they were growing up. My wife and I raised our kids, or at least made an effort to, the same way we were raised. When our kids were old enough, they were placed on a basic allowance schedule with certain things to do around the house. An 'extras' board was placed in the kitchen where the kids could pick something they wanted to do to earn extra money. Of course, with the times, money was a idfferent object. Most of the extra chores paid as much as $5 extra, if they did the front and back lawns, it was $5 each.

As our kids grew, we still maintained that the weekends were for family, and with permission they could do something else, as with the twins, they always had something going, and when they finally got to High School we found it harder and harder to do things as a family, but we always tried.

Today, as a Grandfather of 10 wonderful grandkids (5 girls, 5 boys) I try to keep up with what is going on. Our son and twin daughters are always thanking us for being there when they were growing up, and are trying to raise their kids with same family values that they had and we had as we were growing up.

Today, when I hear about kids telling their parents they want this or that, it really irks me, because I know how I was raised. If more parents raised their kids today like we raised ours and are helping with our grand children there would probably be less strife. When I see kids, and I am talking about 16 and 17 years old driving cars better than their parents because if they didn't have them they wouldn't have any friends, I question how they were raised. I wonder if they have jobs. I wonder if they are 'mooching' off Mom and Dad when they could be working their way through college or trade school or whatever it is they choose.

I am always there to help our kids with our grand kids when it comes to explaining why they can't have certain things without earning them. That is the way I was raised and that is how my kids were raised and they are trying to raise our grand children the same way.

When I read here on the forums how someone has asked their parents to buy a Blu-ray player or a 'bigger' television, it makes me wonder why they don't offer to do something to earn the extra money to help get that bigger TV or that state-of-the-art Blu-ray player or computer or Laptop, or whatever.

We have a family in our neighborhood who's two oldest sons, Todd and Brett, 14 and 15 respectively, mow our lawns for $20 a week. We have a great looking yard because of them and I know that $20 is being used wisely by them. They are the oldest of seven kids, and in these times Mom and Dad are "not" made of money and have shown these kids that there is no tree in the back yard where money grows.

Once in a while I have to take my two oldest grandkids out to the back yard as show them the same thing. They are only 12 and 11, but both are girls and they both want to look like 'princesses', so we have offered them a way to earn extra money so they can.

It is my firm belief that most of today's parents are too busy working, and just throw money at their kids to keep them quiet, and when the police come around, wonder where did they go wrong. I wish there were more families like ours, and wish that more "kids" realized what the words "Family Values" mean. Most 'kids' here on UD come across as those who have not been taught to respect their elders, and who can't take any criticism because they think they are perfect or better than the next person.

While I am sitting here writing this I can look up on the wall and see my favorite saying, among many: "People who tell you where today's Teenagers are going - Will do well to consider where they came from".

We all (me included) need to think about that. I hope that you all now understand where this 'grumpy old man' is coming from, and why I am so critical, at times, of some of the kids here on the UD forums. It just all about how I was raised, and how I respect my Mom and Dad (my Dad passed away a few years ago at the age of 93), and I just recently placed my Mom in a home for the treatment of Alzheimer's patients. I love her to the end, and will always cherish her smiles and always will be her "little Billy bounce"!!!

Hmm . . . I'm not really sure where to start here, as I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't think I've ever had anything handed to me with the way I was raised and the kinds of experiences I had once I became an adult. I'm not yet a parent, but I love spending time with children. The majority of my closest friends have not been my age; my two best friends in high school were four years younger and three years older than me. There was a seven year gap between my ex and I, and now a ten year gap between me and my husband. And to be honest I don't think I've personally experienced much when it comes to ageism. Sexism and other discriminations, definitely. But not to say that it isn't an issue. Maybe I've just had an easier time since people have a hard time guessing my age to begin with.

The thing is, I don't believe generations have changed all that much, in that there's always people that are spoiled and there's always people that have had to work hard for everything. What we're given to work with really does affect the appreciation we have for our lives and everyone around us. And people will always be treated unfairly by those who make assumptions about gender, race, sexual orientation, appearance, and of course, even age.

I will complain about spoiled brats all I like, simply for the fact that being a spoiled brat knows no boundaries when it comes to age! Being young and inexperienced doesn't automatically dictate the amount of appreciation one has for life one way or the other, and being older shouldn't automatically grant someone respect. I lived with a spoiled brat for a few years, one who expected to have everything handed to him. And to be honest, I don't think I paid much attention to his type until I had to deal with it in person on a daily basis. Children fall under a different category in my opinion; I'm not going to run around pointing fingers at them since their minds are still in development.

I belong to a TOPS group, and interestingly enough, ageism was the subject of one of our recent meetings. I'm actually the youngest one there; most of the members are ladies in their 50's and beyond. They were discussing how hard it is to be taken seriously at times, especially when it comes to the work place. People often get condescending in thinking that they're automatically old-fashioned and incapable, but I'd like to think I treat them like sisters.

@ enigmawing: What's a TOPS group?

dvdjunkie wrote:It is my firm belief that most of today's parents are too busy working, and just throw money at their kids to keep them quiet, and when the police come around, wonder where did they go wrong. I wish there were more families like ours, and wish that more "kids" realized what the words "Family Values" mean. Most 'kids' here on UD come across as those who have not been taught to respect their elders, and who can't take any criticism because they think they are perfect or better than the next person.

Well, most parents today *have* to be busy working all the time, because they can't pay the bills otherwise. The times that only the father had to have a job and mother could stay at home are over. Your father had two jobs, but I'm sure if he had only two kids, one job would've been enough. It's not like that anymore. I've read a lot in the past few years about how inceasingly more people in the US have to work two jobs or sometimes even three jobs to make a living --and sometimes *that's* not even enough! They're being called 'the working poor' (and they have taken all the hits in the economic crisis).

I vividly remember when I saw a poor single mom telling then-president Bush how she had to work three (!) jobs to pay the bills, and how Bush grinned at proudly said: "now that's the American way!" I also remember how I saw, in Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine, how many kids grow up without their parents (often single moms, when dad has run out) because they're always out working. Examples were cited when young kids were being left unguarded and created tragedies, like a very young boy who found a gun laying around and shot a girl dead.

Yet it are always the 'family values' politicians who want to further cut the social security system; vote against raising the minimum wage; don't want government to help out families paying for their children's education etc.

Oh, and one reminder: complaining about 'kids today' has been of all times:

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
- Plato

Goliath wrote:@ enigmawing: What's a TOPS group?

Take Off Pounds Sensibly, a nation-wide non-for-profit organization, organized through local chapters. Besides discussing nutrition, we have programs on eating disorders, body image, self-esteem, media imagery, various prejudicial views, and other related subjects. Which might explain the kinds of things I tend to go on about at times in other threads.

* * *

And yes, "these kids today." As I tried to mention in my previous post, generations never really change.

enigmawing wrote:
The thing is, I don't believe generations have changed all that much, in that there's always people that are spoiled and there's always people that have had to work hard for everything. What we're given to work with really does affect the appreciation we have for our lives and everyone around us. And people will always be treated unfairly by those who make assumptions about gender, race, sexual orientation, appearance, and of course, even age.

The phrase "Walk a mile in another man's shoes" comes to mind. I think I can agree with what you've said there enigmawing, for the most part.

That said, I do believe that each generation deals with different things, different issues, and generations behind or ahead of you won't get your generation. I do think today's generation of younger adults has it easier in many ways. But, if you compare the generations older then today's from the last 100 years, the argument could be used that each of those generations had it easier then ones from the 1800 or 1700's.

It's what you are used to. I'm in my late 20's and work at a high school right now. I never would have had a cell phone when I was in high school and when I see a number of these kids driving nicer cars then I probably ever will in my whole life, I admit, the word "spoiled" does enter my mind at times. Especially when I hear many of these kids skip past "thank you" and go right to "what else do you have for me?"

But, I want to be careful not to generalize. Not everyone who is young is "spoiled" any more then everyone who is older isn't. And while in the past, generations had it harder when it came to work being more physical, I think today's generation more then not is based on more mental strenuous work. So which is harder? That is pure opinion me thinks.

But, I also think this is a big issue. Folks that are both younger and older many times treat each other like crap becuase of their station in life. Which is really silly, as every old person once was young, and the idea is that every young person will live long enough to be old. It's not right that a kid walks into a store and is instantly looked at by the sales associates and manager as a thief to-be and they haven't even stolen anything. It's also not fair that a worker with a hard work ethic and years of company loyalty and on the job experience is canned for the young intern just becuase the worker is older or even middle aged!

It makes me think of this song and why it was written in the first place:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uGDA0Hecw1k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I think how we treat people says a lot about who we are. All of us at some point have treated someone in a way that maybe wasn't the nicest. The hope is that we have fewer moment like then then not. Both youth and old age have their strengths and weaknesses. If, as a society, we work together, we can learn to work as a team and lessen the weaknesses and build upon the strengths.

Much like Divinity's first post, mine will too be from a younger persons perspective.

One ageism issue that is very prominent to me is ageism against teenagers. Obviously, this is because I am one.

I think that there are more than a few adults that think all teenagers are moody, dangerous, and trouble. If I go into the mall with a few friends, and we enter a store, the attendant immediately comes to our side, and doesn't leave us alone until we leave the store, because they're afraid we're going to shoplift. Of course some teenagers steal, just like any other age. In fact, the elderly are the leading cause of shoplifting.

A couple of months ago, I was at the mall with friends when I saw some people I knew eating at the food court. We went over to talk to them, and after a few minutes, a policeman came over and told us that we had to move because we were 'displaying inappropriate behavior', only by standing in the food court. Now there were plenty of adults standing in the food court, but they were apparently behaving appropriately.

Something else that bothers me even more than the things mentioned above, is how my beliefs, whether they be on religion, or in a debate, or about what I want in life, don't matter, because I'm a teenager. I'm very sick of hearing from my Catholic family that I'm going through a 'phase', and one day will wake up and see the light, and I suddenly won't be agnostic anymore. They seem to think that I only believe these things because of my age, and not because it's what I truly feel. Now, I'm not so naive as to say that there isn't the slightest chance I might change my opinion is later years, but it angers me that people have actually told me that I will change. And when I asked them how they know that, they replied by saying, 'you're a teenager, and you can't know what you're feeling.'

All teenagers are not 'moody', 'misunderstood' or 'confused'. Believe it or not, some of us did not morph into different people when we turned 13. Not all of us are so overrun with raging hormones that we turn into delinquents who don't understand our own emotions or thoughts, and who can't be civil to other human beings.

Okay, So I was born in a hospital in Toronto on July 12th, 1990. My Dad at the time made chocolate for Nabisco(or.....idunno). My mom was stay-at-home, and I have a sister about 3 3/4 years older than me. A When I was two years old, I tripped on something. it was a log, from what I'm told. Or a step. Very early life. My nose was broken, and it remained that way until 2009 when I had my rhino-plasty. In January of '93, we moved from our house in oakville to Appleton, Wisconsin. Still live in that exact house.

tbc